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cfnubbler
Oct 28, 2004, 4:53 PM
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In reply to: The old timers survived without water and electricity.
Yeah, you kids today are all soft. Us old timers are like freakin' camels. We can survive without water for months at a time...Why I didn't drink a drop until I turned 30.
-Nubbler
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alpnclmbr1
Oct 28, 2004, 4:57 PM
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As far as I am concerned, going "nuts only" requires large balls and the experience to go along with them.
It is a fun thing for climbers to do. Many of the people that do so climbed when nuts were all there was all. So it's not like it is something new.
For the new climber, going camless is virgin territory. How would they know that the place they are trying to protect is better suited for a cam instead of a nut? Your safer if you can try to place a cam when the option presents itself.
Being poor is not a good reason to be less safe than you otherwise could be.
People that get addicted to cams in such a manner that they will choose a poor cam over a bomber nut is a completely different issue and it should not be addressed by advising people to go camless.
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dingus
Oct 28, 2004, 5:13 PM
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In reply to: People that get addicted to cams in such a manner that they will choose a poor cam over a bomber nut is a completely different issue and it should not be addressed by advising people to go camless.
On the other hand, there is a certain breed of trad that will fiddle with a stupid nut placement when they could have fired in a cam in 10 seconds.
I used to be one of those traddies, carrying 2 and a half sets of nuts for christs sake! I was proud of my old school heritage and the secure feeling of a good nut gives me pleasure to this day.
But screwing around with nuts on many trad climbs is counter productive. It took a mentorship with a true Yosemite hotdog for me to see and understand the true utility of cams and the rendered my nuts as specialized tools and the cams as the do all pieces.
Efficiency is the key, selecting the right piece for the placement at hand isn't as simple as figuring out which will be strongest. Getting the placement in and clipped is key on hard climbs.
The many reasons people adopted cams over nuts are readily apparent when you start going without them, the cams that is. Pure nut climbing is freaking difficult in some areas, and nearly impossible in others (canyonlands and other parallel sided crack areas).
But nevertheless, I think it is entirely on route to use nuts only if thats all you had. You will be tradder than trad (these days) for having gone that route, even a little. We were all broke back in the day and some of us still are. Despite their availability I couldn't afford a full set of Friends until the mid 80's!
E. B. Shue - "Nuts are bomber dude!"
DMT
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aklimerguy
Oct 28, 2004, 5:22 PM
Post #29 of 60
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As long as your first piece is multidirectional (to prevent the stoppers above from popping out) and as you place enough gear to prevent you from decking.
Hang in there!
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david.yount
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Oct 28, 2004, 5:44 PM
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In reply to: I would love to hear an argument as to why using active gear off the bat hinders your ability to use passive gear and why no one ever says only use active othewise the passive gear will hurt your ability to learn active.
I have many ideas I believe support this claim, but I don't have time currently to elaborate. I'll begin with one.
Beginning leaders placing passive pro spend a lot of time futzing around. Hella lot. And all this time fiddling with pro is quality time. Time spent looking for a safe stance. Time spent slotting nuts in various cracks. Frustrating time spent removing a wonky nut that seated itself and is very stubbornly set. Time spent peering into cracks for a constriction. Time with trial and error determing the best sized nut for the crack. Nuts and hexes work in a relatively simple and intuitive way. Beginners are able to analyze their passive placements at an elementary level. They climb much much slower because their placements require much more time until they feel safe. It's been my experience that up to half of the passive placements of a newer leader are good and that I can't easily improve them. I've observed many beginning leaders take about 1.5 hours to lead a pitch when climbing on passive pro.
Beginning leaders placing active pro spend far less time with their cams. Cams are "bomber" and "quick to place," right? Cams are relatively complex (most experienced climbers are not able to accurately explain how camming units work) especially to a typical new leader. It's been my experience that newer leaders will "plug and go" leaving an active placement that is very inferior; when I say infererior in this context I mean specifically that in less than 5 seconds I am able to replace the cam within 6-inches in a far superior placement.
Newer leaders universally climb routes that are far easier than their hardest follow, they almost never ever fall while beginning to lead, their gear is never put to the test. Newer leaders with lots of cams certainly climb a pitch quicker.
What this all means (according to me) is that newer leaders using mostly cams will ascend their first 30 pitches rather quickly, but most of their placements will be inferior. But they will gain a [false] sense of confidence based on their speedy climbing and all the routes they've ticked off.
Whereas, a new leader on passive pro will labor each pitch and by the time they've reached their first 30 pitches, they will have better developed skills in identifying safe stances, awareness of features that will accept pro, assessing quality of rock, placing passive pro.
I think it's not difficult to see the idea that with a robust understanding of passive placements, learning active placements is a logical progression (albeit with unique additional concerns: prying a thin flake).
So, this is only 1 of the many ideas I've developed over the years, introducing 100's of individuals to lead climbing (as an acquaintance and also as a guide), why learning passive exclusively before using active is a sound idea.
david yount.
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namascar
Oct 28, 2004, 5:49 PM
Post #31 of 60
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Climbing is never safe.
There are places that are best suited for a cam, others places are best protected with passive gear. Having both types in your rack is therefore safer (not safe). There is also a question of style...and economy. Although saving in gear can lead to other more expensive medical expenses.
Sorry for posting such a trivial b.s.
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gat
Oct 28, 2004, 5:52 PM
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In reply to: Let's say you've got a set of 10 nuts. Add that to your 3 tricams, and 5 hexes. That's 18 pieces of pro. So you've got three in this belay, which leaves you with 15 for the next pitch. Hopefully you'll have 3 that fit left over for the next belay. Doesn't sound like an especially complete rack to me. Don't plan to sew things up...
Many are answering as if the OP's question was "...is it safe to climb passive gear only". The actual question was "...is it safe to climb on this limited amount of passive gear..."
I think davidji is on the money with this one. Climbing w/ one set of stoppers, 3 tri-cams and a few hexes could sure make multipitch interesting if there aren't bolted belays.
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climbhoser
Oct 28, 2004, 6:35 PM
Post #33 of 60
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All I have to say is that I think it takes much more skill to place a good cam than a good nut. When I started climbing half the cams I placed were shit, but every nut I placed was bomber. The reason being that cams walk, and tho nuts pop up and out, I could sink 'em real deep and funk 'em into place. I had cams pop on me during falls, but never a nut.
Like I've said before, make do with what you've got, just be safe
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ambler
Oct 28, 2004, 7:31 PM
Post #35 of 60
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In reply to: As was stated before, people who climbed in the old days did so with passive gear and pitons. While the idea that you can safely stick to climbs that were put up pre 1970 is accurate, it implys that you are also willing to climb them in a manner which damages the rotue (nailing). .... If it is to impress the old guys then you are climbing for the wrong reason!! Remember during the period that people talk about everyone leading passive (and nailing) only the "leader must never fall' was the mantra of the time.
At the elite level, the 70s saw a leap forward in free climbing standards. The names Barber and Wunsch have been mentioned; check your guidebooks, there were many others.
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cracklover
Oct 28, 2004, 7:41 PM
Post #36 of 60
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Amen!
GO
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drector
Oct 28, 2004, 7:45 PM
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I don't think the amount and type of gear mentioned is "safe" since it is not enough gear. So what happens half way up some long pitch when none of the gear left fits? Downclimbing is a necessary skill but when it is required, it adds additional complication to an already dangerous activity. You'd also have a tendency to run it out to save gear to avoid this situation. This could put you in a position that you would not get into if you have more gear.
Get another set of nuts. The whole set is about the price of one medium cam. That would make it a useful rack for trad climbing.
Dave
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sarcat
Oct 28, 2004, 8:04 PM
Post #38 of 60
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I second:
In reply to: A very, very nice post. |
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sbaclimber
Oct 28, 2004, 9:22 PM
Post #39 of 60
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Hear, Hear!! Excellent argument.
I especially like the comment about the "wonky" nut, I still have to fight with one of those occasionally.
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hosh
Oct 28, 2004, 9:59 PM
Post #40 of 60
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sorry, technical difficulty...
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hosh
Oct 28, 2004, 10:00 PM
Post #41 of 60
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I really like Hexes. I'm starting to get more interested in climbing with as much passive pro as I can. Cams are fun, but passive is "funner."
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drector
Oct 28, 2004, 10:54 PM
Post #43 of 60
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In reply to: In reply to: Climbing is never safe. Wow, that's a pretty bold blanket statement... I think climbing can always have an element of danger in it, but I'd think twice before I climb with someone who says that climbing is always dangerous. I've had some pretty safe climbing experiences and I try to keep it that way.
"Safe" is a very relative term. Compared to riding a motorcycle, climbing may actually be a safe activity. Compared to flying on a commercial airline, it is definitely not safe. Compared to space travel, it is extremely safe. I think that climbing is never safe compared to NOT climbing which is probably what namascar meant (or my interpretation of what was said).
Dave
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cracklover
Oct 29, 2004, 4:12 PM
Post #44 of 60
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In reply to: In reply to: Climbing is never safe. Wow, that's a pretty bold blanket statement... I think climbing can always have an element of danger in it, but I'd think twice before I climb with someone who says that climbing is always dangerous. I've had some pretty safe climbing experiences and I try to keep it that way.
Climbing is always a matter of managing danger. Particularly in trad climbing, where many of your choices have both an up side and a down side, and the name of the game is trade-offs and compromises. You make the call that you feel is best for the situation at hand, and hopefully you get it right. Often you won't have to pay for it if you make the wrong choice, since there are usually other systems in play. But make the wrong decisions enough, and eventually you will pay, and pay dearly. Trad climbing will never, and should never, be made "safe". If you think it is safe, you're probably either deluding yourself or are unaware of the real hazards you're up against.
Here are just a few examples of trade-offs: How much protection to bring up a route; how much to sew up a pitch; which gear to save for later in the pitch (is that a wide crack I see up there?); whether to have one rope or two (will you be able to rap down if the weather turns bad with only one rope?); what sort of anchor to build (more or less self-equalizing, allowing more or less extension if one piece blows); whether to climb in a party of three; whether to bail or continue on when the gear looks iffy, and the climbing near your limit; how much and what kind of extra clothing to bring if the weather could go south. The list could go on and on.
GO
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dingus
Oct 29, 2004, 4:30 PM
Post #45 of 60
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In reply to: There's a decade missing from your history -- the 70s. At the elite level, the 70s saw a leap forward in free climbing standards. The names Barber and Wunsch have been mentioned; check your guidebooks, there were many others.
Those free climbing standards were BOLD BOLD BOLD in ways most of us cannot appreciate or in many cases these days even fathom. Twas routine to do 50, 75 even 100 foot runnouts on wide cracks in the Valley; they were unprotectable otherwise. When Robinson and company did the Reg on Half Dome all nuts it made the route harder and bolder. It was an accomplishment, a significant one.
Yes, they climbed hard on nuts in the 70's. The thing to never forget is which two nuts played the most critical role.
We don't climb like those folks did much anymore. And pretty much no one ever climbed like Henry Barber, cept Hot Henry himself.
Nutcraft didn't enable the boldness, the boldness enabled the nutcraft. Cams put the sanity of pitons back in play, without the destruction.
Cheers
DMT
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keinangst
Oct 29, 2004, 4:53 PM
Post #46 of 60
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Sure it's safe to climb with just passive gear.
It's the passive belayers I worry more about.
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ambler
Oct 29, 2004, 6:19 PM
Post #47 of 60
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In reply to: In reply to: There's a decade missing from your history -- the 70s. At the elite level, the 70s saw a leap forward in free climbing standards. The names Barber and Wunsch have been mentioned; check your guidebooks, there were many others. Those free climbing standards were BOLD BOLD BOLD in ways most of us cannot appreciate or in many cases these days even fathom. Twas routine to do 50, 75 even 100 foot runnouts on wide cracks in the Valley; they were unprotectable otherwise. When Robinson and company did the Reg on Half Dome all nuts it made the route harder and bolder. It was an accomplishment, a significant one. Yes, they climbed hard on nuts in the 70's. The thing to never forget is which two nuts played the most critical role. We don't climb like those folks did much anymore. And pretty much no one ever climbed like Henry Barber, cept Hot Henry himself. Nutcraft didn't enable the boldness, the boldness enabled the nutcraft. Cams put the sanity of pitons back in play, without the destruction. |
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dredsovrn
Oct 29, 2004, 9:26 PM
Post #48 of 60
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You have some limitations on routes as you know, but for single pitch, or multi where you know the route well enough to know you won't run out of gear, go for it. Passive pro is great, and I use tricams all the time.
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runitout20
Oct 30, 2004, 4:15 AM
Post #49 of 60
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In reply to: Sorry, but isn't that a rather ignorant question? "Safe to climb with passive gear only"!?!? It's not like camming devices has been around always. The old rock-masters managed well without them, so why shouldn't we?
I couldn't agree more, berserk. Using only passive gear is completely safe. It's really a quesiton of how much risk you're willing to assume. Climbing with only passive gear will make you a much better trad climber in that you will be able to find placements where someone more prone to using cams may struggle. Using an all passive gear rack will only sharpen your rockcraft and thus make you more confident on the sharp end.
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bigwally
Oct 30, 2004, 5:12 AM
Post #50 of 60
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I think that I remember climbing all through the 70's with a double set of Stoppers and Hexes...and I believe that i Lived through it...even up El Cap and Half Dome a couple times...at least that's what they tell me...but then the 70's are, as they should be, a little hazy in my recollections....
I Hope that the same rules still apply today.
If Ya remember, In reply to: Where its thin, Put it in In reply to: When in Doubt, Don't run it out In reply to: Summit or Plummit In reply to: Don't Fall Now or We Both Go..
This Climbing stuff is NOT meant to Satisfy a Hunger, its supposed to Stimulate an Appetite....so make Sure that You are still around for the Next Meal...its always the next one that's BEST !!!!
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