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vaness


Aug 31, 2001, 5:25 PM
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when should someone start to lead climb???


fiend


Aug 31, 2001, 5:38 PM
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That depends. In my opinion a person should be onsighting 5.10 outdoors before they learn to lead.
That's just my opinion though.


vaness


Aug 31, 2001, 6:07 PM
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thanks
y are you the only one that replyed to me?


fiend


Aug 31, 2001, 6:11 PM
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because your post has only been up for 30 min and the site isn't all that busy tonight.


paulc


Aug 31, 2001, 6:36 PM
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Well, 5.10 indoors means that at least they have some climbing ability. On the other hand a whole lot of people in the BCMC (BC Mountaineering Club) can barely get up a 5.8 indoors, yet lead outdoors.

You can still lead at any point, but having some climbing ability can get you out of tough spots, like the 5.8 that has 10 feet of 5.9 or is harder when the crux is wet.

Paul


Partner jhundrup


Aug 31, 2001, 6:49 PM
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I disagree that a person should be onsighting 5.10 before beginning to lead...sorry fiend. I started taking a lead class as the first class I ever took on climbing. If you aren't that comfortable at it yet, then you must lead easy 5.7, 5.8 climbs. It definitely helps to be onsighting 5.10, but you can be work difficult routes on sport lead, you just have to get comfortable with taking falls.

Jared


daisuke


Aug 31, 2001, 8:04 PM
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I did a lead on my second climbing class at my U, you have to learn to trust yourself and get over the fear of the fall (which I'm not over quite yet), you don't do that as much with toprope, in the end lead climbing is what it's all about.

D


fiend


Aug 31, 2001, 8:54 PM
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I guess 5.10 is a little harsh, but I think people need to realize that there is an increased element of danger in lead climbing. And if you are a better climber then you are somewhat less likely to fall on a dangerous climb. I have found that most of the easier climbs are not good for falling on. Climbs like 'Csharp or Bflat' at Roadside Crag, RRG, are notorious for breaking ankles because people jump on it as a first lead thinking 'hey it's only 5.6, I can lead this!' and fall off on the crux above a slab.
I just think that people shouldn't rush into leading too fast. I see an increasing amount of bad belaying/leading habits in newer climbers and I don't think most people are getting the proper instruction. By the time you're climbing 5.10 most people have had more exposure to climbing and it's dangers.
Also onsighting 5.10a at the gym where I worked was a guideline for whether or not you could sign up for lead lessons.


coach713
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Sep 1, 2001, 10:14 AM
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I like Fiends advise. I got started climbing as a way of staying involved with my Boys. 4 of which are now out of high school. Except for one boy, all have had to go through the 5.9's, and then 5.10A's before feeling comfortable to lead. One of my boys took right off and led from the start. Falling doesn't seem to bother him. Personally, I have gotten comfortable on 10's now, and will lead my first 10A Monday. Panic should set in around Sunday night.


vaness


Sep 1, 2001, 10:48 AM
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im not worried about the falling guz when im climbing i have my sister leave about a foot of slack so i dont feel like the rope is pulling me up. but ya thats kinda off subject
-jenn


kriso9tails


Sep 1, 2001, 12:42 PM
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I'm not sure about about always keep your eye on the leader. After a clip the climber is often on top rope for a few moves, and I think that you're obligated to look down for a moment to keep from neck pains. Line of sight is over rated: there are many climbs where you can't see the leader near the top, but if you communicate well it doesn't really matter. What was I talking about? Oh yeah, I also think the 5.10 rule is appropriate in most cases, under the assumption that they are going to want to lead harder routes (by harder I mean nothing that a beginner could walk up first try). I wouldn't teach a 5.9 climber how to lead on a 5.9 (which is the lowest graded sport in many places) because they might panic and screw up. I've seen it happen, and the belayer (through no fault of his own) got nicked in the head by the climber from 20' fall that shouldn't have happened. There needs to be a certain strength and confidence which can be found at any level, but is more likely to be found at the 5.10 level (for reasons I'm too lazy to bother with at the moment).

Many people learn to lead trad first, which works because there are an infinite number of trad rowts that are easy enough to walk through to learn by leading, and challenging enough to still be fun. Many people also learn to lead sport first, but don't have the dicipline to do it safely safely. Some have the dicipline to lead before they ever started climbing, and many don't. Onsighting 10a is just a way to have a little bit more assurance.



[ This Message was edited by: kriso9tails on 2001-09-01 12:54 ]


fiend


Sep 1, 2001, 5:51 PM
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As I was saying about people falling on the easier routes in the Red:

An 'aquaintance' of mine just got back from the Red. She had to leave early because she wrecked her ankle on the infamous Wadcutter, 5.9, Torrent Falls.


I agree that experience is what matters, as does belaying. I think that by 5.10 you should have a bit more experience than when you're still working 8s. (I'm talking about sport here)
Then again, some people are fully capable of leading safely their first time on the rock where others are completely unsafe and shouldn't be allowed near a set of quickdraws after several years. It really does have to be looked at on an individual basis.


jds100


Sep 2, 2001, 11:59 AM
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I'm pretty sure that "onsighting" means to lead the climb without beta or preview on rappel, and complete it without falls or weighting (resting on) the rope.

It sounds like there is a fairly broad consesus that 10a is the benchmark for strength and technique required for a top-belayed climb (TR or second on the rope) before moving on to lead.

Personally, I started leading and climbing on trad, placing gear on 5.6s and 5.7s, and then working my way up. A little later, I got some quickdraws and moved out onto bolted face climbing, where there were no features to place trad gear. The fear has yet to go away, but the skill to manage it continues to grow.

There's no question about having a competent belayer!

I think the climber can be getting stronger, and developing technique on TR on harder climbs, while still moving on to lead climbs that are below the physical limit. I thnk it can help keep the mental hurdle of the FIRST LEAD CLIMB down to manageable size. Then, the mix of TRing and lead climbing can work toward coming closer to the same level, so eventually the climber will want to try to lead the hard stuff first try, and resort to TRing only as last resort. And practicing with a trail rope while on TR is a great idea, especially when learning to place trad gear, and, really, in learning to gain a stance in general.

I'd vote for getting into lead climbing on easy climbs throughout a climber's development. Let the mental part of climbing develop at the same time and pace as the physical.

[ This Message was edited by: jds100 on 2001-09-02 12:01 ]


tovster


Sep 2, 2001, 12:49 PM
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I have been climbing for about 2 years and I had great fun on my first lead climb.

I scared the pants of my self but i did it.

Im my humble opinion as long as you think that you can get up safely with out having to be rescued you can lead.



kagunkie


Sep 2, 2001, 9:44 PM
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I can only speak from personal experience here so some of my ideas may not fit too well with those of you who started since climbing was revolutionized by SLCDs and stickey rubber. I do think its a good idea to have a balanced approach to learning to climb. That means after enough basic skills are learned start leading easy routes, to me that means anything rated class five (5.0-5.5) nothing will teach respect for the dangers of leading better than having all those ledges and low angle rock to hit if you fall. Theres alot to learn scrambeling up 5.0 chimneys and ledge systems, route finding, how to avoid loose rock, how to avoid rope drag, how to protect the second, how to find a stance for placing gear and all the things we experienced climbers have learned to take for granted. This is all done with minimum climbing difficulty so we can concentrate on using "the system" with safety and efficiency. Once you have all that experience down you can push your gymnastic climbing ability while leading. It takes time and should be done one step at a time. With minimum climbing difficulty you can concentrate on climbing safe! Then after your an experienced leader you can climb hard!


badawg2002


Sep 12, 2001, 6:27 AM
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I've done alot of climbing both indoors and outdoors and trust me, you need to climb atleat a 5.10 to learn to lead. Outdoor is alot different from indoor and you need to be climbing more then a 5.10 indoor to be able to lead. I've been leading for a while and i can pull off a 5.11+ outdoors. Just be smart!


jds100


Sep 12, 2001, 6:46 PM
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It is absurd to put a "necessary" or "required" number to some skill level or difficulty level of climbing before one can lead climb. Climbing is not simply about getting stronger, or about developing a specific set of physical skills. As has already been said here, there are routes of lower difficulty on which a climber can and SHOULD be developing ALL aspects of climbing. To say that one must be up to a particular level of physical ability before leading is to presume that the mental aspect of climbing is much less important, or perhaps much more easily and quickly acquired.

Such an idea can be logically extended to say that "a climber must spend two years on indoor climbing"; or, "must only lead sport routes for a year before leading trad"; it's all arbitrary, illogical, and disregards the very important mental development of the climber.


whateverjrs


Sep 12, 2001, 7:50 PM
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I've climbed a 5.11 and still don't know how to lead climb:)


k.johnson
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Sep 12, 2001, 10:00 PM
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I would say a good time to lead is when you, personaly feel ready to do so. Sharpen up on your skills, techniques, and strength first. Find all the information that you can about leading before you try it. I would also say find some one that has lead before and go with them to try it out.


kaptk


Feb 14, 2002, 11:05 PM
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I appreciate your post jds100. I am not climbing at a 5.10 level yet, but I would like to start lead climbing. Your point about the mental aspect of leading is right on in my opinion. This does not mean that I am going to go climb on a 5.8 for my first lead climb. I plan on going as a second and also using the technique that I have read about many times in which you are tied into a top rope with slack and take another rope with you to clip into gear that you place on your own. I also plan to practice lead falls as was suggested in a book that I have. If you can ingrain what to do when you fall into your head then it can become automatic when you fall, instead of flailing around and hurting yourself.


Partner iclimbtoo


Feb 14, 2002, 11:33 PM
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I'm with fiend when it comes to this topic. Yeah, 5.10 sounds harsh, but so does completely f*cking yourself up. I guess that I would rather someone spend a while climbing until they are comfortable with it before they lead, and onsighting 5.10's is a good way to do that. I would probably say 5.9's or so, but still, some skill is definitely required. I also think that before someone leads, they should sport. I think that this gives a good idea to the climber of what it's like to fumble with gear and then place it. Before I started leading, I climbed sport and as I would climb, my partner would have me place gear. he would then go up and check out my placement job and tell me what I did wrong and right. But fiend, yes, I agree, I don't think that people are getting the instruction they need, and that is not only dangerous to themselves, but to other climbers that they're in contact with.


kman


Feb 15, 2002, 3:23 AM
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I agree with Kagungie. In my opinion, you should be very comfortable with the grade you are about to lead ( when learning ), so that you can focus on the systems. My first day ever rock climbing I climbed a 5.10. Was I ready to lead? Hell no. You should be mentally ready and be well aware of the possible consequenses should you f*#k up. I am in the process of learning to lead and place gear. Courses are a good way to go. I have lead a some sport routes just to know the feeling of what it is like to be above your last piece. Next I took a course to learn how to place gear and build anchors. Am I ready to lead a climb now?? Nope. Practicing placing gear and building stations at ground level and while on top rope comes next. And then...finally once I feel good about placing bomber gear and get a bunch of feed back from an experienced climber I will do my fist lead. Most likely on a 5.4 Just talking about it makes me feel all giddy


leadingedge


Feb 15, 2002, 4:11 AM
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If you want to lead you have to have someone to teach you while your doing it. Perhaps a person who knows what he/she is doing watching you or belaying you. Many things can go wrong.

Your ability should come in where by the wall should be easy for you. As your first lead climb.


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