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slablizard
Aug 17, 2004, 4:47 PM
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What are you guys? Dumb? :P
Of course when you do it is not above your abilities, WHEN YOU DO IT!
Until you're there working out the move IT IS above your abilities.
Capish? :lol:
In reply to: In reply to: Caldwell has had multi-year projects that he eventually sent. Does the fact that he evenutally sent them mean that they weren't "above his abilities"-Jay If you do a route than it is not above your ability. Duh Where's a toolfile button when you need one. |
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jt512
Aug 17, 2004, 5:15 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: Caldwell has had multi-year projects that he eventually sent. Does the fact that he evenutally sent them mean that they weren't "above his abilities"-Jay If you do a route than it is not above your ability. Duh
"Duh" seems to be the more intelligent part of your statement.
-Jay
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jt512
Aug 17, 2004, 5:23 PM
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In reply to: What are you guys? Dumb? :P Of course when you do it is not above your abilities, WHEN YOU DO IT! Until you're there working out the move IT IS above your abilities.
Tell it to Reardon.
-Jay
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mreardon
Aug 17, 2004, 9:14 PM
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In reply to: Tell it to Reardon. -Jay
Nothing to tell, you don't understand and never will.
[quote="dbyte"]
In reply to: Do you need any help picking up all those names you just dropped?!? :lol:
I was waiting for someone to comment, but the point was simple, Bachar's the man regardless of who you are in climbing and every one of them pay their respects. :D
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jt512
Aug 17, 2004, 9:17 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: Tell it to Reardon. -Jay Nothing to tell, you don't understand and never will.
Easy for you to say, Mike. Try me. I'm actually quite bright.
-Jay
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fredbob
Aug 17, 2004, 10:17 PM
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In reply to: Bachar helped develop a certain way of climbing -- .......He put all of himself into his work, and we should all be proud of what he did because it redirects our gaze right up to the stars.
Watching this thread develop, it is somewhat interesting to observe how Bachar's sometimes abrasive personality has been utilized to critique his stature as a climber. Without a doubt, John was one of the most pivotal and influential figures in rock climbing during the last 30 years. His climbing reputation doesn't really need defending, though JL and others (and I guess now me) have bothered, in a sense, to do so.
John's influence on the world of rock climbing was all pervasive by 1980. The world's top climbers flocked to places like Joshua Tree and Yosemite to repeat Bachar testpieces.
John was serious about training, rightly sensing that compared to athletic endeavors such as gymnastics, few climbers were developing specific strengths and skills necessary to climb harder routes. Influenced by the likes of John Gill, Bachar (as well as others; e.g.: Tony Yaniro) brought a new level of dedication and innovation to training for climbing, long before anyone conceived of an artificial climbing wall.
But lets not forget, John was supremely talented, the best of his generation. The fact that the mention of his name today can evoke so many opinions (informed and otherwise) says plenty. I look forward to seeing Mike Reardon's documentary, maybe today's climbers can get a perspective on a man whose accomplishments are still both influential and inspirational.
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bobd1953
Aug 17, 2004, 10:27 PM
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In reply to: Those that hold the same ethics he did and have not compromised them are currently the strongest climbers. I don't see Sharma, Caldwell, Keil and the rest of the gang pulling on chipped holds, gluing in pockets, or hangdogging routes that are above their abilities. Those ethic-based climbing accomplishments speak higher than anything else.
I think that at one time or another Caldwell, Keil and Sharma has pulled on a chipped or glued holds. Doesn't make chipping right! All of them have climbed in France, Smith and Rifle.
Hangdogging starts once you weight the rope and try the move without lowering to a ledge or the ground. I would also bet that they have done that. I would also believe that "Realization" was a little above Sharma ability went he first started that project.
Bachar has very little to prove to the current climbing world. What he did/done will stand through the ages. The same way Kauk's climbing will, Gill's climbing will, Watt's climbing will and so on...
Hanging on a rope is not bad ethics.
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jt512
Aug 17, 2004, 10:29 PM
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In reply to: Hanging on a rope is not bad ethics.
Thank you.
-Jay
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curt
Aug 17, 2004, 10:32 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: Hanging on a rope is not bad ethics. Thank you. -Jay
Well, hanging on a rope certainly doesn't exemplify good ethics.
Curt
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bobd1953
Aug 17, 2004, 10:42 PM
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In reply to: Well, hanging on a rope certainly doesn't exemplify good ethics.
Don't confuse style with ethics.
That means that Wunsch, Bragg, Erickson, Dunn, Kauk and so on lacked good ethics. They at one time or another hung on the rope and try moves while hanging from the ropes.
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hasbeen
Aug 17, 2004, 10:51 PM
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Just to add a bit of fuel to the fire, Bachar is/was against chipping, glueing, and hangdogging for the most part. However, he did do all three at various times. I could probably even dig up pics.
This, in no way means a lack of respect because Bachar was, in my opinion, the best climber in the world at one point. Not many people can say that--or have it said about them. He, like Kauk, are beautiful to watch climb.
And, while abrasive, perhaps, he's also quite funny in a most sarcatic manner. So maybe he's not abrasive. Maybe he's just takin' the piss and many don't get it.
"Every day the dancer goes out and works on his dance. He may have some goals or some pieces he would like to perform but the main point is to work on his dance. Both he and I are interested in the same thing. It's the dance that counts (sic)" - JB
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iamthewallress
Aug 17, 2004, 10:56 PM
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In reply to: Well, hanging on a rope certainly doesn't exemplify good ethics.
It doesn't exemplify ethics of any sort, IMO, unless it's wrapped around someone's neck.
Style and aesthetics on the other hand...
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rockvoyager
Aug 18, 2004, 12:03 AM
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In reply to: Just a quick observation about how JB's influence continues to be felt by modern climbers all over the world: Astroman, 5/75; Bachar-Yerian, 8/81. JV
Yeowzer
Crap shoes, bunk gear. Does anything else really need to be said??
Brad
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curt
Aug 18, 2004, 12:27 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: Well, hanging on a rope certainly doesn't exemplify good ethics. It doesn't exemplify ethics of any sort, IMO, unless it's wrapped around someone's neck. Style and aesthetics on the other hand...
Indeed, hanging on a rope is more a stylistic issue than it is an ethical one. However, it can sometimes be an ethical issue.
For example - two climbers are both trying to get the first ascent of a difficult new line. One always lowers to the ground after each fall, while the other "hangdogs" at the crux and bags the "FA" before the other guy.
Stealing a FA by cheating, IMO, then transcends stylistics and becomes an ethical issue.
Curt
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bobd1953
Aug 18, 2004, 12:43 AM
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In reply to: For example - two climbers are both trying to get the first ascent of a difficult new line. One always lowers to the ground after each fall, while the other "hangdogs" at the crux and bags the "FA" before the other guy.
No that just means he (hangdogger) was smarter and more efficent. :)
Let's get back to Bachar
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bishopclimber
Aug 18, 2004, 4:47 PM
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I'm not going to get into the style vs ethics issue.
Bachar, and Largo were my heroes when I started climbing(1979). The things they did back then were amazing. Used to see them at Stony quite a few times.
There is no doubt that JB was cutting edge. Saw him freesolo the left Watercrack on Lembert when 5.8 was harder than it is now.
Just curious, how many sport climbers would have the vision to fa the Bachar-Yerian?
Largo, a mutual friend once told me that you thought that Bachar was the best face climber in the world, and Yaniro the best crack climber. true?
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hasbeen
Aug 18, 2004, 5:05 PM
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In reply to: Just curious, how many sport climbers would have the vision to fa the Bachar-Yerian? _________________
Many of the top guys do. It's pretty common now for climbers to push standards on the lead in the mountains. Okay, not common but there are many people out there doing it. Especially in Europe, where you have huge walls of limestone. Pop in a bolt and then cast off with a bunch of hooks in search of your next placement. Guys like Kammerlander and Huber(s), and many more, have established loads of routes in this style into the 5.14 range. It's identical, really, to what Bachar did back then. It's not like he was a one of a kind athlete and nobody will ever equal those feats. He was a visionary but there will be new visionaries with each generation who will continue to become better and better at climbing.
If you are suggesting the climbing standards aren't what they once were, you are out of your friggin' mind. And if you want an example, just look at El Cap. Even when Skinner/Piana freed the sucker at the end of the Bachar era it was thought to be "impossible" and they were accused by a large part of the "in-the-know" crowd as liers and cheaters. Now you've got weekend warriors freeing the thing. Times have changed but today climbers are just as strong, just as bold, and just as visionary as ever.
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vivalargo
Aug 18, 2004, 5:30 PM
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In reply to: Largo, a mutual friend once told me that you thought that Bachar was the best face climber in the world, and Yaniro the best crack climber. true?
Can't remember ever making any "best" appraisals. And anyhow, both Bachar and Yaniro are both from the "trad" era, which is considerably different than sport climbing, so the appraisals don't really translate in a way easily understandable today since folks are not doing that sort of climbing much anymore. Also, I was based in California, and though I traveled around quite a bit, I didn't see everyone so my opinion is biased.
That much said, here are a few guys who really impressed me over the years (on trad). Both Darrel Hensel and Rick Accomazzo were awesome on slabs and thin hold climbing, especially on first ascents featuring mamouth runouts. Bachar was wonderful on the boulders and cracks as well. He could basically do anything. Bill Price was physically weak but could do any crack (like Phoenix) because his technique was so good. Dale Bard could climb offwidth cracks like a champ because he was strong, bold, thin, and always in shape--and he had great technique. Bridwell was a total master of climbing flares, as was Mark Klemens. Kauk and Billy Westbay were tremendous at everythng, and Ron Fawcett (English -- we climbed El Cap together as teenagers) was the lyback king.
On long, really bold adventure first ascents, Richard Harrison was my partner of choice because he had a great head, was solid on every technique and was easy to get along with.
Thee were plenty of others as well . . .
JL
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cracklover
Aug 18, 2004, 8:57 PM
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In reply to: For example - two climbers are both trying to get the first ascent of a difficult new line. One always lowers to the ground after each fall, while the other "hangdogs" at the crux and bags the "FA" before the other guy. Stealing a FA by cheating, IMO, then transcends stylistics and becomes an ethical issue.
Absolutely. I think where people are missing your point (and perhaps you are missing their's) is this: When the accepted style changes, so does the definition of "cheating", and the ethical dillemma vanishes except in the mind of the person who retains the anachronistic style.
Those of us young'uns who weren't there should try to see the comments of those folks who were in the appropriate light. They (especially those in the highest echelons like Bachar and Robbins) were fighting battles within the context of their own times. After a "generally accepted" style has moved on, it's easy to take someone's position out of context and portray them as ridiculous, unrealistic, or even wrong. But best to keep in mind that they were dealing with a dynamic situation which might (at least theoretically) have gone differently than it did!
GO
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rocloco
Aug 19, 2004, 3:26 PM
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days of our lives
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dingus
Aug 19, 2004, 4:24 PM
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Well, to sort of bring this thing back around again, Old Dogs, perhaps some of you would care to take a crack at Pat Ament's characterizations of Bachar? Each of you, in your own way, seem to have in the course of defending your friend confirmed what Ament said.
It is interesting that Ament seems to have afforded himself at least as much space in that book as he did Bachar, and more I suspect!
DMT
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curt
Aug 19, 2004, 5:31 PM
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In reply to: Well, to sort of bring this thing back around again, Old Dogs, perhaps some of you would care to take a crack at Pat Ament's characterizations of Bachar? Each of you, in your own way, seem to have in the course of defending your friend confirmed what Ament said.
What's the point? I don't see how personal characterizations of Bachar reflect on his climbing resume in any way.
In reply to: It is interesting that Ament seems to have afforded himself at least as much space in that book as he did Bachar, and more I suspect! DMT
Author's prerogitive there, I suppose. Ament also chose to include me in his book. What can I say? The guy obviously has a lack of proper perspective. :lol:
Curt
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dingus
Aug 19, 2004, 6:11 PM
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In reply to: What's the point? I don't see how personal characterizations of Bachar reflect on his climbing resume in any way.
Right on Bro. Um, who said this thread was about John Bachar's climbing resume?
In reply to: What's John Bachar up to these days? Back in the mid 80's he was "The Man"! Then he kind of dropped off the radar after a few high-profile run-ins about bolting. Always seemed to me too bad that he never seemed to be able to embrace the changes in climbing (and be embraced by the new climbing community). Anyone know if he is still climing at a high standard, still active in the climbing community, happy, whatever? Does he still live in Foresta?
That is a fairly broad opening, wouldn't you say? This IS the History Channel, right? And Ament, he sort of specializes in climbing history I think. And one of the subjects of his free climbing history book is John Bachar, the one and same guy we are discussing right now.
Robbins, to abuse an overused example, behaved in dickheaded ways from time to time, same as the rest of us. Calling attention to those dickheaded things doesn't detract from the greatness of the man, nor does it lessen his contributions to the sport. In fact, it could be argued that his dickheadedness was PART of that contribution, such as chopping the first 4 of the Dawn Wall or nabbing the Direct NW Face of HD from Cooper and Rowell. This is part of the fabric of the history of our sport, as was the subsequent chopping of Robbins' bolts on Free Blast.
I believe Bachar's personality traits certainly played a major role in his contribution to the sport and the history that goes with it. I don't believe it is necessary to shy away from the truth of a man, any man. He is what he is and to suggest that his personality is off bounds because his climbing skills are so peerless is, well, ridiculous.
All that said, it is good to see his friends stick up for him to this day, even the ones mentioned in the book.
It is in fact undeniable that some of the heat Bachar took was due in part to his personality. That personality is woven into the ethics and bolt wars of the day.
What did you say about your partners in your various interviews with Ament, Curt?
DMT
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curt
Aug 19, 2004, 6:20 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: What's the point? I don't see how personal characterizations of Bachar reflect on his climbing resume in any way. Right on Bro. Um, who said this thread was about John Bachar's climbing resume?
Well, this isn't People magazine, or even RC.com community, so the assumption is that this thread is somehow about climbing.
In reply to: What did you say about your partners in your various interviews with Ament, Curt? DMT
Go read it. I was totally honest about what I said--or at least about the way I recalled things.
Curt
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dingus
Aug 19, 2004, 6:42 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: What's the point? I don't see how personal characterizations of Bachar reflect on his climbing resume in any way. Right on Bro. Um, who said this thread was about John Bachar's climbing resume? Well, this isn't People magazine, or even RC.com community, so the assumption is that this thread is somehow about climbing.
This isn't the Climbing Resume Forum either. This is the history channel. Are you suggesting that discussions about the personalities of historical climbers don't belong on a climbing history forum? Are you suggesting that Bachar's personality has nothing to do with his climbing?
It's totally on topic.
DMT
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