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thedesertnomad
Oct 20, 2004, 3:22 PM
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Having NOTHING to do with "chopping" vs "replacing".... HEY Dan or Ed... how were the bees (if any still) over at Svens ?!? I have seen them pretty thick there before. The weather is getting nice for McD's again...
Thanks
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joshklingbeil
Oct 20, 2004, 8:35 PM
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I think that replacing old 1/4 inchers change the commitment level of any given route. So Permission would be the best thing to do. Did the same person that replaced the bolts on sven slab also add the chains? I bet the shirt on my back .
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asandh
Oct 20, 2004, 8:45 PM
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:)
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epic_ed
Oct 20, 2004, 8:47 PM
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In reply to: Having NOTHING to do with "chopping" vs "replacing".... HEY Dan or Ed... how were the bees (if any still) over at Svens ?!? I have seen them pretty thick there before. The weather is getting nice for McD's again... Thanks
We saw none on Sunday, but then we didn't make it over to Sven's proper. We were over on Changes in Latitude and Peaches & Cream. Beautiful weather, it is...
Dan -- Anthony is a good friend of mine -- I'll have a talk with him about how to proceed and may even get involved in the effort. Permission of the FA isn't necessary to replace old mank. No additional bolts should be placed, and if there are any, they will be removed.
Ed
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joshklingbeil
Oct 20, 2004, 9:10 PM
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Quote" Nobody needs permission to replace old unsafe 1/4 bolts. Those bolts were safe for the FA to lead on, now they're not safe for current leaders. Need permission to bring a route back to its original safety state ??? Come on, think this one through .... " The Original Safty State Was New 1/4 inchers... Not 1/2 inch x 3 3/4 inch 5 piece Power Bolts..... I think old timer Bob Blair may still be pounding in 1/4 inchers? I don't think 1/4 inchers were all that solid when new. Not by todays standerd anyway.
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crimpandgo
Oct 20, 2004, 9:40 PM
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In reply to: Quote" Nobody needs permission to replace old unsafe 1/4 bolts. Those bolts were safe for the FA to lead on, now they're not safe for current leaders. Need permission to bring a route back to its original safety state ??? Come on, think this one through .... " The Original Safty State Was New 1/4 inchers... Not 1/2 inch x 3 3/4 inch 5 piece Power Bolts..... I think old timer Bob Blair may still be pounding in 1/4 inchers? I don't think 1/4 inchers were all that solid when new. Not by todays standerd anyway.
1/4 inchers may be acceptable by some standards... and may maintain the original state of the FA, but not when they are old and rusty. They need to be replaced. Some of the bolts on Sven looks in bad shape to me. I felt much better climbing past the second bolt on Ego trip after it got replaced. Especially when the guide book lists it as runout and ground fall potential. If it breaks, you are decking.
P.S. I dont remember too many problems with bees on the sven slab proper either. I did have to change course at the top of One for the road due to a rather large nest near the top and to the right. Beware climbing it and be safe.
For what its worth, I dont condone adding bolts to climbs already existing. Seems to be happening alot. A number of Queen creek climbs are getting bolts added. But I have to admit, Quacker Oats was my first lead, and as a 5.5 that last section to the anchors was pretty run out and can tend to freak new leaders out. It might be nice to talk to the FA and see if they wouldn't mind the new anchors. It would make the runout a little less. Think like a 5.5 climber on their first 5.5 lead, instead of a 5.10 climber doing a fun 5.5 lead.
P.S.S If anyone is interested in taking a trip up to Gardners wall any time soon, I would love the company. I have never been up there and have been looking foward to it.
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epic_ed
Oct 20, 2004, 9:43 PM
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1/4" bolts are no longer considered the standard for lead protection hardware. It's generally accepted that a 3/8" x 3.25" bolt is acceptible replacement hardware for old 1/4" bolts. These will be around longer than the original hardware and the net total gain is less cost for replacement (over time), and less damage to the rock since fewer hole will be needed to be patched/redrilled over that same period of time.
Ed
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joshklingbeil
Oct 20, 2004, 10:08 PM
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I don't really care if these routes get new bolts. But It gonna change Them from a climb where you are in the no fall zone to I don't whanna fall zone. It's obivious your not as comfertable as climblouisiana and others who still climb these routes with the original hardware. It's like someone wanking out abought the bolts on the hand. Maybe You should not be on these routes. Have you guys done the Tower In the Supes Its a freeking Classic runout climb with a few 1/4 inch bolts Do you think thay should yanked out? Or should you get some balls like the Hardmen that climbed it before you. I think everything in the Superstition mtns. Fits into this no fall zone. Do you feel the need to modify these climbs to fit your needs? Maybe you need to get permission to retro it man for your safty!!!!
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crimpandgo
Oct 20, 2004, 10:16 PM
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In reply to: I don't really care if these routes get new bolts. But It gonna change Them from a climb where you are in the no fall zone to I don't whanna fall zone. It's obivious your not as comfertable as climblouisiana and others who still climb these routes with the original hardware. It's like someone wanking out abought the bolts on the hand. Maybe You should not be on these routes. Have you guys done the Tower In the Supes Its a freeking Classic runout climb with a few 1/4 inch bolts Do you think thay should yanked out? Or should you get some balls like the Hardmen that climbed it before you. I think everything in the Superstition mtns. Fits into this no fall zone. Do you feel the need to modify these climbs to fit your needs? Maybe you need to get permission to retro it man for your safty!!!!
You wanna die hardman, you go right ahead. The rest of would like to live and climb another day. The original climbers climbed on 1/4 new bolts. Not 1/4 inch, 20 year old rusted bolts. I have been on a few climbs in the Sups, and I tell ya, I may not climb them again unless that crap gets replaced or I can place trad instead of clipping. Some of that crap looks like it would break off just by clipping in. Make sure you are signed up for your frequent flyer miles, cause you are gonna use them. :lol:
Signed
non-hardman
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joshklingbeil
Oct 20, 2004, 10:53 PM
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No I don't want to die thats why I don't fall on those route. You would have to be stupid to do so? And No I don't consider my self a hardman just a climber who knows his limits. Maybe you need to become more self aware of your ability. .If you feel you are gonna die on the route maybe you should not climb it! These are climbs you have to feel SOLID on and know your ability level...Is the Hand Scary for you? You guys have been at Pinnacle Peak climbing on glue-ins huhh? Buy a Gripp of glue-in bolts Dude!! And get someone has lots of experance bolting to do the dirty work for you. Then they will be solid for like 100 years. Or Maybe go to Queen Creek and climb that place out before they turn it into a hole in the ground. While you guys are out there bolting away. replace the bolts on Deliverance 11c and Deep Freeze 11a oh and Sidewinder 11a has a old bolt on the traverse that Marty couldn't see due to being blinded by the huge shinny eyebolts on top of lost nuts. Luna 10b and redemption 5.9 also got old rusty bolts with leaper hangers.Hey man I was at the peak the other day and the bees were chill. I think its time fore you to do South Crack. Think you can hack it man watch out for the manky fixed tricam.
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crimpandgo
Oct 20, 2004, 11:06 PM
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In reply to: No I don't want to die thats why I don't fall on those route. You would have to be stupid to do so? And No I don't consider my self a hardman just a climber who knows his limits. Maybe you need to become more self aware of your ability. .If you feel you are gonna die on the route maybe you should not climb it! These are climbs you have to feel SOLID on and know your ability level...Is the Hand Scary for you? You guys have been at Pinnacle Peak climbing on glue-ins huhh? Buy a Gripp of glue-in bolts Dude!! And get someone has lots of experance bolting to do the dirty work for you. Then they will be solid for like 100 years. Or Maybe go to Queen Creek and climb that place out before they turn it into a hole in the ground. While you guys are out there bolting away. replace the bolts on Deliverance 11c and Deep Freeze 11a oh and Sidewinder 11a has a old bolt on the traverse that Marty couldn't see due to being blinded by the huge shinny eyebolts on top of lost nuts. Luna 10b and redemption 5.9 also got old rusty bolts with leaper hangers.Hey man I was at the peak the other day and the bees were chill. I think its time fore you to do South Crack. Think you can hack it man watch out for the manky fixed tricam.
Do you believe the crap you spew bro? You can actually prevent all the elements that might lead to you falling? You are obviously in connection to a higher power than most of us bro cause I never believe I don't have a chance of falling. I read too many of the injury reports on this site to believe I am above falling, even on the most comfortable of climbing.
and by the way. All those places you spew off? I have climbed at all of them and love them. And if some of the manky gear got replaced, I would enjoy them even more.
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joshklingbeil
Oct 20, 2004, 11:21 PM
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Even if these routes get new bolts. You will still be wanking on 5.7. Piss off Cupcake. Go climb a dozen routes at camleback and those 1/4 inchers will seem solid. I bet you have never Soloed anything except the class 4 up Sven Slab. I would never want to fall in the supes doing so might result in death. Just a tip for you Noobs.And watch out for those chossy flakes at Mcdowells. Sorry for the hard feeling bro I guess I must be bored. And thanks for ranting with me.
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crimpandgo
Oct 20, 2004, 11:27 PM
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In reply to: Even if these routes get new bolts. You will still be wanking on 5.7. Piss off Cupcake. Go climb a dozen routes at camleback and those 1/4 inchers will seem solid. I bet you have never Soloed anything except the class 4 up Sven Slab. I would never want to fall in the supes doing so might result in death. Just a tip for you Noobs.And watch out for those chossy flakes at Mcdowells. Sorry for the hard feeling bro I guess I must be bored. And thanks for ranting with me.
I like ranting with you, though, I would do with a little less sarcasm and criticism. dont see the need for it since you don't even know me nor do you know how I climb. But hey, but if you like bein a jerk, who am I to get in the way.
To answer your question, no, I have never soloed and do not plan to solo. I value my life more than that. But hey, if it makes you feel more like a stud, you go right ahead and do it. I will make sure I am not below you to pick up the pieces.
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epic_ed
Oct 20, 2004, 11:35 PM
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Josh, there comes a point on every bolted route that the fixed hardware needs to be replaced. Why do you think you're such a hardman for climbing on bolts that are clearly past their usefulness?
FWIW -- there is a bolting ban in the Supes. That alone is the reason none of the old stuff has been replaced. It's because you can't replace it.
Ed
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joshklingbeil
Oct 20, 2004, 11:36 PM
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Yeah Soloing Require you know your ability level.Rock how ever does and will break adding a risk factor. How long have you been trad climbing for?Their are trad climbs with the same risk factor. The Bolting ban states that no new perminent structures In the Wilderness.
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crimpandgo
Oct 20, 2004, 11:43 PM
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In reply to: Yeah Soloing Require you know your ability level.Rock how ever does and will break adding a risk factor. How long have you been trad climbing for?Their are trad climbs with the same risk factor.
Really? There are trad climbs with the same risk factor as soloing? Hmm. wouldn't it be called a solo then?
Have fun bro... and be as safe as you can :lol:
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joshklingbeil
Oct 20, 2004, 11:56 PM
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Have you ever seen a X rated Climb before Crimpandgo. I have toproped a few because I was not up to die on a 11b X route. Epic Ed I have stated that upgrading the bolts will change the state of mind of the leader as he/she climbs past them. I have stated a few climbs that are hard routes that are in need of bolt replacement. And have also stated these are heady climbs thet should not be taken lightly. And also stated that I'm not a Hardman. Does Hanging on bashies make you a hard man epic? Does Freeclimbing past them like on the climb at Cholla called Mish Mash(5.7) make you a hard man? No... But I don't think Stan Mish would like you to pull out the bashies and put in bolts.I don't think he would like that. You guys need to Relax for these climbs. Mello out Man!
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clausti
Oct 21, 2004, 12:12 AM
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edit: delete.
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danpayne
Oct 21, 2004, 12:22 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: Having NOTHING to do with "chopping" vs "replacing".... HEY Dan or Ed... how were the bees (if any still) over at Svens ?!? I have seen them pretty thick there before. The weather is getting nice for McD's again... Thanks We saw none on Sunday, but then we didn't make it over to Sven's proper. We were over on Changes in Latitude and Peaches & Cream. Beautiful weather, it is... Dan -- Anthony is a good friend of mine -- I'll have a talk with him about how to proceed and may even get involved in the effort. Permission of the FA isn't necessary to replace old mank. No additional bolts should be placed, and if there are any, they will be removed. Ed
Thanks Ed, let me just get one thing straight with everyone on here though. These aren't Good bolts gone bad. This is gear that was never intended for this purpose. Anthony will tell you all about it. These bolts are rated at about 300 lbs. And don't even have climbing hangers. Anyway, sorry to stir the sh1t up with everyone. I didn't know there would be such a problem in asking someone with more experience to remove something that may kill somebody...
And to answer your BEE question, I was on the Quaker oats wall the whole time and only saw one bee. Hope that helps.
Dan
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epic_ed
Oct 21, 2004, 1:30 AM
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Josh, would you agree that all fixed hardware needs to be replaced eventually?
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olejeff
Oct 21, 2004, 2:39 AM
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This thread is funny! Josh, are you high?
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curt
Oct 21, 2004, 2:46 AM
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I am a little fuzzy on the ethics here in Arizona, since I have only lived and climbed here since 1992 and I have never placed a bolt here. However, the general prevailing climbing ethic I am familiar with allows for the replacement of bad bolts with newer safer bolts--as long as no additional bolts are added to the route.
Curt
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joshklingbeil
Oct 21, 2004, 2:51 AM
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Yes Epic Ed Because eventually It will rust off the rock. But their will be places like the Troon mtn, The Supes, and Lower east wall at Pinnacle where the mank will live Forever. Well at least untill someone trespasses to Fix fixed hardware. Ed you should aid Deep Freeze On the thumb. You would have fun except for the manditory 5.8 bird $h!t protected by a .75 camalot. I had fun on it on sunday except for the bird crap. Olejeff If iI was high I wouldn't have replyed 10 times in the same thread :lol: .
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steelmonkey
Oct 21, 2004, 3:11 AM
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climblouisiana wrote:
In reply to: Maybe someone should replace this bolt on Fearless Leader with these bolts found at the top of Lost Nuts at Pinnacle Peak .
You can thank Marty Karabin for those fu**ing eyesores. He did it under the guise of providing "safe" anchors for a boy scout tyrolean traverse from the main Peak to the north side. In reality, it was purely for a slackline setup.
G.
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steelmonkey
Oct 21, 2004, 3:14 AM
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josh wrote:
In reply to: Did the same person that replaced the bolts on sven slab also add the chains? I bet the shirt on my back .
I'd bet my shirt that they didn't replace the bolts. I'd bet they only replaced the hangers.
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