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estherator
Nov 30, 2004, 4:29 PM
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Really just a long winded boulder problem? It's been so long since I've really been into sport-I've been bouldering and trad climbing the past year-that I've been wondering if I'll ever feel the impulse to get back on a rope for sport.
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kalcario
Nov 30, 2004, 4:35 PM
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You know how most of the best boulder problems are overhanging?
Guess what...most of the best roped climbs are too.
But by all means, stick to your trad guns...don't be a little piss-ant boulderer all your life...
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clausti
Nov 30, 2004, 4:40 PM
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edit: delete.
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caughtinside
Nov 30, 2004, 4:42 PM
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Well, if you can't see how a 30m overhang would be fun, then yeah, maybe sport climbing isn't for you. 8^)
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snars
Nov 30, 2004, 4:57 PM
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In reply to: Really just a long winded boulder problem? It's been so long since I've really been into sport-I've been bouldering and trad climbing the past year-that I've been wondering if I'll ever feel the impulse to get back on a rope for sport. |
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t-dog
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Nov 30, 2004, 5:11 PM
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In reply to: we could just as easily say that a typical trad route is nothing but an easy sport route with mind-f--- clips.
True, but at lest you get to clip from holds you can sort of rest on, as opposed to sport climbing where you often times get tired clipping
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overlord
Nov 30, 2004, 5:16 PM
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youre comparing apples and oranges here. typical sport climb requres more endurance than a boulder problem. its like 5 or 6+ boulder problems in a row. trad is kinda like sport just clipping takes longer (and isnt 99%+ safe).
no form of climbig is "better". enjoy whatever you like. who knows, maybe youre the next aid wiz that the climbing world will gawk at hes accomplishments.
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jcr
Nov 30, 2004, 5:22 PM
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Climbing will always be climbing... no matter in what package it comes in. Dont know why people bother and go through all the trouble of critizising each category of a sport we love, instead of enjoying it. Any type of climbing has its own type of challenge.
Hell, no matter which type of climbing Im doing... I enjoy it. 8^)
JC
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photon
Nov 30, 2004, 5:27 PM
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"I hear you..sport just isn't Real Climbing, it lacks the Zen of bouldering or trad "
I hear you, you just suck REALly bad at sport climbing, that's why it isn't Zen to yoiu
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crackmd
Nov 30, 2004, 5:37 PM
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I am constantly going through phases in my climbing between sport and trad. Never been into bouldering except I love traversing; I like being on route for long periods of time. Both types of climbing (sport and trad)seem to complement each other and one could say the same about bouldering with trad. Doing a wide variety of climbing makes you a stronger climber in each discipline. With more experience the distinction between types of climbing become much greyer. In saying this I mean that there have been countless occasions when on a "sport" route I have used a key fingerlock or jam to rest on allowing me to recover for a crux. On the flip side it not uncommon for me to use a drop knee or flag to span through a difficult span of crack. Sure placing pro adds an extra challenge, but that is mitigated with experience and choosing well-protected routes. Bouldering will definitely help your trad climbing and probably vise versa. Sport climbing will probably augment your bouldering and trad climbing, but there is no reason to do it if you are not into it.
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subtle
Nov 30, 2004, 5:38 PM
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Ahhhh, just to get to the crux of the matter, as it were...all together now:
1. Whatever things I climb are spiritual/rad/stylish and your stuff is just wanking/boring/easy.
2. You need true grit and a large manly...skill set...to do my style of climbing, whereas yours is practiced by morons/degenerates/fat uncool people.
3. Bouldering is obviously for middle school drop-outs that can't afford food or attract members of the opposite sex.
4. Sport climbing is obviously for spandex-clad posuers who don't like danger and probably use hair mousse.
5. Trad is obviously for old fat people who can't climb anything hard and therefore try to die from shame by never clipping any pro.
6. Ice climbing is obviously for people who aspired to be evil villians, but never got the whole cape and sidekick thing together.
As patently uncool as climbers are, it's amazing the parking lot at the crag is so full...
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crackmd
Nov 30, 2004, 5:54 PM
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In reply to: trad is kinda like sport just clipping takes longer (and isnt 99%+ safe).
I think this is an oversimplification. Trad climbing done safely and competently is just as safe as sport climbing. Most people have to drop down 2 to 4 numbers from their sport limits to achieve this competence. If you don't trust your gear then obviously the perception will be that the climbing is unsafe. There is no reason to think that a well-placed stopper or cam in good rock is any less bomber than a bolt. It takes a few years of trad climbing for most people to realize this and start to push their limits on trad climbs.
The other distinction comes between sport climbs and trad-bolted face climbs. There is no doubt that there is a psychological difference. On ground up/trad bolted faces it seems like you are always climbing above your pro as opposed to sport climbs where there are usually enough bolts to keep you from getting scared.
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climb_plastic
Nov 30, 2004, 6:59 PM
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In reply to: Trad climbing done safely and competently is just as safe as sport climbing.
Now you just took away the trad climbers excuse for climbing 5.8s max.
I think the three disciplines, bouldering/sport/trad, are different in how much power and endurance you need. If you have a lot of power but less endurance then you'll be good at bouldering. If you have a good combination of both power and endurance then sport would be a good choice for you. If you have no power and no endurance then you can climb trad and climb 5.8s....oh, but they're mentally tough 5.8s! J/K.
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moroneyp
Dec 2, 2004, 1:55 PM
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In reply to: Well, if you can't see how a 30m overhang would be fun, then yeah, maybe sport climbing isn't for you. 8^)
Speaking as a boulder...
For the love of God man, how does anyone find a 30m overhang fun?? :?
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moroneyp
Dec 2, 2004, 1:57 PM
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In reply to: Ahhhh, just to get to the crux of the matter, as it were...all together now: 1. Whatever things I climb are spiritual/rad/stylish and your stuff is just wanking/boring/easy. 2. You need true grit and a large manly...skill set...to do my style of climbing, whereas yours is practiced by morons/degenerates/fat uncool people. 3. Bouldering is obviously for middle school drop-outs that can't afford food or attract members of the opposite sex. 4. Sport climbing is obviously for spandex-clad posuers who don't like danger and probably use hair mousse. 5. Trad is obviously for old fat people who can't climb anything hard and therefore try to die from shame by never clipping any pro. 6. Ice climbing is obviously for people who aspired to be evil villians, but never got the whole cape and sidekick thing together. As patently uncool as climbers are, it's amazing the parking lot at the crag is so full...
Brilliant... Its the best answer i've heard to all these flame wars over the different types of climbing!!
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illimaniman
Dec 2, 2004, 2:28 PM
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In reply to: Speaking as a boulder...
That's funny.
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moroneyp
Dec 2, 2004, 3:24 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: Speaking as a boulder... That's funny. |
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ikellen
Dec 3, 2004, 5:15 AM
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I think bouldering is alot different then sport climbing, or atleast the climbers are different. Almost all the people I know that boulder alot hate leading, and they usually get pumped out quickly on sport routes (i.e they have no endurance). I'm talking like after two clips on routes that are far easier than the boulder problems they climb. So sport climbing isnt just roped bouldering, it is climbing actual routes.
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glyrocks
Dec 3, 2004, 5:29 AM
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Has anyone seen that dead horse I was beating?
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cgailey
Dec 3, 2004, 6:43 AM
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In reply to: Has anyone seen that dead horse I was beating?
You mean this one :deadhorse: ?
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healyje
Dec 3, 2004, 11:21 AM
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Having watched "sport" climbing evolve from the beginning, I've always felt the the real signature of sport climbing isn't the form of protection, but rather the legitimazation of hangdogging. What really defines sport climbing is the style ethic (hanging), not the pro.
The prevailing trad ethic was always falling - no hang[dogg]ing allowed. Sport climbing 'bailed' on that convention and while they were at it simply dispensed with trad pro as a distraction as well (but then, only about half or less of trad climbers back then were ever really good, comfortable, and confident with pro anyway). But the distinction between falling and hanging is really what's at the heart of things.
This key distinction is what estherator was referring to when s/he posed this question to begin with and I agree with their perception. I've always considered sport climbing to be a form of "Aerial Bouldering" in that by hanging you are simply "bringing the ground up" with you as you go. I've also always wished that routes done with this "sport" style ethic were designated as such with the addition of an "AB", "S", or "H" style attribute, e.g. 5.11c (AB), so you'd know whether a route was put up with a [trad] clean or sport ethic (regardless of whether you protected the route with gear or bolts). I believe that would have gone a long way to calming the initial rift between the two camps (over style that is - bolting is another matter altogether...).
We old guys aren't stupid either and have always been willing to acknowledge that it [generally] isn't possible to put up quality new routes with a trad ethic (onsight, ground up, no cleaning, no preplacement of gear, no previewing, and *especially* - no hanging) when you're playing in the 5.12+ and above neighborhood. But what I think has been disheartening to a lot of old trad climbers is the general loss of that "no hanging" style ethic and the [retro-]application of hang[dogg]ing from extreme routes where it has obvious legitimacy back on to more pedestrian routes (5.0-5.11) where, from that 'old-timey' perspective, it has none at all. [Nothing is harder on an old trad purist than watching folks hang all over a 5.8 - bolted or trad protected...]
This is a radical shift in mentality and approach that is best evidenced over decades - in the old days you went to a place like Eldorado or the Gunks and you heard people yelling "falling" all day long, whereas now it's a pretty uniform chorus of "Take" - and that from folks using trad gear as well as sport. If you aren't an old person who was climbing in those days you can't really perceive how pronounced the difference is today.
Many of us believe that two decades of gyms and "Take" have led to very different perception of what climbing is all about. We see more and more folks whose first climbing experience was indoors simply looking to replicate their [absolutely, positively safe, gearless] gym experience outside and are ready, willing, and able to shape (bolt) the rock into gym-like submission to get it. And that in a nutshell, and to answer jcr's question earlier in this thread, is why sometimes we can't simply "always get along...".
[P.S. Trad or sport, the only thing better than a 30M overhang is a 30M overhang with 4M roof at the end of it...]
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glyrocks
Dec 3, 2004, 3:37 PM
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Why yes, I do believe that is the one.
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fracture
Dec 3, 2004, 3:42 PM
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In reply to: Having watched "sport" climbing evolve from the beginning, I've always felt the the real signature of sport climbing isn't the form of protection, but rather the legitimazation of hangdogging. What really defines sport climbing is the style ethic (hanging), not the pro.
I generally agree; but the other factor is well-protected, safe routes (with fixed gear).
When I climb on a well-protected gear route, I essentially sport climb---take falls, hang, work moves, etc. I'm sure that totally pisses you off, too. :lol:
In reply to: The prevailing trad ethic was always falling - no hang[dogg]ing allowed.
Oh, but wait. What about aid? Is the Salathe not trad? Robbins was a hangdog!
In reply to: This is a radical shift in mentality and approach that is best evidenced over decades - in the old days you went to a place like Eldorado or the Gunks and you heard people yelling "falling" all day long, whereas now it's a pretty uniform chorus of "Take" - and that from folks using trad gear as well as sport. If you aren't an old person who was climbing in those days you can't really perceive how pronounced the difference is today.
Sport ethics have won (even on "trad" climbs) for a reason---your way doesn't make logical sense. Ground up? But I can freaking walk to the top of the cliff! No hanging? But I'll redpoint it more than twice as fast. Don't fall? Then why would I bother to clip any pro? Wtf?
Your way of climbing is obsolete and more contrived. Most modern climbers are interested in the climbing. That is, the movement on the rock. We don't care about the neo-random "ethical" rules of days past.
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healyje
Dec 3, 2004, 5:23 PM
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In reply to: I generally agree; but the other factor is well-protected, safe routes (with fixed gear). When I climb on a well-protected gear route, I essentially sport climb---take falls, hang, work moves, etc. I'm sure that totally pisses you off, too. :lol:
Again, it's a style ethic, but one that many of us feel essentially erodes the development of confidence, courage, and boldness. While more and more people climb, a smaller and smaller percentage of them have a sense of adventure, bold ethics, and respect for the rock.
In reply to: Oh, but wait. What about aid? Is the Salathe not trad? Robbins was a hangdog!
Fracture, we've had this discussion before - aid is aid, free climbing is free climbing - aid is what we do to move up rock at the end of the free climbing road. As our collective abilities evolve aid routes get freed. Aid is completely legitimate and if your average sport climber is nervous or scared of trad climbing, than the odds of them wandering into real aid territory are pretty damn slim.
In reply to: Sport ethics have won (even on "trad" climbs) for a reason---your way doesn't make logical sense. Ground up? But I can freaking walk to the top of the cliff! No hanging? But I'll redpoint it more than twice as fast. Don't fall? Then why would I bother to clip any pro? Wtf?
So has McDonalds and obesity won for a reason - your way doesn't make logical sense. Shop for food? But I can freaking just drive thru the window! Cook? But I'll eat it more than twice as fast. Stay in shape? Then why would I bother to eat at all? wtf?
In reply to: Your way of climbing is obsolete and more contrived. Most modern climbers are interested in the climbing. That is, the movement on the rock. We don't care about the neo-random "ethical" rules of days past.
Or your way of climbing is suburban and more banal. Most modern climbers are only interested in a one dimensional, simple vs. complex, unintegrated (why golly, then I'd have to learn to think, climb, and be bold all at the same time). If we still had those neo-random "ethical" rules of days past we wouldn't have access problems, crowds, or those yellow and red "billion bolts sold" signs at the entrance to every climbing area...
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