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okie_redneck
Sep 9, 2004, 3:59 AM
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I was rereading "Broken-hearted Ascents" in this month's issue of Climbing. It's about guys who upped the level of solo climbing after losing their girlfriends/wives (funny how men vent emotions). I can see how someone who free solos could up the ante after a breakup. Fortunately, I'm not confident enough on long routes to do over 30' sans rope, so I'll not be putting myself in that kind of situation anytime soon, but I was wondering if anyone knows of any serious accidents or deaths that occured after a breakup. Now, I'm not talking about true suicide, but where someone just thinks "what the hell?", and climbs something that has has a high probability of falling (5% would be prettty high for me). Making it to the top would probably have a cleansing effect, kinda like Russian roulette.
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valeberga
Sep 9, 2004, 5:43 AM
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On a related note the idea of a percentage chance of dying while doing something like free-soloing is an artifact of statistical hindsight. I'd say there are only three sides to the coin: you will not die, you will die, or you are two stupid/ignorant to know which.
I mean if a bee stung you while you were free-soloing, it wouldn't be a percentage-based occurence. It would be a fluke, but you would be stupid for making yourself helpless. If you got on something that was too hard for you and fell off, well, it was too hard for you, you weren't going to make it. If it was within your abilities and you made it, you were going to make it. If you made a wrong decision while climbing, a "guess," then either you were too stupid to make the right decision, or you were stupid enough to put your self in a situation of having to make a random choice. This whole idea that probability itself is ruling the events of human reality is ridiculous. Unexpected things happen, but just because you didn't expect them, doesn't make these events random.
Anyway that's probably more of my opinion than you wanted to hear... but yes, I admit I've felt more comfortable exposing myself to risk following traumatic and/or depressing periods in my life.
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bandycoot
Sep 9, 2004, 5:57 AM
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I heard a story of a man who lead The Edge at Tahquitz rock after learning he needed steel rods placed in his back. He figured he'd never get the chance again and so went for it. He was sucessful. The Edge is a very serious (and beautiful) lead. I believe that there are about 40' runouts on very sustained 5.10 arete slapping with friction for feet. The route is rated 5.11a. The man otherwise would not have lead it.
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climber4life
Sep 15, 2004, 7:39 PM
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You need to have LOADS of confidence to solo anything over 50ft. Seriously its all a big game of Russian Roulette. I get nervous leading let alone soloing.
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cosmokramer
Sep 16, 2004, 12:21 PM
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soloing is for idiots...it's all really cool and hard core until you fall for whatever reason and are paralyzed or brain damaged for life...YEAH! ALL RIGHT!!! That was worth it, look at me now.
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j_ung
Sep 16, 2004, 1:30 PM
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In reply to: soloing is for idiots...it's all really cool and hard core until you fall for whatever reason and are paralyzed or brain damaged for life...YEAH! ALL RIGHT!!! That was worth it, look at me now.
To some, free soloing is the purest form of the thing they most love to do and the ultimate expression of self control. And, to generalize people who free solo into the category of show-off or idiot simply because you don't understand why they do it says far more about you than it does them.
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climbersoze
Sep 16, 2004, 2:16 PM
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After the shattering of one really serious relationship, I drank a little heavier, drove a lot faster, and combined the two way too often. I did not have a death wish, I just was not concerned anymore about the consequences. I can see how free-soloists would up the ante after some emotional trauma. Of course I don't know of any specific incidents, nor do I have any stats. But it makes sense.
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tradmanclimbs
Sep 16, 2004, 3:31 PM
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i don't see were alex lowe has any bearing on the solo issue. He passed away while backcountry sking. Seriously LARGE bakcountry sking but still sking. I guess we should condem all backcountry skiers as suicidal now. Most often climbers who condem soloing are not verry good climbers and have pretty narrow/ shallow experience levels.
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dingus
Sep 16, 2004, 4:02 PM
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In reply to: i don't see were alex lowe has any bearing on the solo issue. He passed away while backcountry sking.
Alex Lowe did a bit of soloing in his day.
DMT
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adnix
Sep 16, 2004, 4:10 PM
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In reply to: It's about guys who upped the level of solo climbing after losing their girlfriends/wives (funny how men vent emotions). |
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dingus
Sep 16, 2004, 4:17 PM
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dmt
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arete
Sep 16, 2004, 6:04 PM
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It always struck me as odd how any climber could condemn soloing as stupid. Don't they realize how many people there are in this world who would condemn them as stupid just because they climb at all?
"Why do you take such unneccessary risks? What are you trying to prove? You must be an idiot!"
Are such people right? Are we all stupid because we climb? Climbers should consider this before lumping soloists in the low-grade-moron category. Such assertions sound rather stupid to me :twisted: .
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aimeerose
Mar 26, 2006, 1:20 AM
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In response to the original post, it's not just men who vent like this. My friend has a story about a woman solo'd Tunnel Vision, with a mask of the guy who broke up with her. They met her at the start of the climb, where she asked for a spot, as it was the only section she was worried about. My friend said he didn't know what she did with the mask, but off she went. Interesting.
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rockguide
Mar 26, 2006, 2:43 AM
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Some people solo for good reasons, some solo for bad reasons. Some could not think of a good or bad reason to solo.
A few years back I was at a cragging venue that had a tall cliff adjacent (Grassi lakes for the Albertans.) Some guy starts soloing a 80 foot 5.7 and looking sketchy. My group was horrified. I reached for my first aid kit and my cell phone. When he passed 100 feet I put my first aid kit away and reached for my tarp. He was knocking off rocks, climbing into and out of dead ends, slipping and flailing. Not good. BTW there is no recorded route where he was heading.
When he finally disappeared up around where the road was there was audible relief. Someone asked "why would someone do that"?
My friend Dwayne deadpanned. "I don't know. I suspect that today was a bad day for love".
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aimeerose
Mar 26, 2006, 4:50 AM
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OMG, I've been to Grassi lakes and that is absolutely frightening. Just curious, did you consider yelling up and ask him what he was doing? Since there was no route there, I would be concerned it might be a tourist or something (since Grassi is a tourist area) not understanding the rock climbing thing. (Maybe he had climbing shoes on though, I dunno). We get a lot of that out in Red Rocks. We've watched a lot of people climb some sketchy slabs while we're chillin' out at the base of climbs, but none have gone that high.
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rockguide
Mar 26, 2006, 4:57 AM
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Yeah, he was on the Golf Course wall at Grassi.
Definatly not a tourist - rock shoes and a pack (for carrying the shoes he wore there). This was planned. Not a good plan in this case, but a plan none the less. We hated being part of his plan.
By the time we realized he was not going to go to the walk off ledge and descend he was high enough that we didn't want to distract him. We just left him to "climb towards the light"
I hope he found that light.
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majid_sabet
Mar 26, 2006, 9:12 AM
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I had been on more ten missions looking for those who left a note and took off to end their own life. In every case they won no matter how hard we try to stop this process. On my last mission I witness as the guy took his last breath.
So here is what think base on experience and personal feeling.
This process cannot be stopped once the person decides that they are no longer want to exist in the world.
They are mentally strong which they do not feel any pain nor fear death.
There is a possibility that their soul has been dominated by the dark side before event take place (whatever you want to name it) and they are been driven to do this task but not on their own (Sort of without vision and walking toward another gate to a better world).
There is a major sign of depression 1-2 weeks prior to suicide.
I have also heard from close family members that some how during those 1-2 weeks of depression, the victims do not feel any thing (like been stoned similar to taken some major drug which they are completely blocked from every event on this planet.
I had one case related to climbing but I cannot talk about due to an active lawsuit. Hope this info was helpful and if you know any one who even jokes about subside, please talk to them and take the matter very seriously.
Peace.
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collegekid
Mar 29, 2006, 5:27 AM
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I am not aware of anyone that has solo'd due to difficulties in their life.
In fact, for me at least, it is quite the opposite--when I am down, the last thing I want is to go climbing (i.e. lack of motivation). When I'm angry I might drink heavily at a party, or climb extra hard at the gym.
Regarding the "insanity" of soloists--i've started to have more respect for the more serious soloists, especially Michael Reardon, after reading the interview on Crimpermag. He knows what he is doing, understands the risks, and trains hard to accomplish his goals. It is not just for a quick thrill, it is a well thought out life choice.
I think it is rare that a real soloist would allow himself to take unneccessary risks, by soloing while in a bad emotional state. Otherwise he would not live long enough to become a soloist in the first place.
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chalkfree
Mar 29, 2006, 5:50 AM
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I solo for myself. I don't need anyone else to understand it.
Although it's probably a good idea to write it down or tell someone why just in case eh? It's all about the concentration, the rock, and the silence in your head.
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zozo
Mar 29, 2006, 6:25 AM
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What a bunch of crap.
Listen to all the hero's.
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scrappydoo
Mar 29, 2006, 7:24 AM
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In reply to: There are people in this world who have a gift, who have an understanding of what we do not. [snip] People tend to fear and ridicule these pioneers because they lack understanding that we are constantly evolving, constantly improving, constantly thinking outside the box. I think those who free solo have done the same thing - they know somethine we don't know, and I don't believe it's to be ridiculed, insulted, or feared. The risk is no different, it's just on a different geological plane. And who's to say that dying is any different from living? What business is it of anyone else's what people do and the personal choices they make, as long as they're not hurting anyone else in the process?
Um, yeah, can we stop the psycho-babble hero worship for a second?
Skibabeage, I'm not trying to jump on you personally here, but I'm sick of people saying 'oh, you don't understand, they're on a different realm of consciousness so its ok, and you can't judge them'. I call Bullsh-t. Free soloists don't "know something that we don't".
As for hurting others in the process? Come on, someone has to go scoop their brains up and put their twisted, smashed remains in a body bag: these scoopers and baggers are usually volunteers and do it because someone has to. Then, there's the family of the dead soloist (Michael Reardon will leave behind a wife and kid when he splats).
Soloing is a selfish, selfish thing-- the elitism and hero-worship around it is beyond me. Notice, I'm not knocking soloing: I'm knocking any justifications for it. There are none.
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scrappydoo
Mar 29, 2006, 7:37 AM
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In reply to: A far greater percentage of roped climbers are injured and killed than are free soloists.
Sweet, nice way to make up stats.
Do you mean injuries/deaths per person per outing (roped climbing vs. unroped climbing)? That would be the most accurate way to compare the two types of climbing-- which is also impossible.
My guess is that, combing toproping, sport climbing, and trad climbing together and comparing these stats against free soloing, on a per person per outing basis, that you'd see a higher percentage of injuries from free soloing. Again, these types of stats can only be guessed at.
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scrappydoo
Mar 29, 2006, 7:49 AM
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In reply to: It always struck me as odd how any climber could condemn soloing as stupid. Don't they realize how many people there are in this world who would condemn them as stupid just because they climb at all?
Lame argument.
You drive a car right? Don't you realize how dangerous it is? You shouldn't condemn drunk driving then-- it's the same thing only more dangerous! So, by your reasoning, everyone who drives a car should idol-worship drunk drivers.
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scrappydoo
Mar 29, 2006, 8:06 AM
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Now that I've ruffled the feathers of the soloist worshippers, I feel I should give equal attention to stupid things anti-soloists say:
That's too easy to even need to quote.
In general (in my experience), most folks who are the loudest anti-soloists are fairly new to climbing and have never free soloed-- it's a knee-jerk reaction to something they see as extreme. Also, I'd bet, these folks have not seen injuries/deaths from roped climbing and therefore feel that there's a much greater separation between the dangers of roped vs unroped climbing than actually exists.
This knee-jerk reaction makes them call soloists idiots or attention-whores. In my experience, neither of these is true.
Free soloing is selfish and isn't a decision made on logical ground (it's a decision based on a combination of personal motivations and feelings). So why is anybody trying to promote or knock soloing using logic?
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