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crimpandgo


Dec 6, 2004, 11:32 AM
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Most Trad climbers do a heck of a lot better at sports when they try it, than do sports climbers at Trad.

What planet are you from?

Even most trad climbers admit that the opposite is the case.

No, I think you will infact find, trad climbers do actually make more progress in sports than do sports in Trad. That is because trad originated climbers have the technical knowledge + the strength + stamina for sports climbing, whereas most sports originated climbers do not have the knowledge to place gear safely.

The only thing which would further delay a trad climber in making progress in sports is their onsight ethic, but then on the other hand a sports climber trying to readpoint a trad climb on poorly placed gear (cos they haven't the experience to place it properly) is more likely to get seriously injured, and put out the game for good.

These statements are totally unfounded and cannot be supported. You should place the disclaimer that the above statements are your opinion because I am sure there are many folks out there that will prove your statements to be inaccuate.


I don't personally care about this subject, but to imply one type of climber/climbing type is better than another is ludicrous and impossible to support. If you talked about specific climbers maybe your arguements would be more meaningful/


photon


Dec 6, 2004, 11:33 AM
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Here's what I said:

" I don't know I onsited Max Factor and I can think of a few sport climbs of that grade that I haven't onsited. So now what?"

I saw no need to make a detailed post to explain everything to someone like yourself who doesn't have a clue what we were talking about. Notice, fshizzle's comments above, seems he knew exactly what I was talking about. Hmm, seems he had little trouble understanding my post, because he has been to Vedauwoo. Therefore, since I wasn't addressing you, you've never been to Vedauwoo and don't seem to be able to type Max Factor into the route database on this website, I can assure you that no quotations or other grammatical symbology I offer will cure your need to spew regardless of content and general laziness.


allan_thomson


Dec 6, 2004, 12:00 PM
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These statements are totally unfounded and cannot be supported. You should place the disclaimer that the above statements are your opinion because I am sure there are many folks out there that will prove your statements to be inaccuate.

Explain what skills are needed in sports climbing, that can't be found in Trad climbing?

The moves are the same, it is just that sports is more dynamic, whereas trad involves a lot of hanging around placing gear. The techniques required to make say for example a 6a move in sports are exactly the same required to make that 6a move in trad.

Therefore a trad climber can make faster progress in sports than a sports climber can in trad (as the purely sports climber would have no experience of placing gear, and so has to learn to do this, and do it safely (taking a big step down their grades), whereas a trad climber can carry on from their top trad grade, using the technical moves they learnt at trad, and use and develop their strenth (+ onsighting means they have a lot of stamina).

There is absolutely no way you can dispute this.


outdoorclimber


Dec 6, 2004, 12:08 PM
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All types of climbing have their time and place. They are all really fun and this can't be disproved (except for aid of course) :)


crimpandgo


Dec 6, 2004, 12:13 PM
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These statements are totally unfounded and cannot be supported. You should place the disclaimer that the above statements are your opinion because I am sure there are many folks out there that will prove your statements to be inaccuate.

Explain what skills are needed in sports climbing, that can't be found in Trad climbing?

The moves are the same, it is just that sports is more dynamic, whereas trad involves a lot of hanging around placing gear. The techniques required to make say for example a 6a move in sports are exactly the same required to make that 6a move in trad.

Therefore a trad climber can make faster progress in sports than a sports climber can in trad (as the purely sports climber would have no experience of placing gear, and so has to learn to do this, and do it safely (taking a big step down their grades), whereas a trad climber can carry on from their top trad grade, using the technical moves they learnt at trad, and use and develop their strenth (+ onsighting means they have a lot of stamina).

There is absolutely no way you can dispute this.

I have an issue with the statements bolded. My experience is that there are few sport climbers that do nothing but sport. Most that I know and have read about have done plenty of climbing that includes other disciplines such as trad. This is especially true amongst the community of sport climbers that have reached the ranks of 5.11 and above.

Your arguement assumes they have not climbed Trad at all. I would suggest this is an arrogant assumption. I would assume that if I met a 5.11 sport climber at the crags, that person has probably done lots of different climbing and has probably run laps on easier trad stuff if they have not done laps on harder stuff as well.

Then I have to ask, what really is the difference between the trad climber and the sport climber? Surely at the the skill levels you are talking about it is not purely the ability to place gear, because that can and should be learned on easier terrain?


allan_thomson


Dec 6, 2004, 11:55 PM
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Look, just accept, that what I am saying is, that someone who has purely done sport, is going to make less progress in trad, than someone who has purely done trad is in sport. We're not talking about those who have done a bit of both, that is a bit different. That is why I underlined the word Purely. Point taken?

Plus you're forgetting the need to play head games as well. running it out over a piece of gear which you aren't entirely convinced will hold takes a lot more mentally, than running it out over a bolt.

Plus there is the fact that if you rely on redpointing to push your grades, then on the higher grade Trad climbs (where there is increasingly less and less gear, and it is less certain to hold), you are going to be unable to do this, and so will probably either hit a mental block, or come a cropper.


guangzhou


Dec 7, 2004, 3:03 AM
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A strong confident climber will not mind running it out on climbing that feels easy to him. Therefore a strong sport climber may not see such climbing as technically chalenging and will not experience the same head games.

Someone in a previous post said that trad climbing is less dynamic then sport climbing. I don't agree with this statement. Go climb in the south east and you'll found some great, and very dynamic trad line up some very imposing looking faces.

I love this agument. Ever notice that top performing climber do it all and don't limit themslve to on style, one form, or one area..


Partner tradman


Dec 7, 2004, 4:30 AM
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What's your problem with sport climbing again?

No problem whatsoever.

I was simply commenting that it's interesting how ethics gravitate towards more "natural styles" - aid lines get freed, high-altitude siege routes get climbed alpine style, sport lines get sent trad and eventually, inevitably, someone goes for the free solo.

Interesting isn't it?

I'm not saying why this happens or whether it's "good" or not. I'll leave that up to what ever bizarre and convoluted measure you may choose to apply.

:wink:


robreglinski


Dec 7, 2004, 5:14 AM
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dammm guys this is going on a bit don’t you think
ok I’ve read this thread and it made me think. Basically you are arguing about what is climbing is it merely the skill of the person to scale a vertical rock face or is it more

Climbing is a way of life and, like everything in life, it has rules. these rules change from type to type and the change dictates what game your are playing (sport, trad, big wall)

Instead of slagging each other about whos style is best and why consider the following

Imo the different styles or "games climbers play" are listed below and you fall into one of these categories

Bouldering: where its just the climber versus the rock

Sport: Where the climber trusts another person’s skills (both in bolt placement and belaying) in order to maintain a life line

Crag: where the basic application of climbing related skills give a life line for the climber (note the first rule of trad climbing “the leader never falls”)

Multipitch: Where two climbers work together in order to retain a level of safety

Big wall: where a climber uses a greater volume of climbing related skills (eg aid) to scale faces requiring more than a day to complete

Alpine: where a climber uses the skills above (and more) to conquer a new range/level of hostile forces (extreme cold, bad weather....)

Super alpine: the same as below without the expedition techniques

Expedition: where the climber draws upon all skills available both from his team and from a support crew to conquer a massive challenge

Soloing: where its just the climber versus the rock (fall and die)

One is not better that the other your are still required to climb the route however the style that you choose can change the risk that you can take.

This is where ethics come into it coz if you bolt a crack then it’s unethical because you are changing the style at which the route was created and you are decreasing the danger. Also note that you can free a big wall and its not unethical because you are increasing the danger not decreasing it

Read the games climbers play by Ken Wilson im not going to plagiarise it anymore
Rob (UK trad monkey and Scottish Winter Mountaineer)
fire blanket ready


dingus


Dec 7, 2004, 7:18 AM
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I was simply commenting that it's interesting how ethics gravitate towards more "natural styles" - aid lines get freed, high-altitude siege routes get climbed alpine style, sport lines get sent trad and eventually, inevitably, someone goes for the free solo.

Interesting isn't it?

Uh, no, not really.

DMT


crimpandgo


Dec 7, 2004, 7:43 AM
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Look, just accept, that what I am saying is, that someone who has purely done sport, is going to make less progress in trad, than someone who has purely done trad is in sport. We're not talking about those who have done a bit of both, that is a bit different. That is why I underlined the word Purely. Point taken?

Plus you're forgetting the need to play head games as well. running it out over a piece of gear which you aren't entirely convinced will hold takes a lot more mentally, than running it out over a bolt.

Plus there is the fact that if you rely on redpointing to push your grades, then on the higher grade Trad climbs (where there is increasingly less and less gear, and it is less certain to hold), you are going to be unable to do this, and so will probably either hit a mental block, or come a cropper.

Your point is taken. I just dont agree with your point. Sorry. I don't think there are too many pure sport climbers at the grade levels you are talking about. Good examples are Tommy Caldwell and Sonnie Trotter. both are cutting edge sport climbers yet they put up some of the most killer "non-sport" routes in the world. Matter of fact, it seems vogue right now for these guys to break the image that folks like you have that they are just sport climbers. Many of the top climbers are going out and ticking some of the hardest non-sport lines. Beth Caldwell is pushing some of these limits recently as well.

There are climbers out there that are purely sport. there are climbers out there that are purely trad. But to say one will addapt quicker than the other is based on the person and not the style of climbing.


tommyt


Dec 7, 2004, 7:57 AM
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I believe it was John Sheman that summed it up humerously "Sport climbing is niether" I always thought that was funny.


healyje


Dec 7, 2004, 11:07 AM
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Fracture,

Haven't had a chance to get back to your post yet, but I will...

In the meantime I thought this was a revealing excerpt from the "No Crashpads Required" article on this site's home page about Croatian deep water soloing that speaks to what McClure and Sharma found so refreshing about this outing:

In reply to:
Cameras, film crews, even Jack Osbourne, all were there to record the madness. Said McClure, “This is the ethic: its ground up, you go till you drop. No working the moves, no dogging. If it’s really hard a peek from abseil is allowed to save days missing the hidden crimps. Its pure and simple, a journey into untouched territory, no ropes, no rules, just the desire to move over stone.........then a gaze out to sea, like that of some wizened mariner before taking the dive, a perfect arrow from 60 feet.”

The team established over 50 routes during the trip, culminating in McClure’s ultimate FA, Ring of Fire, f8b+ (5.14a). Sharma was up it second and confirmed the rating of the toughest DWS anywhere. The route is located on the Holy Grail Wall, Mana Island, begins with a 7m traverse and ends with a crux 9m above waterline.

Sounds a lot like they were really digging on that "no dogging" aspect of the old-timey trad ethic. I also find it interesting that when a lot of top sport folks reach their peaks what starts interesting them is trad climbing. Maybe there's hope yet for a renaissance yet...

I also think this quote:

In reply to:
Its pure and simple, a journey into untouched territory, no ropes, no rules, just the desire to move over stone....

captures what we can all agree on is the ideal (under circumstances where you won't [necessarily] die). But note: the "no rules" aspect of the excerpt that is a major contributing factor to their deep water bliss is due more to the fact that in [deep] soloing there are no rules necessary - no implicit game - but rather explicit realities that transcend any self-imposed rules.

The trad ethics I have always held dear mirror and recreate that pure onsight [deep] solo experience - only with the addition of a rope: climb ground up and when you can't climb anymore - you fall. You don't hang, which would be impossible on a solo. Again, the notion of ground up, climb until you fall, and no hanging being as close as you can get to a solo experience with a rope on is what it's all about and central to the core of the trad ethic. By comparison, the use of [trad] gear is almost a peripheral matter. Staying close to those imposed [soloing] realities was always the whole point of climbing/leading for my partners and I.


hape234


Dec 7, 2004, 3:56 PM
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fracture said

[For the Hubers, yes, but Yuji Hirayama (an evil, hangdogging sport climber) nearly onsighted Salathe (4 falls on his first try), and later did it from bottom to top in a day with no falls. ]


How the h3ll can you say that he nearly onsighted it with four falls. Dont get me wrong, if he eventually ticked a super hard grade, thats an achievement, but dont mix a great achievement with trying to taint the purity of what an onsight means. Onsighting a climb is the best one can hope for, and it involves no falling. Four falls is a hell of a way off an onsight.

As for this stUpid thread as to semantic and philosiphical debates on whether sport beats trad, it almost, ALMOST comes close to that thread recently posted stating that people only climb trad caus they're too weak to boulder. Leave chossy sh!t like this in the corner of the crag. noone want to see it.. climbing is there for personal achievement. you want to show off how good you are or how ripped you are, go to the climbing gym and impress the plebs'. you want to bag other climbing styles caus you dont understand them, i pity you. and for those of you who can appreciate climbing for what it is, im sure i will see you at the crags giving it your all and having a blast, no matter the style of climbing.

Why does it always seem to be everyone having a go at trad climbing. must be jealousy or something, caus it's at least as legit and skillfull as any other type of climbing. just caus there are people out there that can only climb 5.8 trad doesnt mean that trad climbers are weak,cant sport or boulder or that you cant trad 5.12. there's also nothing wrong with those people, caus they're out there ENJOYING climbing, not sitting here bagging other types of climbing.


dingus


Dec 7, 2004, 4:28 PM
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Staying close to those imposed [soloing] realities was always the whole point of climbing/leading for my partners and I.

Was it REALLY the whole point of climbing, this adherence to some stylistic imposition? Really?

Were you guys really so starry eyed idealistic that concerns over style overrode all? Jeez, I hope for your sake that you climbed for fun and to hear the wind whistling through the holes in your head, like most sensible climbers! Say it ain't so Joe, say it ain't so!

See, while I love a good ethics discussion, ethics are not the point of my climbing, not remotely, never have been and never will be. I would not say, for example, that "if I can't trad I refuse to climb at all." Nope.

Hell, I once nailed a wooden-hold route onto the side of a barn I didn't own and proceeded to joyfully climb that thing so many times the black streaks gave me away to the owner, lol! Twas pre-gym era. He sure was pissed. How's this for climbing ethics? - - -

"Dingus, how would you like it if I came over later and nailed a bunch of these goddamned holds to your truck??? I bet you wouldn't like that much, now would you???"

See, when he put it like that, climbing ethics took a whole new spin, hehe. Spin, get it???

I didn't quote it but you hoped for a rennaisance in trad climbing or words to that affect. Why? Why is it important that others adopt your stylistic creed? I'm not saying you're foisting them upon unwilling recepients, you don't come across that way.

But while I don't climb strictly to adhere to some creed concerning safety equipment, which is the sum total of the entire debate, a freaking safety debate haha, I also don't have a big desire to see others 'do as I do.' Part of me doesn't even want others doing as I do.

Other than to respect local ethics, of course! To my thinking, the only important climbing ethics are those designed to help us all get along and share a public resource. But I pretty much reject any path that includes no give with the take. You rule out sport climbing and you have lost an ear to your WAY. You want me to be open, I require reciprocation!

I guess I don't understand your jihad dude. Come on man, step into the 21st century. I started climbing on the 70's too, things evolve. Hook up with some other old timer and go sport climbing on something that really works you. Give it a try! If you hook up with some folks who know how to do it they can give you a jump start.

I've recently climbed with a 60+ year old retiree who leads stout 11's and works 12's. He also has sent some of the proudest trad lines in the state too.

I think that dude ROCKS! He climbs freaking circles around me, on ANY terrain! Friendly to strangers, not an unkind word to say about anyone it seems. I want to be more like him, not less. I have a long way to go...

DMT


fracture


Dec 7, 2004, 9:20 PM
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fracture said

[For the Hubers, yes, but Yuji Hirayama (an evil, hangdogging sport climber) nearly onsighted Salathe (4 falls on his first try), and later did it from bottom to top in a day with no falls. ]


How the h3ll can you say that he nearly onsighted it with four falls. Dont get me wrong, if he eventually ticked a super hard grade, thats an achievement, but dont mix a great achievement with trying to taint the purity of what an onsight means. Onsighting a climb is the best one can hope for, and it involves no falling. Four falls is a hell of a way off an onsight.

Do you realize that the route we are talking about is a grade VI? It's something like 37 pitches. What "nearly onsighted it" means in this bigwall context is that he onsighted the vast majority of the pitches (many of them decently hard), and did the rest generally on the first redpoint attempt.


hape234


Dec 7, 2004, 9:41 PM
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actually no i didnt know that fracture. take that back and my apologies to you on that.


Partner tyify


Dec 7, 2004, 9:57 PM
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tyify moved this thread from General to Sport Climbing.


healyje


Dec 8, 2004, 2:03 AM
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In reply to:
In reply to:
Staying close to those imposed [soloing] realities was always the whole point of climbing/leading for my partners and I.


Was it REALLY the whole point of climbing, this adherence to some stylistic imposition? Really?

Were you guys really so starry eyed idealistic that concerns over style overrode all? Jeez, I hope for your sake that you climbed for fun and to hear the wind whistling through the holes in your head, like most sensible climbers! Say it ain't so Joe, say it ain't so!

See, while I love a good ethics discussion, ethics are not the point of my climbing, not remotely, never have been and never will be. I would not say, for example, that "if I can't trad I refuse to climb at all." Nope.


Dingus, let's see... No we weren't starry eyed or idealistic at all, on the contrary - we were actually being pragmatic as hell when we adopted a "without a trace" ethic for the very realistic reason of trying to preserve the climbs we were developing.

In fact, given the rock where we learned was pocketed with no cracks and seeing the route was almost harder than doing them we purposely climbed without chalk because it would totally give away the route. Yeah, I know that's the antithesis of crack climbing or today's taped gym routes, but half the beauty of these routes was being able to say there is a route right here and trick one is do you have the eye to see it, trick two is do you have the goods to climb it.

This is a very different experience from most climbing areas. Developing an eye was half the deal there as we walked under most of those climbs for several years before we had chops enough to even see them, let alone climb them. We also mostly climbed steep hangs and roofs as we didn't have much in the way of vertical walls and we often toproped routes rather than bolt them (some of these toproped routes had 20'+ horizontal ground falls from roofs at the cruxes they were so overhung) so hanging really wasn't an option anyway. Our routes by and large weren't like delicate, near static face climbs, or steadily motoring (or in my case thrutching) cracks - they are full on heading upside down, swinging, dyno-monkey contraptions loaded with heel/toe hooking, kneebar no-hands rests, and our general objective was to spend as much time with our feet above our heads as humanly possible.

While we deeply held both the "without a trace" and the "ground up, no hanging" ethic it wasn't some sort of foreground obsession always on our mind, but a set of assumptions that we didn't really think about at all - we just climbed and had a gas putting up route after route. And given we basically never climbed straight, ever, keeping some intellectual track going was pretty much out of the question. If you'd talked to us about all this then we more than likely would have scratched our heads and said, "and you'd screw up the rock and hang from your rope for what reason...?" kind of at loss for the what the point of it would be. And hey, old habits die hard I guess and I kinda like these old habits. Must be why I was wearing Fires and not using chalk when we did Epinephrine two weeks ago...

In reply to:
I didn't quote it but you hoped for a rennaisance in trad climbing or words to that affect. Why? Why is it important that others adopt your stylistic creed? I'm not saying you're foisting them upon unwilling recepients, you don't come across that way.

But while I don't climb strictly to adhere to some creed concerning safety equipment, which is the sum total of the entire debate, a freaking safety debate haha, I also don't have a big desire to see others 'do as I do.' Part of me doesn't even want others doing as I do.

Other than to respect local ethics, of course! To my thinking, the only important climbing ethics are those designed to help us all get along and share a public resource. But I pretty much reject any path that includes no give with the take. You rule out sport climbing and you have lost an ear to your WAY. You want me to be open, I require reciprocation!


I don't rule out anything you or anyone else does and I don't give a rat's ass how people climb so long as they don't screw up the rock - it's that old-timey "without a trace" thing. I've heard rumors of a Euro turnaround in places where they're so bored with sport they're pulling all the bolts and going trad - that was more what I had in mind.

In reply to:
I guess I don't understand your jihad dude. Come on man, step into the 21st century. I started climbing on the 70's too, things evolve. Hook up with some other old timer and go sport climbing on something that really works you. Give it a try! If you hook up with some folks who know how to do it they can give you a jump start.


Again, its that old saw that, "one hundred twenty years later it's taking just about the exact same amount of time, effort, and courage to bolt every rock in North America as it did to shoot all the Buffalo (...seemed like a good idea at the time...)". Every route that gets [unnecessarily] sport bolted removes even the remote possibility that some future fool can walk up to it and suffer the mistaken illusion of having a "first ascent" experience. And that experience is what is consumed and gone forever - bolting sport routes is a penultimate consumer act that [more or less permanently] commodifies rock (especially in small crags). Also, concentrations of sport routes draw crowds, dogs, noise, trash, and access problems like flies.

Did that sound Jihadish...? Well, if so I hear a call to prayers every day even if the infidel hordes intent on their righteous crusade to bolt every rock into a submissive convenience* are unstoppable as a drunken cheerleader on a Cheney highball...

    *con·ven·ience ( P ) Pronunciation Key (kn-vnyns): n. The quality of being suitable to one's comfort, purposes, or needs: the convenience of living near shops, schools, and libraries.

    1. Personal comfort or advantage: services that promote the customer's convenience.
    2. Something that increases comfort or saves work: household conveniences such as a washing machine, an electric can opener, and disposable diapers. See Synonyms at amenity.
    3. Chiefly British. A lavatory.

In reply to:
I've recently climbed with a 60+ year old retiree who leads stout 11's and works 12's. He also has sent some of the proudest trad lines in the state too.

I think that dude ROCKS! He climbs freaking circles around me, on ANY terrain! Friendly to strangers, not an unkind word to say about anyone it seems. I want to be more like him, not less. I have a long way to go...


That dude sounds like he rocks and more power to him and you. This fall myself (52), a 60 year old, a 50 year old, and a young Texan put up a new five pitch 5.11c R rated trad route (5.10a C2 R for about two weeks). Bottom line, for me personally, is that, with notable exceptions, most sport routes are boringly one dimensional (minus the dimensions of self-reliance and gear stealth). I'm just hoping to be lucky enough to still be tradding away when I'm 60+ -- but I'm sure by then I'll be too embarrasingly old school for my wife to let me out and about on public lands...


dingus


Dec 8, 2004, 9:09 AM
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First of all healje, you are a pleasant person with which to disagree. Salude!

In reply to:
If you'd talked to us about all this then we more than likely would have scratched our heads and said, "and you'd screw up the rock and hang from your rope for what reason...?"

I don't say this to be unkind, but your distinction point here, hanging on a rope, is SO ARBITRARY! You talk about it like its some sort of logical dividing line, but from where I sit, comparing hang dogging to your ideal of free soloing, means the use of any rope is CHEATING! If you lead using a rope and fall, dude, you are totally hanging. Yet because you either lower to a stance or to the ground and begin anew, you tout that as some sort of quasi-free-soloing ethic? You cheat and decry my cheating at the same time. Makes my head spin it does!

In reply to:
Must be why I was wearing Fires and not using chalk when we did Epinephrine two weeks ago...

So you own a pair of fires and went climbing 2 weeks ago. I own a pair of fires too. For a while this fall they were the only rock shoes I could worm over my swollen ankle. So what?

In reply to:
I don't rule out anything you or anyone else does and I don't give a rat's ass how people climb so long as they don't screw up the rock - it's that old-timey "without a trace" thing.

Old timey eh? Not as old as many portray that's for sure. Translated- I don't give a rats ass how people climb so long as they don't sport climb.

In reply to:
I've heard rumors of a Euro turnaround in places where they're so bored with sport they're pulling all the bolts and going trad - that was more what I had in mind.

My reading of European climbing history, a far older and deeper history than ours, seeing is how they invented this sport, suggests that equipping routes was happening from the git go Bro! I can cite specific examples but it's unnecessary. These equipped routes preceed anything done on this continent in terms of technical rock climbing. They are tradder than trad... that's right. Equipped routes in Europe predate equivalent difficulty American routes on almost every front. It can be argued that this ground up, leave no trace ethic so readily tossed out as trad is in fact a radical product of the 60's and 70's. So all this talk (from others, not you) about over bolted and over equipped routes in Europe representing some sort of decline is a stretch.

In reply to:
Every route that gets [unnecessarily] sport bolted removes even the remote possibility that some future fool can walk up to it and suffer the mistaken illusion of having a "first ascent" experience.

What if all those fools have no desire for a FA experience of the sort you pine for? Is it OK for them to have a sport too? I don't know, but in these parts there is little conflict over resources. The qualities that lead to good sport climbs don't typically lend themselves to ground-up trad climbing anyway. Ie they are most often practiced at segregated areas.

In reply to:
And that experience is what is consumed and gone forever - bolting sport routes is a penultimate consumer act that [more or less permanently] commodifies rock (especially in small crags).

Why should the traddy get to consume it then? If it is so precious, better that no one climb it at all. That is the only logical conclusion to this tack.

In reply to:
Also, concentrations of sport routes draw crowds, dogs, noise, trash, and access problems like flies.

Of course, like Yosemite Valley, and Eldo and the Gunks. Damn sport climbers!

In reply to:
Did that sound Jihadish...?

No, I didn't see you theatening a holy war.

In reply to:
Well, if so I hear a call to prayers every day even if the infidel hordes intent on their righteous crusade to bolt every rock into a submissive convenience* are unstoppable as a drunken cheerleader on a Cheney highball...

Oh stop it. The river you're crying is getting my dairy boots wet.

In reply to:
This fall myself (52), a 60 year old, a 50 year old, and a young Texan put up a new five pitch 5.11c R rated trad route (5.10a C2 R for about two weeks).

Right on man. Guess what? I have no desire to climb a 5.11 r route. At all. Don't care and I doubt I ever will again. As proud as that accomplishment is, and I can respect the skill needed to do it, represents what to the community? Another line that will be climbed by precious few. There are lots of those routes in Yosemite. I applaud them. And there are no lines either. Whereas the bulk of your traddies are lining up for routes like Nutcracker and Serenity Crack. Damn few people really and truly desire to climb hard runnout trad routes. But in your talk of consumption, which is the greater greed... a 5.11 safe sport climb enjoyable by the climbing prolateriat or the 11r headfest that only a few will dare? Who has truly squandered what? Is that even a valid plank to argue from?

I would submit that neither can make the greater claim of conservation. Not in terms of route possibilities anyway. I see little problem with some convenience oriented climbing. I don't interpret the word 'convenience' as 'pact with the devil.' I don't see the resource crisis. I do see a lot of strong climbers having fun in the sun. They don't leave trash behind and they have squandered nothing.

Lastly, with the government push for user funding of public resources, land manager concerns over climber impact are at the very bottom of my list of worries. As a paying customer, they damn well better deliver what me, the paying customer, wants, or they will find themselves out of a job. That's the ultimate result of user fees... eventual user control.

Cheers Bro!
DMT


kalcario


Dec 8, 2004, 10:52 AM
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*This is a very different experience from most climbing areas. Developing an eye was half the deal there as we walked under most of those climbs for several years before we had chops enough to even see them, let alone climb them. We also mostly climbed steep hangs and roofs as we didn't have much in the way of vertical walls and we often toproped routes rather than bolt them (some of these toproped routes had 20'+ horizontal ground falls from roofs at the cruxes they were so overhung) so hanging really wasn't an option anyway. Our routes by and large weren't like delicate, near static face climbs, or steadily motoring (or in my case thrutching) cracks - they are full on heading upside down, swinging, dyno-monkey contraptions loaded with heel/toe hooking, kneebar no-hands rests, and our general objective was to spend as much time with our feet above our heads as humanly possible.*

Where was this, how hard were the routes, and how did you eventually protect them?


healyje


Dec 8, 2004, 11:47 AM
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Dingus,

I think the whole of our discussion comes down to two essential points for me:

1. Bolting: I have a basic problem with the Judeo-Christian, "I's paid my money, now...", consumer-oriented, 'God put it all here for me to use (consume, abuse) as I please' perspective embodied at the root of both bolted sport climbing and your comments in general. When two people walk up and climb a rock and it is forever altered by one and left unaltered by the other exactly who is doing the imposing? Clearly, it's the one that permanently altered the natural state of the rock. A line of [grid] bolts has a lot in common with cigar smoke and dog shit - perfectly fine, you think, if you're the one leaving them - not so great for for folks that prefer clean air or are trying to take a walk in the park. I don't climb or put up routes as a community service - I climb purely for my own enjoyment and to escape your 'community' and feel no obligation or desire whatsoever to build on ramps for the masses to follow. I really don't care if anyone else ever climbs my climbs. In fact, if the bolts disappeared overnight ebay would be flooded with climbing gear and we'd instantly have 80% fewer climbers and that would be just fine with me. What's next, multi-player sport climbing video games and wheel chair ramps for ADA compliance (yeah, I know - Jihadish)?

2: Hanging: I admit, while having done my share of free solos, I've always gravitated towards using a rope and life. But I try to climb as if I weren't using one and that's the experience I like. I fall and go back down because bringing the ground up to a move (hanging) essentially reduces it to a [aerial] bouldering problem and doesn't require nearly the will or emotional crank ground up requires, though I will grant you that passed a point somewhere up above 12+ ground up is no longer viable. I understand you can wire the actual moves / route faster, but only at a cost I personally think is too high if you really want to develop and maintain the skills and headset for trad.


fracture


Dec 8, 2004, 1:33 PM
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In reply to:
This fall myself (52), a 60 year old, a 50 year old, and a young Texan put up a new five pitch 5.11c R rated trad route (5.10a C2 R for about two weeks).

So you used hangdog tactics? :lol:


kalcario


Dec 8, 2004, 2:50 PM
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*I fall and go back down because bringing the ground up to a move (hanging) essentially reduces it to a [aerial] bouldering problem and doesn't require nearly the will or emotional crank ground up requires, though I will grant you that passed a point somewhere up above 12+ ground up is no longer viable.*

The problem with never using the rope for upward progress (including practicing moves without lowering) is that you'll never get to the point where will and emotional crank are *unnecessary* to climb 12+ or harder ground up and/or on sight.

Hangdogging inarguably makes you a better climber. Period. The fact is that HANGDOGGING SPORT CLIMBERS are pushing trad climbing standards far beyond what the best trad climbers of the 80's ever dreamed of (Dihedral Wall, Salathe free in a day, etc).


healyje


Dec 8, 2004, 3:47 PM
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Fracture,

I think we are just going to have to agree to disagree on the free vs. aid climbing deal - it's pretty simple, aid climbing is a separate activity entirely that represents a deliberate cessation of free climbing and just happens to use more or less the same gear for upward movement.

Intentional hanging while free climbing whatever you call it, dogging, frenching, etc. is simply a lack of, or different, style ethic depending on your perspective.

One has nothing whatsoever to do with the other...

As for the route in question we encountered three points of aid we considered impossible after lots of falling. Two appeared impossible and the third was unadvised moves up an overhang with loose blocks. The first we found an alternate approach moving out from the corner and swinging the arete; the second we came up with an way less than obvious alternate technical solution; and the third we determined that the three blocks/flakes would (for now) interlock and wedge in place under weight once you had both hands on the top of the left block of the three and so now goes free after you "set" the blocks which are directly over your head, hence the R rating.

----------------------------------------------------

kalcario

Again, I have no doubt that dogging is the fastest route to 12+ land and I see you do a lot of hard routes - that approach just doesn't hold interest for me at the moment, though who knows, maybe I'll change - but if I do it will be a deliberated and intentional change of style ethic (and probably hanging on trad gear, not bolts) - not all that different from deciding to switch from free to aid climbing.

But I'm curious as to what's been the percentage mix between trad and sport for you as you've gotten better? Personally it doesn't surprise me that top sport climbers end up doing trad or deep water eventually just for the sense of risk and self-reliance for a change...

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