No, I think you will infact find, trad climbers do actually make more progress in sports than do sports in Trad. That is because trad originated climbers have the technical knowledge + the strength + stamina for sports climbing, whereas most sports originated climbers do not have the knowledge to place gear safely.

The only thing which would further delay a trad climber in making progress in sports is their onsight ethic, but then on the other hand a sports climber trying to readpoint a trad climb on poorly placed gear (cos they haven't the experience to place it properly) is more likely to get seriously injured, and put out the game for good.

These statements are totally unfounded and cannot be supported. You should place the disclaimer that the above statements are your opinion because I am sure there are many folks out there that will prove your statements to be inaccuate.

Explain what skills are needed in sports climbing, that can't be found in Trad climbing?

The moves are the same, it is just that sports is more dynamic, whereas trad involves a lot of hanging around placing gear. The techniques required to make say for example a 6a move in sports are exactly the same required to make that 6a move in trad.

Therefore a trad climber can make faster progress in sports than a sports climber can in trad (as the purely sports climber would have no experience of placing gear, and so has to learn to do this, and do it safely (taking a big step down their grades), whereas a trad climber can carry on from their top trad grade, using the technical moves they learnt at trad, and use and develop their strenth (+ onsighting means they have a lot of stamina).

There is absolutely no way you can dispute this.

What's your problem with sport climbing again?

I was simply commenting that it's interesting how ethics gravitate towards more "natural styles" - aid lines get freed, high-altitude siege routes get climbed alpine style, sport lines get sent trad and eventually, inevitably, someone goes for the free solo.

Interesting isn't it?

Look, just accept, that what I am saying is, that someone who has purely done sport, is going to make less progress in trad, than someone who has purely done trad is in sport. We're not talking about those who have done a bit of both, that is a bit different. That is why I underlined the word Purely. Point taken?

Plus you're forgetting the need to play head games as well. running it out over a piece of gear which you aren't entirely convinced will hold takes a lot more mentally, than running it out over a bolt.

Plus there is the fact that if you rely on redpointing to push your grades, then on the higher grade Trad climbs (where there is increasingly less and less gear, and it is less certain to hold), you are going to be unable to do this, and so will probably either hit a mental block, or come a cropper.

Cameras, film crews, even Jack Osbourne, all were there to record the madness. Said McClure, “This is the ethic: its ground up, you go till you drop. No working the moves, no dogging. If it’s really hard a peek from abseil is allowed to save days missing the hidden crimps. Its pure and simple, a journey into untouched territory, no ropes, no rules, just the desire to move over stone.........then a gaze out to sea, like that of some wizened mariner before taking the dive, a perfect arrow from 60 feet.”

The team established over 50 routes during the trip, culminating in McClure’s ultimate FA, Ring of Fire, f8b+ (5.14a). Sharma was up it second and confirmed the rating of the toughest DWS anywhere. The route is located on the Holy Grail Wall, Mana Island, begins with a 7m traverse and ends with a crux 9m above waterline.

Its pure and simple, a journey into untouched territory, no ropes, no rules, just the desire to move over stone....

Staying close to those imposed [soloing] realities was always the whole point of climbing/leading for my partners and I.

fracture said

[For the Hubers, yes, but Yuji Hirayama (an evil, hangdogging sport climber) nearly onsighted Salathe (4 falls on his first try), and later did it from bottom to top in a day with no falls. ]


How the h3ll can you say that he nearly onsighted it with four falls. Dont get me wrong, if he eventually ticked a super hard grade, thats an achievement, but dont mix a great achievement with trying to taint the purity of what an onsight means. Onsighting a climb is the best one can hope for, and it involves no falling. Four falls is a hell of a way off an onsight.

Was it REALLY the whole point of climbing, this adherence to some stylistic imposition? Really?

Were you guys really so starry eyed idealistic that concerns over style overrode all? Jeez, I hope for your sake that you climbed for fun and to hear the wind whistling through the holes in your head, like most sensible climbers! Say it ain't so Joe, say it ain't so!

See, while I love a good ethics discussion, ethics are not the point of my climbing, not remotely, never have been and never will be. I would not say, for example, that "if I can't trad I refuse to climb at all." Nope.

I didn't quote it but you hoped for a rennaisance in trad climbing or words to that affect. Why? Why is it important that others adopt your stylistic creed? I'm not saying you're foisting them upon unwilling recepients, you don't come across that way.

But while I don't climb strictly to adhere to some creed concerning safety equipment, which is the sum total of the entire debate, a freaking safety debate haha, I also don't have a big desire to see others 'do as I do.' Part of me doesn't even want others doing as I do.

Other than to respect local ethics, of course! To my thinking, the only important climbing ethics are those designed to help us all get along and share a public resource. But I pretty much reject any path that includes no give with the take. You rule out sport climbing and you have lost an ear to your WAY. You want me to be open, I require reciprocation!

I guess I don't understand your jihad dude. Come on man, step into the 21st century. I started climbing on the 70's too, things evolve. Hook up with some other old timer and go sport climbing on something that really works you. Give it a try! If you hook up with some folks who know how to do it they can give you a jump start.

I've recently climbed with a 60+ year old retiree who leads stout 11's and works 12's. He also has sent some of the proudest trad lines in the state too.

I think that dude ROCKS! He climbs freaking circles around me, on ANY terrain! Friendly to strangers, not an unkind word to say about anyone it seems. I want to be more like him, not less. I have a long way to go...

If you'd talked to us about all this then we more than likely would have scratched our heads and said, "and you'd screw up the rock and hang from your rope for what reason...?"

Must be why I was wearing Fires and not using chalk when we did Epinephrine two weeks ago...

I don't rule out anything you or anyone else does and I don't give a rat's ass how people climb so long as they don't screw up the rock - it's that old-timey "without a trace" thing.

I've heard rumors of a Euro turnaround in places where they're so bored with sport they're pulling all the bolts and going trad - that was more what I had in mind.

Every route that gets [unnecessarily] sport bolted removes even the remote possibility that some future fool can walk up to it and suffer the mistaken illusion of having a "first ascent" experience.

And that experience is what is consumed and gone forever - bolting sport routes is a penultimate consumer act that [more or less permanently] commodifies rock (especially in small crags).

Also, concentrations of sport routes draw crowds, dogs, noise, trash, and access problems like flies.

Did that sound Jihadish...?

Well, if so I hear a call to prayers every day even if the infidel hordes intent on their righteous crusade to bolt every rock into a submissive convenience* are unstoppable as a drunken cheerleader on a Cheney highball...

This fall myself (52), a 60 year old, a 50 year old, and a young Texan put up a new five pitch 5.11c R rated trad route (5.10a C2 R for about two weeks).

This fall myself (52), a 60 year old, a 50 year old, and a young Texan put up a new five pitch 5.11c R rated trad route (5.10a C2 R for about two weeks).