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xclimber
Oct 13, 2004, 7:11 PM
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The current issue of R&I is devoted largely to the exploration of the
role of ethics in climbing. If you thought the bolting controversy
had been resolved, think again... I've thus far only read the
article on Dishman Crag in Spokane, WA, but am looking forward to
reading the whole issue. At Dishman cracks are bolted, holds are
chipped, glued, screwed (think climbing gym holds), and routes are
tatooed (with their names...).
Could this trend toward "gymnification" of outdoor climbing be coming
to our neighborhood?
Note: Cross-posted on http://www.tucsonclimbers.org or connect thru http://groups.yahoo.com/group/tucsonrockclimbers/
Jerry Cagle
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caughtinside
Oct 13, 2004, 7:14 PM
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I breezed through that article and was particularly pleased to see that the manager of this site was quoted. Of course, he made his total disdain for sport climbing known, and blathered about how you have to pay dues so that you can be a hardman and solo stuff.
Way lame.
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slablizard
Oct 13, 2004, 7:54 PM
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Haven't got my number yet, but:
I don't particularly agree in bolting cracks, even if having them bolted would push me and other non-trad climbers to climb more cracks ( who cares you said? I agree).
Chipping and glueing is not new and not really something i like, unless you are reinforcing a hold that will break.
Name of the route on the wall? I like it. Put the grade too. No big deal.
Bolts?
Hell yes.
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coloclimbergog
Oct 13, 2004, 7:58 PM
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What?? Why would you want to put the name of the route on the wall? This is nature that we're looking at, and while i think that bolts are fine, I don't think that we should glue or chizzle ANY holds. We should leave nature as much as we can to itself, and bolts are just there to keep us alive. That's it, no other purpose. Labelling rock faces is wrong. Not natural, not right.
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petsfed
Oct 13, 2004, 8:10 PM
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In reply to: What?? Why would you want to put the name of the route on the wall? This is nature that we're looking at, and while i think that bolts are fine, I don't think that we should glue or chizzle ANY holds. We should leave nature as much as we can to itself, and bolts are just there to keep us alive. That's it, no other purpose. Labelling rock faces is wrong. Not natural, not right.
Will you break the plaques in Indian Creek? In lieu of a guidebook, many first ascents were recorded by carving the name, grade, and climbers involved into a piece of rock that was then left at the base of the appropriate climb. Still leaving our mark.
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adnix
Oct 13, 2004, 8:15 PM
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In reply to: Labelling rock faces is wrong. Not natural, not right. |
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ambler
Oct 13, 2004, 8:17 PM
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In reply to: Name of the route on the wall? I like it. Put the grade too. No big deal. Bolts? Hell yes.
In reply to: Will you break the plaques in Indian Creek? |
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rradjc
Oct 13, 2004, 8:20 PM
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A large number of the plaques out at indian creek have already been broken or lost into the rubble pile. There was debate about the necessity of them being needed at every climb or just as a marker.
I personally think guidebooks are useful in eliminating the need to mark route names in rock.
I was amazed to read about Dishman, I'd never heard of something so blatantly dumbed down before.
Chris
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benpullin
Oct 13, 2004, 8:35 PM
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Labelling the name of a route and its grade is commonplace in Europe.
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t-dog
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Oct 13, 2004, 8:36 PM
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In reply to: Name of the route on the wall? I like it. Put the grade too. No big deal.
I totally agree. Eliminates the need for a guide book, or at least takes care of the not-up-to-date-guidebook problem. And seriously, people here freak out when I tell them how routes and boulder problems in Font and France are often marked at the base, but you know what, it's not that big a deal!!!! Most of the time, you have to look real hard to even see the thing. It's soooo convenient it's ridiculous!!!!!!!!
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curt
Oct 13, 2004, 8:48 PM
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In reply to: I breezed through that article and was particularly pleased to see that the manager of this site was quoted. Of course, he made his total disdain for sport climbing known, and blathered about how you have to pay dues so that you can be a hardman and solo stuff. Way lame.
Well just hang tight for a couple of issues and I'm sure there will be a girly-man sport climbing issue. Then perhaps you will get a call asking for your opinion. Haha.
Curt
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ambler
Oct 13, 2004, 8:55 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: Name of the route on the wall? I like it. Put the grade too. No big deal. I totally agree. Eliminates the need for a guide book, or at least takes care of the not-up-to-date-guidebook problem. And seriously, people here freak out when I tell them how routes and boulder problems in Font and France are often marked at the base, but you know what, it's not that big a deal!!!! Most of the time, you have to look real hard to even see the thing. It's soooo convenient it's ridiculous!!!!!!!!
Or, here's a different opinion, from the interview with Henry Barber in that R&I ethics issue:
"HOW DO U.S. ETHICS COMPARE TO THOSE WORLDWIDE?
HB: Better than most, but not better than Britain. The absolute worst is France."
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caughtinside
Oct 13, 2004, 8:59 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: I breezed through that article and was particularly pleased to see that the manager of this site was quoted. Of course, he made his total disdain for sport climbing known, and blathered about how you have to pay dues so that you can be a hardman and solo stuff. Way lame. Well just hang tight for a couple of issues and I'm sure there will be a girly-man sport climbing issue. Then perhaps you will get a call asking for your opinion. Haha. Curt
Haha. Laugh it up, when they call me up I will tell it like it is. And I will even refer to the management of this site as elitist and 'a travesty.' hahahahaha.
I am going to rebel, and only climb in lycra from now on, just so people know how I feel about their 'ethics.' hahahaha
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philbox
Moderator
Oct 13, 2004, 9:27 PM
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Ahhh, ethics, gotta love a civil discussion over a few beers on this old chestnut eh. Way to go guys. If there is one subject which will arouse controversy it is ethics. It will polarise climbers like no other.
Please keep this discussion civil eh. I don`t wanna see any of you kiddies throwing sand in each others faces. Johnny, put that Tonka toy down, no you cannot hit curt over the head with it. :wink:
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slablizard
Oct 13, 2004, 9:36 PM
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Shhhhhh....
Don't tell :lol:
In reply to: Labelling the name of a route and its grade is commonplace in Europe. |
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philbox
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Oct 13, 2004, 9:46 PM
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The thing is that there is absolutely nothing against having a robust and civil debate. Keep it constructive and all will be well, that is all that this site asks, can`t be fairer than that eh. It is when things start to get personal that the management of this site gets upset. Stick to the issues and don`t play the man. Sure target the ethics discussion but if you choose to indulge in an ad hominem attack then this site will take action.
Carry on.
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climbsomething
Oct 13, 2004, 9:47 PM
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I was wondering when the R&I discussion would come out. Honestly, I wonder what took ya so long!
I think R&I put together a nice package, and it was amibtious as all hell. It's not necessarily anything any climber who's been paying attention hasn't heard or pondered before, and for the rc.com geeks, it's a topic we see gnashed about quite a bit. But R&I's treatment was way more articulate and learned (gotta appreciate that). I am sure the letters section in the next issue or two will be lively.
In reply to: Note: Cross-posted on http://www.tucsonclimbers.org or connect thru http://groups.yahoo.com/group/tucsonrockclimbers/ |
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slablizard
Oct 13, 2004, 9:50 PM
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In reply to: Make the outdoors just like your gym, eh?
oh because now since you can read "Astroman" at the base of a piece of granite the outdoors are totally ruined and like my gym? But give me a break. :lol:
It's ridiculous how you guys (IN US) are sensible to the most insignificant things..and absolutely un-sensible toward big issues.
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climbsomething
Oct 13, 2004, 9:53 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: I breezed through that article and was particularly pleased to see that the manager of this site was quoted. Of course, he made his total disdain for sport climbing known, and blathered about how you have to pay dues so that you can be a hardman and solo stuff. Way lame. Well just hang tight for a couple of issues and I'm sure there will be a girly-man sport climbing issue. Then perhaps you will get a call asking for your opinion. Haha. Curt |
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dingus
Oct 13, 2004, 10:03 PM
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In reply to: Ahhh, ethics, gotta love a civil discussion over a few beers on this old chestnut eh. Way to go guys.
Thanks Mom. If you don't like our music, don't listen. Maybe you should give R&I a time out?
DMT
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dingus
Oct 13, 2004, 10:05 PM
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In reply to: Ahhh, ethics, gotta love a civil discussion over a few beers on this old chestnut eh. Way to go guys.
Thanks Mom. If you don't like our music, don't listen. Maybe you should give R&I a time out?
DMT
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dingus
Oct 13, 2004, 10:21 PM
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I would urge you all to apply situational ethics. What does that mean?
Basically, when in Rome, do as the Romans do.
Translated:
Established areas - observe the prevailing ethics of those areas. Simple as that.
New areas - apply your own ethics as you see fit, but respect undeveloped country and especially unspoilt wilderness. I would think it counter productive to chisel the name of routes at the base of power bolted sport routes situated in a wilderness area. Talk about a calling card to the Bolt Detectives!!!
Carving names, painting names, I must say, this ideas offend my sensibilities. Now when that happens I start wondering who drummed THAT particular idea into my head, as me as most of us do not invent ethics but rather are indoctrinated.
I see no fundamental difference between Mt Rushmore and painting "The Rose and the Vampire" at the base of a climb. Both are strictly decorational. ONE Mt Rushmore is pretty cool though frankly... they will likely be standing 1000 years from now like those Bhuddas the Taliban blasted to hell.
A hundred Mt Rushmore's would be blasphemy. I would get in line with the Taliban gunners to destroy 99 of them.
Route decorations, cute little trad plaques in the Canyon Lands, these are decorations, they are spray. They don't belong.
I *think* that is my own opinion, but quien sabe?
If people would just observe prevailing local ethics then the vast majority of ethical concerns would evaporate. But we are a sport of cowboys and that just isn't going to happen.
Now ask yourselves something... would youy druther:
1. Homogenize US climbers to the point we all think and agree 100% on everything, and act exactly alike?
2. Celebrate our diversity and craziness, and even accept those with vastly different ethical values, knowing that without them, we too would be outlawed.
See, to a non-climber we are mostly discussing how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. If you want to be normal and be part of the gang, stop climbing and join the Country Club. Enjoy your lives, I mean that.
But if you are a climber... a REAL CLIMBER (tm), then you will understand that yin cannot exist without yang. Trad begets sport and vice versa. There is room in the tent, even for punk biatch boulderers.
Ethics. And a bowl of cereal.
DMT
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xclimber
Oct 13, 2004, 10:22 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: Note: Cross-posted on http://www.tucsonclimbers.org or connect thru http://groups.yahoo.com/group/tucsonrockclimbers/ I saw that. Not to sound defensive at all (esp. since I have no vested interest in Tucson route development) but is this implying something about our local ethics?
Although I did not witness it, I have it on good authority that there have been recent, strong exchanges between certain local parties who are actively bolting and those who are opposed to it.
Jerry
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ambler
Oct 13, 2004, 10:33 PM
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In reply to: Established areas - observe the prevailing ethics of those areas. Simple as that. |
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climbsomething
Oct 13, 2004, 10:36 PM
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In reply to: Although I did not witness it, I have it on good authority that there have been recent, strong exchanges between certain local parties who are actively bolting and those who are opposed to it.
Even in Tucson, we get to have our fun! Heeyaw!
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