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vagabulla
Feb 3, 2005, 7:31 PM
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A recent debate with a friend has me curious about bolting new routes. I hold the view that if a line is in your grasp (or will be someday), and it’s worth it, bolt it. If the line is out of your league entirely, don’t. Now I do not want to incite the “to bolt, don’t bolt” babble, it’s getting bolted eventually so that’s not the issue. The question is this should a 5.11b top-roper bolt a possible 13+ / 14? Currently I climb in the 12+ / 13 range, and in a few years hope to be able to put down a route of this caliber. My concerns are that if my friend bolts this line, without help or consultation, the flow of it may be marred. Am I wrong? Before you answer here are the facts:
Routesetter (bolter): 5.11b top-roper
Possible Grade: 13+ / 14, V9/10 opening moves
Total FA’s: 5-6
Years climbing: 3
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jw11733
Feb 3, 2005, 7:40 PM
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I say sure - as long as he does it ground up.
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jw11733
Feb 3, 2005, 7:41 PM
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I say sure - as long as he does it ground up.
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gnat
Feb 3, 2005, 7:47 PM
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Sure, why not?
Isn't this America?
Should the Rock Police tell a climber where and when he/she can try a new route?
Seems like you are really only looking for validation for your own opinion.
If you are so hot about the climb, go bolt it yourself.
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j_ung
Feb 3, 2005, 8:04 PM
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This may be ambiguous territory. How does the 11b climber know that the line in question is .14 and not .17 or 18. What if the line never goes? Then there's a column of useless bolts on the rock that may even get in the way of other potential routes. I'll not say yes or no to this question as it's not my place to do so. But said .11b climber better be sure he knows what he's doing, otherwise he's just screwing with a community resource.
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bubbahotep
Feb 3, 2005, 8:04 PM
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So this guy can top rope, but apparently not lead 11b.
The proposed route has V9/10 opening moves.
He wants to bolt it, but won't be able to get both feet off the ground.
You can't be serious.
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ron_jeremy
Feb 3, 2005, 8:05 PM
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Should I let my climbing partner learn to aid climb by pounding pins into my crack and then having him stand in his aiders off of me?
SHEESH!!!!
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ikefromla
Feb 3, 2005, 8:06 PM
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Ignore gnat's negativity. It is true that a 5.11b top-rope climber would not have the context to know where to place the bolts on a route of that difficulty. If you are a 5.13 climber though, perhaps you should have a better understanding of the movement and the best location for the bolts. If your friend insists that he is going to bolt it, and you cannot convince him not to, perhaps you should ask him to allow YOU to do it. perhaps not as ideal as you bolting it when you are stronger, but better than option 1.
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vagabulla
Feb 3, 2005, 8:14 PM
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Gnat, I'm not seeking validation, I simply want opinions from the climbing community. Thank you for yours. And as for bolting it myself, I would when I felt confident in bolting something at that level. I've bouldered the opening moves and feel that it is beyond me right now.
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murf
Feb 3, 2005, 8:15 PM
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In reply to: Ignore gnat's negativity. It is true that a 5.11b top-rope climber would not have the context to know where to place the bolts on a route of that difficulty. If you are a 5.13 climber though, perhaps you should have a better understanding of the movement and the best location for the bolts. If your friend insists that he is going to bolt it, and you cannot convince him not to, perhaps you should ask him to allow YOU to do it. perhaps not as ideal as you bolting it when you are stronger, but better than option 1.
Why wouldn't anyone bolt a line they can't even touch?
Did we start tracking the FB?
Can you get into a guidebook this way?
Tell your friend to buy a big rock for his backyard and drill a bunch of holes in it.
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pushsendnorcal
Feb 3, 2005, 8:16 PM
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No, and here is my reason and of course there exceptions to my reasoning.
When bolting you should be able to see the best possible clipping spots in relation to where you can actually bolt, its all about compromise. The 11.B climbers I have either seen, climbed with or talk to don't have the ability to look at a 13+/14 and see the movement or the best possible spots for clipping.
Exceptions---
Don't get me wrong, I know several climbers who could bolt a couple grades above their current limit, but that is due to years (10+) of experience in bolting, learning from mistakes and developing a formula.
If the climb is extremely long and its a 13+/14 pure endurance route, then most of the holds will be mini buckets and clipping placement isn't THAT much of a concern. Example is the Pipedream cave in maple canyon, all jugs so clipping isn't the crux. [althougth with the person who originally bolted the great feast extension, did an extremely bad job because you are forced to skip two clips that are 8-10feet too far left. Just a waste]
Final Answer NO
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murf
Feb 3, 2005, 8:30 PM
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In reply to: Ignore gnat's negativity. It is true that a 5.11b top-rope climber would not have the context to know where to place the bolts on a route of that difficulty. If you are a 5.13 climber though, perhaps you should have a better understanding of the movement and the best location for the bolts. If your friend insists that he is going to bolt it, and you cannot convince him not to, perhaps you should ask him to allow YOU to do it. perhaps not as ideal as you bolting it when you are stronger, but better than option 1.
Why wouldn't anyone bolt a line they can't even touch?
Did we start tracking the FB?
Can you get into a guidebook this way?
Tell your friend to buy a big rock for his backyard and drill a bunch of holes in it.
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vagabulla
Feb 3, 2005, 8:53 PM
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In reply to: How does the 11b climber know that the line in question is .14 and not .17 or 18. What if the line never goes?
Neither of knows for sure what it will be. I just relate it to how far out of reach it feels. The moves are there and the line is obvious, but how to link them and where you can spare time/energy to clip has yet to be seen. The line could be 12a and I just have a really bad eye for unbolted lines.
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climbsomething
Feb 3, 2005, 8:59 PM
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Good question. Should he bolt it? No. Should he be stopped? No.
I don't know your friend's motivations, but since I am also a sometimes-11b climber with little (no) FA experience and little experience period relative to the big guns, I can say this: if I charged up the drill and giddily bought a fistful of bolts, I'd be bolting just for the ego pump, especially if what I was bolting was a purported 13+/14 that I couldn't touch.
Not for any elitist reasons, but he simply lacks the context to envision an elite line. I am an even worse boulderer- I have climbed like, 2 V2s. How in the hell would I know what V9/10 looks like? I don't. It's all the same from B1 on up :P
Buddy will embarrass himself if he insists on bolting this line and doesn't at least enlist a stronger climber's help. Surely he doesn't have delusions of keeping the first bolt red-tagged, does he? Will he get a sooper-sick-strong-brah climber to come in and confirm the grade? What if a pro comes in, chuckles, and says, no, that's a 12d but cool warm-up?
All he really has at stake here is ego and social injury, assuming your climbing community would go there (and assuming, of course, he knows what's he's doing, technically). Tough love- let him bolt it if he's so ridiculously gung-ho, as any climber of 3 years who TRs 5.11 would be if he fancies himself an FAist of extreem hyperconsciousness. I think he needs to put in more time as just a regular climber for better social and physical context. There's nothing wrong with that.
There's lots of climbing already in Vegas to get stronger on. He won't get bored. Leave the bolting to the senseis and don't rush it... or he can just make a tool of himself right now and put a scoop of vanilla ice cream on his humble pie. Whatever. The universe tends to work like it should.
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chossmonkey
Feb 3, 2005, 9:43 PM
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Why? :?
Personally I like to spend my time and money bolting routes I have a chance of climbing.
I suppose then he will red tag it, and expect people to stay off of it?
It's one thing to find a really cool line that you think might go, equip it, and then find out it is way over your head. It's quite another to equip a line knowing full well you don't have a chance in hell. Many times when there is heavy removal of choss it's impossible to know how hard the route will be or the route is too steep to toprope. That doesn't sound like the case here.
If he does bolt it at least try to get him to use bolts that can be removed with minimal damage to the rock if they are in the wrong place. Another thing to consider is that unless he uses stainless, those bolts could be rusted and rotten before anyone even wants to try it.
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abalch
Feb 3, 2005, 9:46 PM
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I can't believe that your friend plans to bolt this bottom up, on lead, but will rather bolt this from a toprope. Suggest to him, if he is really set to work this route, to only put the top rope anchors in, and only if the line requires bolted anchors. If there are good placements for protection, suggest he only use them. Some routes get developed only as a toprope route. If someone with more skill comes along and wants it to be a lead route, they then will bolt the rest of the line. If, on the other hand, as someone suggested, it is way out of anyone's league, at most their are a couple of toprope anchors at the top of the line, that someone might come along and chop if it truly is just a waste of bolts.
Working a route on toprope is ok by (some/most?) people when you are trying to figure out the line. Don't let him place a single bolt on the line until he either shows he knows where they need to go, or someone with better experience comes along at determines the best placements. I don't like seeing bolts willy-nilly on a wall, but if I have to accept bolts, I would prefer to see only those top rope bolts, if the climber doesn't have the climbing ability or experience to place the intermediate bolts in the right places.
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vagabulla
Feb 3, 2005, 10:03 PM
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I like that solution, using TR anchors first. I'll suggest that.
I don't think he plans on red-tagging it, he never mentioned it. He's the type to invite people to send a new route.
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healyje
Feb 3, 2005, 10:17 PM
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In general, no one should [rap] bolt a line far beyond their abilities simply to "stake a claim" to it - and if they do noone is really going to respect that or them in that effort. At best such an exercise will more likely be considered a pointless gesture of naiveté.
If the parties in question aren't within reasonable and realistic striking distance of actually pulling off an FA then they should leave the rock alone and go work on their skills in some other endeavor at least within range of their current capabilities.
It isn't an art project or something you own - it's a rock - and fixed pro should only be established on a line by someone with the knowledge, skills, and context to bring out the best experience a route has to offer.
It's somewhat of an unusal and hopefully uncommon circumstance, and this sort of behavior really isn't so much an issue for the community at large as it is simply a matter of [self] respect.
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guangzhou
Feb 3, 2005, 11:28 PM
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I would say it depends on several factors:
Is this a small local area? If so, the local should be a better source of information.
Has you friend bolted routes before? If so, he probably knows how to bolt and will know to look for the best possible clip stances. He can also get advice from other local who know about putting up lines.
Is your friend motivated enough to work the line? If so, than why not bolt it. Several routes have been bolted by high-end climbers that took a couple of year to seen a first accent. Having a project can be a great motivator.
While living in Okinawa I was one of the main developers. I spotted an rather awesome looking line and decided that it would go, but that it was much harder than anything I ever climbed before. I rapped and cleaned the route. Bolted it the next day. Two days later I cam back and attempted to climb it. I fell several times that days. After a several visits, I came back and was able to redpoint the line. While I was working the line, I let other local climber know where it was and offered them a go. It was fun to have a community project. We pushed each other, encouraged each other, and shared beta. I have no idea what grade it deserves, but it’s harder then 13a. I would say somewhere in the mid to upper 5.13 range, but no one has been able to repeat it yet. Including some of the locals who redpoint 13s. I myself I not been able to repeat the accent either, but several other climbers saw it and are now working the route.
If you friend has the vision, the determination, and the technical knowledge (How to bolt), then yes, he should bolt the line. I would like to think that he is not going to keep people off of it, but offer it as a project for anyone to work on.
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p_grandbois
Feb 4, 2005, 12:17 AM
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I agree that he can bolt it when he can do it ground up. I am gonna also re hash the bolting debate. Why not just top it. Even if it is a loose as hell top rope, bolting just F's up the line for good. If you can't free it just Top rope it and have a nice day.....why do we always have to see if we can clip bots....or pre clip then stick clip and clip the rope... I view this as no better than a loose top rope.
If it is a case where a life is at stake or it is too dangerous to top rope(which seems unlikely) than go for it, but otherwise don't taint a perfectly good climb with manky metal. :shock:
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vagabulla
Feb 4, 2005, 12:24 AM
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guangzhou, thank you for your insight. I agree, projects and inspiring lines are what keep us going. Without visionary climbers we wouldn't have the majority of classic testpieces we have today. A lot of times it's not the send that matters as much as learning from a route that has something to teach you. But I've been on plenty of routes that are beautiful lines that have horrible rope drag, ground-fall potential at the last bolt, the hardest moves are clips, and other horrors. Obviously the handiwork of an inexperienced bolter. In bolting routes quality greatly outweighs one's personal pride, read ego, in doing something on their own, in their own way.
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ikefromla
Feb 4, 2005, 12:42 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: Ignore gnat's negativity. It is true that a 5.11b top-rope climber would not have the context to know where to place the bolts on a route of that difficulty. If you are a 5.13 climber though, perhaps you should have a better understanding of the movement and the best location for the bolts. If your friend insists that he is going to bolt it, and you cannot convince him not to, perhaps you should ask him to allow YOU to do it. perhaps not as ideal as you bolting it when you are stronger, but better than option 1. Why wouldn't anyone bolt a line they can't even touch? Did we start tracking the FB? Can you get into a guidebook this way? Tell your friend to buy a big rock for his backyard and drill a bunch of holes in it.
Is there a particular reason you were quoting ME here? you are talking about his friend, where i was talking about him. I was under the impression that the moves were conceivable. if they are not to either party, it should wait i think for someone who can can do it. Vegas has some very strong locals, it will go eventually.
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stickels
Feb 4, 2005, 12:55 AM
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I don't see why not, as long as the guy can do a good job placeing the bolts to ensure safety. Since you are buddies you might give him some info on where you think the good bolt locations would be. This way you use your abilty to "envision an elite route" and his aparent ability to bolt one. I don't see why you kids can't team up and do it safely and correctly.
As an aside, this is a common practice in Europe. I know, this isn't Europe. Over there, there is as much pride taken in bolting a line as there is in claiming the FA. Ok, thats a stretch, but guys take pride in bolting lines that they can't climb. They then enlist the help of a strong climber to climb it for them.
It has happend here as well. Take Dave Graham. I doubt he has ever placed a bolt in his life. In one of the mags a while back did an article about him (the one where he calls Cheetos and Mt.Dew a "meal"). In there I remember him saying that a bunch of the .14s at Rumney were bolted by a guy who couldn't do them or bolted them with Dave in mind. I guess I could look the article up if you want. Also, I know that Dave went to Europe and climbed a few "impossible" lines, where the bolter placed the bolts only to abandon the project because it was hard. A route that comes to mind is Black Sheep around hard .13 or easy .14 or somethng. I guess that hard and it don't matter much.
Another thing to remember is that if he does bolt it and you do climb it and in the process get the FA, be careful with numbers. I would try to climb some .14s first, easy ones (if there is such a thing) so you know what a 14 "feels like". This way you have a view of what it might actually be rated, it might not be a .14 it might be a .13d+++++. I don't mean to be talkin' down my nose at you just some friendly advice.
I say you both should have a hand so you can both share the glory of bolting a great line or the shame of bolting a cow patty. Either way, it'll keep you focused to get strong and that, my friend, is a good thing!
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harrisha
Feb 4, 2005, 1:46 AM
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I said sure to this one. If the setter is competent and good at it ie: he knows where the bolts should go on the line let him. Personally you won't ever catching me slaming my money into a line I can't climb (onsite or redpoint, doesn't matter). If I can't have any hope of doing it I wouldn't bolt the line.
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danpayne
Feb 4, 2005, 2:01 AM
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If your friend is even only TOP ROPING at .11b I don't know why he would even need a line of bolts on a .14. If you can't lead .11b, it'll be a long freakin time before you are leading .14. I'd say as soon as your buddy can TR it, then he can start thinking about bolting it.
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