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wa_hoo
Dec 20, 2004, 2:32 AM
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So my hubby adn I have been bouldering for a year or so and just started leading in the gym. I've been outside about 6 times (led once). The people I went with are safety freaks so that helps me feel like I'd have a clue if a guide was not being as careful as I would be.
The experienced friends we know are hard to coordinate days with, and we're considering a guide for a couple days outside so we can confidently lead and then set up a TR and clean by ourselves. I've done the cleaning before, he has never been outside.
Any words of wisdom/caution about going with a guide?
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gunksgoer
Dec 20, 2004, 4:25 AM
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it sounds like u are talking about a guide for sport climbing maybe...
I wouldnt reccomend it, as sportclimbing is basic enough not to require a guide. If u can already lead solidly in the gym, go with an experienced sport climber for just a day or two of single pitch sport, (ask around at the gym) and u will quickly learn how it differs from the gym.
Once u have the basics down, id make sure to climb in areas where there are other climbers present (incase something does go wrong), and dont lead at your limit - far below it if possible.
After a moderate amount of sport climbing, u will get the skills necesary to do it by yourselves, and start to push your limits.
Id save a guide for trad, as there are MANY more tihngs u need to learn, as trad is FAR more complicated. but i think most of your decision will be based on your wallet. If you have lotsa $$ just sitting around in piles all over your house, sure, whatever, get a guide. Personally, id just save it and spend it on gear (:-D)
Be safe.
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andy_reagan
Dec 20, 2004, 1:28 PM
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In reply to: dont lead at your limit - far below it if possible.
This is quite possibly dangerous advice. I understand every route is different, but in general, the lower graded routes are much more dangerous to fall on in terms of dislocating and breaking ankles upon impact. Generally, once you get up to about 10+/11- the falls will be a bit "cleaner." This is of course a gross over-simplification, take it as you will. I just found myself very uncomfortable leading 8-10s when that was my "limit" in terms of the likelihood of bailing off at any time to smack a ledge hard.
Climb safe. 8^)
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kman
Dec 20, 2004, 2:17 PM
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In reply to: and we're considering a guide for a couple days outside
You can learn alot from a guide in a few days. Don't just limit yourself to sport. If it's a few days with one then get them to show you mult-pitch climbing, trad maybe, perhaps some rescue skills. Depends how long you hire one for. If single pitch sport climbing is all you want to do then just get some one to show you.
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moeman
Dec 20, 2004, 3:08 PM
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Learning the basic skills from a qualified guide is definately a good way to go for your first few times outside. They can often teach you exactly what you need to know to become capable of safely climbing outside on your own. In addition to what you've mentioned, make sure to understand the basics of self rescue in case of an emergency.
The biggest downside to hiring a guide is the steep price. A day with a guide can easily thin your wallet by about 200 clams. If you don't have this ind of money, you can often find an experianced climber who will be more than happy to show you the ropes in exchange for a belay r two. Offering to buy the pizza and beer at the end of the day will help a lot too. However, if you do this be careful to find someone who really does know what they are talking about, as opposed to someone who just claims to be experianced. This isn't just finding a spotter in the gym- be careful who you climb with.
If you have the dough, I would absolutely reccomend hiring a guide for a couple days. You can either hire a guide for a day of private intruction, or sign up for a pre-scheduled class. Your gym may offer a gym-to-crag style class that will teach you what you need to know to transition outside. You may also want to look into Colorado Mountain School. They are a very well known and reputable guiding service that runs classes and private guiding trips in the Boulder area. They offer a variety of courses that may suit your interests: http://www.cmschool.com/rock.asp
I haven't climbed with CMS guides, but I do know that they carry an excellent reputation.
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gunksgoer
Dec 20, 2004, 4:25 PM
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in response to what andy_reagen said, yes, he is correct about some easier routes being more dangerous then harder ones, but this is definatly not a law, especially for sport. With trad climbing this statement does have somethin to it tho. In some cases I have had much more trouble leading 5.2s then 5.6s in the past, due to the wandering nature of the easier routes, and blockier terain.
When i was first starting to lead sport several years ago, i was on things "far below my limit" like 6's and 7's, my limit being around a 10. I was not stupid in my route selection. Soon after i was leading, i went to one crag which i thot would have some good routes. i inspected them and the falls seemed sketchy, so we went somewhere else.
Know your limits and use some good judgement people. If u cant do sometihng with the skills u posess, wait till u have what it takes. Getting killed puts a permanent halt in your climbing progression, where as waiting for another day is just temporary.
Be safe.
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jpdreamer
Dec 20, 2004, 5:06 PM
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I agree with most posters, that if all you want to do is sport climb, just hook up with some experienced climbers for a couple days outside. I wouldn't work on trad climbing untill you're comfortable leading in general.
That said, if you're looking at a big trip that's more a vacation than a weekend excursion, a guide would be useful even if you're only looking at learning sport climbing. Why? They would let you get the basics of sport climbing down, and later in the day they could put you on some great trad climbs on a top rope. Also, a good guide would help you be more efficient and be able to point you to climbs that you would enjoy most. Basically, they'd help you get the most out of the time you were there.
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wa_hoo
Dec 21, 2004, 2:42 AM
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Thanks a ton you guys! My sense was we need an experienced day or two and then we'll be set. Hubby needs to learn to clean, we need supervision, and then I think we'll be ok.
The guides are expensive, but my hubby can trade for the guide time, so it's essentially free. Can't beat that. My concern was whether my hopes and expectations for a day or two were reasonable and it sounds like they are.
We aren't up for trad, just need some supervision and instruction on getting everything set up right. It does suck to lead low now, because I know the low routes aren't so good to fall on. It'd be much better to fall on a vertical or overhanging route. But the bolts should be close on a low one, and a guide should be able to make good route choices.
Thanks a ton! Very useful advice.
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climbhoser
Dec 21, 2004, 2:54 AM
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get ahold of Eli Helmuth at CMS in Estes Park...you won't regret it. In fact, it may open your eyes so much you go back for more and more and end up part time guiding for him yourself. It's not a bad way to spend weekends ;)
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irockclimbtoo
Dec 21, 2004, 4:15 AM
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ab
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radistrad
Dec 21, 2004, 4:29 AM
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Go for it and hire the guide.
You can learn a lot. Focus on anchor building and setting up top ropes at YOUR local areas. Learn the basics of leading, even clipping bolts has do's and dont's (a rope behind you leg can filp you in a fall). And you should also buy John Long how to Rock Climb book, it will help to reinforce the things the guide will teach you and it will have much more info than a day or two of guiding will give you.
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billcoe_
Dec 21, 2004, 9:22 PM
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In reply to: Go for it and hire the guide. You can learn a lot. Focus on anchor building and setting up top ropes at YOUR local areas. Learn the basics of leading, even clipping bolts has do's and dont's (a rope behind you leg can filp you in a fall). And you should also buy John Long how to Rock Climb book, it will help to reinforce the things the guide will teach you and it will have much more info than a day or two of guiding will give you.
You have recieved much good advise here. The reality is that MOST accidents are new climbers who are learning, yet do not know how much they do not know. You only have to ask yourself the question, "what would my life be like if one of us made a mistake"? to see the wisdom of grabbing all the knowledge and info you can, all the time, no matter if you have been climbing 30 days or 30 years.
It sounds like you have a good attitude about learning and knowledge gathering and will be fine.
Hire the guide, buy all the books, suck your experienced friends into climbing, learn everything you can and doing classes are all a good idea, any chance you get.
It's too costly to be a statistic.
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wa_hoo
Dec 22, 2004, 2:40 AM
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Sometimes I feel like I get a little carried away in my pursuit of information - so I appreciate the backup here. One big reason I read a ton as well as talk with people is that all it takes is one mistake, and there's so much to learn.
There are many subtle things about leading and belaying which can make a huge difference on safety and thus enjoyment. I like feeling confident and that I know what I'm doing. Like getting your foot under the rope, etc.
It's the little tidbits from experienced friends which have been worth the most. That's part of what I'd expect from a guide. We could go alone with what I know, and 99% chance all would be fine. But I wouldn't feel very comfortable, something could happen, and all of it would be way less fun.
Thanks for the input. I have Long's How to Rock Climb book and it's great. I haven't read it since I've started leading and I bet I skipped that part when I first read it. Good advice!
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ontario_guide
Dec 22, 2004, 6:19 AM
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ok, let me start of by saying how biased I am in this but here it goes anyways.
Unlike the experienced climber, a good guide not only knows their stuff, they know how to explain it in a way that you will understand and retain. Imagine trying to teach someone how to drive who has never seen a car before. Where would you start? You'd probably have a hard time trying to explain everything from putting in gas to parrell parking. Unless you happen to have a natural talent for teaching and have sat around figuring out the best way to communicate the information in a logical fashion, you are probably not going to be giving the best lesson in the world. Climbing guides are the same way. We have spent many years figuring out how to teach people climbing. We know what you are going to have problems with and we work towards them before you even get there. Many times, something that you would otherwise have a hard time with is a breeze because the guide built you up to it.
I've taken all my basic courses from guides. Broadened that information with books and than practiced it with better climbers than I. I feel that is the safest way to learn. I have seen some pretty sketchy stuff from people who would consider themselves "expert climbers" and I wonder how starting climbers could evaluate if they are learning from a climber who actually is good or just thinks they are good.
That's my 2 cents. I guess if I thought guides were useless I wouldn't have spent the last 8 years of my life guiding. I don't do it for the money.
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wa_hoo
Dec 23, 2004, 2:49 AM
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ontario_guide - you did an awesome job putting into words why I feel the need for a guide for our first trips outside alone. Yes, it's just sport climbing, yes, the anchor set-up off bolts/chains is easy, but you can still easily mess up and the prices are huge.
The person I learned to climb from did what you said - would coach me along the way so I learned a ton, and ended up retaining a lot, and helped me avoid big pitfalls. Unfortunately we aren't climbing together any more and it was before I was leading so I missed all the stuff I need now.
I teach middle school and would agree - yes, many people know the material, but can they convey it to 12 year olds so they enjoy it and retain it? That's why I teach too, it's certainly not for the paycheck.
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jdouble
Dec 23, 2004, 4:17 PM
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In reply to: ok, let me start of by saying how biased I am in this but here it goes anyways. Unlike the experienced climber, a good guide not only knows their stuff, they know how to explain it in a way that you will understand and retain. Imagine trying to teach someone how to drive who has never seen a car before. Where would you start? You'd probably have a hard time trying to explain everything from putting in gas to parrell parking. Unless you happen to have a natural talent for teaching and have sat around figuring out the best way to communicate the information in a logical fashion, you are probably not going to be giving the best lesson in the world. Climbing guides are the same way. We have spent many years figuring out how to teach people climbing. We know what you are going to have problems with and we work towards them before you even get there. Many times, something that you would otherwise have a hard time with is a breeze because the guide built you up to it. I've taken all my basic courses from guides. Broadened that information with books and than practiced it with better climbers than I. I feel that is the safest way to learn. I have seen some pretty sketchy stuff from people who would consider themselves "expert climbers" and I wonder how starting climbers could evaluate if they are learning from a climber who actually is good or just thinks they are good. That's my 2 cents. I guess if I thought guides were useless I wouldn't have spent the last 8 years of my life guiding. I don't do it for the money.
Fly this guy to Boulder and hire him.
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ontario_guide
Dec 24, 2004, 5:31 AM
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In reply to: Fly this guy to Boulder and hire him.
That sounds like a good idea.
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climbian
Dec 24, 2004, 6:52 AM
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guides are like condoms its probablly safer with but much better without
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shorty
Dec 29, 2004, 4:59 PM
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In reply to: A guide is really nice on trad but I can't see a point of getting one for bolted routes. Just buy a guide book
Last time I checked, a "guide" is a walking, talking human being that (usually) can teach (more open minded) climbers a thing or two. And a "guide book" pretty much just shows climbers (who have the capacity to read and comprehend) where the routes are.
Am I missing something, or are these two things really synonymous?
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shorty
Dec 29, 2004, 5:12 PM
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In reply to: guides are like condoms its probablly safer with but much better without
Wa_oo,
As I stated in my PM to you, a good guide can give you a wealth of knowledge for any kind of climbing. And that just might keep you in the game when others have dropped out of circulation due to rigging errors, anchor failure, poor belay technique, STD's....
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wa_hoo
Dec 30, 2004, 2:11 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: guides are like condoms its probablly safer with but much better without Yet another mensa candidate's response to an honest question. Wa_oo, As I stated in my PM to you, a good guide can give you a wealth of knowledge for any kind of climbing. And that just might keep you in the game when others have dropped out of circulation due to rigging errors, anchor failure, poor belay technique, STD's....
Love the mensa candidate comment... but seriously - that's my goal. I'm not out to run my adrenaline as high as it can go. I have a 5 year old son I love and want to be safe and have fun. Looks like hubby can indeed secure some guide trade time, which sounds just like what we need.
Of course it's not hard, but the details are critical. You don't want to drop your rope when cleaning anchors, you want to be clear about not getting your foot caught under the rope if you fall, and who knows what else we might need to be watchful of - the guide should know!
I went outside twice with a very experienced and safe climber (partner before hubby started climbing) so I have some reference to base my trust on and that helps too.
I felt pretty confident a guide was worth it before, but after the info shared here feel even more compelled to get a good one. Thanks.
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