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iclimbtoo
May 17, 2002, 8:45 PM
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Okay, so I've got this problem. I've been climbing for 6 years. I've worked at a climbing wall for a couple of years. I have had some amazing mentors. I'm not an expert by any means, not even close. But I do have a good amount of experience and some extensive knowledge about this passion of mine. I know that a lot of you out there know more than I do though, and so that is why I am asking your help.
My problem is that there is this guy down at the wall everyday who just got into climbing in March. He purchased his own gear and he is absolutely taken by this new sport. I'm glad for this part. I love it when more people get involved in this sport. However the problem because he doesn't know very much about what he's doing and he acts like he does. He breaks the rules of the wall and when we correct him on the correct use of his belay device or how to tie in, he gets mad and tells us we're wrong. He undermines not only mine, but my co-workers knowledge of the rock. What makes this difficult is that he is a friend of mine. That's why my co-workers want me to be the one to kick him out. I think there's another way, but I don't know what to do.
I would like to address this but in a way that still keeps things on good terms and without completely making him feel like an idiot (even though he wears his bike helmet to climb in which is the dumbest thing I've ever seen ) Please, I want to help him, not ridicule him. How do I go about this?
Stugie
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pushfurther
May 17, 2002, 8:48 PM
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i would say give him the boot, but then again i've never been a patient person.
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k9rocko
May 17, 2002, 8:57 PM
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Some people you can't teach.... so you get what we have here.... I don't like it anymore than you do...
Of course, the bike helmet is 10 times smarter than the guy wearing no helmet... I will give him that.
The bottom line is that poor safety affects the whole team. The team cannot function when one person is not doing his/her job.
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cajunclimbere
May 17, 2002, 8:59 PM
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Well it sounds like your friend needs some serious help and if you are the friend you say you are then you will be patient with him and just work with him maybe one on one when your not around all of your friends so he doesn’t get all mad when you try to correct him. Like I said you should be really patient with him for a little while and if he is still not ready to take instruction then it would be up to you if you want to keep trying or give up on him. Maybe that’s what it would take you know, just be honest with him and tell him your just trying to help him so when he goes climbing he doesn’t fly off the side of the rock and get hurt or killed. And the rest is up to him.
Climb hard and safe
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crazywacky
May 17, 2002, 9:02 PM
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Looks like it's time for some "Tough Love".
Take him aside, probably while not at the gym, and explain to him your feelings on the matter, as well as those of your co-workers.
Make sure he understands that if his behavior does not immediately improve he will be asked to leave the gym and not return.
He has to understand that whatever you, or your co-workers, correct him on is not because you want him to look stupid, rather that you want him and other climbers in the gym to be safe.
If he cannot understand this, then the next time he shows up and starts talking smack, ask him to please leave.
You have a responsibility to not only keep him safe, but the other customers as well.
Good luck,
Scott
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sauron
May 17, 2002, 9:04 PM
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Seriously sit down and have a talk with him. If he can't understand that, even though he's your friend - at the wall, he's _just another customer_ - and, as such has to follow the rules just like everybody else.
If he doesn't get this, and shapes up - kick him out, end of story.
- d.
[ This Message was edited by: sauron on 2002-05-17 14:10 ]
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jmlangford
May 17, 2002, 9:04 PM
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Go ahead and go climbing with him. Set up a top rope and let him climb first. When he gets half way up-just tie off the rope to an anchor and leave him. Come back for him after spending the day at another area of the crag!
A couple of weeks ago, there was this girl showing off on a climb at Pinnacles National Monument. She had no idea where she was going...she starts gripping and pants.."Where's the next bolt?" me and my partner Glenn(beerandblood) had to tell her that her right knee was resting on it! Later on, as I was hiking by...she was at the top of the rock. (How she got there was anyone's guess!) There was a guy about half way up cranking on a 5.10d climb and doing fairly well. She threw her rap rope off the top and nailed him, nearly knocking him off. I left in a hurry so I wouldn't be involved in the fight!
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snake
May 17, 2002, 9:15 PM
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Drop him about 10 feet to let him know that his life depends on the way he uses that expensive equipment that he just purchased. If that doesn't work, give him the boot. Doesn't sound like much of a friend to be climbing with to me.
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killclimbz
May 17, 2002, 9:19 PM
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All I can say is that you have to assert yourself as the expert. Even if you don't consider yourself one. I've had to do this several times at crags where beginners like to climb. I may come off as a dick, but it's also probably saved people from getting injured or losing their life. Back up what you say with knowledge of why his pratices are unsafe. If he still continues to not listen to you or any other co-workers, he should be booted from the gym. Belaying incorrectly can have serious ramification for the person climbing and for your gym if a lawsuit should develop. We all know this is a fun sport, but it leaves little margin for error. Good luck.
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tim
May 17, 2002, 9:26 PM
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kick him out before you get sued... one day the guy will grow up and hopefully realize why. If you explain that he is endangering others, and that you're doing this for his benefit as well as the gym's and its other members, he is not really much of a friend if he won't listen. obviously this is not easy for you, but it is the mature and right thing to do, maybe he'll grow up as a result.
it's easy to misunderstand how little you know and how inexperienced you are at first (IMHO) because what basis do you have for comparison? After 6 years leading and basically "guiding" other climbers, I look back and am astonished at some of the seemingly "little things" that I didn't know when I started. I wasn't as cocky as this guy, but several times people had to put me in my place (both friends and acquaintances) and I am quite glad they did, now that I have the benefit of hindsight. (oftentimes I was happy even when it happened -- better to be shown you're wrong when it doesn't matter, than suffer the consequences later. and in a gym it's worse, because his ignorance could hurt someone else who's done nothing wrong.)
good luck.
the staff at Mission Cliffs was full of horror stories where people were f---ing up and had to be told to leave. I was (at first) insulted that, after leading outside safely for years on gear, I had to do things "their way" to get a belay card. After I passed the test and took my first real whipper, I was glad they'd drilled into my head how important it was to not reverse my clips, etc... a lot more important than outside, where I was used to leading.
I know it's good to be safe and all, but wearing a bike helmet inside is kind of silly. (*unless the leader, or the route setter, is/are a knucklehead*)
[ This Message was edited by: jabbeaux on 2002-05-17 14:37 ]
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fishbait
May 17, 2002, 9:29 PM
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You said that he uses his belay device incorrectly and that you have to tell him how to tie in, right? Well, belay devices are really hard to use incorrectly, even Gri-Gri's, and you can only tie a figure-eight one way. What exactly is he doing wrong regarding these two things?
You said that when he wears his bicycle helmet it's the stupidest thing you've ever seen. I don't really think it's very stupid myself. It may not be fashionable in the Prana-Metolious-Rope Gun world that you see around the gym but it's not that bad.
If it's a gym rule that you tie in with a figure-8 and he's using a Bowline then just let him know. If he's using a tuber and you require Gri-Gri's than just say something to him. It's no big deal...
Otherwise, maybe he is right and you're doing it wrong. Ever think of that?
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climberstephen
May 17, 2002, 9:34 PM
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As a former manager of a climbing wall, I can give this very simple, cut and dry advice. All users of a climbing wall, whether customer or employee, MUST follow the rules designated by the organization or company running the wall. It's very simple, if someone refuses to follow the set guidelines, they will loose their access to the wall. You can tell the guy that he must do it the way the gym guidelines state, or leave.
In America, we have real liability issues (hence all the waivers). Knowingly allowing someone to break the rules puts you at great risk because he can always say "They knew I was doing it that way and therefore let me." At the very least, you can revolk his belay priviledges.
I don't think it's your responsibility to make sure he does it your way all the time, even if you think it is safer. But it is your responisibility to uphold the standards placed by your gym.
While under your roof, it's "My way or the highway!"
Good Luck
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morganicclimbing
May 17, 2002, 9:55 PM
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I think this is a problem for Dr. Laura
http://www.drlaura.com/main/
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bobtheboulderer
May 17, 2002, 10:39 PM
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Yeh, that's the ticket...Dr. Laura to the rescue!
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fiend
May 17, 2002, 10:48 PM
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I'm not sure where people got the idea that this person was your friend, but I can see what you mean by not wanting to cause bad feelings.
The problem is (as was stated previously) that it comes down to the gym's policy. If this guy is doing things wrong then he either has to adhere to your guidelines or get out.
I've worked at a gym and had to admonish a couple of people for bad behaviour, as long as try to explain things politely the first time then there's not much else you can do. If you say: "This is our policy and I have to insist that you follow it." and he still argues with you then ask him to leave.
It looks bad on you for allowing him to continue, and it looks bad on the gym for not sticking to it's rules.
It's commendable that you want to keep things pleasant but safety has to come first.
Re: the bicycle helmet, if you're climbing indoors then a regular helmet is useless. Standard climbing helmets are meant for top impact from falling debris and can actually increase the damage if a blow to the side of the head is sustained. The soft foam of a bike helmet would be better suited to climbing on an indoor wall, although head injuries are very very rare.
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jmlangford
May 17, 2002, 10:53 PM
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Quote from iclimbtoo's original post:...What makes this difficult is that he is a friend of mine.
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fiend
May 17, 2002, 11:11 PM
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Woops!
Thanks for pointing that out. The way the first half was worded I got the impression that it was just some guy.
Well, if it is your friend then he should be able to handle some criticism from you
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full-time-climb
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May 17, 2002, 11:21 PM
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Stugie,
Some times it is helpful to get the boss involved. That's what they get paid the big bucks for. This can be done without your friend ever knowing. Might even save his life.
Good luck.
John
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miagi
May 17, 2002, 11:25 PM
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Dont make his actions responsible for your career. Abide by the wishes of your co-workers and "bann him" not kick him out for good. Tell him that your co-workers won't stand for it any longer and that you wish he could abide by the rules a little better. Tell him that once he promises and follows the rules, he will be allowed back in.
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rockjock04
May 17, 2002, 11:39 PM
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TRY THIS
I didn't bother to read all the other posts, so I hope this whole thing hasn't already been said.
Teach him by example; no luvvy duvvy crap; scare the living crap out of him. This could work on either top rope or lead climb.
(need a belayer to play along with this). try to get this guy on a route he thinks he can do but can't. when hes real high up, put about 20 feet of slack in the rope. When he falls lock it off.
When he comes down pissed off have your belayer apologize like crazy:
"I'm sorry, I didn't know what happened!"
Then Have one of the faculty members run up to the belayer all pissed off too:
"what the hell are you doing, you can't use the ATC like! that get the hell out now!"
This is the purpose of the fake belayer to play along. Or you can plug whatever he does wrong into the fix.
Bike helmet: Have some guy that looks really geeky and has no idea about rock climbing come in and go about with the attitude, "this guy climbs in a bike helmet, so can I". at this point when your "Mr. Stupid" isn't lookin have the guy fake a massive head injury, complete with (fake) blood and all. when "mr stupid" asks what happens, Casually refer to his broken in two bike helmet under the rock.
Be creative. Or you could just let him deck out totally. They sign those waiver forms dont they? Let em kill himself if he wants.
Oh yeah, If you try this, PLEASE email me/ PM me with the results.
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jmlangford
May 17, 2002, 11:42 PM
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I am a firearms instructor and rangemaster. Mishandled guns can get you killed, just as screwing up in a climbing situation. Many of my students are also friends of mine. If they do ANYTHING stupid I get on their case. Yeh, they are kind of put off when I correct them but 99 times out of a 100 they eventually admit to me that I was right and they thank me for looking out for their safety. I think you should tell the guy that you value him as a friend but that you have to put your foot down and ask him to leave. He'll be thanking you later. Just make sure you are 100% RIGHT in what you are doing!
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iclimbtoo
May 17, 2002, 11:59 PM
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LOL...I have to admit, you guys are cracking me up with your advice here. Thanks for all these helpful tips.
jmlangford-what you suggested is actually an "initiation" for new staff. We give them a daisy chain, fifi hook, and three locking biners and tie them off. Then they have to somehow make it back down. Munter hitch is the key! Helps to train newly learned skills! LOL
fishbait-just to address some things you had said...about the knot and belaying. yes, we have a required figure eight, so no bowline. The difficult part is that he doesn't want to tie the backup and says the figure eight will hold in the occurance of a fall. Yes, this is true, it most likely will, but since every climber knows that you ALWAYS back everything up, he should be tying a back up. As for the belay device, I don't think I said anything about using a grigri...correct me if I'm wrong! We don't allow non-staff to use grigri's for liability sake. He has a trango jaws and he reverses it, causing the jaws part to be at the rope-to-climber part of the rope rather than the brake-hand part of the rope. Not that this is completely wrong, but the "jaws" are there to help with locking off the rope. He likes to do it his way, we always make him change it.
A quick thing on the helmets...our wall provides helmets for all the climbers, that's why I don't understand why he always tries to wear his bike helmet up the wall. My idea with providing helmets for indoor climbers was to accustom them to wearing them so that when climbing outdoors, it's like second nature to be wearing a helmet. Like was said before, in an outdoor situation, his bike helmet would never be capable of taking the kind of impact that climbing helmets are meant to withstand.
I'm thinking about taking away his belay qualification so that he is penalized but not kicked out...yet. Liability keeps us from doing most of your suggestions, and liability also makes it my duty to keep EVERYONE there safe, including himself. But that means none of the cool "learning" stunts either...lol. I'll keep you all posted...
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sharmagod
May 18, 2002, 12:45 AM
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Scott is totally right!!!Listen to him and let things fall as they will.You can only do so much.If he has to leave at some point because of his behaviour, it's his fault and not yours.
To be honest....I think he's pretty lucky to have you as a friend cause if you didn't care so much you wouldn't of asked this question.
Good luck!!!
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sharmagod
May 18, 2002, 12:57 AM
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Thought I might have spelt behavior wrong.Sorry!!!
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starter_rocker
May 18, 2002, 1:16 AM
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I would ask your friend to prove what he says is correct. Even show him the way that you would do it if you are climbing as a comparison. Sometimes, some people have a hard time admitting when they are wrong but if they can see what is wrong it is easier for them to change. If the person remains pig-headed, then bring up the safety issue and give the ultimatum of did it the way it is done here or leave. THe person must be able to see that each gym has its own rules that must be followed.
Your friend is lucky to have someone look out for them.
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