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crimpandgo
Aug 24, 2004, 6:10 PM
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Can you explain how to handle the device correctly for us less experienced folks? I have read the instructions and I have used the device for toprope and lead belaying many times. You have learned some things from field use that others can take advantage of.
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crimpandgo
Aug 24, 2004, 6:15 PM
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JT wrote:
As usual, the comments of competent, experienced climbers are getting drowned out by hoards of overly opinionated, inexperienced neophytes, who should be asking questions, not answering them.
Response:
The problem is you are simply stating the everyone else are idiots. Your posts have no meet behind them. You keep stating "if used correctly..." If you don't want people to post crap then substantiate your posts with more facts and less critical comments. If you state read the instructions, I cry BS. There is more people can learn from your vast experience in the field than simply telling them that what they are saying is wrong.
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kalcario
Aug 24, 2004, 6:24 PM
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*So what's the difference? You put the brake hand on with an atc and it catches...you put a brake hand on with a gri gri and it catches.
I don't see this big advantage that an atc has over the gri-gri, and vice versa.*
Next time you're in the gym, drag a few crash pads beneath a top rope route, have your partner tie in and climb up a few feet and fall off. Now while he's hanging there, you completely let go of both ends of the rope that you're belaying him with. Try this with both an ATC and a grigri. If you still fail to notice the difference, try asking your partner if he noticed anything different. If neither of you can still tell the difference, consult a gym employee.
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jt512
Aug 24, 2004, 6:33 PM
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In reply to: Can you explain how to handle the device correctly for us less experienced folks? I have read the instructions and I have used the device for toprope and lead belaying many times. You have learned some things from field use that others can take advantage of.
I pretty much follow Petzl's instructions verbatim. First of all, for proper orientation, the grigri goes on the belay loop, not through the tie-in points of the harness, with the lever on top, not bottom. If the lever is facing the ground, the grigri is upside down. Left hand is on the lead rope, right hand on the brake rope. To feed out rope, simultaneously pull rope out with the left and push it in with the right. If the leader needs slack fast to make a high clip, the right hand slides up the rope and cradles the device. The last two fingers of the right hand press the cam laterally, preventing it from locking up, and the left hand yanks out slack. With practice, you can keep the thumb and index finger of your right hand around the rope while doing this. As soon as I have enough slack out for the leader to make the clip, I slide my right hand down so it is completely back on the brake rope. Should the leader fall while I'm holding the cam open, the shock load should still cause the cam to lock, since I'm only pressing laterally on it with two fingers. Nonetheless, while the leader is pulling up slack for a clip, I am always poised to slide my hand back down so that it is entirely on the brake end, should he fall.
Tips: If the grigri is locking up on you then there are several possible causes. One, is that you are keeping the belay too tight. This is a common beginner error. The lead rope should ususally have a few feet of slack in it. Second, you might need to practice the push-pull technique more. Third, you may be falling behing your partner. Work on staying a half-move ahead of him when belaying. Finally, thin ropes are easier to use in a gri-gri than old, worn, fat ones.
-Jay
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genevieve
Aug 24, 2004, 6:33 PM
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I like to use the grigri because my boyfriend is 60lb heavier than me, so it's less difficult for me to hold him if he falls (but note that I'm as attentive when belaying with a grigri as I am when belaying with an ATC).
And I must agree with JT512. When you know how to use properly a grigri for lead belaying, it's pretty easy to feed the rope out.
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jt512
Aug 24, 2004, 6:36 PM
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In reply to: JT wrote: As usual, the comments of competent, experienced climbers are getting drowned out by hoards of overly opinionated, inexperienced neophytes, who should be asking questions, not answering them. Response: The problem is you are simply stating the everyone else are idiots. Your posts have no meet behind them. You keep stating "if used correctly..." If you don't want people to post crap then substantiate your posts with more facts and less critical comments. If you state read the instructions, I cry BS. There is more people can learn from your vast experience in the field than simply telling them that what they are saying is wrong.
1. In response to your first, non-whiney, request, I have posted what I do.
2. I've posted the same thing many times before. Try a Google search.
3. As I stated in my response, I essentially follow Petzl's instructions strictly.
-Jay
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overkill
Aug 24, 2004, 6:41 PM
Post #32 of 106
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I don't understand why so many people say that they don't think the gri-gri is suitable for belaying lead climbs. I use the gri-gri almost all the time because in case i have a stroke my partner won't die too. And I can whip out the burner and make a nice BLT when the dude is resting. :D
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outdoorclimber
Aug 24, 2004, 6:49 PM
Post #33 of 106
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Jay, You are Brilliant!!!
I only had problems feeding the rope when I was using the device improperly. If you pay attention while belaying and learn how to use the device the grigri is, in my humble opinion, by far the best belay device on the market.
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paulraphael
Aug 24, 2004, 6:50 PM
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When it comes to escaping the belay, the techniques for doing this with an ATC or equivalent take about five seconds longer than with an autolocker.
When it comes to belaying the second on a multipitch route, you get the same convenience from an autoblocking device like a reverso, b-52, plaquet, or gi-gi. The gri gri makes it easier to lower someone, but for me it's not worth the extra half pound of dead weight just to be able to autoblock.
In any case, a gri gri has no place on a trad route of any kind, because its lack of dynamics dramatically increases fall forces on the pro (and of course, on the climber, the belayer, and possibly the anchor).
Someone asked if gri gris are really just handed to noobs these days. I haven't seen anything quite that blatant. but there's a definite attitude at gyms these days that the gri gri makes it unecessary to spend much time teaching someone to belay. This, I think, is the critical mistake. The gri gri should act as a backup, but not as a replacement for good belaying skills and well trained reactions.
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crimpandgo
Aug 24, 2004, 6:53 PM
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Quote:
Jay, You are Brilliant!!!
I only had problems feeding the rope when I was using the device improperly. If you pay attention while belaying and learn how to use the device the grigri is, in my humble opinion, by far the best belay device on the market.
Response:
outdoorclimber, How were you using the device improperly?
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crimpandgo
Aug 24, 2004, 6:55 PM
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JT, can you post a link? that would be very helpful
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alpnclmbr1
Aug 24, 2004, 7:07 PM
Post #38 of 106
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In reply to: In any case, a gri gri has no place on a trad route of any kind, because its lack of dynamics dramatically increases fall forces on the pro (and of course, on the climber, the belayer, and possibly the anchor).
This is worth being repeated.
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outdoorclimber
Aug 24, 2004, 7:12 PM
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How was I using my grigri improperly?
Very simple, I had bad belaying technique. I wouldn't give the leader enough slack, so the grigri kept camming on me, instead of feeding the rope through smoothly. Once I practiced the technique and read the Petzl manual the grigri worked like a charm.
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crimpandgo
Aug 24, 2004, 7:16 PM
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outdoorclimber:
Thanks for the response. I have to further the question though. I tend to jam while feeding the rope to the leader (even when there is slack). Is this resolved simply by a more gentle feed? or is it a different rope feeding technique?
edited for mistake.. :lol:
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genevieve
Aug 24, 2004, 7:18 PM
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In reply to: outdoorclimber: Thanks for the response. I have to further the question though. I tend to jam while feeding the rope to the belayer (even when there is slack). Is this resolved simply by a more gentle feed? or is it a different rope feeding technique?
I think that a more gentle feed would help. Well, for me, that works.
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outdoorclimber
Aug 24, 2004, 7:34 PM
Post #42 of 106
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I also noticed if you have the grigri parallel to the ground it catches less.
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kalcario
Aug 24, 2004, 7:36 PM
Post #43 of 106
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*In any case, a gri gri has no place on a trad route of any kind, because its lack of dynamics dramatically increases fall forces on the pro (and of course, on the climber, the belayer, and possibly the anchor).*
Please explain why it is, then, that grigri's are by far the predominant device of choice for big wall climbing, when the lack of a dynamic belay would seemingly cause marginal aid placements to fail more readily under the impact of a fall. You seem be of the belief that a bomber SLCD in a granite crack, a common scenario in trad climbing, is somehow weaker than a bolt in the choss that passes for rock, a common scenario in sport climbing. I, on the other hand, have seen many bolts pull out of choss with little effort - I have yet to see a properly deployed SLCD pull out of a granite crack. In truth, the only way to acheive a non-dynamic belay is to use static ropes tied directly to a fixed, non-moving anchor; with dynamic ropes, knot tightening, slack in the system, and belayer movement, a dynamic belay in fact cannot be avoided - which is part of the reason grigri's are used on walls.
Also if you're on multi-pitch trad and the leader factor 2's, the ATC ain't gonna work because you've rigged it for an upward pull and not a downward one, all you're gonna have is a rope running over a locking biner, unless you clip the rope into the belay as your first piece of pro - in which case the anchor gets weighted before the device does, andthe leader factor 2's onto the anchor, not the belay device - not good.
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petsfed
Aug 24, 2004, 7:36 PM
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In reply to: ...When it comes to belaying the second on a multipitch route, you get the same convenience from an autoblocking device like a reverso, b-52, plaquet, or gi-gi. The gri gri makes it easier to lower someone, but for me it's not worth the extra half pound of dead weight just to be able to autoblock. In any case, a gri gri has no place on a trad route of any kind, because its lack of dynamics dramatically increases fall forces on the pro (and of course, on the climber, the belayer, and possibly the anchor)....
I really hate the gri-gri for belaying up a second. Wierd lockoff and what not. Prefer the reverso for what it is.
A gri-gri has no place on trad routes with poor pro. I love the thing in Indian Creek. I love the thing in Vedauwoo. It does wonders in Boulder Canyon. Was quite useful in JTree. If the pro is good, the extra force on the system caused by the gri-gri will be a non-issue. Moreover, in the single pitch world since you're probably not anchoring the belayer, dynamic belays are possible, thus nullifying the no-dynamicism issue. Also, if it has no place on trad routes because it can cause gear to blow, what is it doing on big walls replete with body weight only placements?
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jt512
Aug 24, 2004, 7:38 PM
Post #45 of 106
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In reply to: outdoorclimber: Thanks for the response. I have to further the question though. I tend to jam while feeding the rope to the leader (even when there is slack). Is this resolved simply by a more gentle feed? or is it a different rope feeding technique? edited for mistake.. :lol:
It comes down to one of the four reasons I posted. You have to get the feel of the hands working together. The correct feel (to me, anyway) is that you're pushing rope through with your right hand more than you're pulling it out with your left.
-Jay
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callmeraymon
Aug 24, 2004, 7:39 PM
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I've seen a few instances when a gri gri is just bad news.
It's human nature when you become excited/frightened to tense up, i.e. pull, which isn't what should be done on a gri gri because it releases the caming action. I've seen "climbers" deck because of this. I've even seen when a climber was being lowered and askes his belayer to slow down because he was lowering him too fast. belayer got excited trying not to hurt the climber and pulled.. well you get it.
not a fan,
ray
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jt512
Aug 24, 2004, 7:46 PM
Post #47 of 106
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In reply to: I've seen a few instances when a gri gri is just bad news. It's human nature when you become excited/frightened to tense up, i.e. pull, which isn't what should be done on a gri gri because it releases the caming action. I've seen "climbers" deck because of this. I've even seen when a climber was being lowered and askes his belayer to slow down because he was lowering him too fast. belayer got excited trying not to hurt the climber and pulled.. well you get it. not a fan, ray
These are not instances of the grigri being "bad news." They are instances of incompetent belaying. User error. Improper training. Insufficient practice. Etc.
-Jay
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kalcario
Aug 24, 2004, 7:50 PM
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*I've seen a few instances when a gri gri is just bad news.
It's human nature when you become excited/frightened to tense up, i.e. pull, which isn't what should be done on a gri gri because it releases the caming action.*
Last year 7 people died when an 85 year old driver panicked and hit the gas instead of the brakes on the 3rd St Promenade in Santa Monica. After an investigation, the car was found guilty of vehicular manslaughter and sentenced to car prison for 2 years.
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callmeraymon
Aug 24, 2004, 7:59 PM
Post #49 of 106
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In reply to: *I've seen a few instances when a gri gri is just bad news. It's human nature when you become excited/frightened to tense up, i.e. pull, which isn't what should be done on a gri gri because it releases the caming action.* Last year 7 people died when an 85 year old driver panicked and hit the gas instead of the brakes on the 3rd St Promenade in Santa Monica. After an investigation, the car was found guilty of vehicular manslaughter and sentenced to car prison for 2 years.
SEE! SEE!
sure the guy might have been out of it. but inexperienced. i think not.
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kalcario
Aug 24, 2004, 8:07 PM
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*SEE! SEE!
sure the guy might have been out of it. but inexperienced. i think not.*
make that 26:1
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