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ksolem
Jul 7, 2004, 12:34 AM
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I just returned from several days of great rock climbing at Courtright Reservoir, here in California. This is an area I know quite well, as I have been a "regular" there since the 1980's. During these years I have climbed many of the areas best routes and done a number of first ascents. My point is that I am very familiar with this beautiful place and it's climbing history, and it grieves me to see the senseless proliferation of unnecessary bolting which is going on there today.
Example: There is a crack climb up a corner on trapper dome, perhaps 5.10d or so in difficulty, which ends on the ledge where several routes including War Dance, Mommy's Little Monster, and Orgasm Addict begin. Although this climb was omitted from the guide book, it has been climbed with traditional gear many times over the years. I did it in about 1992. Ron Carson and Vaino Kodas did it before that. I think it was called Silver Powder and was an excellent short lead. All of a sudden it has sprouted 6 bolts (in 50 feet!)
Example: Also on Trapper Dome low angle slabs which would be class 4 in the mountains are now bolted. Last Sunday I saw a man walking down a route in sneakers unroped which has 10 or so bolts to a fixed anchor.
Example: Two of Power Domes classic routes are The Paraclete and Aplodontia. Someone saw fit to jam a new line, resplendent with more bolts than these other two routes combined, between them. A classic squeeze job if I ever saw one. This in an area where with a little looking around and creativity one can still find many golden opportunities for great new routes.
Example: The Tiger Cage now has a bolted face climb 6 feet to the left of the classic 5.8 crack. The last bolt on this "route" is about 3 feet from the crack!
I know from conversations with several other climbers that I am not the only person who considers this sort of bolting to be nothing less than vandalism. Please, whoever you are, get to know an area before you bring your Bosch drill in. Find out who's done what and don't bolt lines which have been led, can be protected with gear, are squeeze jobs, or can be hiked in sneakers....
From now on I guess I have to include a crowbar in my kit for Courtright.
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boltdude
Jul 7, 2004, 12:56 AM
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Hey Kris, whatever the route is next to Paraclete, it must have appeared since 8/17/02, John Barbella & I replaced bolts on Paraclete then (while Matt Schutz & Daniel Harrison replaced Zorro Zone, and Barry Chambers & René Ardesch replaced Giving Spencer Tracy). Didn't see any tightly-bolted anything near Paraclete.
Those bolts on the corner on Trapper Dome were there then, pretty ugly.
The ten-bolt walk-up on the far right of Trapper is "Drill Instructor," 5.4, page 131 of the Sequoia/Kings guide, and we replaced the 1/4" bolts on that one in 2002. Yeah, it's a total cake walk-up, but the bolts were bad (they used silicone which just acclerated the rusting, bolts popped easy) and it's an established route with FA info in the guide (Gerry Cox, Keith Guillot, 6/92).
There's plenty of perfectly well bolted routes there already, in general one of the best-protected areas in CA. Hope the bolt frenzy chills out.
Thanks for your replacement work Kris - Greg
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tim
Jul 7, 2004, 1:08 AM
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That kind of sucks. It probably has something to do with the relatively undocumented nature of some routes up there, but still, it's unimpressive. I linked your topic to the area in the RoutesDB, so hopefully it will help to get the word out that, yes, people have been climbing at Courtright for a while, and no, not every climb needs a bucket of shiny new bolts dumped into it ;-)
I'm looking forward to making it up to Courtright later this summer (blew off a planned trip up there to climb Sun Ribbon Arete on Temple Crag -- seemed like a reasonable decision) and while I'm not opposed to bolts, it would be nice to think that I was climbing most of the routes in their original state of 'spiciness' (if that makes any sense at all). IIRC, Dick Leversee and Herb Laeger and many of the other FA'ists in the western Sierra have been amenable to bolt replacement and even some retrobolting, provided that the first ascent party is involved. The last thing the southern Sierra areas need is a North Conway or JTree style bolt war. (*sigh*)
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tigerbythetail
Jul 7, 2004, 2:47 AM
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Cool, free hangers! I'm so there...
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roughster
Jul 7, 2004, 3:35 AM
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In reply to: Please, whoever you are, get to know an area before you bring your Bosch drill in.
Personally I think it might be the "Hilti Guys". They always seem to bolt everything in sight ;)
In reply to: Find out who's done what and don't bolt lines which have been led, can be protected with gear, are squeeze jobs, or can be hiked in sneakers.... From now on I guess I have to include a crowbar in my kit for Courtright.
The finding out of who's done what is great advice, as well as the bolted cracks, squeeze jobs, etc... However!
Instead of crowbaring/stripping the routes, you would be better served most likely trying to facilitate discussion with the responsible parties rather than start a war over the issue. Most likely they will be willing to listen and maybe you can prevent future problems, instead of just giving them the fuel and anger to just rebolt with bigger better bolts + epoxy.
In the process of you, then them, then you, then them messing with bolts, the rock is permanently turned into a war zone complete with "bullet holes". Sounds like your requests are reasonable and I would agree that there is a lot of rock in that area that could be developed instead of squeezing in on old lines or rebolting previously led routes. I would guess that a positive solution could be had instead of turning this into another senseless and stupid bolt war.
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roughster
Jul 7, 2004, 3:35 AM
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roughster moved this thread from General to Regional Discussions.
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roughster
Jul 7, 2004, 3:47 AM
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In reply to: Cool, free hangers! I'm so there...
Remember Chris, those who steal from others, shouldn't bat an eye when the favor is returned. I am rapidly running out of hangers for DTSA, but I will be in SoCal soon enough. Perhaps I can restock at Holcomb and Keller? :lol:
That is a joke, but I think you should rethink your post. I have nothing to do with the Courtright scene, but I am vehemently against hanger stripping of any kind, let alone from a non-local. There is always a better solution than just mindless stealing. And yes, that is what hanger stripping is, stealing.
A certain retro bolted route at Keller Peak comes to mind that used to be a highball boulder problem I sent up years ago....
http://www.rockclimbing.com/...p.cgi?Detailed=12189
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tigerbythetail
Jul 7, 2004, 4:04 AM
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In reply to: Perhaps I can restock at Holcomb and Keller?
Sure Aaron, no guarantee you'll make it home to the wifey though...HAHAHAHHAHAHAHA
In reply to: That is a joke, but I think you should rethink your post. I have nothing to do with the Courtright scene, but I am vehemently against hanger stripping of any kind, let alone from a non-local. There is always a better solution than just mindless stealing. And yes, that is what hanger stripping is, stealing.
Oh good, you do have a sense of humor, sometimes you make me wonder...
In reply to: A certain retro bolted route at Keller Peak comes to mind that used to be a highball boulder problem I sent up years ago....
In reply to: Easy Skippy, go back to studying law and leave the spraying to me
Spray some more for us Lawn Genie...I'll glady take the bolts off that piece of shit, but why don't you come down here and boulder it again for old times sake? Oh, and make sure you finish up and right and don't pu69y out like last time...HAHAHAHAHHAHA
Fucking censors...
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roughster
Jul 7, 2004, 4:55 AM
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In reply to: f---ing censors...
Chris what I think you fail to realize is that not everyone understand who you are, therefore they take what they see you type as literal. There's already enough ignorance on these boards that we don't need to somehow give the "O.K." to them through misunderstanding and sarchasm. Check your recent posts and the reponses to them if you are not quite sure where I am coming from. As for being a censor? You're reaching and you know it.
The reason I posted that photo and reminded you of it was because accidents happen. When something isn't reported in the guidebook (as it sounds like some of the stuff listed in the original thread wasn't), others will come at a later date and think they are doing a legitimate 1st ascent. I mean if it happened to you, surely you would understand, right?
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tigerbythetail
Jul 7, 2004, 5:23 AM
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In reply to: As for being a censor? You're reaching and you know it.
Type in the word pu**y and you'll see the censorship in action - sorry for the confusion.
In reply to: The reason I posted that photo and reminded you of it was because accidents happen.
That's what the mailman said...HAHAHAHAHAHA
In reply to: When something isn't reported in the guidebook (as it sounds like some of the stuff listed in the original thread wasn't), others will come at a later date and think they are doing a legitimate 1st ascent. I mean if it happened to you, surely you would understand, right?
True, but baiting you is so much fun sometimes. Surely you can understand that?
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roughster
Jul 7, 2004, 7:33 AM
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In reply to: Type in the word pu**y and you'll see the censorship in action - sorry for the confusion.
Ahh ok, I was kind of scratching my head at that one :)
In reply to: That's what the mailman said...HAHAHAHAHAHA
I always wondered why I have black hair and all my other brothers are blond/brown??? Just kidding :lol:
In reply to: True, but baiting you is so much fun sometimes. Surely you can understand that?
It certainly is a time honored tradition around these parts :P I just don't like to see this type of stuff get played out amongst people who in reality don't have a stake in the issues at hand. I hope that this situation is resolved for the good of everyone, and not to fulfill the desires exclusively of either group of people on one side or the other of the "mythical" bolt war line.
I just think that once the steel is in the wall, the best course of action is discussion and broaching the issue with the bolter before the crowbar and drills have at each other.
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ksolem
Jul 7, 2004, 5:00 PM
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I agree that dialog is the best route. Often chopping bolts leaves scars and has little benefit. This is why I did not chop the "chicken" bolt a certain individual in over his head added to the Courtright classic "Esto Power" a few years ago (last bolt, 1st pitch.) It's a 1/2 inch button head and removing it would be a mess. My remark about the crowbar was, shall we say, for emphasis.
As far as "mistakes" are concerned, Trapper Dome is a roadside craq visited regularly by some of the best climbers over the last 20 years including the likes of Ron Carson, Vaino Kodas, Herb Laeger and so on. Anyone who thinks that a prominent and nice looking 5.10 crack wasn't already climbed is just plain clueless. :evil:
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xsierra
Jul 7, 2004, 6:04 PM
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Kris, when was the last time you were at Courtright prior to this trip, these routes have been like that for a while, by the way, the corner on Trapper dome that you mention is called "the cradle will rock"I cleaned all the moss from it years ago and lead it witout the bolts, I too am angry about the Petzl long lifes that were placed after so many other people had lead it clean, Scott- in Slovkia- Loomis
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esoteric1
Jul 7, 2004, 6:05 PM
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i agree that pulling someone elses bolts is kinda like painting a moustahce on the mona lisa, if thats what it was to the original bolter. even though it might look like a two year olds rendition of a stick figure to the rest of us. I think some of you might know what i mean when you go to holcom valley and climb the obvious crap out there. in my opinion, there is too many routes out there, and whomever placed all those squeeze jobs, should be sat down and yelled at. thats just my opinion though. maybee there is people that like to do one good route, the 3 bad ones in between the next good one. also just my opinion, i havent taken a crowbar to that area myself, but the ones i have were even worse than that, and obviously abandoned. a little forethought and not buying enough hangars to make buying stock in fixe a good idea go a long way.
once again, just my opinion
mark
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ksolem
Jul 7, 2004, 6:34 PM
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Good to hear from you Scott. I remember when you did that corner. My last visit up ther was last summer but if that corner was bolted then I didn't see it. I know that 40 degree slab called "Drill Sgt" was done a while ago but have you seen the new walk ups bolted over on the left side?
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roughster
Jul 7, 2004, 6:38 PM
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In reply to: i havent taken a crowbar to that area myself, but the ones i have were even worse than that, and obviously abandoned. mark
Unfortunately, that still makes you a thief.
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xsierra
Jul 7, 2004, 6:39 PM
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Kris, also look on page 131 of the Courtright guide, at the bottom of the page you will find info about some of the routes you mentioned, Thank you , Scott
P.S. Take it easy, we need geritol, not crowbars :deadhorse:
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mungeclimber
Jul 7, 2004, 7:30 PM
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In reply to: ... Find out who's done what and don't bolt lines which have been led, can be protected with gear, are squeeze jobs, or can be hiked in sneakers.... From now on I guess I have to include a crowbar in my kit for Courtright.
Disagree, on the 'hike in sneakers' part- there are many classic easy routes that could use bolts- not overbolting- just protected for that level of leader.
With that said, let me know if you want to borrow my crowbar. Orchard Supply sometimes has them on sale also.
Munge
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mungeclimber
Jul 7, 2004, 7:42 PM
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Wow, read the rest of the posts. Guess we should play nice first, THEN BASH BOLTS OUT.
hahaha
Seriously though, if thy eye offends thee, pluck it out- after talking to others. :wink:
You might check with Totalclimbingonline.com. He's climbing North of there near Shuteye Ridge mostly. But he may know some folks.
I climb near 108 mostly, but if I hear anything I'll touch base with you.
Munge
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ksolem
Jul 7, 2004, 8:08 PM
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Certainly there is nothing wrong with having easy and moderate routes with adequate protection. Josh classic Stitcher Quits is a fine example of such a climb. And there are at least a hundred good ones at the Owens Gorge. But drilling bolts on 4th class terrain benefits no one IMHO. Any novice climber who thinks they are benefitting from clipping bolts on a slab of less than 45 degrees angle is kidding themselves. If you can climb it without using your hands isn't placing bolts a bit absurd?
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xsierra
Jul 7, 2004, 9:47 PM
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Kris, can you tell me what climbs these bolted 4th class climbs are next to, I am confused, but I agree that this is too much, wow!! Thank you Scott
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kev
Jul 7, 2004, 10:24 PM
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I know I technically should post this under regional issues or whatever that catagory is but I think you guys can answer my question quickly since we have some locals here....Ok here is my question. Start at 5.8 on penstamen dome (rope a dope I think) now go to the face of dosy that you see to you right. Now at the far right of that face the domeland guide lists a 5.7 climb (don't recall the name) P1 is bolted face 6 bolts acording to the guide P2 has a few variations. Is this the last face climb on the right of the dike or is this the line that follows a polished dike with 7 bolts?
We climbed the dike and I would like to know the name a rating of this route.
Please don't respond with 'go look at the guide book.' This was our problem one of these two routes is new and not listed in the book so we weren't sure what we were on (well actually my partner thought we we on the guide book route but I had my doubts especially since the bolt count didn't match and it felt harder than 5.7 to me). Both sport new bolts although the anchor at the end of the dike P1 is all new bolts however the anchor at the end of P1 of the climb to the right has a mix of shiney and not so new bolts.
To add my wothless 2 cents it did appear as if trapper dome had some
over bolted routes. Looked like some of the stuff might have been done on rap. Don't know and hope not but.....
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xsierra
Jul 7, 2004, 10:41 PM
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I am asuming that this post by "Kev" is Mr. Ludwig, how are you? I have not seen you in a while, what are you trying to say? :-)
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mungeclimber
Jul 8, 2004, 4:02 PM
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In reply to: Certainly there is nothing wrong with having easy and moderate routes with adequate protection. Josh classic Stitcher Quits is a fine example of such a climb. And there are at least a hundred good ones at the Owens Gorge. But drilling bolts on 4th class terrain benefits no one IMHO. Any novice climber who thinks they are benefitting from clipping bolts on a slab of less than 45 degrees angle is kidding themselves. If you can climb it without using your hands isn't placing bolts a bit absurd?
Yes, but that's not what you posted. :) Ah the joys of a bulletin board
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sidewaysmaster
Jul 9, 2004, 5:26 PM
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The 4th class bolted route(s) is how I would walk off the ledge at Trapper if I wanted to go visit the bushes for some reason. Now this may actually be about 5.1 but still I have seen many people walk down this slab and walk back up it without a rope. Besides, it is only about 30 feet tall. There are many easy routes at Courtwright without being silly.
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