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stewbabby
Apr 25, 2002, 12:20 PM
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if you are not from the south and come to the area please dont judge the rest of us on the mess that you will see at sandrock. this place has ben retro bolted and reretro bolted. the gym rats descovered spandex and bosch and destroyed a great crag. sorry if you hate me for this post, but deep down in your heart you know that i am right.
stew
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stewbabby
Apr 25, 2002, 12:56 PM
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ok, is this type of behavior accepted around the world? i know that there a few of us here in the south that will not tolerate tis type of behavior. NO LEADABLE TRAD LINE SHOULD BE BOLTED. and the south's quality sandstone is having holes drilled into it because gumbies dont have the gonads to lead the routes on gear, so they use there spiffy little draws. i wont even go to sandrock anymore because it makes me sick. ultra classic routes that have been littered with bolts. dont get me wrong there are some leggit sport routes that are classic, haditaka sizuki (sp?) has a 13 there is really cool and there are some others that are great, but the lack of ethics that has taken over the "sport climbing community" down here is unbelievable. is it this bad everywhere???????????
stew
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addiroids
Apr 25, 2002, 1:09 PM
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I notice in your Profile that you enjoy guns. Well, have you heard the saying that a southerner's rack includes "large caliber ammo"? Get down there, grab the crowbar, and CHOP CHOP!!
For a further explanation of the situation, see the below website and click on BACK ISSUES. Read them all.
www.mindspring.com/~bjfaber/index.html
I will also contact someone on this site familiar with the situation who can help you.
TRADitionally yours,
Cali Dirtbag
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stewbabby
Apr 25, 2002, 1:14 PM
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hey man dont worry too much there are a few pipe swingers in the south, but this place has enough bolts to keep an army busy for years, it may be a lost crag now. maybee they will stay there and leave some of the other spots alone. you need to come lead some sandstone sometime man. its like nothing you have ever seen.
stew
ps my rack does include a hand gun.
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darkside
Apr 25, 2002, 1:34 PM
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You know, of course it is wrong and shouldn't be allowed. Guys just shouldn't be wearing spandex. Shoot 'em.
Oh and bolting gear lines isn't cool either!!
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hardcoredana
Apr 25, 2002, 2:42 PM
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But what about the girls? Can we still wear spandex?
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melonhead
Apr 25, 2002, 3:03 PM
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O.K., first off. (Mentioned above). Trad routes are not bolted in the south??? F'ing BS!!!!!!!!!! I did a route, a CRACK, that was bolted. It could have been done with gear....easily. PERIOD!! Second, and most important. Yes, you girls should wear spandex. I mean, that's what makes going to the crag even better!!!!!
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darkside
Apr 25, 2002, 3:29 PM
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Yes T.
Guys in spandex = bad
Girls in spandex = GOOD
Fat chicks in spandex = not good
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stewbabby
Apr 25, 2002, 3:45 PM
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melonhead, i am unclear as to the meaning of your post. are you saying that there are or are not trad lines in the south that have been bolted? if you are saying that they dont exist i can send you a long list. please clarify! now if you are saying that you have done a crack with bolts beside it here in the south, please let me know where and we will get someone rectify this problem asap.
and as to the question of females in spandex i would have to agree that this is a good thing.
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stewbabby
Apr 26, 2002, 8:47 AM
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ok i know of our problems with retro bolting in the south and how some of us handle it. but my question is still out there. do you guys have the same problem out west, up north, over seas? if so do you guys chop bolts to rectify the problem or is that a southern thing too? also do yall (sorry im from alabama) even view retro bolting of trad lines as a bad thing.
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killclimbz
Apr 26, 2002, 9:25 AM
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For the most part we don't have the problems you are describing in Colorado. There been some flap about Sport Park, but it was never an area tradies liked to climb at anyway. Steve Dieckhoff chopped some routes in Boulder Canyon over the past year. The last problem area was Turkey Rocks. Some idiots tried to put in some sport routes in what is a trad area. They got chopped and the drillers decided (eventually) to quit trying to bolt the place. Sure, there are some bolted cracks around here, but only (as far as I know) at areas that are just sport climbing spots anyway. I haven't heard of people trying to bolt up trad lines since the "dolt" wars of the late 80's early 90's.
Maybe this will help answer your question.
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fo_d
Apr 26, 2002, 9:50 AM
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OK, chop them bolts and then you need to address the real problem here, Men in spanmdex. I thought that was illegal in the south, isnt that a hangin offense?
Les
P.S. Freinds dont let freinds wear spandex.
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stewbabby
Apr 26, 2002, 10:55 AM
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actually the south is having to become more and more pc. i actually saw a guy in a full body spandex body getup ( you know like a gymnaist or a competition swimmer or skier) but i agree men in spandex is enough reason to stay away from a crag.
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southernbygrace
Jan 13, 2003, 7:43 AM
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OK, so here is the way EVERYONE should treat this bolt/trad problem: If your 'favorite' trad climb has permanent anchores next to it, so what? Use your trad protection anyways. Remember the days when you were first learning how to place gear? Remember a placement that was extremely sketchy, and probably wouldn't have held to save your life? Well, a lot of rednecks go climbing at Sand Rock and don't have the common sense, knowledge, or money to use trad gear, so quickdraws are the best alternative. As far as I know, it is near impossible to place a hanger inside a crack where you would place a cam or nut, so why does having the sport hangers affect your macho trad climbing anyways? PLEASE don't cut off any bolts!! For those of us who are not very comfortable placing gear yet, those bolts are a blessing from God. I just hope we all can compromise and come to the realization that just because those bolts are there, it doesn't mean that you HAVE to use them. On a personal note, I think it is much, much, much better for the sport that those anchors are there. This area gets a lot of climbing traffic by the experienced and by the unexperienced. There are probably many instances where a fall, if taken on poorly placed trad gear (due to inexperience) would have probably ended in severe injury, but instead just resulted in a sore back because the climber was using quickdraws and bolts. I think bolting helps us all in that it saves inesperienced people from injury, and it provides a cheaper alternative for those of us who can't afford a full rack. Thanks for reading my rant/rave, please reply with your opinion too.
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ljthawk
Jan 13, 2003, 8:14 AM
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Stew, are you bored or something? Hey, coming to Buzad Point this weekend?
In response to
Quote:Well, a lot of rednecks go climbing at Sand Rock and don't have the common sense, knowledge, or money to use trad gear, so quickdraws are the best alternative.
The answer to that is Darwin's natural selection.
L.J.
http://www.seclimbers.org
[ This Message was edited by: ljthawk on 2003-01-13 08:14 ]
[ This Message was edited by: ljthawk on 2003-01-13 08:15 ]
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darkside
Jan 14, 2003, 8:49 AM
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Wow, this topic got resurrected. I still say men in spandex is blindingly wrong
southernbygrace: you yourself call this a "bolt/trad problem" but the real problem is a lack of understanding of trad ethics by people with drills. You also asked for opinions so here is mine. It is not meant as any sort of slur or flame though.
-On the basis of "minimum impact" using traditional gear where possible fits the bill. I have done routes though where gear placements were not possible at some point and finding a single bolt in such a section can make it reasonably safer. This does leave an impact though but is the compromise that most people accept. Placing bolts where gear placements are available is NOT a compromise.
-On the basis of respecting the first ascentionist, bolts should not be added without the FA being consulted.
-Why does an area have to be considered "trad" or "sport"? should this not depend on the protection available on each individual route?
-A well bolted sport route can be a real joy and the majority of people who climb trad also enjoy sport routes too.
-I, like most who climb trad, couldn't afford to go out and buy a rack and so it was assembled a little at a time. Poverty is not a reason to hock the ethics.
-Safety margins on trad routes comes from becoming solid at each grade as you progress, being capable of backing off, and knowing enough to make good gear placements. Climbing is inherently dangerous, have you not read any gear tags, guide books, web site disclaimers, or climbing magazines. Risk management is about what you can handle and is not a reason to bolt the snot out of the rock to stop yourself from crying to mummy. Some would call this raising your climbing to the level of the rock and not bringing the rock down to your level.
-I, like many who climb trad, followed the "apprentice system" and paid my dues. I started on TR, followed other more experienced climbers on gear, learnt to lead on bolts, built technique and strength, took couses and read as much as I could to learn, then...... dropped several grades below my onsight ability to start leading trad.
This may all sound like an elitist attitude, IT IS. Trad climbing is not for everyone, it is a huge head game that some people simply have no desire to play. There is nothing wrong with that.
The alternative for those folks however is not to bolt everything. There are many bolted routes around. Nobody will ever be able to climb all the bolted routes that abound, there are simply too many. Note that to climb lower grades sometimes you have to hit the road for new stuff.
Ahhhh, the roadtrip, an adventure in itself.
Other alternatives are to climb with a friend who has a rack, follow a trad climber, climb a trad route on TR, go bouldering.
Did this sound like a flame, then I apologise. Did this sound like a rant, well it was. I hear skewed arguments like this (usually from beginners who don't want to pay their dues) every now and again, and to be honest it annoys me. Bolting everything goes against ethics and the very history and legacy of the adventureous nature of climbing.
At the same time, those against bolts also annoy me. MANY classic and beautiful routes would exist only as X rated or free solo routes because of the lack of natural pro were it not for bolts.
I may consider the head game of trad to be the darker side, and prefer that, but do not climb that exclusively. This past new years I climbed at El Potrero Chico and never even packed my rack. One day while climbing a great 5.9+ bolted crack line I happily clipped every bolt, but would much rather have had a rack with me, the route would have been so much more fulfilling.
Climb safe,
have fun,
pay your dues.
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montgomerywick
Jan 14, 2003, 9:14 AM
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Registered: Oct 31, 2002
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stu, you know it takes a real man to wear spandex...
g
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climblouisiana
Jan 14, 2003, 11:15 AM
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Placing bolts by protectable cracks is especially lame if someone has previously climbed the route using only gear.
Adding bolts to an otherwise protectable climb diminishes the experience.
Do you think it would be cool if someone drilled buckets into every climb with the argument that you could use the original hold and not use the bucket?
please chop.
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darkside
Jan 14, 2003, 10:50 PM
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Or how about just bolting a ladder next to the crack along with the bolts so when the newbie reaches the crux, they can get past it.
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