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mackavus
Jul 6, 2004, 1:21 PM
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rwaltermyer
Jul 6, 2004, 1:41 PM
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I'd be hestitant...
I understand that its nice to "share". But why not keep it on a PM by PM basis? Just like Gretna. Yes, you can find directions on other forums. But by carefully releasing the directions, it would minimize the impact.
Of course, I know how to get there, so I'm "in".
randy
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mackavus
Jul 6, 2004, 1:56 PM
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Randy,
I get your point... but you have been there and you have seen the impact. Its pretty damn substantial, and permanent. This place is SO good that I dont think it is right to hold out on the directions to people who have never been there. I also dont consider it "sharing" when the area is a state owned natural area, that is known to MANY.
Also, this place has not been kept secret because of the impact... its cause people want it to themselves, and the locals want to climb on the private side without drawing attention to themselves. I dont think that is fair to everyone else who could use the HUGE public side, and get to experience the quality of Hunters. Like I said, as long as everone treads lightly... and stays out of dudes land, the impact isnt the issue here.
What do you think? Anyone else?
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fleamodee
Jul 6, 2004, 2:48 PM
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You are crazy, your reasoning is absurd. Impact?, yeah there's trails, definately not anything out of the ordinary. Hunter's is very fragile place, in the spring wild orchids bloom, a crazy variety of mushrooms exist. The land owner, and yes he does own the land, tolerates a small population it seems. Lets get it right, the public side does not have a ton of climbs, maybe 30 or so, it's spread out. The private side is where most of the climbs are and has the best concentration. I have no problem sharing the place with people, neither do any of the locals, I know them all. I found the place without directions why can't everyone else. If you don't like that then there's other ways to go about it, like a pm, I would love to show anyone around. I just don't think giving directions on the internet to an area on private land is good idea. Do you see directions for the Holy boulders on the internet? No. Furthermore, you say all the classics were renamed, yet my friend PM'ed Mackavus and this person said he didn't post that info on the front page for hunters. So who are you? Maybe writing a guide? Like I said before, It's on private land, the owner is cool for at this time. Maybe he won't be so cool in the future, that's all. Just my opinion. Brian M. I'm adding what Mackavus originally wrote because it disappeared..."Posted: 06 Jul 2004 13:21 Post subject: Hunters Directions
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I am going to post the directions.
Why? "Why?", you ask. I will tell you why.
There are many people who are local to Hunters that dont want you there. They want the area to themselves and do not want to see anyone new experience it. They will tell you that access is an issue, and that its illegal to climb there. Now, I guess this wouldnt be that big of a deal if the area was semi-secret, or if the impacts to the area were incredibly minimal. Well I have to tell you that Hunters does not fall into either of those two categories. MANY people know about the area, and more would love to experience it. The area is also impacted heavily, there are trails everwhere, and even camping clearings with fire rings. There is minimal vegetation very close to the boulders and it isnt going to come back any time soon. As long as you leave only footprints, and maybe a little chalk, you are not going to impact this area any more than it already is. I am strongly against people being told NOT to go to a public area for bogus reasons, such as locals wanting it to themselves, and it is for this reason that I am going to post the directions. Anyone can get this information if they know how. I think it would be better to inform them not to go over to dudes land, but let them know where everything else is. There is NO reason to be stingy with this place. Yes, there is a small private section. Yes, many classics are on it. But the majority of the ridge is public. Stay out of the private area and we wont have any problems. Many popular crags, have areas where you are not supposed to go. Anyone hear of the Red??? Is that place kept a secret?
If you dont want me to PM with clear reasons why, or post with them. Maybe I wont then. I dont want to piss people off but if you dont have any reasons other than the little section that is on private land, I am still going to post them.
edited to add info, spelling"
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jason1
Jul 7, 2004, 12:08 AM
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brian said it best....
good going to B and ken roth
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rwaltermyer
Jul 7, 2004, 10:08 AM
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while I see the intent there-- wanting to be unselfish and share-- I definitely agree w/ fleamodee. Sounds very similar to what is happening at Gretna.
Even with no directions posted to there, the amount of climbers is increasing there b/c so many ppl now talk about it. So shhhhh! Hunters?
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roclimb
Jul 7, 2004, 3:47 PM
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Sorry about that guys,
I was actually the one who updated the Hunter's history info. For some reason it did not list my screenname when I did it.
I have been doing a lot of rescearch on Hunters and I figured there should at least be some acurate history about the area provided.
Its truely amazing, some of the routes I thought I put up there in the late 80's were actually established 2 decades before I even climbed there. I'm totally psyched about it.
By the way if people respect the private property there is no problem with directions to Hunter's. Everyone and his brother knows about Hunter's and directions are as simple as walking in the local shop and asking. There are tons of boulder problems on the Game Lands side and its legal to climb there. Its overwhelming the amount of people who know about this spot so directions at this point online will make no difference. Gretna is a lot on Game lands also (except a small section on local school property).
It's a beautyfull place, why keep it a secret if 2-miles of it are legal.
~Rob :D
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fleamodee
Jul 7, 2004, 6:40 PM
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Rob, I don't know you, I have never seen you at hunters, I lived in state college for 3 years and still frequent the area, never saw you once. Are you local to area? I could be wrong but I don't think you are. Is there a reason why you feel the need to publish all this information? Why don't you give the directions to all the wilkes-barre/scranton areas that i've heard you talk about? Are they your local areas and you wouldn't want a ton of people showing up and chipping holds creating trash, etc? I'm all for sharing knowledge about bouldering spots...the people that will respect the land will find a way to get there, I am also about finding them on my own...there's more pleasure in it that way. If you were so concerned about the private section of hunter's why didn't you give directions to the power cut parking lot, the majority of the climbs on state land are on that side of the ridge anyway. You just don't make much sense, sorry. As for the problems that were renamed lets hear which ones, put your money where your mouth is
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rwaltermyer
Jul 7, 2004, 7:14 PM
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lets do this with some standard of maturity... and preserve whats left of the PA climber's image when it comes to discussing Hunters.
(See neb.com if you're lost on this one...)
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jkarns
Jul 7, 2004, 7:33 PM
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I have never fully agreed with the reasoning that has been presented for keeping the Gretna directions secret. All of the boulders (except for some minor, little known boulders) are on land that is open for public recreation. The primary reason I've been handed over the years is the chipping issue. Sure, locals are all aware that there was a spell a number of years ago where some chipping occurred. Locals are also aware that the chipping has not at all been an ongoing problem. Furthermore, I see no threat of increased chipping due to directions being post on the net.
The one real reason I see for not posting directions is that the boulders are so crazy hard to find. Sure directions to the parking area are easy. However, from there things get much more complicated. That being said, I beleive that writing directions to the coldflesh/bodysnap area would be easy enough, and a little wandering from that point could get one to most of the other boulders.
I was not one of the primary developers of Gretna, but I am good friends with most of them. None of them post regularly on this board, and you do not need to be concerned that I will post directions, as it is pretty clear that the climbing community as a whole is a against it. I don't 100% understand why though.
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roclimb
Jul 7, 2004, 8:17 PM
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Fleamodee,
No, I am not a local at the moment at Hunters and you obviously knew that as you mentioned about my Scranton / Wilkes Barre areas. I first started climbing there in the 80’s when I was in high school and friends of mine who went to PSU invited me there to climb. I was very active then and in my college years and thereafter. If you have only been there for 3 years you would not have ran into me as I have only been there about a handful of times since 1997/98.
If anyone wants to know about Wilkes/Barre Scranton I almost always tell them unless the area is on private land. I'm sure a lot of climbers can verify since I have given directions out to dozens of areas in Northeast PA including Scranton Wilkes Barre to just about anyone who has asked me. Want to find any? Send me a PM I would be more than happy to share.
You said in your original post you were going to post directions to Hunter's. Why are you now angry that I am giving directions to Hunter’s? This seems very unusual to me.
People all over the country know about Hunter's. The important thing at the moment is to inform the community that part IS on private land but the majority (2-miles) is on State Game lands and jointly owned by Rothrock State Forest. A very popular hiking trail (the Link Trail) also goes through the majority of Hunters property. This is how many climbers first discovered Hunter's. There is a guidebook for the hiking trail. The hiking trail has not closed the area. Listing the problems on public land will increase use to the public part and decrease use on the private. Most of the reason no one climbs on the public side is that they have no idea what the problems there are.
So many people are using the area now that it is imposable to stop them. The best thing now is to inform the community what is going on and the rules as to where you can climb and where you can't climb.
If you ever want to talk more about the land ownership or what you can do to help access issues out at Hunter's, I would be glad to talk about it.
Happy Climbing
~Rob :
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fleamodee
Jul 7, 2004, 9:41 PM
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Rob, I never said I was going to post the directions, the section in my first post to this topic that says anything about directions was the original post by mackavus that was erased. If you read down through my post it states that right after my name. If you will give out info on your home areas only by pm than why can't the same thing be done for hunter's? Seems reasonable to me. I'm not going to let this thing get anywhere near the craziness that happened on neb.com, so unless I feel unbelievable compelled I'm done talking about it. BrianM
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jason1
Jul 7, 2004, 11:18 PM
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i gotta agree agin with brian... rob, calling people a bunch of nieve locals and accusing of people of renaming classic routes isn't going to make you any friends... if you have something to say on a route just say it, we'll do our books you do your books and we'll arrive at something we can say is the closest version of the truth... of course, if there's some hugh herr route there it's going to be recognized.
And that's pretty low to go around posting directions to peoples areas... especially for someone who works for the AF. shame on you...
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mackavus
Jul 8, 2004, 12:01 AM
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You know what. I totally was out of this conversation and had given up on what I thought was right, and I was not going to post the directions, and I had decided that although I disagreed, I would side with you guys.
I have changed my mind.
I just read "Peoples Areas" and that was enough to piss me off again. I completely know and understand that you have done alot for Hunters with the road and blahblah, but SINCE WHEN does that give you guys any form of ownership?!
"pretty low to go around posting directions to peoples areas" .....please... give me a fucking break here. "peoples areas" HA! Who the hell proclaimed these guys the owners, and elite members of this area. It is a HUGE area with a MASSIVE portion that is public. Hiding stuff like this just for the locals own benefit is so selfish and disgusting it make me want to puke. I actually had one person tell me: "Fuck the masses, I dont give a shit about anyone else who wants to use that area." Thats real good, real good.
I think that if ANYONE in PA would understand access issues its Rob, and it seems the guy cares more about accuracy than any thing else.
It also seems that people from the Hunters area care more about first ascents than anything in the World. The locals, especially Randy from what Jason told me in a PM, almost had a frickin coronary when some other dude almost sent his project that 15 minutes before he cared nothing about. It just sounds like some of the locals think that there can be NO WAY anyone else climbed thier problems before they did. Who cares?! I mean, it has to be friggin great to have some first acsents credited to you, but is that all these guys care about??? Do they feel they have to leave some legacy behind or something? Give me a break. Yeah, Im sure that the only thing on Robs mind is that he wants to piss people off by telling them thier FAs are worth dik. I cant wait till the book comes out, thats all I am saying.
Am I going to post them??? eh.... prolly not, but I still think this is retarded.
Peace. :x
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roclimb
Jul 8, 2004, 7:48 PM
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Jason,
You said.....In reply to: And that's pretty low to go around posting directions to peoples areas... especially for someone who works for the AF. shame on you...
I have nothing to be ashamed about and there is no reason I should. Many climbing areas in the U.S. have the same access situation as Hunter's and people are still alowed to climb there. Hueco has much of its bouldering closed but much is open, Peterskill only allows climbing on 10% of its boulders, Mohank Preserve (gunk's) closed the fantastic bouldering at skytop and the base of Millbrook. Climbers respect and obide by the regulations at these spots and there is no reason for the same at Hunters.
By the way I remember you posting Hunter's on Rock N Road online a while back, it was then updated by Eric Harrison- who Zweig proudly siad was a climbing partner of you guys- this Hunters info is in a nationally
published book. He also did a guidebook for hunters, you are also featured in an online video guide of Hunters on Synrock. So I think this is the pot calling the kettle black here. Dont worry though as the area is mostly on Public lands.
It does however list in Rock N Road (I just looked at the book at Border's) that you gave directions to Minersville- a closed climbing area and The Rim, a very access sensitive area. You gave directions to both areas. Luckily you listed The Rim as in Philladelphia (200 miles from its actual location). Have you actually been there? So I guess maybee I am not the one who should be ashamed here.
I'm sorry that you don't know the History of your local area and the world renown boulderers who climbed there before you. I was lucky enough to be bouldering there long enough to know who they were and what they did. So I guess that shoots a hole in your theory that my friends and I were not climbing there before you guys. But you already know that don't you.
Anyway thats all I am going to say about Hunters as I think my points are very clear and valid.
Happy Climbing
~Rob :D
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jason1
Jul 9, 2004, 12:33 PM
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yeah rob, my natural willingness to share beta makes me an easy target for guidebook whores like yourself... always needling you for annother piece of info for thier guidebook.... like angry dragon, huh rob... it's your favorite problem, where?
it's funney... a couple of months ago you wanted to know route info at hunters... then you got whooped on by randy and chris over at neb.... BTW, you ever get those pic of that 5.6 you you said you sent that randy called bs on...now you're acting like a child.... i've asked you before if you have info on hunters for months.... i'd like to hear it... what it's not my climbs being renamed...
as for accuracy, well... i expect it'll be about as accurate as your posts.... so i'm not to worried.... you're points are far from valid and far from true.
that's it for me.... btw, i live in ut.... so it's not like i'm trying to keep the place to myself...
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mackavus
Jul 9, 2004, 12:43 PM
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OK I hate to get involved in a little "sub-topic agument" here, but just so Rob can have a little backup... I read those threads over at NEB and I wouldnt say that Randy or Chris "whooped" on Rob or anyone else. I think it was a poor display from everyone, and since Chris deleted over 80% of his posts since then, I think there would be some doubt as to him thinking that he "whooped" anyone.
grammar edit
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roclimb
Jul 9, 2004, 3:43 PM
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Typical Hunters local behavior,
I make curtious fact based responses to people who quote that I am "talking shat about their problems" then I am called a "Child".
Typical Hunters behavior.
Anyway Jay, You said you want some of the history I am talking about. Dont play dumb. I gave you a lot of history and specific names of people at Hunters that dated back to the 60's (should I post the response I sent you on neb) You graced me with false info about your and Randys claims at hunters and said one of you put up a V11 named black Snake boogie, Randy later said it was a V3. So why tell me it is V11?
I have been honest and trying to credit your crew that climbed there in the late 90's for the handfull of problems they did actually establish. I have been met with responses like yours to delibritly make it impossable to get the truth about what you actually did.
Like the V14 you claimed you guys did there in an old e-mail you sent me. You know the one you said is"harder than Martini roof at Hueco".
As for me not knowing about your other secret areas" angry Dragon" in Central PA. Maybee I will just post directions on this site to Mapleton, Chestnut Ridge, Goodman Quarry, Pulpit Rocks, Bear Rocks, Mach Chunck Ridge, The Spires, Black Rocks. Then we will see what I know about and dont know about. Want to take that chance I dont know where it is? They are all on State owned property.
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fleamodee
Jul 9, 2004, 4:32 PM
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I thought that problem was at the same area as Moment of Zen, or did you just make that up on neb.com? You did say it was your very favorite there...hahahahaha
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rockjess
Jul 9, 2004, 4:33 PM
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-J,
roclimb did not get whooped on as you say. From what I remember from NEB.com roclimb pretty much proved everything centard and radsi said as being wrong.
He was also right on about centarl's problems being massively over graded. Brett Myers and another dude drove from Boston and downgraded his Lynn rated V12 to a mere V8. and Randy’s V10 to V8, and that was when it was covered in ice.
Or did you forget about who really got whooped.
Jessie
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jason1
Jul 9, 2004, 11:16 PM
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ok, one more that's it...
rob, just the fact that you're threating a bunch of areas now shows that you will jepordize an area out of spite... shame on you... and some of your posts sound like a crazed lunitic... btw, did i mention i live in utah? you're only screwing yourself... i'll be kicking back, up at joe's and smiling about the whole thing...
jess, ratings are a consenus.... you need multipule opinions on grade... granted i'm not saying those climbs arn't V8 and v whatever... they may be easier... randy may have been having a fat day... we all have'em... but as far as strong east coast climbers randy and chris are up there...
that's it i'm outtie...
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roclimb
Jul 10, 2004, 11:05 PM
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Jay,
once again you are the only one name calling.
And the areas I am posting (like the one I just posted) are on public lands and allow climbing. So I am not ruining climbing for anyone just letting PA climbers find out about some nice PUBLIC spots. You guys choose to keep them secret cause you want em to yourselves. I like to spread the word soo all can enjoy. No harm in that especially since they are on PUBLIC land.
~Rob
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roclimb
Jul 10, 2004, 11:13 PM
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Jason removed the directions to an area called Bear Rocks I posted.
This area is in Black Moshannon state park. They allow climbing there.
I think we can all see what virtues Jason stands for now.
I guess you arnt sitting back in UT without a care.
Put your greed aside and grow up man. The climbing area is on public land. Why should only you know about it?
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fleamodee
Jul 11, 2004, 2:19 AM
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It's not on public land, it's definately private.
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jkarns
Jul 11, 2004, 3:21 AM
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In reply to: It's not on public land, it's definately private.
This has been discussed at great length. While some of Hunter's is private, much of it is public.
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