|
lucas_timmer
Feb 10, 2005, 12:02 PM
Post #1 of 19
(2675 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 28, 2004
Posts: 562
|
A year ago I was climbing indoor and there was a group with beginners.The beginners were all secured by instructors and one of them was on the end of the route so the instructor lowered him off, but the climber was a small child who didn't understand the instructor who told him how to abseil and spread his legs and walk down the wall so the instructor walke sideways so the rope wouldn't get tangled with the climber. but because he was walking further from the wall the distance between him and the top anchor was getting bigger and when he lowered the climber to a height of 3,5 meters the boy felt because the rope was to short and shot trough the instructors Gri-gri.The boy wasn't badly hurt but of course it could be worse.The question is, whic of you use a knot in the end of the rope ???
|
|
|
|
|
anykineclimb
Feb 10, 2005, 2:21 PM
Post #2 of 19
(2675 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 30, 2003
Posts: 3593
|
If I can't see my rope end AND its not on the ground, I'll tie a knot in it which a good chunk of my abseils, I suppose...
|
|
|
|
|
grayrock
Feb 10, 2005, 2:24 PM
Post #3 of 19
(2675 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 1, 2004
Posts: 46
|
Last summer I read several accodent reports that could have been avoided if a knot had been tied at the end of the rope. Since then I have been doing just that, even in the gym. Now it is just a habbit. I haven't needed it yet and maybe I never will, but it is worth the price.
It may seem a little inconvenient, but it is like wearing a helmet at the crag - is there a good reason not to wear one? Just get used to it, no big deal.
|
|
|
|
|
overlord
Feb 10, 2005, 2:31 PM
Post #4 of 19
(2675 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 25, 2002
Posts: 14120
|
the dead ends of all my ropes always have knots on them. thats how i differentiate between them and the live ands. its usually a fig8, or the monks knot.
|
|
|
|
|
nthusiastj
Feb 10, 2005, 3:07 PM
Post #5 of 19
(2675 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 3, 2002
Posts: 1994
|
because you're a dumbass.
|
|
|
|
|
bill413
Feb 10, 2005, 3:52 PM
Post #6 of 19
(2675 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 19, 2004
Posts: 5674
|
I've always thought that knots in the ends of ropes in the gym were pointless. Thanks for educating us as to why they can be useful.
|
|
|
|
|
crackman
Feb 10, 2005, 4:16 PM
Post #7 of 19
(2675 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 18, 2003
Posts: 34
|
Use a system that you are used to and that works for you. If you always use the same system then U are less likely to screw it up.
Personally I will never put nots on the end of my rope. If I am the first one rappelling, I will use a PP (personal Prusik) If you are worried that your rope doesn't make it to the ground or the next anchor, You shouldn't me moving to fast on the rappel anyways. I have seen far more mistakes made by people pulling the rope with a not in it. Getting it stuck, then having to prusik up a VERY unsecure line being held by a Knot on who knows what. If you are going to put a knot in, Tie the two ends together so that you have to untie the knot to do anything.
|
|
|
|
|
iltripp
Feb 10, 2005, 4:18 PM
Post #8 of 19
(2675 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 6, 2003
Posts: 1607
|
In reply to: A year ago I was climbing indoor and there was a group with beginners.The beginners were all secured by instructors and one of them was on the end of the route so the instructor lowered him off, but the climber was a small child who didn't understand the instructor who told him how to abseil and spread his legs and walk down the wall so the instructor walke sideways so the rope wouldn't get tangled with the climber. but because he was walking further from the wall the distance between him and the top anchor was getting bigger and when he lowered the climber to a height of 3,5 meters the boy felt because the rope was to short and shot trough the instructors Gri-gri.The boy wasn't badly hurt but of course it could be worse.The question is, whic of you use a knot in the end of the rope ???
An overhand knot with a bit of tail works fine as a stopper knot.
That being said, in this case I would take a different approach. Tie a noose, throw it around the instructors neck, and string him up for letting the rope slip through (in a gym no less).
|
|
|
|
|
iltripp
Feb 10, 2005, 4:19 PM
Post #9 of 19
(2675 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 6, 2003
Posts: 1607
|
Oops... double post.
|
|
|
|
|
hex
Feb 10, 2005, 4:35 PM
Post #10 of 19
(2675 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 7, 2003
Posts: 110
|
In reply to: .....I will never put nots on the end of my rope. If I am the first one rappelling, I will use a PP (personal Prusik) If you are worried that your rope doesn't make it to the ground or the next anchor, You shouldn't me moving to fast on the rappel anyways.......
OK, even with a prussik you can still go off the ends, tis better just to tie the knots and not forget to untie them.
In reply to: ........Tie the two ends together so that you have to untie the knot to do anything.
DO NOT tie the ends together, it will be a horrible abseil. When you abseil the ropes untwist and if the two are tied together you'll end up in a big tangle before the end.
When abseiling and i cant see that the ropes hit the ground/next abseil point I put a stopper knot a meter or so from the end in each strand. First person down usually backs up the abseil with either a prussik above or an autoblock below the belay device (i prefer this). Then if the second doesnt have a backup knot the first person down gives the second a firemans belay.
link to stopper knot
|
|
|
|
|
zott
Feb 11, 2005, 4:19 PM
Post #11 of 19
(2675 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Feb 7, 2005
Posts: 9
|
I NEVER put a knot at the end of my rope. A few years back, my partner and I were absielling off a 1000 foot wall at 19,000 feet on a Himalayan peak. We were going on blind faith, at the start of each rappel, we didn't know where the ends of each rope had gone or where we would set pitons for the next rappel. It was the end of the day and beginning to snow.
Even without the knots our rope got caught in the rock at least twice. If we had knots in the rope, we'd never have gotten off that mountain.
For situations like this, I ALWAYS use a backup prussik, and I also mark the rope about 10 feet from each end with band of gym tape. The gym tape is easy to feel or see as it goes through your prussik or your rap device so you get ample warning of an approaching end. The tape also doesn't cause the rope to get stuck.
But if you're not attentive, it won't work.
... But then, nothing will.
--Zott
|
|
|
|
|
hex
Feb 11, 2005, 4:44 PM
Post #12 of 19
(2675 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 7, 2003
Posts: 110
|
In reply to: ....I also mark the rope about 10 feet from each end with band of gym tape. The gym tape is easy to feel or see as it goes through your prussik or your rap device so you get ample warning of an approaching end. The tape also doesn't cause the rope to get stuck.
the tape idea is good 8^)
|
|
|
|
|
sspssp
Feb 11, 2005, 5:16 PM
Post #13 of 19
(2675 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 2, 2003
Posts: 1731
|
In reply to: In reply to: ....I also mark the rope about 10 feet from each end with band of gym tape. The gym tape is easy to feel or see as it goes through your prussik or your rap device so you get ample warning of an approaching end. The tape also doesn't cause the rope to get stuck. the tape idea is good 8^)
The tape is a good idea until your belay device pulls the tape off the rope (more likely to happen when it is raining and the rope is wet) and your belay device is glued to the rope with a big sticky wad. :cry:
|
|
|
|
|
zott
Feb 13, 2005, 7:02 AM
Post #14 of 19
(2675 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Feb 7, 2005
Posts: 9
|
sspssp wrote:
>> The tape is a good idea until your belay device pulls the tape off the rope
>> (more likely to happen when it is raining and the rope is wet) and your
>>belay device is glued to the rope with a big sticky wad
How often do you actually get within 10 feet of the rope end on rappels or for that matter, when belaying. So IF it is raining AND this last 10 feet of rope does go through your belay/rapel device, AND the tape comes off .. so what?
--zott
|
|
|
|
|
far_east_climber
Feb 13, 2005, 12:42 PM
Post #15 of 19
(2675 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 30, 2003
Posts: 873
|
I usually always throw knots into the end of my rope, even if I think it reaches the ground as there have been a number of times when I have decided to change the direction of my rap mid-way down the line (due to previously unknown reasons) and end up finding I am too short. For grigris and tube styles I use a double fishermans knot with a few inches of tail.
|
|
|
|
|
joebanks
Feb 15, 2005, 12:04 AM
Post #16 of 19
(2675 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 2, 2004
Posts: 14
|
A few years back I took a girlfriend out climbing on a warm spring day. She knew the basics and we played around on some easy routes for the morning. In the afternoon I led a steeper moderate and had her lower me off; distracted by the day and the company I forgot the route was nearly 40m and rope was only 50m. I had also forgotten to put a knot in the end of the rope (I usually use a figure 8).
I can remember the fall clearly in my mind, and had lots of time to think about how I was going to land it. I'll never forget the look on her face as the rope passed through the plate. The route was a bit less than vert so I pushed off a few times as I picked up speed. The ledge I hit at 20m crushed my heels and provided compression fractures on L4 to L6 (spine), then I fell the additional 5m to the scree and rolled for a bit.
I was completely coherent and it didn't knock the wind out of me. First thoughts were to get my shoes off as my ankles quickly swelled to the size of catalopes. My back didn't hurt so didn't think too much about it. A couple rapped down to help; the big guy picked me up and carried me over his shoulders back to the g/f's car for the 2 hour drive to the hospital. Funny thing is, the hospital didn't even x-ray my back for a couple of days. Maybe they figured that because I didn't come in on spine board that it was a non-issue.
Anyway, 6 months in a wheel-chair, a year in rehab. It was a lesson in patience; the most frustrating moment was when my wheelchair got stuck in the gravel on the road into the playground (pull-ups on the monkey bars) and a little-old-lady had to push me out.
My heels still hurt a lot after 13 years and I can no longer do multi-day trips as a day of climbing takes a day or two of hobbling around to recover. That said I can go one day hard so just have to adjust my objectives. The leading head is a bit slower to come back and I'm pretty sure it will never be 100%. I'm back near where I want to be though(5.12, WI5), and will continue to climb but have learned quite a few lessons from the experience. Hopefully others will, too. Use a knot.
|
|
|
|
|
ron_burgandy
Feb 15, 2005, 12:27 AM
Post #17 of 19
(2675 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 10, 2004
Posts: 186
|
whenever I back up a rappel or belay or such I like to use a Barrrel knot. it works really well, and you can make it as big as you want. It is a really common stopper knot in the sailing world, but after being loaded it can be a touch tricky to get out... that where those mad skills come in!
|
|
|
|
|
alderak
Feb 15, 2005, 1:16 AM
Post #18 of 19
(2675 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 18, 2003
Posts: 155
|
I'd rather get my rope stuck 100x over at the crag than have the experience joebanks did..
for most of us, using a knot is just the smart way to go.
I use a knot in the gym climbing 40ft climbs on a 60m rope... its nothing more than checking to see if my knot is tied right and my harness is double backed before I leave the ground.... and I use a petzl corax.... its always double backed...
good habits can be pesky to develop, and do cost us small amounts of time, but in my book the investment is well worth it.
|
|
|
|
|
tradrenn
Feb 20, 2005, 9:26 AM
Post #19 of 19
(2675 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 16, 2005
Posts: 2990
|
myself I use stopper knot at the end of the rope and since I like to repel fast they stopped me 3 times allready. when I'm done just untie both of them and pool the rope, never a problem. Also you shouldn't tie two ends together because that way the twists in your rope always be there, two ends seperated and twists will undo themself.
|
|
|
|
|
|
