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dxmetal
Jan 25, 2005, 7:03 PM
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Looking to get a new Insulation jacket. :?:
1) Do I save money and buy a non water resistant down jacket and then wear my shell over it ?
2) What ?? at that cold of temp, it wont be raining anyways, buy a down jacket a size bigger so you can wear it over all your layers.
3) Bite the bullet and buy Gore dryloft or other water resistant materials (which ?), because you need to wear the down over all your layers (even your shell!).
4) Syntetic Insulation is best for Alpine/Mountaineering/Ice craggin.
5) Hooded jacket or lots of beanie ski hats ?
HELP !!
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jackhammer
Jan 25, 2005, 7:08 PM
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I would go with the synthetic insulation...it dries faster, is more comfortable, and is more durable (for the money).
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chossdog
Jan 25, 2005, 7:14 PM
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Layer your synthetic (primaloft rocks) insulation over your W/B shell layer when its way cold or when you’re on a long belay. Check out Wild Things Gear Epic Belay Jacket and their new Epic Belay Bibs. Both are filled with 6 oz primaloft. The price is right, they are compressible and warm.
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slavetogravity
Jan 25, 2005, 7:16 PM
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The funny thing about wearing a down jacket. When it starts to rain, you can always put your waterproof jacket over top of it. Don't get one that's too big, because you're not going to be any warmer, and your going to look like a moron with your down jacket all bagging below your knees. As for anyone who says synthetic is better. The only thing better about synthetic is it costs less. If you want to stay warm and be comfortable get a well fitting down jacket, with high loft, preferably one with a hood.
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lambone
Jan 25, 2005, 7:22 PM
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dxmetal,
I saw your post on cc.com also, but I am banned there...
Synthetic vrs down depends on what you are going to be using it for. If you expect to spend long periods of time out in the elements with it, especialy at lower elevations, go synthetic. If you are high altitude mountainieering where weight is an issue and the air is drier, go down.
If you go down, I would suggest getting something with Epic fabric that is slightly waterproof and more breathable then dryloft. Get the coat big enough to fit over your shell. Wearing a down coat under a shell compresses the down making it less warm.
If synthetic get Primaloft, it's the best.
Get a hood if you can, hoods are much warmer than hats...
If you can, get both. I would rather buy a cheap down sweater and a cheaper synthetic belay coat then one really expensive dryloft expedition down. You will use them more, I have a Cloudveil synthetic belay coat that I use 80% of the time, and a Feathered Friends Volant parka that rarely leaves the closet, but when it does I am sue glad to have it..it's gotta be really cold before I will use it, like mid winter ice climbing in the Canadian Rockies cold.
One nice thing about down, it will last you forever, while the synthetic will eventualy lose it's loft and be less warm for the weight.
cheers, good luck....don't pay full retail, hunt for a deal.
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chossdog
Jan 25, 2005, 7:23 PM
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It's interesting to note that this year the NPS climbing rangers on Denali will be sporting 6 oz primaloft parkas and pants prototyped for them by Wild Things Gear.
No, I don't own stock in the company. Their gear simply works better then down when you’re climbing fast or playing where it can get soggy (read: The North Cascades)
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slobmonster
Jan 25, 2005, 8:09 PM
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The Wild Things layers mentioned --none all that heavy-- work great as insulation. I use a simple Primaloft layer as a replacement for a fleece jacket. But something BIG that fits over everything, a belay parka, is an indispensable piece. You'll only be wearing such a heavy layer when you're not moving at all, or it's just damned cold. Either way, outside precipitation shouldn't be a huge concern unless it's raining, humid, or maritime.
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slavetogravity
Jan 25, 2005, 10:14 PM
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In reply to: Get the coat big enough to fit over your shell. Wearing a down coat under a shell compresses the down making it less warm.
HUGH??? Are you suggesting that a person wear their down jacket OVER their water proof shell and not the other way around? Because if that's the case, then this suggestion makes about as much sense as wearing your underwear over top of your pants. :lol: Unless your Batman, the underwear goes on first and the pants go on second. The same holds true for the jackets. The insulating jacket (down or otherwise) goes on first and the water proof jacket goes on second. If you don't believe me, go out and stand in the rain with your down jacket over everything and tell me how warm after about four hours.
It is true that a shell worn over a down jacket will compress the loft of the down, but if that's really such a huge problem then the solution isn't putting the down jacket on over top. The solution is getting a shell that's big enough to accommodate layers underneath it.
That is all.
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dxmetal
Jan 25, 2005, 10:24 PM
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This response i got from cc.com
Imagine the scenario: its cold enough to wear a down puffy (which means its -15 C or colder!!!) but wet enough for you to want a shell. which means its snowing like hell. Now. You want to wear puff? imagine taking off shell, getting damp from falling snow melting on warm fleece, put on puff, put on shell which is now also damp on the inside..belay for 30 min...oh time to climb! Take off shell, puff gets wet anyway before you can stuff it in your pack, your underlayers get wet because you didnt have shell on while stuffing puff in pack, now shell is damp some more because your underlayers got damp and it got damp too, put shell back on, oops, got to adjust harness, meanwhile your leader is looking at you from the top of the route like you suck, because while you are doing this extra 5 minutes clothes adjustment, (s)he is freezing ass off.
:roll:
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slavetogravity
Jan 25, 2005, 11:01 PM
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In reply to: Imagine the scenario: its cold enough to wear a down puffy (which means its -15 C or colder!!!) but wet enough for you to want a shell. which means its snowing like hell. Now. You want to wear puff? imagine taking off shell, getting damp from falling snow melting on warm fleece, put on puff, put on shell which is now also damp on the inside..belay for 30 min...oh time to climb! Take off shell, puff gets wet anyway before you can stuff it in your pack, your underlayers get wet because you didnt have shell on while stuffing puff in pack, now shell is damp some more because your underlayers got damp and it got damp too, put shell back on, oops, got to adjust harness, meanwhile your leader is looking at you from the top of the route like you suck, because while you are doing this extra 5 minutes clothes adjustment, (s)he is freezing ass off.
To avoid such scenarios I figure you can to one of the following.
1. Say inside, eat microwave pizza and watch Dr. Phil.
2. Avoid getting any of your clothing wet, and ice climb naked.
3. Suck it, and stop being a such pant load. It's cold and snowing like a bastard. You're going to get a little wet, and your going to get a little cold. Just remember to try to wear the best clothing for the job when you do decide to go out there.
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overzealous
Jan 25, 2005, 11:08 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: Imagine the scenario: its cold enough to wear a down puffy (which means its -15 C or colder!!!) but wet enough for you to want a shell. which means its snowing like hell. Now. You want to wear puff? imagine taking off shell, getting damp from falling snow melting on warm fleece, put on puff, put on shell which is now also damp on the inside..belay for 30 min...oh time to climb! Take off shell, puff gets wet anyway before you can stuff it in your pack, your underlayers get wet because you didnt have shell on while stuffing puff in pack, now shell is damp some more because your underlayers got damp and it got damp too, put shell back on, oops, got to adjust harness, meanwhile your leader is looking at you from the top of the route like you suck, because while you are doing this extra 5 minutes clothes adjustment, (s)he is freezing ass off. To avoid such scenarios I figure you can to one of the following. 1. Say inside, eat microwave pizza and watch Dr. Phil. 2. Avoid getting any of your clothing wet, and ice climb naked. 3. Suck it, and stop being a such pant load. It's cold and snowing like a bastard. You're going to get a little wet, and your going to get a little cold. Just remember to try to wear the best clothing for the job when you do decide to go out there.
4 - Or just put a big coat on over your shell. I thought this was pretty standard practice (it is with most of the people I climb with). Wear enough under your shell to keep you from getting too cold when climbing, then but on a beley coat when you're not moving, on top of everything.
If you're going to be climbing when it's warmish (20-30 or so) synthetic might be better. If you're going to be in colder conditions the down shouldn't really get wet anyway.
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awsclimber
Jan 25, 2005, 11:14 PM
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A big down belay jacket over shell is standard for me.
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exposeur
Jan 26, 2005, 12:07 AM
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i'm new to the winter scene and am looking at pretty much the same decisions as dxmetal.. only difference is that i'm looking for the ability to use on backpacking trips as well as climbing.
here's what i'm leaning toward, from what i've heard/read:
instead of a fleece, go with a synthetic jacket. they're lighter, more compressible, and windproof. you'll still need a shell for when it gets wet out, but the synthetic will stay warm with some incidental moisture. i'm still wondering about durability compared to a fleece, however.
as mentioned by others, if it's cold enough for down it probably won't be too wet. mountaineers that i know typically put the down over shell and all when stopped and take it off when moving again. just get a baggy shell to be on the safe side.
one more thing to keep in mind.. it's funny how much dignity one is willing to forego when you start getting really cold.
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jimdavis
Jan 26, 2005, 4:07 AM
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In reply to: instead of a fleece, go with a synthetic jacket. they're lighter, more compressible, and windproof. you'll still need a shell for when it gets wet out, but the synthetic will stay warm with some incidental moisture. i'm still wondering about durability compared to a fleece, however.
Keep in mind that you will loose a hell of a lot of breathability with a fill sweater rather than a fleece. Durability IS another factor as you've said.
I'd just recommend a wind or soft shell to go with the fleece, especially for backpacking.
Cheers,
Jim
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glyrocks
Jan 26, 2005, 5:37 AM
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Yea, throw the down/synthetic over everything. You don't need or want to be spending time and effort taking multiple layers on and off. The shell is great when it's raining, but we're talking about being in really cold temperatures, not just chilly fall afternoon stuff. If it's really cold, it won't rain, it will snow or sleet, neither of which should leave much moisture on your insulation. Besides, the temperature (and therefore pressure) differential b/w the really cold air and your warm body will maintain a flow of air and moisture away from the surface of your jacket. Any moisture buildup should generally stay out of your insulation jacket, making a waterproof shell unnecessary. And, warming the shell up with the rest of you will help dry the shell as you warm up.
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greenmachineman7
Jan 26, 2005, 5:57 AM
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On a somewhat unrelated subject, but still slightly relevant:
I have a synth jacket that I've fallen in love with, because it is WARM. Except when I use it to move around a lot when it's cold out, then I sweat into it. Or, when snow gets on it and melts, effectively soaking the shit out of it.
Tonight for example, I went to my local outdoor skating rink and played hockey. After an hour of playing, I was soaked, mostly from snow melting on me, even at 3 degrees Farenheit.
I guess the moral of this story is that had I had a down jacket, I probably would've been hypothermic. And to boot, synth is cheaper, even if it doesnt pack down quite as small. And, find a jacket with a DWR.
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lambone
Jan 26, 2005, 6:42 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: Get the coat big enough to fit over your shell. Wearing a down coat under a shell compresses the down making it less warm. :shock: :shock: HUGH??? Are you suggesting that a person wear their down jacket OVER their water proof shell and not the other way around? Because if that's the case, then this suggestion makes about as much sense as wearing your underwear over top of your pants. :lol: Unless your Batman, the underwear goes on first and the pants go on second. The same holds true for the jackets. The insulating jacket (down or otherwise) goes on first and the water proof jacket goes on second. If you don't believe me, go out and stand in the rain with your down jacket over everything and tell me how warm after about four hours. It is true that a shell worn over a down jacket will compress the loft of the down, but if that's really such a huge problem then the solution isn't putting the down jacket on over top. The solution is getting a shell that's big enough to accommodate layers underneath it. That is all.
freaking newbies on this site think they know it all...your gumbyness shows.
dude, first off I strickly said down is not the right choice for warmer climates. down is for cold and dry.
second, you don't know what the hell your talking about.
who likes to climb in a big baggy shell coat that poofs out over your harness. yeah, I just love it when I can't see my feet on a steep ice pitch, it's so great.
a belay jacket goes over your shell. go buy the Twight book and get a freakin clue.
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jimdavis
Jan 27, 2005, 8:02 AM
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For under/ over a shell:
To each their own. If the weather is really pissin' out I'll put my shell on over it. I think it's generally accepted to wear it over your shell though, expecially if your doing stop-go belays and climbs.
What matters here? Staying warm and dry, do it how you want.
Dial your own system in, in a safe environment/ situation; and stick with it.
There are plenty of guys out there who wear wool pants and will tell you to shove your stretchy new "soft shell" up your ass. They just know what works for them...
Cheers,
Jim
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glyrocks
Jan 27, 2005, 5:08 PM
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Yea, Jim has the best advice here. It's taken me a few years of cold weather climbing to find a system that really works and keeps me warm. I know that's not a really freaking long time for you jackasses out there screaming about newbies, but it is still years opposed to a half hour reading internet forums.
Most likely, you're going to be cold and have an awkward and maybe frustrating time figuring your system out, but it's really nice having a system dialed. One of the guys I climb with takes about twice as long to get his crap on 'cause he doesn't know what will keep him warm yet. The other guy I climb with takes half the time I do. Takes time, and then it all comes together.
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stuckinmidwest
Jan 27, 2005, 6:09 PM
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1.Patagonia Midweight Capilene
2. Another long sleeve POlartec Powerdry longsleeve
3. Patagonia R1 Pullover
4.Weatherproof soft shell ( I use windproof/water resistant REI Rock Jacket)
This usually keeps me warm all the time in weather down to zero. The biggest thing for me is the wind, as long as that's stopped, the cold doesn't bother me.
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mtnbkrxtrordnair
Jan 27, 2005, 6:43 PM
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ok, forget the down, go with polarguard. If you get the size right, you can wear it over the shell at the belay, or layer it under for other activities like snowboarding on a really cold day (below 10 F. or so). In really cold conditions the polarguard layer will isulate better under the shell, but for belaying you won't want to take off the shell to put on the polarguard under it. It's really surprising how breathable the polarguard layer is. Polarguard is tiny hollow fibers that do a great job of transporting moisture. It's less bulky than down, more breathable and still insulates when wet.
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slavetogravity
Jan 27, 2005, 7:39 PM
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In reply to: a belay jacket goes over your shell. go buy the Twight book and get a freakin clue.
GO READ TWIGHT! Now are you talking about Extreme Alpinism, or Confessions of a Cereal Climber? Because if it’s Confessions, then all I can say is I made it about 2/3rds of the way though and had to put it down. Come to think of it, off all dozens of climbing novels I’ve ever read that one was the first that I couldn’t make it to the end. All that self righteous BS, about living in the extreme and elitist crap. “Gurrrrrr, I’m Mark Twight, I run around Chamonix beating my purple mohawked head against frozen brick wall, and I purposely reject the women who love me just so I can get used to the pain!! Blaaaaaah!” Had to put that puppy down. If there’s one thing in life I just don’t have time for it’s self righteous boobs. Now I’m not saying Mark had it all wrong and in retrospect I agree with you when it comes to down jackets.
I think Jim here sums it up best
In reply to: For under/ over a shell: To each their own. If the weather is really pissin' out I'll put my shell on over it. I think it's generally accepted to wear it over your shell though, expecially if your doing stop-go belays and climbs.
Now seeing as how that’s settled. I suggest you go buy the Knight book and stop taking your self so freakin serious. I’m speaking of course of Tami Knight. May I suggest “Everest the Ultimate Hump.” Funny stuff.
PS. Now who you callen’ noob?
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lambone
Jan 27, 2005, 11:24 PM
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Slave, I was reffering to Extreme Alpinism where Twight explains the best layering system for real alpine climbing. I don't read much of his other stuff either.
I think this guy sums up the benefit of the "over-the-shell" approach perfectly.
In reply to: Imagine the scenario: its cold enough to wear a down puffy (which means its -15 C or colder!!!) but wet enough for you to want a shell. which means its snowing like hell. Now. You want to wear puff? imagine taking off shell, getting damp from falling snow melting on warm fleece, put on puff, put on shell which is now also damp on the inside..belay for 30 min...oh time to climb! Take off shell, puff gets wet anyway before you can stuff it in your pack, your underlayers get wet because you didnt have shell on while stuffing puff in pack, now shell is damp some more because your underlayers got damp and it got damp too, put shell back on, oops, got to adjust harness, meanwhile your leader is looking at you from the top of the route like you suck, because while you are doing this extra 5 minutes clothes adjustment, (s)he is freezing ass off.
This is someone who has alpine climbed in harsh conditions.
Now of course it depends on the context of the situation. If you are sitting around in camp getting pounded by rain, sure...Gor-tex on top. If you are using puffy to keep you warm while belaying , over the top is just easies, and I argue warmer because your insulation isn't compressed under your shell. Remember, just like with sleepin bags, it's loft that keeps you warm. It doesn't matter that your gor-tex or whatever is under the loft.
You also recomended getting an oversized shell to fit over the insulation. Personaly i think this is a mistake. Mostly because when you do need to climb technical stuff with your shell on, you will benefit from having a form fitting coat.
My 2 cents - take it for what it's worth....free.
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scarpenter
Feb 8, 2005, 9:03 AM
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STG's comments were simply conventional wisdom. All the contemporary alpine greats are using new wisdom, and old conventions aren't very popular.
Steve House's article from R&I
Extreme Alpinism has a lot of value, I suggest it to anybody interested enough in alpine climbing to be on this site. Twight really explains the layering system well. Personally, I enjoyed Serial Climber, but I think the retrospectives at the end of each chapter are the best part.
Back on track, sort of, are there threads with belay jacket reviews? I searched a while and got nowhere. Some of the biggest difficulties I've had are finding jackets that are still made - the rest of the internet is full of discontinued products.
As soon as I find the right belay jacket and pants, they will go on the outside. (I know, try them all to see what I like best... I need a starting point.)
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