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roclymber


May 20, 2002, 10:15 AM
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A gym for trad climbing?!
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I understand the difficulty involved in making such a place, because of the wear trad equipment puts on the rocks, but has anyone ever seen or heard about a place like this. I, myself, do not trad climb, but for those of you who do and live in the middle of nowhere, this might be something to investigate.

-matt


talons05


May 20, 2002, 10:36 AM
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Nothing holds trad gear like real rock... That's because this gear is designed FOR real rock. This is the biggest problem to overcome in order to design such a gym. Maybe if you could build a non-flexing steel frame that was covered with a thick "skin" of rock, you could get it to work... Just an idea. I like this topic, hope more of you will post ideas here...

AW


mauta


May 20, 2002, 10:48 AM
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In Buenos Aires, we have a great artificial wall, about 17m tall and 40m large, MADE FROM REAL ROCK, with some nice cracks, that can be climbed using trad protection (nuts, friends, etc).
It is located outdoors, so the problem comes when it rains !! But, on the other hand, on sunny days, it is so much better to be outdoors !!
I will try to post a picture of it...

Of course, it does not compare with climbing natural rock, but i find it MUCH BETTER THAN CLIMBING PLASTIC INSIDE A GYM....

JUAN

[ Este Mensaje fue editado por: mauta el 2002-05-20 10:49 ]


camhead


May 20, 2002, 10:52 AM
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I have mixed feelings about such matters. I used to volunteer at a little gym at my university that had stucco lined cracks, and tried placing #2 camalots in them. they did not hold well, and I was not asked to volunteer the following year.

However, gear placing aside, I'm just going to rant about how few gyms have GOOD CRACKS to train on. Yeah, they are no subsitute for the real thing, but they would be nice. do any of ya'll's gyms have good cracks???


treyr


May 20, 2002, 12:56 PM
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I have only seen cracks in on gyms but not for gear . You could always make a board with grooves to practice placing gear.

Trob


spectral


May 21, 2002, 12:27 PM
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It's a good idea, but I think it would be prohibitively expensive. Especially since most people sport climb or boulder and relatively few people have the guts to trad climb. It might be hard to justify the investment.


talons05


May 21, 2002, 12:37 PM
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How about some suggestions on how we might build a wall that would HOLD gear, not just for practicing...

AW


albertonium


May 23, 2002, 5:09 PM
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I haven't climbed there yet, but the gym in University of Calgary is made of concrete. i have noticed some good cracks on it but don't know how pro would grab the cement. I'll try it out some time and get back to you.

Scott


crackaddict


May 23, 2002, 5:23 PM
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Cement works well!
I do caulking on tilt panel buildings for a living.
We use cams to tie off the bottom of our ladders. It keeps them from sliding out.
they hold good but never taken a whipper on one.
These cracks are fun to climb but I would not recomend making a crack out of conctrete to support passive pro. Because featured concrete could be very weak. And would not be able to hold such forces generated by nuts. Only paralell sided cracks like the expansion joints in buildings.


crux_clipper


May 24, 2002, 10:17 PM
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The gym I train at has 1 major crack as a climb. Only 3 people have climbed it before. 1 being Australias best climber, Malcom Matheson.

The problem is that its an offwidth crack, and REALLY smoothe. It's a crap crack.

I don't think there is anyway to simulate outdoor cracks indoors. Not to the same standard. My gym come close with other features like flakes and pockets though.


vbrgclimber


May 26, 2002, 7:02 PM
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at my gym we have a crack house, devoted to nothing but cracks doh() . in there you and place trad to practice on, but id tie into a toprope before going on just trad indoors, but they can hold a pretty good fall in there


pupjr


May 30, 2002, 11:01 PM
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This goes back to the reason this post was put up, but yes there is Trad climbing indoor. I don't know a whole lot about the subject but check out this website. http://www.bendcrete.com/climbing/walls.html They make features and such for trad climbing as well as other sorts of climbing types. Pretty interesting.


pushfurther


May 30, 2002, 11:07 PM
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i will take pics of my gym's crack..i like it.


Partner rrrADAM


May 31, 2002, 12:00 AM
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Ask 'beyond_gravity, as he says that he leads Trad in his gym, and has even gotten a cam stuck there, and now it is fixed there with the stem ripped out.

That's what he says at least.


jmcdonough


May 31, 2002, 4:16 AM
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Seneca Rocks Mountain Guides in Seneca Rocks, WV has an indoor trad area (small but effective) to teach trad climbing. Tom Cecil owns the guide service / gym an thier web site is [http://www.senecarocks.com]


biff


May 31, 2002, 6:33 AM
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beyond_gravity isn't lying ... I have seen the cam, and have seen him lead there aswell.

I havn't seen anyone take a fall on gear, but the concrete is really solid .. it isn't the regular sidewalk stuff.

The University of Calgary gym is 3 stories (maybe 4) high with slabs and vertical walls. Between the large concrete blocks there are nice vertical cracks from finger width to a bit to large to fist jam, all can have gear placed, and loaded.

There are some rocks in the concrete that can be girth hitched with a sling, and aso hand shaped pockets that take nuts and hexes well.


dsafanda


May 31, 2002, 7:07 AM
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I've aid climbed on gear in the cracks at my local gym. Used cams and cam hooks. It works great for practice. You wouldn't want to take a lead fall on to gear in these cracks...not so much because it wouldn't hold a fall(although that's probably an issue) but because it would really damage the surface.


Krizob


Oct 23, 2013, 9:01 PM
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Re: [roclymber] A gym for trad climbing?! [In reply to]
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If it were possible to incorporate a safe , relatively cost effective, and interchangeable crack feature into climbing gyms, I think that would be a massive leap forward for the sport.

Some major obstacles exist though, and not just from an engineering/design point of view. (I hope some genius figures out a way to do it soon though!)

Safety: Gyms already have major insurance commitments, and though waivers generally protect extremely well from liability, adding trad climbing opens up SO much more potential for accidents and user error that it might not even be largely acceptable from an insurance POV. I'm very interested as to how this works with above gyms mentioned. But I suppose a certified instructor would just do a trad course/lead test just like sport climbing, make sure you know how to place gear, and off you go?

Route setting: I can't wrap my head around a crack that wouldnt be permanent. Gyms have limited space, and adding a crack that can NEVER be changed is ruining prime real-estate so to speak. People would get bored of it very fast, and if you had a whole bunch, you sacrifice the space needed for sport routes. Could and adjustable crack system exist? One for hands, one for fingers? One for offwidth?


(This post was edited by Krizob on Oct 23, 2013, 9:13 PM)


Krizob


Oct 23, 2013, 9:18 PM
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Steel covered in concrete might work to hold gear, not a bad idea. If the concrete chips it's an easy fix. The problem again is having a permanent crack that would get boring fast.


Partner cracklover


Oct 24, 2013, 7:52 AM
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Re: [Krizob] A gym for trad climbing?! [In reply to]
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Krizob wrote:
If it were possible to incorporate a safe , relatively cost effective, and interchangeable crack feature into climbing gyms, I think that would be a massive leap forward for the sport.

Some major obstacles exist though, and not just from an engineering/design point of view. (I hope some genius figures out a way to do it soon though!)

Safety: Gyms already have major insurance commitments, and though waivers generally protect extremely well from liability, adding trad climbing opens up SO much more potential for accidents and user error that it might not even be largely acceptable from an insurance POV. I'm very interested as to how this works with above gyms mentioned. But I suppose a certified instructor would just do a trad course/lead test just like sport climbing, make sure you know how to place gear, and off you go?

Route setting: I can't wrap my head around a crack that wouldnt be permanent. Gyms have limited space, and adding a crack that can NEVER be changed is ruining prime real-estate so to speak. People would get bored of it very fast, and if you had a whole bunch, you sacrifice the space needed for sport routes. Could and adjustable crack system exist? One for hands, one for fingers? One for offwidth?

Boston Rock Gym has an adjustable crack wall. It has three cracks - one fingers, one hands, and one OW. I've never looked at it too closely, but the wall appears to be three panels, all attached to a horizontal pipe at the top. They look as if they can each be moved along that pipe in either direction. In the roughly five years that I climbed there, I only noticed one very slight movement, though. I'm guessing they used the setup to fine-tune the width of the cracks, and then left them there. It would take a lot of trouble, I'm sure, to move them more frequently.

GO


Fred20


Oct 24, 2013, 11:37 AM
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Mesa Rim in San Diego has a few cracks...they are pretty hard if you strictly climb them as cracks. People only lead them or TR though.

Took a class and the guy teaching it said the one crack that was mostly finger holds took him like a YEAR to finish...maybe i'll get more excited about it at Jtree or RedRocks, but it doesn't interest me right now.


dagibbs


Oct 24, 2013, 1:55 PM
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Re: [Krizob] A gym for trad climbing?! [In reply to]
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Crack features aren't that uncommon in gyms. In the Ottawa area, one of the three gyms has crack features -- and it has several. It even has a (or, maybe, a couple, I know I've seen one) crack with steel-inlaid constrictions for placing gear and doing a gear lead (I'd hate to call it a "trad" lead given all the arguments of what, exactly, "trad" means) in the gym.

I've seen crack features in a bunch of other gyms, too. But setup for a gear-lead -- only this place. In my experience (about 50 different climbing gyms across Canada, the USA, and western Europe), somewhere between 20% and 35% will have crack features built in to their walls or otherwise setup in some way. It doesn't have to use a lot of their space to setup 2-4 different width cracks for practice. At the simplest, I've seen what looks liked a bunch of 2x8s run vertically with a different amount of space between each. 4 different cracks used up less than 3 feet of linear wall space.


chadnsc


Oct 24, 2013, 2:54 PM
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camhead wrote:
. . . snip. . . I'm just going to rant about how few gyms have GOOD CRACKS to train on. Yeah, they are no subsitute for the real thing, but they would be nice. do any of ya'll's gyms have good cracks???

It may be hard to believe but the Vertical Endeavors here in Duluth has great synthetic indoor cracks. It's only six cracks but they range in size from fingers up to flaring wisde hands and range from a 5.8 up to a .11d /12a


(This post was edited by chadnsc on Oct 24, 2013, 2:55 PM)


deschamps1000


Oct 25, 2013, 8:47 AM
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Re: [roclymber] A gym for trad climbing?! [In reply to]
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The problem with cracks in a gym is that you can't change the route. So, it may be fun to climb a few times but after a couple of months, you are stuck with the same climb that you have done dozens of times.


USnavy


Oct 26, 2013, 11:07 AM
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Re: [Krizob] A gym for trad climbing?! [In reply to]
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Krizob wrote:
and though waivers generally protect extremely well from liability,
Actually, I think it is closer to the opposite, and some states do not allow ANY liability wavers. Consider what the following website has to say about the matter:

What about when an adult signs a waiver of liability for him or herself? Will that be upheld in court?

Such agreements are subject to close judicial scrutiny. The law frowns upon contracts intended to exculpate a party from the consequences of his own negligence and though, with certain exceptions, they are enforceable.

To the extent that agreements purport to grant exemption for liability for willful or grossly negligent acts they have been viewed as wholly void.

So, it has been repeatedly emphasized that unless the intention of the parties is expressed in unmistakable language, an exculpatory clause will not be deemed to insulate a party from liability for his own negligent acts.


http://www.1800lawline.com/blog/?p=375


(This post was edited by USnavy on Oct 26, 2013, 11:18 AM)

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