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jt512
Sep 2, 2004, 5:22 AM
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In reply to: Why? Because you can argue all day long about which knot may or may not be forced through, or become untied by a belay device--but I have yet to see a belayer get pulled through one. Curt
And I've yet to see a barrel knot either come untied or get pulled through.
-Jay
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curt
Sep 2, 2004, 5:26 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: Why? Because you can argue all day long about which knot may or may not be forced through, or become untied by a belay device--but I have yet to see a belayer get pulled through one. Curt And I've yet to see a barrel knot either come untied or get pulled through. -Jay
I'm somewhat surprised, Jay. Usually the second best answer isn't good enough for you.
Curt
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slcliffdiver
Sep 2, 2004, 5:27 AM
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In reply to: Why? Because you can argue all day long about which knot may or may not be forced through, or become untied by a belay device--but I have yet to see a belayer get pulled through one. Also, the first poster in this thread to mention the "knot in the end of the rope" topic (grayrock on page two) did not specify if this related directly to trad climbs, sport climbs, or otherwise. My comment applies universally, in any event. Curt
I already said I generally liked your solution the best. Though I buried it because of my rapping on an 8 pet pieve.
If you could talk everyone to tie in (which I doubt though I could have been more helpful) I'd be totally with you. I'm just doubting this is going to happen (examples at the crag) and I worry about the crossover to a rapping stopper knot.
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jt512
Sep 2, 2004, 5:29 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: Why? Because you can argue all day long about which knot may or may not be forced through, or become untied by a belay device--but I have yet to see a belayer get pulled through one. Curt And I've yet to see a barrel knot either come untied or get pulled through. -Jay I'm somewhat surprised, Jay. Usually the second best answer isn't good enough for you. Curt
Everything is a cost-benefit question. Nonetheless, you have yet to give any reason why tying in superior to tying a barrel knot.
-Jay
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curt
Sep 2, 2004, 5:38 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: Why? Because you can argue all day long about which knot may or may not be forced through, or become untied by a belay device--but I have yet to see a belayer get pulled through one. Curt And I've yet to see a barrel knot either come untied or get pulled through. -Jay I'm somewhat surprised, Jay. Usually the second best answer isn't good enough for you. Curt Everything is a cost-benefit question. Nonetheless, you have yet to give any reason why tying in superior to tying a barrel knot. -Jay
I don't understand, Jay. Does it really "cost" you more for the belayer to tie into the other end of the rope? The rest of the answer is straightforward. If the belayer does indeed tie himself into the belay end of the rope, this is superior to (and therefore negates) any argument about what knot should be placed in that end of the rope. Somewhat more simple and more elegant, eh?
Curt
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alpnclmbr1
Sep 2, 2004, 6:14 AM
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Having your belayer tie in on a single pitch sport climb does offer some safety benefits if the belayer doesn't know how to belay. Most times this is offset by the fact that it will tend to twist the heck out of your rope.
I only occasionally tie a knot in the end of a rope. Why, because I do not like fixed ropes.
Getting dropped by an inattentive belayer is something that I will leave to other people.
Getting dropped generally means that both people involved in the incident were not paying attention. If I let someone lower me off the end of a rope, I would consider it as much my fault as his.
Some people manage to convince themselves that sport climbing is safe. It isn't.
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edge
Sep 2, 2004, 2:48 PM
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This great discussion is now linked into the Trad FAQ, which is now stickied atop the Beginners Forum, so I am removing the sticky status from this particular thread. I am sure with all of the recent discussion it will remain on the first page here until it has played out fully. Thanks Jay and everyone for the great topic.
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miklaw
Sep 2, 2004, 2:58 PM
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In reply to: Thx for posting. I've been shown several ways to belay...but is there any safety differences on if you place your brake hand palm up vs palm down? Or is this a comfort thing? I am guilty of not giving the most smooth rides down so I'll try your "correction" point. Thx again! :D Lisa
I agree with the thread that palm up is best for lead belaying, but in some setups belaying a second it's hard to pull the rope back for friction and palm down may be better
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robmcc
Sep 2, 2004, 3:11 PM
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In reply to: Having your belayer tie in on a single pitch sport climb does offer some safety benefits if the belayer doesn't know how to belay. Most times this is offset by the fact that it will tend to twist the heck out of your rope.
I'd be very interested to hear how the belayer's tying in would twist the rope at all, let alone twisting the heck out of it.
Seriously.
Leader -> Belay device -> slack pile of rope -> knot tied to the belayer's harness
How would it make any difference at all whether that knot at the end of the slack pile of rope is attached to a harness or not?
Rob
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sandrock
Sep 2, 2004, 5:08 PM
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Ok, so I feel like a beginner!! I've been climbing nearly 6 years and that's the first time I've heard you shouldnt load through the tie in points. My mentor taught me that way and insisited it was stronger. WOW!
Thank you indeed for the tips. Nitpicking or not who wouldnt want to give a safer belay??
Thanks!
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j_ung
Sep 2, 2004, 5:28 PM
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Sometimes when my climber is cruxing on a hard onsight attempt, I let go the brake on purpose and yell, "UNCONSCIOUS BELAYER DRILL! QUICK: WHAT DO YOU DO?!" I only do this in the gym, though, because it's safer there. I think my partners appreciate the sense of realism that it adds to their overall climbing experience. :D
(Edited to add shit-eating smiley grin.)
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dirtineye
Sep 2, 2004, 5:37 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: Having your belayer tie in on a single pitch sport climb does offer some safety benefits if the belayer doesn't know how to belay. Most times this is offset by the fact that it will tend to twist the heck out of your rope. I'd be very interested to hear how the belayer's tying in would twist the rope at all, let alone twisting the heck out of it. Seriously. Leader -> Belay device -> slack pile of rope -> knot tied to the belayer's harness How would it make any difference at all whether that knot at the end of the slack pile of rope is attached to a harness or not? Rob
Any twists wil be forced down to the loose end. if you don't use a lot of the rope, you might not even notice. But if you have a rope with some twists, or you put some twists in it one way or anohter and you have both ends tied off, they head for the slack end. IF that end is free, the twists just sort themselves out, like when you suspend a twisted phone cord and let the reciever dangle and unwind.
Just try this-- take your rope at one end and feed it through your hand, without letting the rope twist at all. pretty soon you'll notice some odd looking turns developing at the part between you and the pile. as you keep doing this, you will have to do something like shake the twists further down. Same thign happens with extension cords.
So, if both ends are fixed, the twists can't escape, and if there are a lot of em, you get a mess. Byt if the rope is not twisted much to start with and you dont add many twists, you may not notice anything at all.
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alpnclmbr1
Sep 2, 2004, 5:42 PM
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In reply to: How would it make any difference at all whether that knot at the end of the slack pile of rope is attached to a harness or not?
With a perfect rope, belayer, and route. it would not make a difference
Things that introduce twists into your rope:
Lowering off a standard 2 draw anchor
Belaying and lowering with a grigri
lowering off a single draw
lowering off cold shuts
lowering off of quicklinks(one quicklink per bolt is the worst)
mussy hooks
Coiling a rope
Not swapping which end of the rope that you tie into
Next time you pull a rope, watch how many times the end of the rope will spin when it first leaves the ground.
For myself, keeping twists out of the rope is the major chore in sport climbing.
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jt512
Sep 2, 2004, 6:23 PM
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In reply to: If the belayer does indeed tie himself into the belay end of the rope, this is superior to (and therefore negates) any argument about what knot should be placed in that end of the rope.
You have yet to present any evidence that tying the belayer into the rope is actually superior to tying a barrel knot into it.
-Jay
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jt512
Sep 2, 2004, 6:27 PM
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In reply to: This great discussion is now linked into the Trad FAQ
This discussion does not belong in the Trad FAQ. Belaying isn't specific to trad climbing. In fact, many of the points are more applicable to sport climbing than trad climbing.
-Jay
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alpnclmbr1
Sep 2, 2004, 6:37 PM
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We are probably going to have a belaying chapter of the faq that will cover all aspects of belaying. Putting it in the trad faq for now will not effect that.
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jt512
Sep 2, 2004, 6:42 PM
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In reply to: We are probably going to have a belaying chapter of the faq that will cover all aspects of belaying. Putting it in the trad faq for now will not effect that.
Check.
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dalguard
Sep 2, 2004, 7:07 PM
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In reply to: You have yet to present any evidence that tying the belayer into the rope is actually superior to tying a barrel knot into it.
For those of us who mix and match, tying in is a good habit. Then you're never not tied in when you should have been.
P.S. If we're having tangle problems, I'll wait until the leader has pulled up the rope and I've said "that's me", then I'll untie and let the kinks work out before tying in again.
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jt512
Sep 2, 2004, 7:26 PM
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Here's the deal with tying a knot in the end of the rope: If I'm leading the route, and I have any doubt about the rope running completely through the belay device when I'm going to be lowered, resulting in me getting dropped, then I can tie a knot in the end of the rope. I can do this at any time, and once it's done, I can forget about it. If I want a knot in the end of the rope, I can, and usually will, tie it before I tie in, put my shoes on, or am put on belay.
If you are setting up a TR that several people are going to take turns on -- common in sport climbing -- then you can put one knot in the rope one time and forget about it. Clearly, this is both safer and more convenient, than relying on each belayer tying in.
Putting a knot in the end of the rope is protection against being dropped when you are being lowered. If you will be belaying from the top of the pitch, then your partner should tie in before you leave the ground, so, as dalguard says you don't pull the rope up out of their reach.
-Jay
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curt
Sep 2, 2004, 9:05 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: This great discussion is now linked into the Trad FAQ This discussion does not belong in the Trad FAQ. Belaying isn't specific to trad climbing. In fact, many of the points are more applicable to sport climbing than trad climbing. -Jay
You have yet to present any evidence that this is more applicable to sport climbing. :lol:
Curt
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tradrenn
Sep 19, 2008, 7:44 PM
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I think it's good to refresh our memory from time to time so I gave this thread a bump.
Make sure to read part 2.
Thanks Jt.
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jt512
Sep 19, 2008, 8:48 PM
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tradrenn wrote: I think it's good to refresh our memory from time to time so I gave this thread a bump. Make sure to read part 2. Thanks Jt.
You're welcome. I fixed the formatting of the original post.
Jay
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codefrog
May 20, 2009, 6:05 PM
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Excellent! Part 6 made me question dudes I previously thought were *dudes* in the sense that they *knew* and could instruct safely. Guess that's why I'm here though. To self-edumucate and get some other opinions.
Since words are great but pictures are better... Is this picture at this URL (my own public web server SFW) the proper way to set up a belay? If so my people have it slightly wrong. They bring the climber in top and the break out the top. If I read you right then the proper way is as I've pictured it at this URL
correct?
Is the top-in -> top-out way *that* much worse or does top-in -> bottom-out provide additional friction on the rope which is preferable?
(This post was edited by codefrog on May 20, 2009, 6:07 PM)
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gimmeslack
May 20, 2009, 7:18 PM
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jt512 wrote: ..... Putting a knot in the end of the rope is protection against being dropped when you are being lowered. If you will be belaying from the top of the pitch, then your partner should tie in before you leave the ground, so, as dalguard says you don't pull the rope up out of their reach. -Jay
After not doing much climbing in the past year, I was at local crag recently with my wife, where she belayed me up a single pitch route. Once I'd built a belay, I started casually taking up slack (prolly only a 100' pitch). About the time I'd started wondering why there was some much rope still coming up, I saw the sharp end pop into view just below me. "honey?, did you not tie in?"
She had turned her back and sat down to tie her shoes. Doh!!
Two lessons learned that day:
1) always go ahead and tie in
2) talk to your partner, don't assume unless you HAVE to.
It was no big deal, but would have sucked on a multipitch or somewhere that wasn't a walk-down to base of crag. 
(This post was edited by gimmeslack on May 20, 2009, 7:19 PM)
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jt512
May 20, 2009, 7:23 PM
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codefrog wrote: Excellent! Part 6 made me question dudes I previously thought were *dudes* in the sense that they *knew* and could instruct safely. Guess that's why I'm here though. To self-edumucate and get some other opinions. Since words are great but pictures are better... Is this picture at this URL (my own public web server SFW) the proper way to set up a belay? If so my people have it slightly wrong. They bring the climber in top and the break out the top. If I read you right then the proper way is as I've pictured it at this URL correct?
Are my eyes playing tricks on me, or is the rope going in one slot of the ATC and out the other?
Jay
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