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metoliusmunchkin
Aug 29, 2001, 12:22 PM
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Well man, I just think that the old fogies at NBC weren't very impressed with the climbing on the x games and that they wanted something "more exiting" for their networks extreme sports. YOu can go to the outdoor life network any time, and when there's something about climbing, it's not "DYNO-climbing!" I mean come on! What non-climber exective thought of that one? Though, I have to say I have nothin' against "DYNOclimbing, and I think it would be very exiting to watch. Though, I would rather just watch my old pusher tapes of Chris Sharma redpoint REalisation instead. When it comes to climbing and t.v., just give me some one who is sending a hard route, that's enough action for me and should be for the rest of the climbers considering that we have such an understanding of the sport that we already know how exiting it is when you first send a route, and that feeling is hard to get when your 75 years old and you're an executive at NBC!
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fiend
Aug 29, 2001, 3:36 PM
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Dificulty climbing has been cut from most of the 'X-treme' competitions because it didn't attract enough viewers.
It was thought to be boring and lacking in testosterone driven adrenaline rush. Well, that's not the official reason, but you gotta figure it was something like that.
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wandt
Aug 29, 2001, 7:11 PM
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Put yourself in the shoes of Joe Schmoe who has no idea that slopers are even used, nevermind how hard they are to chalk up off of on an overhang. To a non-climber difficulty climbing has all the excitement of a televised chessmatch. It's mostly about strategy and analytical skills ('cause can you REALLY tell how hard Sharma is wrenching on a hold? He's so deadpan most of the time.). You just see them doing slow, methodical moves tracing an obvious line up the wall, clipping as needs be. When someone falls, Bill Public can't tell why they fell. "Maybe he was tired."
I know for a fact that golf involves a great deal of coordination and skill, but watching it is still as enthralling as watching paint dry.
Dyno competitions, at least, give the excitement of the half-pipe events but in a climbing forum. Lets hope they grow in popularity, resulting in people getting to know they sport and what it takes. Then we may see an influx of difficulty competitions in the future.
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wandt
Aug 30, 2001, 1:35 AM
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Well they will get into climbing to dyno, but without solid climbing skills will be no good at it. Then they will have to actually learn to climb, and by doing that the other horizons of climbing will be forcibly opened to them. Then when they have their foundation of skill they may choose to go back to dynoing or keep going with allround climbing. I think that most will keep on with all-round climbing.
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kagunkie
Aug 30, 2001, 3:15 AM
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I hope this televised "climbing" CRAP dies as soon as possible! It does NOTHING to enrich the craft of climbing and is actually harmfull to it. Trying to make a "sport" out of climbing does more harm than good. The spirit of climbing is being choked by greed and persuit of "fame" by climbing gymnasts. If you love climbing climb and keep it to yourself! Dont throw pearls before swine.
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kagunkie
Aug 30, 2001, 8:36 AM
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A sport usually involves competition between teams or individuals. Climbing is a craft or indever, persuit it is NOT not a sport.
[ This Message was edited by: kagunkie on 2001-08-30 01:40 ]
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trevor
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Aug 30, 2001, 4:08 PM
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WHOA!! kagunkie I have to disagree with you. Although I totally agree with your "don't pollute climbing" attitude, calling climbing not a sport is tragic. Have you ever seen two people struggling to send a route and one of them finally does it. Yea the other person is happy but the emotion they are feeling is nothing short of pure competition. Under your definition, walking, jogging and running wouldn't be a sport. How about cycling? Maybe things that are done alone and can't be quantified aren't sports. What about kayaking, surfing, or tons of other sports they aren't clearly measurable and done by a single person competing against nature? Climbing is a sport and people who excel at climbing a great athletes.
I think I understand the point you were trying to make but I'm afraid your wordsmithing is a little off on this one.
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kagunkie
Aug 30, 2001, 5:54 PM
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True, climbing can be catagorized as a sport but I believe it's much more than that. Televised sports today in this country are the bastard children of something more pure than what can be or is produced for TV. The sport of professional wresteling is a good example. Would you call that wresteling? You could but I'm sure most olympic wrestelers are a little dissapointed to see how degraded their sport is when the television network vultures get their hands on it. I just dont think that kind of publicity can do much good for the climbing world I live in. In fact to me it's an insult to my inteligance as is most of what's on TV.
Again I say.....
The spirit of climbing is being choked by greed and persuit of "fame" by climbing gymnasts. If you love climbing climb and keep it to yourself! Dont throw pearls before swine.
[ This Message was edited by: kagunkie on 2001-08-30 11:00 ]
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vaness
Sep 1, 2001, 9:57 PM
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whats a dyno?
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wandt
Sep 1, 2001, 10:52 PM
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Professional wrestling has officially been entertainment for at least 5 years now. (They finally had to fess up and say it's not a sport because taxes on sporting events in New Jersey are apparently higher than taxes on Entertainment venues), and I wouldn't say that it has hurt real wrestling at all. I don't think that real wrestling has been a real draw for the last 300+ years. If anything, the WWF lures more kids into their school wrestling programs, where they learn the real thing. If dyno competitions can do something similar, more power to them!
Competition brings out the best in us! Embrace and celebrate it. And embrace and celebrate it better than the other guy does!
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wandt
Sep 1, 2001, 10:52 PM
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What about speed climbing competitions? Should they be burned at your proverbial stake (or piton) along with these "blasphemous" dyno comps?
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jds100
Sep 2, 2001, 2:33 AM
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Speed climbing and theses dyno comps are pretty much the networks version of climbing, so the viewers -most of whom are presumably NOT climbers- can see and hear the struggle. The networks don't really care what climbing is "about"; they're interested in selling an entertainment package for advertising revenue (and climbers are notoriously short of revenue).
I don't think these pseudo-climbing events do much good or much harm. I think if someone is watching these things, they have some level of interest already; I don't think these comps will CREATE an interest that would not otherwise have been there. I also don't think they will prove themselves to be valuable to the networks.
The harm they might do is something akin to the harm of short-roping any paying client -a summiteer- up a mountain, irrespective of ability or fitness. That could have a diluting effect on the experience for those climbers who did it the "right" way. Among climbers, we may all know what it takes to accomplish a particular climb, but when we're talking to a non-climber friend or acquaintance who finds out about our passion for climbing, we will be compared to higher profile examples of "climbing" as portrayed by the major media (i.e. dyno and speed comps, Everest escapades).
I'm wondering what the value is for climbing in getting more mainstream exposure? Does climbing need the stamp of popular approval to legitimize it? What is the value of more people than might otherwise come to climbing becoming involved with climbing because of exposure on TV? I don't see a need to try to keep people away, nor do I see the value of elevating climbing's profile to the "general public" just to get bigger numbers involved.
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kagunkie
Sep 2, 2001, 3:01 PM
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If you came to the Gunks on a holiday weekend you might have second thoughts about keeping people away or at least not attracting them. Even a mile of cliffs can only absorbe so many people before theres a line at the bottom of every route. Along with that theres always the accompanying theft rudeness and trash that goes along with any crowd at a "party" atmosphere. Overuse is becoming a major problem at many climbing areas.
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jds100
Sep 2, 2001, 6:32 PM
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As a general rule, so to speak, is there a way to keep people away, or are crowds just the inevitable result of general population growth and suburban expansion?
'Sounds like at the Gunks, there's not much in the way of an alternative destination for an awful lot of people. Some places have the luxuries of a smaller population base that is spread over more square miles (less convenient to access), and more destinations to choose from. There are some climbers here where I climb that 'have' climbing areas that are still hidden in the woods, and they have no plans to publicize them. 'Course, this area doesn't have the elevation that the Gunks and a lot of other places do, so these crags and canyons -probably 40-90 feet in height- can stay hidden, on state land and National Forest land, pretty easily.
Crowds like that would definitely bug me; what can you do? Is there anything you can now, this late in the game at the Gunks, and is there something you would do early on for a new crag or destination?
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kagunkie
Sep 3, 2001, 5:10 AM
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In response to jds.......
Keeping people away? I dont think thats too fair to the ones who just want to experience the outdoors nor does it seem possible. Alternative destinations are a great way to disperse the crowds but unfortunatly everyone wants to do the same classics. I do think not attracting them would be a great help but there too climbing schools and equiptment retailers will never agree to that. The problem is prevalent throughout the entire northeast and its getting worse as time passes. I do think guiding services, media coverage including magazines, and greedy retailers are a major factor in creating this problem. The best soloution I can think of is to spread out the masses by developing and publicizing alternatives, gyms are a good one, other cliffs are the other one. Even if people dont use the alternative areas youll at least have those to use without the crowds. Though its only a temporary soloution unless climbing somehow becomes less popular. A war would probably do it.
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jds100
Sep 4, 2001, 3:25 PM
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Kagunkie: I think gyms could be a very good solution to help draw off the crowds of folks who maybe want the gymnastic/workout experience of climbing, for whom driving to an outdoor destination might be an inconvenience by comparison.
I'm not a marketing expert, but I do wonder when climbing and the other "Xtreme" sports will reach the saturation point. The shops that sell gear in my area are much more of the boutique in nature. They sell clothes for, I think, the same yuppies who've blown the sale of SUVs through the roof so they can drive their kids 1.8 miles to the soccer park, and then come pick 'em up again an hour later. (How much sense does it make to have a class of vehicle called "luxury SUV"?)
Our respective climbing areas are very different, due, at least in part, to the population concentration difference. Here, my impression is that the indoor gym(s) draw off those who might not be able to commit to the time it takes to get to the outdoor spots. Population centers are probably further apart, and generally smaller. In some ways I think it'd be cool to live in an area where climbing is much more participated in, but the problems you describe are worse than being on the fringe here where I am.
We've already seen the failure of climbing as a mainstream spectator sport, so I hope the rest of the mainstream media and advertisers will find it too limited an appeal to continue to "use" climbing imagery.
I'm starting to give more consideration to the notion of some sort of user fee for heavily used areas that suffer the effects. One problem is that it's expensive to administrate, especially at the beginning.
Is there risk of closures or restrictions from over-use of the areas where you climb?
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kagunkie
Sep 4, 2001, 4:20 PM
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The Gunks has already lost one of its four main cliffs 'Skytop' was closed to climbing in the mid-90s, that was a great loss for me and the rest of us. It was my favorite cliff as well as being among the cleanest most spectacular cliffs it was home to many historic climbs many of them ground breaking achievments for their time. Currently the Preserve is charging seven dollars for a day pass, parking has been limited and more rangers have been hired. This hasnt done much to decrease the numbers swarming like bees to honey. Its not the same place it was ten or twenty years ago. I doubt it will ever improve. The crowds will continue to inrease and erosion, trash, human waste,theft and a general degradation of the climbing experience there will continue until its closed for good.
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aulwes
Sep 7, 2001, 2:55 AM
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I believe climbing is a sport,but...how can I get a scholarship for climbing at my school? Shouldn't title 9 give give equal oppertunity among sports.
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bart
Sep 8, 2001, 8:04 PM
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I find climbing exciting because it is what I call a 'primitive' sport: the rocks are there and you just need/want/will/have... to climb it. Therefore I don't really like traverses and that kind of competitions, because there's no point for doing that.
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