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verticallaw


May 30, 2002, 9:20 AM
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I tried to post this topic a couple of times but with no luck.... So I turned it into a article. PLEASE read this and know that it could happen to you.

Mike



[ This Message was edited by: verticallaw on 2002-05-30 09:22 ]

[edit: I fixed a small spelling error in the title...it was bugging me. ]

[ This Message was edited by: pianomahnn on 2002-05-31 20:14 ]


howitzer


May 30, 2002, 9:44 AM
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Mike - a great account of what happened, you are a great example for many of us who could get caught in a situation like this. I know I am very aware of other climbers at the crags, and keep an eye out for anything that could go wrong, and certainly would help others out at the drop of a hat no matter how hostile they could be towards me - it's our responsibility to others in the sport to do that, I think. I feel that many climbers go out with too little knowledge (you can never have enough!) and can end up in these kinds of situations. It always seemed to me that some people try to go too far too fast with their ability levels - like folks leading after a month of climbing?!? I had climbed for almost 4 years before I began doing any leading. I made sure I knew what to do in any situation I could imagine. We all need to remember that anything can, and will, happen when we are out there. Never underestimate the power of knowledge folks.
Congrats on a job well done, Mike!


stevematthys


May 30, 2002, 9:47 AM
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yep, its people like them that gives us younger climbers a bad reputation.


xterramo


May 30, 2002, 9:58 AM
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Hey Mike, great article! Way to go on savig that kids life and giving his friend a stern talking to. I know you weren't trying to act like a hero but that is what you did. Thanks for looking out for others.


killclimbz


May 30, 2002, 10:02 AM
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Mike,

Kudos to you for the rescue. If it wasn't for your quick action I'm sure it would've been a body recovery or a very time consuming rescue. Either way you not only saved his ass, but you saved your climbing day!
Never hesitate to get on someone's case because they are making dangerous choices. If you are around something like this and an accident happens you are going to be affected by it whether if you like it or not.

[ This Message was edited by: killclimbz on 2002-05-30 10:08 ]


verticallaw


May 31, 2002, 3:23 PM
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Hey all thanks for your imput. I hope that people will read stuff like this and listen. But hey there are always those who will remain the exeptionally brainless! Thanks again


toobigtoclimb


May 31, 2002, 4:08 PM
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Great story! My favorite line:

"what you are doing will not hesitate to kill you"

Classic!


starinack


May 31, 2002, 5:15 PM
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Whoa....ya....sometimes I wonder what do those people climb for if they have such an attitude like that.

Thanks for the article....helps me to remember to check everything again before going off.


talons05


May 31, 2002, 7:16 PM
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I was recently out on my 2nd time in a whitewater playboat. When putting on my skirt, I forgot to leave out my exit loop. An older, more experienced (by far) paddler that I didn't even know came over and let me know about the problem. He prevented a potentially devastating accident, as I wet-exited just minutes later. It is our responsibility, no matter what our age, to keep an eye on the less experienced and try to help them stay safe. Good job on your quick action! I say right on.

AW


climbingmusician


May 31, 2002, 7:35 PM
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Wow great job on helping that kid. They should not have been climbing things like that. They were obviously not ready to do climbing like that. Safety is definately one thing that really needs to be stressed in this sport. It is too dangerous of a sport to fool around and do things that you are not ready for. My climbing instructor is retiring this year. The last thing that he told us before we made our hike out of the climbing site was about saftey. Safe and fun climbing everyone.


maculated


May 31, 2002, 8:43 PM
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People are morons. Yup. Kudos to you.


saltspringer


May 31, 2002, 10:42 PM
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great account: should remind us all that with the growing popularity of climbing over the past few years there is also an increased likelyhood that you'll be involved in some sort of rescue at or around the crags. Just remember that the ones who get themselves into trouble shouldn't expect to be rescued by strangers or they'll get even more complacent. Hope to see you over here on Salt Spring one day MIke,

take it easy,

Michael


tylerphillips


Jun 4, 2002, 11:19 PM
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  kudos


jmlangford


Jun 9, 2002, 11:59 AM
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That was a GREAT story! To take time out of your personal endeavours for the day to help some morons out of a bad situation is truly commendable.
What about this attitude-I was recently climbing at Pinnacles National Monument and my partner and I were at the base of a popular route, getting set up. There was an incompetent pair next to us, all gung-ho, etc. The gal leading the climb was getting ready to peel off and was asking where the next bolt was. We had to point out to her that her knee was resting on it! The belayer was not anchored and they didn't act too confident with their knots. they also weren't too open to our suggestions. I felt like it ws an accident waiting to happen. We went to another area of the park to climb because we didn't want to be involved in a rescue. Should we have stuck around to help or would some of you done the same thing? Later, I had to run back to the crag to get some webbing we had forgotten and this same gal was on top. (How she got there was anybody's guess!) She threw the rope off and hit smacked a climber who was about 10-15 feet above his next clip on another route. I once again hurried away so I would not have to witness a tragedy. Was I wrong?


anth


Jun 9, 2002, 3:11 PM
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you know, in the last two years i've seen countless american triangle toprope setups. i've even seen people toproping off a single bolt and a single draw(!) in fact, i'd estimate that every three or four trips out, i see a scary anchor.

nearly every trip out i see something that makes me shake my head in disbelief. you know... backclipping, hands off the brake rope, belaying off a wire gate biner, obscure tie-in knots, etc, etc...

in general, i don't say anything. i;m not an expert. i'm certainly not a climbing instructor, and i don't feel it's my place to try and fix everyone else.

i've never seen a situation as bad as the one you described - a panicked climber in a whole heap of trouble. i'm sure i'd have helped that fellow, too.

but what about all the accidents-waiting-to-happen? what do you do?

-anthony


jeffi


Jun 9, 2002, 3:35 PM
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Jody asked "Was I wrong?" It's a tough call whether one should hang around to see if one can help if something goes wrong. On the one hand you might be able to prevent an accident or help in case of an accident but on the other hand you were there to climb afterall. Maybe the best way to resolve it is if people are receptive to your suggestions/help then give them a hand. If not, then go about your business and hope they learn a lesson and not kill or hurt themselves or others in the process.

I hope you guys don't get turned-ff to helping because some folks rebuff your efforts. I for one would greatly appreciate any suggestions/help out at the crag.

-Jeff


orestes1724


Jun 9, 2002, 3:40 PM
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i hate people like that. people like that make other people think that younger climbers are all like that. its a good thing you were there, good work and sorry about your finngers.


traide


Jun 9, 2002, 4:25 PM
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Scary. Actually, I think horrific is more of an accurate term...

Brings to mind some of my favorite song lyrics:

"Ooh it makes me wonder.
Ooh it really makes me wonder..."


Partner dondiego


Jun 9, 2002, 5:45 PM
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That is a great story of why our community is one of the best sporting communities there is. The guy who taught me to climb (rottenice is his RC.com name) used to say that "There are old climbers and there are bold climbers, but there are no old, bold climbers". I try to think of that when I go climbing. We are responsible to tell others when they are screwing up even if they don't want to listen. The life you save may be your own.
-Don Diego-


jcs


Jun 9, 2002, 7:15 PM
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Nice work vert'. If that kid keeps climbing one day he will really appreciate what you did for him.


janjaf


Jun 24, 2002, 3:31 AM
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Well done, mike, we should all try to do the same. I'm an gym instructor, and in both gym and on the crags i see stuff that scares the hell out of me. Two examples: I recently saw a guy, at the gym toproping his girlfriend in a halfrope, belaying on a fig 8, with a ground anchor that wouldn't hold a starved kitten. As i pointed out that he probably wouldn't be able to hold a fall, and that he was using the gear for something it wasn't certified to, he asked me if this was a rule of the gym that he had to obey, or just my opinion... :ekk:

Then a week later i set up my anchor on top of a crag right next to two beginners. They took ages to set up an anchor, and had som pretty sketchy pro, and when i looked at their anchor i saw that 3 out of 3 locking biners were unlocked, and one was opppening against the rock. The belayer was maybe three meters from the anchor, and couldn't even see it...

As to whether one should intervene, or just walk away, i intervened in both cases, and i agree with whoever said that you have to do so. If people won't listen, then thats that, but accident giveour sport a bad name, and may lead to accessptroblems and so on. We should all try to avoid accidents, both our own and others.


darkside


Jun 24, 2002, 5:45 AM
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janjaf wrote: accidents give our sport a bad name, and may lead to access problems.
Not MAY, WILL cause access problems. As landowners hear of more accidents, climbing is perceived as more dangerous, then more liability issues arise. The two main access problems are liability and environmental related. Speak up if only to look after your own access to the crags.
jmlangford: I know the dilemma you speak of and I have done both, walked away and stuck around. Last new years eve while climbing in Smugglers Notch, VT we had just come down from a climb. A man and woman walked up and we started talking about the climb as we packed away all the screws,ropes, tools, draws, etc. These non-climbers were wearing just crampons for hiking and as we finished packing up they started up the gulley we had. Now although we had moved right onto W3 ice, the gulley itself was still W1/W2 and despite our suggestion they may need more gear, the non-climbers continued. Having not listened to our advise my buddy asked if we should stick around just for these guys or go. My reply was to get the hell out of there. As I hoped they saw sense eventually and started to downclimb, we could see as we reached the road. It wasn't about abandoning them but rather they didn't listen to reason so we just didn't want to see them slip.
It was grossly unfair of them to ignore experienced advise and put their lives and others in danger.
Mike: You did good, may you never HAVE to do the same again. Hope the knuckles don't scar too bad.


otter


Jun 24, 2002, 4:42 PM
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Very well written artical. I am glad to see that most of the posters here agree with the artical. Those out there with bad attitudes make it more difficult for the rest of us to enjoy climbing.
My only experiences that were dangerous had to dso with non climbers...specifically adalescent and teens that were at a local rock and throwing gravel ...or stepping clost to toprope systems..and so on. I have had to deal with this situation many times. Often the kids are unsupervised...but even when they are supposedly supervised I don't see any responsibility happening from the adults. (to give credit where credit is due..it was a young girl that sugested one time that maybe throwing rocks down where there were climbers might not be a good idea.) I seconded her opinion..I had allready gotten hit with the stuff more than once. I will not refrain from informing those around me if they are doing or might do something to put myself or others or themselves at risk. I try to do so politley..and explain why. And I have learned tjhat going straight to the kids in this particular area is much more effective that searching out there parents. Anyway... I am glad to know there are others that value this sport and that are wiling to go a little farther to make it a safe and enjoyable one.
Happy and SAFE climbing, indeed!


rockmonkey


Aug 11, 2002, 9:47 PM
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Thanks for that great article. it never hurts to be reminded to always triple check everything you do out there. your actions most definetely saved that kids life and hopefully taught everyone in his party a lesson about responsible climbing.

as someone who is relatively new to the sport (been at it for about a year and a half) i always appreciate advice from more experienced climbers both in the gym and at the crags. i can't even imagine doing this without learning and practicing everything there is to know as much as possible BEFORE
getting near a crag thanks again for that great contribution


canrocker


Jan 4, 2003, 7:32 PM
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Mike,
A great article on the tragedies that could befall any one of us. And it is true that younger climbers (myself one of them) are all too often placed in such a position. I only hope that young kid is grateful for your selfless gesture and that his dumbass buddies got a spoonful of maturity.
And to everybody else: Follow Mike's example; a cool head and quick response are 2 of your most valuable pieces of gear!
-CR

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