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crackrn
Dec 30, 2004, 7:31 AM
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What's the best way to take that kind of fall? I just sprained the bejesus out of my ankle taking a pendulum fall. I don't remember exactly the specifics but I'm guessing I tried to absorb some of the shock with my legs and did it wrong. Any suggestions?
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overlord
Dec 30, 2004, 8:05 AM
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dont take such a fall. but if you do, its better to have some more slack in the system (if the impact wall is overhanging or vertical, less slack if its a slab, in wich case youre proper f***ed) to kinda lessen the pendulum effect. apart from that, its better to absorb the shock with your arms/legs than your torso/head.
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thegreytradster
Dec 30, 2004, 8:51 PM
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In reply to: What's the best way to take that kind of fall? I just sprained the bejesus out of my ankle taking a pendulum fall. I don't remember exactly the specifics but I'm guessing I tried to absorb some of the shock with my legs and did it wrong. Any suggestions? What is not intuitively obvious is that the force involved is exactly the same as a vertical fall. Only the direction of impact is changed. That's why intentional payout of slack may sometimes be a good idea. Changes the directon of fall to a more conventional angle. In other words consider a fall where you traverse 15 ft from a vertical dihedral with your last pro. You then fall. Your total fall verticaly is 15 ft but now your direction of movement is sideways into the dihedral, BUT, AT THE SAME VELOCITY AS A VERTICAL FALL!. Ouch :shock: Just do what you can to make sure the parts that heal fastest hit first. A sprained ankle, consider you got off light.
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grayhghost
Dec 30, 2004, 9:13 PM
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Yeah, I broke my foot in a 60 ft. pengi-swing during a rappel, sucks when your in the middle of it and know how hard you are going to hit, just make sure you go in feet- first, kind of like a shallow pool.
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jt512
Dec 31, 2004, 1:03 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: What's the best way to take that kind of fall? I just sprained the bejesus out of my ankle taking a pendulum fall. I don't remember exactly the specifics but I'm guessing I tried to absorb some of the shock with my legs and did it wrong. Any suggestions? What is not intuitively obvious is that the force involved is exactly the same as a vertical fall. What force, the impact force? The impact force is much higher for a pendulum fall into a wall than it is for a vertical fall onto a rope.
In reply to: That's why intentional payout of slack may sometimes be a good idea. Changes the directon of fall to a more conventional angle. Slack reduces the impact force into the wall because it increases the radius of the arc and hence reduces the angular velocity. -Jay
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dirtineye
Dec 31, 2004, 2:10 AM
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How exactly did you fall? Did you know it was coming or was it sudden? Did your hands come off first or was it your feet? How much rope was in the system? Were you spinning? did you swing along the wall or swing against it? You are going to have to give a detailed description of the distances, the angles, your body position, how you approached the wall, what the wall was like where you hit and more to get specific advice. Since you are having to guess at how you hit the wall, it doesn't sound like you know what happened, and that will make it hard to tell you what you should have done other than in a generic sense.\ swinging into a wall. perpendicular to the wall: Basically you have to react immediately and get in a good position to meet the wall with your feet. You have to use your eyes to guide your feet. you want both feet to hit at the same time (probably you hit with one foot a lot more than the other) with your knees bent. keep your center of gravity between your feet. Keep your hands up (elbows bent) to protect your head from the wall and also absorb some impact, don't grab the rope. Along the wall, paralel: Try to keep from skittering over the wall in a spin. You might need to 'pat ' your way along-- if your feet or hands touch, get em off fast-- and ready to touh down again. If you keep contact with the wall for more than a split second at a time, you may start to spin. Do most of the work with your feet, keep em moving, and use your hands to protect your head (hands up in front of you, not grabbing the rope). IF you scrape your hands or other body parts along the wall you will probably be sorry. That's only two cases, and they assume you are already or are able to quickly get into the good position to make contact. IF you fall at some other angle to the wall or out of a double heel hook and get sideways or maybe upside down, things are a little different, but hte big thing is still , look where you are going, and protect your head with your hands. IF the situation is dicey, you should already have a plan for how you would deal with the fall-- in other words, know the fall consequences before you get into the falling situation and be ready to act in your best interests should you fall. And last, but truly not least, sometimes your pro will determine the kind of fall you take. For example, if you are exiting a horizontal roof, with a possible perpendicular (Or similar) to the wall fall, and you can get pro away from the wall, GET IT IN. (If you can get pro toward the roof edge in the direction yo uare climbing so much the better. Swinging out into space is so much better than swinging back into the wall) In a clean pendulum fall, your greatest horizontal velocity is when the rope is stright down-- as you start to swing back up, you lose some horizontal velocity.
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thegreytradster
Dec 31, 2004, 5:20 AM
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In reply to: [ What force, the impact force? The impact force is much higher for a pendulum fall into a wall than it is for a vertical fall onto a rope. -Jay Correctomundo; a cat named Galleo figured that one out. The TIME to fall is the same and since you must sweep out a longer path (arc) the final velocity and energy is higher than falling vertically. The bigest contributor to injury though is that parts a lot more fragile than the legs are more likely to hit first. Dirtineyes' point about placing some pro as soon as possible horizontally after the start of a traverse is important. You really need to treat it the same as placing gear soon at the start of a pitch. It's just as important, but not obvious to the noob and not often emphasized.
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crackrn
Jan 1, 2005, 1:53 AM
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I'm getting a refresher course in physics! Curt, I fell parallel to the wall, was just starting to move vertically (but at an angle) off the traverse when my feet slipped. I remember trying to bring my body around so I could absorb some of the shock with my legs but hit the wall too soon. I definitely spun once or twice. I must have braced with my (now) injured ankle but not in ANY kind of controlled fashion Those are good tips. I think my biggest mistake was not planning for the possibility of that fall. Like the graytradster said, I think I got off lightly.
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esallen
Jan 1, 2005, 2:14 AM
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Grip rope tightly, then cose your eyes and cry.
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chiranjeeb
Jan 1, 2005, 2:21 AM
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Thegreytradster : I think a correction is due. The impact force is higher not because you are tracing a longer trajectory. The kinetic energy generated in a 30 foot fall is same whether you fall that 30 foot straight down or fall that 30 foot in an arc (conservation of energy). The pendulum fall is worse only because in the pendulum the rope is not able to absorb that kinetic energy and your body is left to absorb that energy. Actually, the rope does absorb some enrgy in a pendulum fall, but it is not the same as falling onto the rope vertically. So if you fall 30 foot and smack into a dihedral, it is pretty similar to falling 30 foot vertically onto a ledge with the rope not absorbing much energy.
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dirtineye
Jan 1, 2005, 2:45 AM
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In reply to: I'm getting a refresher course in physics! Curt, I fell parallel to the wall, was just starting to move vertically (but at an angle) off the traverse when my feet slipped. I remember trying to bring my body around so I could absorb some of the shock with my legs but hit the wall too soon. I definitely spun once or twice. I must have braced with my (now) injured ankle but not in ANY kind of controlled fashion Those are good tips. I think my biggest mistake was not planning for the possibility of that fall. Like the graytradster said, I think I got off lightly. Ok, starting to get a picture. Were you leading or following, or top roping? If you were on pro, did you go back toward the last piece (as in leading) or forward toward the next pice as in following)? Glad those tips help. Edit: And since it was sa parallel fall, Scraping along the wall, now you can see how NOT trying to brace but instead trying to 'pat ' your way along with quick light touches and go with the flow might have helped you avoid your sprain. You would swing back and forth a little, but this is fine. Arno covers some of this swinging over the rock foot work at the start of his falling clinic, which I highly recommend to anyone.
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crackrn
Jan 1, 2005, 3:47 AM
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Curt, I was leading (woohoo! Sorry, still new, obviously, and excited about it!) and fell back towards the last bolt. I have a nice (rope?) burn on my arm from it too. I think I was so focused on trying to control the fall I didn't "go with it" and thus was more injured. Patting along the wall might have been more scary but might have ended up better. It's better now though...I can actually bear weight now! I've seen several references to Arno and his clinics. If I do a search will I get numerous threads with relevant info?
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jcshaggy
Jan 3, 2005, 11:16 AM
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I was above my clipped bolt to the left when i bailed on a 5.11c this last December. I swung and clipped the rope which flipped me upside down. Nothing beats knocking your head against rock while you are looking at the ground(I put it down to my own stupidity). Going to write a big THANK YOU letter to my harness manufacturer.
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nicklikesfire
Jan 3, 2005, 11:53 AM
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Instead of getting into a lot of pysics, jt512 is (for all practical and simple purposes, especially this one) correct.
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dutyje
Jan 3, 2005, 12:17 PM
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In reply to: Slack reduces the impact force into the wall because it increases the radius of the arc and hence reduces the angular velocity. :roll: Technically, Jay, it wasn't the angular velocity that hurt his ankles. It was the tangential linear velocity. Or, to be more precise, it was the sudden, rapid deceleration from that linear velocity that caused his pain. :wink: Responses composed with the intent to project maximum apparent intellect always sound so patronizing. (side note to crackrn -- he's right, though)
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dirtineye
Jan 3, 2005, 3:44 PM
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In reply to: Curt, I was leading (woohoo! Sorry, still new, obviously, and excited about it!) and fell back towards the last bolt. I have a nice (rope?) burn on my arm from it too. I think I was so focused on trying to control the fall I didn't "go with it" and thus was more injured. Patting along the wall might have been more scary but might have ended up better. It's better now though...I can actually bear weight now! I've seen several references to Arno and his clinics. If I do a search will I get numerous threads with relevant info? That "patting along" idea is how I describe it, cause I patted my way down (mostly vertical fall) a high angle slab once and didn't get a scratch. It was like playing high speed patty cake with your hands and feet, sort of, and it worked. I think most of the time a better way to describe what to do in a pendulum along the wall is "dancing along the wall", if that helps. Be light on your feet with quick touches, using your eyes to guide your feet. You could just go to Arno's website for clinic info, put Warrior's Way or rock warrior's way in a search engine like google. I think his site is the desiderata institute or something like that. I think the most important thing you have learned the hard way is that if your feet hit wrong or stay on too long during a fall, you won't like the result.
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jt512
Jan 3, 2005, 7:24 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: Slack reduces the impact force into the wall because it increases the radius of the arc and hence reduces the angular velocity. :roll: Technically, Jay, it wasn't the angular velocity that hurt his ankles. It was the tangential linear velocity. Or, to be more precise, it was the sudden, rapid deceleration from that linear velocity that caused his pain. :wink: Responses composed with the intent to project maximum apparent intellect always sound so patronizing. As your post clearly demonstrated.
In reply to: (side note to crackrn -- he's right, though) And therefore the point of your post was, what, then? -Jay
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dutyje
Jan 3, 2005, 11:48 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: Slack reduces the impact force into the wall because it increases the radius of the arc and hence reduces the angular velocity. :roll: Technically, Jay, it wasn't the angular velocity that hurt his ankles. It was the tangential linear velocity. Or, to be more precise, it was the sudden, rapid deceleration from that linear velocity that caused his pain. :wink: Responses composed with the intent to project maximum apparent intellect always sound so patronizing. As your post clearly demonstrated. In reply to: (side note to crackrn -- he's right, though) And therefore the point of your post was, what, then? -Jay to get you riled up.
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rockrat_co
Jan 13, 2005, 2:44 AM
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IF you can tell when you may launch off, jump off in the direction of your last pro, this will minimize the fall's impact. Just to inform; a fifteen foot pendulum fall (spelling??) can exert forces similar to getting hit by a car going 30 miles per hour on your body! Awesome isn't it??! :shock: :wink:
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4togo
Jan 17, 2006, 3:52 AM
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In reply to: That "patting along" idea is how I describe it, cause I patted my way down (mostly vertical fall) a high angle slab once and didn't get a scratch. It was like playing high speed patty cake with your hands and feet, sort of, and it worked. As part of learning to place gear this summer I took "lead falls" with a toprope back-up. The climb was mostly slab and I was told to basically run backwards as fast as I could. Give in to the fall, in particular no knees / crouching on the rock. Worked really well. Is this "patting along" concept basically the same thing? Or a version for use on higher-angle slab? Trying to get a mental picture since I have yet to read Arno's book. (side note -- falling like that, with a good dynamic belay (and of course the mental training wheels of the top-rope backup) was FUN! I'm running backwards down the rock... I'm running backwards down the rock... I'm running backwa.. hey, I stopped running?)
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majid_sabet
Jan 17, 2006, 4:20 AM
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I remember one case of Peng 10-15 feet fall + short swing 2-3 feet, climber hide the side of the rock with his climbing rack, broke 2-3 ribs 21 pitches up .
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robdotcalm
Jan 17, 2006, 4:34 AM
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Jay: The problem I have with just giving slack is that the system isn’t analogous to the figure skater who increases her angular velocity while twirling by bringing her arms closer to her body. In other words, she’s in a situation in which angular momentum is conserved. Not so for the climber. Giving slack causes the climber to fall further down the cliff before hitting wall. As an example, it there’s a meter of rope out, which is held tight, then when the climber bangs into the wall, his body needs to dissipate the potential energy from falling vertically 1 meter. If slack is provided so that 2 meters of rope is out, his body needs to dissipate the energy from falling 2 meters. (Obvious simplification in ignoring such items as energy absorption by rope, etc. Just trying to make point that energy is being put into the system so that angular momentum is not conserved.) I’m not saying one shouldn’t give out slack, but rather it’s a complicated problem, which most likely would call for different actions in different situations. Cheers, RobKelman.calm 16-Jan-06 21:24:00 MST (-6 UMT)
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jt512
Jan 17, 2006, 5:07 AM
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fucking website
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jt512
Jan 17, 2006, 5:09 AM
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In reply to: Jay: The problem I have with just giving slack is that the system isn’t analogous to the figure skater who increases her angular velocity while twirling by bringing her arms closer to her body. In other words, she’s in a situation in which angular momentum is conserved. Not so for the climber. Giving slack causes the climber to fall further down the cliff before hitting wall. As an example, it there’s a meter of rope out, which is held tight, then when the climber bangs into the wall, his body needs to dissipate the potential energy from falling vertically 1 meter. If slack is provided so that 2 meters of rope is out, his body needs to dissipate the energy from falling 2 meters. (Obvious simplification in ignoring such items as energy absorption by rope, etc. Just trying to make point that energy is being put into the system so that angular momentum is not conserved.) I’m not saying one shouldn’t give out slack, but rather it’s a complicated problem, which most likely would call for different actions in different situations. Cheers, RobKelman.calm 16-Jan-06 21:24:00 MST (-6 UMT) Pnedulum fall: give slack. It really is that simple, though I'm sure the collective internet community will have no trouble coming up with several pathological counter-examples. Jay
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curt
Jan 17, 2006, 5:20 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: Jay: The problem I have with just giving slack is that the system isn’t analogous to the figure skater who increases her angular velocity while twirling by bringing her arms closer to her body. In other words, she’s in a situation in which angular momentum is conserved. Not so for the climber. Giving slack causes the climber to fall further down the cliff before hitting wall. As an example, it there’s a meter of rope out, which is held tight, then when the climber bangs into the wall, his body needs to dissipate the potential energy from falling vertically 1 meter. If slack is provided so that 2 meters of rope is out, his body needs to dissipate the energy from falling 2 meters. (Obvious simplification in ignoring such items as energy absorption by rope, etc. Just trying to make point that energy is being put into the system so that angular momentum is not conserved.) I’m not saying one shouldn’t give out slack, but rather it’s a complicated problem, which most likely would call for different actions in different situations. Cheers, RobKelman.calm 16-Jan-06 21:24:00 MST (-6 UMT) Pnedulum fall: give slack. It really is that simple, though I'm sure the collective internet community will have no trouble coming up with several pathological counter-examples. Jay No, it's not that simple--it's situational. Feed out slack and mgh increases. Curt
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