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verticallaw
May 9, 2002, 4:08 PM
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O.K. here we go, I have just read the forum about "adding a bolt" I did not respond cause well there are already enough forums regarding this. But somthing did catch my attention, Someone suggested stick clipping the first bolt to avoid a groundfall. With that said how does that affect your "ticking off the route" me and my partner do not give kudos for stick clipping the first bolt and calling a redpoint or a pink point for that matter. Are we being dicks about this or what? I feel that if you are to truly tick a rout as a redpoint or a pinkpoint the rope stays below you as it should on a lead. when a stick clip is done we look at it as a fall.
any comments??? What would you rate this??
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rrrADAM
May 9, 2002, 4:13 PM
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I've seen plenty of short sport routes pre-clipped with an "extendo-stick-clip"... This is the nature of sport climbing, like gym climbing but out doors.
It's a valid ascent, it's just called a pink point.
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atg200
May 9, 2002, 4:14 PM
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depends on the route. lots of sport routes are designed to be stick clipped, and if done onsight have terrible clipping positions at the first bolt. i'd say stick clipping counts there.
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radistrad
May 9, 2002, 4:30 PM
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I have a stick clip, but I rarley use it (its hard to use on trad).
I think if the first bolt is dangerous to get to and clip, its ok to stick clip it.
I dont think you guys are being dick about not giving kudos for stick clipping, its just your style. If you gave some other guys a hard time for stick clipping (so they could climb safley) then you'd be dicks.
I'd hate to see a climber get hurt because they did not stick clip after someone razzed them about it. Its a lot more effort to help an injured climber than to let their "style" slide on by, no matter what one thinks of it.
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phreakdigital
May 9, 2002, 4:42 PM
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Diminishing stick-stick starts puts more people in danger of hurting themselves, and therefore puts the sport further danger of being considered too dangerous for non-climbers to participate, so it should not be looked down upon...no one wants to take a groundfall...i dont know where you climb but Smith Rock has some routes that the first bolt is like 15-20 ft up...sometimes up some 5.10 moves. I am leading 12- and some of them seem crazy to me...i will continue to make ascents with the first bolt clipped.
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spank_spank
May 9, 2002, 4:47 PM
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I will always stick clip the first bolt. Saftey first. I seen first bolts as high as 15 ft or more.
If you climb a route without falling or weighting the rope. It is a valid ascent.
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killclimbz
May 9, 2002, 4:52 PM
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I use a stick clip for the first bolt whenever I think it may be dangerous to clip the first bolt. I don't see anything wrong with this. Heck I've even used a stick clip to finish off a route I am incapable of climbing. Didn't want to leave a bail biner. It's all a matter of perception. I don't really care if the guy next to me thinks I am cheating by sticking the first bolt. It's my ass and not his that'll get hurt if I blow it.
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jt512
May 9, 2002, 4:54 PM
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It is still a redpoint if you stick clip the first bolt, but no other bolts.
-Jay
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mikedano
May 9, 2002, 5:03 PM
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This thread actually makes me want to get a stick clipper thing. Sometimes that first bolt is pretty scary, and I think safer is always better. What do they look like and where do you buy/make them?
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spank_spank
May 9, 2002, 5:19 PM
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Mikedano - buy a golf ball retriever. You can get one at Walmart for $10. Buy a clip at REI for $8.
Saw off the cup at the end of the golf ball retriever and attach the clip. Wal lah!! you have a 10-12 ft. stick clip
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wigglestick
May 9, 2002, 5:27 PM
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Or if you find it hard to justify buying a golf ball retriever and carrying it in your pack a stick and some athletic tape works well. Just be sure that you you wrap the tape in such a way that when you yank the stick the biner closes properly. Although with a dedicated device maybe you could also make some type of toothbrush attachment for brushing off those holds while bouldering.
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sistersboulderingarea
May 9, 2002, 5:33 PM
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Safety first is a good attitude.
Shouldnt non-climber not be leading a sport route?? I dont think safety to non-climbers has any validity in this argument. A guy who has never climbed should not be leading anything.
I have seen lots of out-door sport routes on over hangs and 5.12 and 5.13 grades that have quick draws left on them. Isnt that the same as stick cliping? Except that the rope isnt above you.
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fiend
May 9, 2002, 5:40 PM
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Some routes, (like those in the Madness Cave at the RRG) have fragile crumbly bottoms and are meant to be stickclipped so you can rail up to the first bolt and start climbing from there.
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awsclimber
May 9, 2002, 5:46 PM
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I find it hypocritical that the same posters who feel it is a horrible transgression to add a bolt to an unsafely bolted sport route feel that stick clipping still counts as a valid redpoint. Is there any true theory behind your thoughts or are you just trying to be contradictive. CLimb Safe
Adam
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verticallaw
May 9, 2002, 5:57 PM
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no I have never razzed someone for stick clipping that would be mean. Safety is paramount. But I find it hard to accept a redpoint on a route that was stick clipped as you did not physically clip the bolt. and just as a note I use the stick clip but I do not take points for the route.
[ This Message was edited by: verticallaw on 2002-05-09 14:30 ]
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wigglestick
May 9, 2002, 6:09 PM
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I don't mean to hijack the thread but I must play the role of devils advocate here. Does anybody else notice the parallels between stick clipping the first bolt to bolting a crack? One side says "it is safer and opens the route up to more climbers" The other side says "if you do not have the huevos to climb the route without [stick clipping or using natural protection] then maybe you shouldn't be climbing that route." I realize that we are talking about a sport route here so pretty much anything goes, but couldn't a more "traditional" (for lack of a better word) climber argue that using a stick clip is cheating?
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jt512
May 9, 2002, 7:28 PM
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They can argue whatever they want, but stick clipping the first bolt is an accepted practice. Top sport climbers don't fret about things like stickclipping or whether a pinkpoint is a redpoint. They decided theses issues a long time ago. It's the average Joe climbers who think they matter.
-Jay
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spank_spank
May 9, 2002, 7:33 PM
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Sharma did Realization with the draws already in place. I guess that didn't count did it?
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radistrad
May 9, 2002, 7:35 PM
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Wiggles, its a sport climb, they can do what ever they want, right?
I suppose a soloist would say that all gear is cheating... we can go round and round on this one... lets not.
I think for aid and sport, sticks are ok, if your a trad junkie like me, you would not even think of bringing a stick clip to the cliffs.
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crackaddict
May 9, 2002, 7:54 PM
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I must of been the one VL was refering to.
I have been seeing to this stick clipping first hand by some of my new partners. Thats why I came up with that solution in stead of adding a bolt.
I think if there is pre plcaed gear it is a pink point. But if you have seen any pro sportclimber do a 13 or 14 with the draws in place it is called a redpoint. Try telling them that the only pinkpointed it. You probably would'nt say anything because you were in awe that they did the route. Some where along the ratings scale pink turns to red. Who knows? Who makes the rules? the first ascentionist made his own rule. But does that apply to you?
Its all up to the individual how they want to climb the route. Some people don't care about that crap! Saftey is the most important thing not the style. I can respect that because I would rather see people climb safe than get hurt. Its all climbing just as long as you met your challenge the way you wanted to.
And to the above reply. Putting bolts next to cracks is a shame. Especially when there is all that gear around to use. But in sport areas this is acceptable and in trad areas it is not.
Next thing they will invent is the cam stick or nut stick.
Somebody will invent a way to suit there needs.
So its a toss up do you place a bolt or use a stick.
Which ethic will you sacrifice?
All I can say is that there is so many styles of climbing and eveyone has there own idea of ethics.
Who knows anymore?
[ This Message was edited by: crackaddict on 2002-05-09 13:18 ]
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verticallaw
May 9, 2002, 9:39 PM
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nice post crackaddict I do agree. My point was more a question. I do record my own accomplishments and am proud when I redpoint a route clean. When I was climbiung not to lomg ago I finally redpointed a 5.10d that I had been working on for a while (about 1 month)... I took so long to do it cause the first bolt was very difficult (hardest part of the route). I proudly nailed it and than watched another climber stick clip it and than brag to his friends that he redpointed it. I don't care how he marks his routes but it realy put all the hard work that I did to shame. I still am proud that I nailed it clean so I guess it really doesn't matter
Mike
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jono13
May 9, 2002, 9:55 PM
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climbing with the draws already in is alright, but stickclippin is for noodle armed chour boys who are wimps!
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jt512
May 9, 2002, 10:24 PM
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Verticallaw, so how did you climb the route before your redpoint? Did you practice it on TR, wiring the moves to the first bolt before you led it? Do you really consider that better "style" than just stick clipping the first bolt?
Quote:
Crackaddict: Some where along the ratings scale pink turns to red. Who knows?
It's not somewhere along the scale that the distinction between redpointing and pinkpointing disappears, it's somewhere among the skill level of the climber that it disappears. The top climbers don't make a distinction. If a 5.14 climber led a 5.9 with draws in place, he'd call it a redpoint. Redpointing with the draws in place has become the norm.
-Jay
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crackaddict
May 9, 2002, 11:09 PM
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Thank VL.
I know yor point was a question. I guess I just started to ramble and got off track.
So if I was sport climbing it would'nt really matter to me. My hardest sport climb on lead is 11c. If I were to do a 12a with the first bolt cliped and have a clean ascent. You bet I would call it a red point.
But if I were on a trad climb I would not clip the first piece. I just don't do that on trad climbs. So I guess I have different ethics for diferent styles.
My partners clip there first bolts and call them red points. Sometimes I have to climb up clip it for them and then down climb. Because I don't carry a clip stick.
And JT you are right it has become the norm.
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jt512
May 9, 2002, 11:30 PM
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I don't pre-clip the first piece on trad climbs either, and there are several trad climbs that I have not yet led for this reason.
-Jay
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