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alpnclmbr1
Aug 24, 2004, 8:18 PM
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In reply to: *In any case, a gri gri has no place on a trad route of any kind, because its lack of dynamics dramatically increases fall forces on the pro (and of course, on the climber, the belayer, and possibly the anchor).* Please explain why it is, then, that grigri's are by far the predominant device of choice for big wall climbing, when the lack of a dynamic belay would seemingly cause marginal aid placements to fail more readily under the impact of a fall. You seem be of the belief that a bomber SLCD in a granite crack, a common scenario in trad climbing, is somehow weaker than a bolt in the choss that passes for rock, a common scenario in sport climbing. I, on the other hand, have seen many bolts pull out of choss with little effort - I have yet to see a properly deployed SLCD pull out of a granite crack. In truth, the only way to acheive a non-dynamic belay is to use static ropes tied directly to a fixed, non-moving anchor; with dynamic ropes, knot tightening, slack in the system, and belayer movement, a dynamic belay in fact cannot be avoided - which is part of the reason grigri's are used on walls.
I tend to think of a "trad" route as being a free climb and an "aid" route being an aid route.
You seem to be saying that high impact forces are more of a problem on a bolted sport climb then they are on a gear protected trad climb?
You also seem to be implying that the typical gear placement is better then a typical bolt? Or is all you are really saying is that a good cam is better then a bad bolt?
You people that bring grigri's on multi-pitch trad also carry a regular belay device, right?
That means most of the time the grigri is extra dead weight. Oh, and you are carrying two of them between you.
That is 450 grams plus two lockers. Call it 600 grams
That is equal to four mid size cams.
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paulraphael
Aug 24, 2004, 8:22 PM
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[quote="petsfed"]In reply to: ...When it comes to belaying the second on a multipitch route, you get the same convenience from an autoblocking device like a reverso, b-52, plaquet, or gi-gi. The gri gri makes it easier to lower someone, but for me it's not worth the extra half pound of dead weight just to be able to autoblock. In any case, a gri gri has no place on a trad route of any kind, because its lack of dynamics dramatically increases fall forces on the pro (and of course, on the climber, the belayer, and possibly the anchor)..../quote] I really hate the gri-gri for belaying up a second. Wierd lockoff and what not. Prefer the reverso for what it is. A gri-gri has no place on trad routes with poor pro. I love the thing in Indian Creek. I love the thing in Vedauwoo. It does wonders in Boulder Canyon. Was quite useful in JTree. If the pro is good, the extra force on the system caused by the gri-gri will be a non-issue. Moreover, in the single pitch world since you're probably not anchoring the belayer, dynamic belays are possible, thus nullifying the no-dynamicism issue. Also, if it has no place on trad routes because it can cause gear to blow, what is it doing on big walls replete with body weight only placements?
I'll ammend what i said by adding a couple of exceptions.
as Petsfet pointed out, if you're climbing where the pro is uniformly bomber, you can get away with a gri gri.
And at the oposite end of the spectrum, the gri gri has become standard on big walls ... because experience shows it's better to have a high impact force on the rope than a higher impact force on the valley floor, thanks to your belayer having settled in for a nap four hours ago. But if you could find a belayer with an infinite attention span, then a regular device would be much, much better on a wall.
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benpullin
Aug 24, 2004, 8:39 PM
Post #53 of 106
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Contrary to some of the recent posts, it is definitely possible to give a dynamic belay with a gri-gri. So I have no problem with a gri-gri being used for any belay situation, regardless of route type.
Do I use a gri-gri for multi pitch gear routes? No. Simply because it's too bulky and doesn't allow for a two-rope rappel.
A gri-gri is a tool and part of using a tool to its max efficiency involves experience and using the tool correctly. Any doubter out there (who is truly interested) should learn to use the device correctly and smoothly and will soon see its benefit.
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kalcario
Aug 24, 2004, 8:47 PM
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*Or is all you are really saying is that a good cam is better then a bad bolt?*
Pro is only as good as the rock it's in, and that a cam in good rock is => a bolt in bad, and that fretting over grigri's supposed lack of dynamism lacks credibility in the face of their being used extensively on dicey aid routes. If they're good enough for that, they're certainly good enough for A0 pro on trad routes.
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declinebass
Aug 24, 2004, 8:52 PM
Post #55 of 106
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how about you just master the atc first...then think about it and use a gri-gri once or twice and then realize that it actually creates problems....cant let people downclimb, stop paying attentinog...just strait up suck at belaying.
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crimpandgo
Aug 24, 2004, 8:57 PM
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Why wont it allow people to downclimb? downclimb belay would be similar to lead belay wouldn't it? feed out rope?
edit: I am assuming toperope.
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alpnclmbr1
Aug 24, 2004, 8:58 PM
Post #57 of 106
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In reply to: *Or is all you are really saying is that a good cam is better then a bad bolt?* Pro is only as good as the rock it's in, and that a cam in good rock is => a bolt in bad, and that fretting over grigri's supposed lack of dynamism lacks credibility in the face of their being used extensively on dicey aid routes. If they're good enough for that, they're certainly good enough for A0 pro on trad routes.
Then why do not more people use them?
Or are you claiming that it is the freeclimbing belay device of choice in the valley? (and no I am not talking about freeing el cap)
It is a fact that a grigri produces higher forces in a belayed fall. As far as I know, gear placement failures is one of the leading causes of accidents. Your belayer falling asleep should be significantly less of a risk.
I wonder how people survived climbing before the grigri was invented.
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kalcario
Aug 24, 2004, 9:00 PM
Post #58 of 106
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* the gri gri has become standard on big walls ... because experience shows it's better to have a high impact force on the rope than a higher impact force on the valley floor, thanks to your belayer having settled in for a nap four hours ago. But if you could find a belayer with an infinite attention span, then a regular device would be much, much better on a wall.*
So all the wall climbers who use grigris priortize inattentiveness over lower impact forces on the belay and pro? I think not...I suspect they believe, especially since their own lives are on the line, that there is not enough difference between an ATC and a grigri to justify using an ATC...
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madmax
Aug 24, 2004, 9:01 PM
Post #59 of 106
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Gri Gris don't teach people bad belay habits, people teach people bad belay habits. Like any climbing device, you have to know how to use it. Gri Gris rock! And if you feel uncomfortable using one when someone is leading, then you don't know how to use one.
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crimpandgo
Aug 24, 2004, 9:05 PM
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Quote:
And if you feel uncomfortable using one when someone is leading, then you don't know how to use one.
Response:
I think this fact has been established already. but, hey thanks for beating the point home :lol:
edited:
by the way, thanks for the previous answers to my questions. Very helpful :D
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kalcario
Aug 24, 2004, 9:16 PM
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*Then why do not more people use them?
Or are you claiming that it is the freeclimbing belay device of choice in the valley? (and no I am not talking about freeing el cap)*
The question is not "why don't more people use them", the question is "if they really are so bad, and place more stress on the system, then why do people use them at all?"
The answer to both questions is that with either device you have a dynamic belay. Also you will notice that the trend these days in belay device design like Reverso's is towards the device *locking up*, instead of allowing rope to flow unimpeded. If dynamism via rope slippage is so critical, we should just go back to waist belays and 3rd degree rope burns, huh?
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outdoorclimber
Aug 24, 2004, 9:32 PM
Post #62 of 106
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Quote: "Them, Why don't more people use them?"
Response:
It's because they are expensive! It costs about 75$ for them and the average climber doesn't have that much money to go spend on gear.
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rustybolts
Aug 24, 2004, 9:41 PM
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I bought one....never use it. It's too heavy. Anyone wanna buy a grigri?
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jt512
Aug 24, 2004, 9:46 PM
Post #64 of 106
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In reply to: Contrary to some of the recent posts, it is definitely possible to give a dynamic belay with a gri-gri. So I have no problem with a gri-gri being used for any belay situation, regardless of route type.
Using a grigri, how would you give a dynamic belay at:
1. A hanging belay
2. A belay where you were tied to the anchor and the leader took a factor-2 fall.
-Jay
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paulraphael
Aug 24, 2004, 10:05 PM
Post #65 of 106
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In reply to: So all the wall climbers who use grigris priortize inattentiveness over lower impact forces on the belay and pro? I think not...I suspect they believe, especially since their own lives are on the line, that there is not enough difference between an ATC and a grigri to justify using an ATC...
If they believe there isn't a significant difference, then it's likely because they haven't seen the (many) real world tests that have shown the gri-gri generating 3 to 4 times the impact force of an atc. It's easy, in fact, with a gri gri to generate forces in a normal fall that can snap a 10kn wire. This will never happen with a normal belay device, not even in a factor 2 fall.
Why don't we ask a big wall climber and find if (and why) they use a gri gri?
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paulraphael
Aug 24, 2004, 10:14 PM
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In reply to: The answer to both questions is that with either device you have a dynamic belay. Also you will notice that the trend these days in belay device design like Reverso's is towards the device *locking up*, instead of allowing rope to flow unimpeded. If dynamism via rope slippage is so critical, we should just go back to waist belays and 3rd degree rope burns, huh?
Reversos and B-52s are totally different. they are autoBLOCKING .. their auto lock feature is designed only to catch the relatively static falls of the second. They are NEVER used in autoblock mode for belaying a leader. Please double check with Petzl and Trango before killing anyone with their products.
All normal belay devices reduce impact force by limiting the amount of braking force on the rope. Real world drop tests with static belays routinely result in broken gear (Chris Harmston, in an attempt to test ice screws with an 80kg weight and a static belay, once broke two carabiners and partially tore the hanger off of a screw with a single fall). A waist belay gives more slippage than is safe in a lot of cases. ATCs and the like are the carefully designed to give a good range of braking forces with most ropes and most belayers.
Think about it .. if what you're saying is true, it would be in Petzl's best interest to tell us to buy their $75 device for everything. But they don't. They warn you not to use them on trad and alpine routes, thereby eliminating a lot of potential customers. Why would they do that?
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kalcario
Aug 24, 2004, 10:15 PM
Post #67 of 106
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*If they believe there isn't a significant difference, then it's likely because they haven't seen the (many) real world tests that have shown the gri-gri generating 3 to 4 times the impact force of an atc. It's easy, in fact, with a gri gri to generate forces in a normal fall that can snap a 10kn wire.*
Petzl puts out a product that quadruples the impact force of a fall. Really.
So if I fall 10 feet my belayer feels 500 pounds of force, unless he's using a grigri, in which case he feels 2000.
Any sources for this?
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sarcat
Aug 24, 2004, 10:56 PM
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I have one but have not used it for more than 3 years. Don't know why I hang on to it other than I have lots of gear I don't use but can't get rid of.
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climb_plastic
Aug 24, 2004, 11:00 PM
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You can't get rid of it?
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iclimbtoo
Aug 24, 2004, 11:07 PM
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no i don't like them. Yes I've used one. A lot. I don't like them because i've seen them make people lazy belayers
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benpullin
Aug 24, 2004, 11:14 PM
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Jay -- thanks for making me more closely examine my statement. After thinking about it, I couldn't come up with anything more than giving a hop at the belay, which, depending on the setup of the anchor, may or may not be possible, or safe.
I checked the Petzl website and I found that the gri-gri was developed for "indoor wall climbing or for climbing on well-protected sport routes where anchors meet UIAA standards." It is not intended for use in "mountaineering or adventure climbing."
This, in my mind, means two things. One, most of the Waterfall Wall is out (the anchors thing) and two, one needs to think twice about using the device for trad climbing. This is not so say that using a grigri to belay someone on one pitch trad routes will result in death, just that you are using a device beyond the scope of its intended use.
You learn something new every day...
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kalcario
Aug 24, 2004, 11:22 PM
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*Why don't we ask a big wall climber and find if (and why) they use a gri gri?*
I know plenty of them, thank you, they being the source of the info I'm posting in this thread.
*Real world drop tests with static belays routinely result in broken gear *
But why would you statically belay a leader in the real world? The belayer always moves, the knot tightens, etc. You'd have to tie the leader off to a fixed, non-moving anchor to get a static belay.
*it would be in Petzl's best interest to tell us to buy their $75 device for everything. But they don't. They warn you not to use them on trad and alpine routes*
Nope, in neither their catalog nor in the literature that comes with the grigri do they say that, they say they are not to be used for "mountaineering or adventure climbing", which is quite a bit different from telling you not to use them for trad routes, many of which are just as well or better protected than sport climbs.
With an ATC, the impact force of a leader fall is mitigated by rope slippage; with a grigri, the belayer gets lifted. In fact your belayer gets lifted in a big fall anyway with either device. Either way you have a dynamic belay, and I'd rather trust a device that compensates for belayer error or incapacitation to a far greater degree than any other, which is the main selling point of a grigri.
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davidji
Aug 24, 2004, 11:22 PM
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In reply to: Also you will notice that the trend these days in belay device design like Reverso's is towards the device *locking up*, instead of allowing rope to flow unimpeded. If dynamism via rope slippage is so critical, we should just go back to waist belays and 3rd degree rope burns, huh?
With the leader we need to choose more carefully. Grigris for people leading on gear? Not recommended by Petzl. Many of us do it. While I have done it, I don't do it often. Is it unsafe? If there's a lot of rock fall, you might make a case for it being safer than an ATC. If the gear is poor, it's probably less safe.
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jumpingrock
Aug 24, 2004, 11:28 PM
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In reply to: no i don't like them. Yes I've used one. A lot. I don't like them because i've seen them make people lazy belayers |
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alpnclmbr1
Aug 25, 2004, 12:08 AM
Post #75 of 106
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In reply to: *Why don't we ask a big wall climber and find if (and why) they use a gri gri?* I know plenty of them, thank you, they being the source of the info I'm posting in this thread.
This is a silly assertion.
Most "valley" and/or "trad" climbers would laugh at you if you brought a grigri to a trad gear climb.
The grigri is the best sport climbing belay device ever made.
Anybody that tries to make a similiar claim about it in regards to trad climbs is delusional.
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