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neadamthal


Aug 16, 2003, 7:25 AM
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bowline vs double bowline
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i have been using the bowline to tie into for lead for several months now. i only just realized that i'm using the single bowline instead of the double bowline.

now to me, i don't see how the double can be any safer than the single. granted, it might have a little more strength, but does it really matter when its so marginal an increase?

thoughts? opinions?


dingus


Aug 16, 2003, 8:40 AM
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Well, it's twice the bowline, isn't it? (pitiful Merkin attempt on a British accent and all...)

And that has to be worth something!

I thought the double was stronger by a noticable margin and easier to untie after weighting. But I could be wrong. Me? The single bowline just isn't, um, beefy enough for my taste.

There ya go... that's the difference. When I shout , "Where's the BEEF?' the single bowline says nothing. Not a peep. But when I ask the double, "Where's the BEEF?" it replies "I got yer beef right here big boy."

And THAT is good enough for ME.

DMT


geezergecko


Aug 16, 2003, 8:50 AM
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Re: bowline vs double bowline [In reply to]
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From "The Ultimate Encyclopedia of Knots & Ropework" by Geoffrey Budworth - "With the reinforced nip, this knot (double bowline) is stronger (70 to 75 per cent) and more secure than the common bowline. With a fairly long end, it may not need to be taped or tied."


petsfed


Aug 16, 2003, 10:24 AM
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A single bowline can (and often will) slip even backed up. A double will not. The weakness however, remains, if you look at the knot. There is one point where its one strand instead of two. Keep that in mind.


meataxe


Aug 16, 2003, 11:36 AM
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If the second part of the double bowline somehow comes untied, you still have: a single bowline.


If the single bowline comes untied, you have: nothing :(


full-time-climb
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Aug 16, 2003, 11:56 AM
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I use the double for sport and a figure of eight for multi-pitch. Works great.


keinangst


Aug 16, 2003, 12:39 PM
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I use a single with a Yosemite/Jack's finish and a double fisherman backup. I've seen/read that the double is better, but the firsthand info I've gotten from the climbers I respect say that the single with the Yos finish and df backup is perfectly bomber...

any thoughts?


mike


Aug 16, 2003, 5:34 PM
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In reply to:
From "The Ultimate Encyclopedia of Knots & Ropework" by Geoffrey Budworth - "With the reinforced nip, this knot (double bowline) is stronger (70 to 75 per cent) and more secure than the common bowline. With a fairly long end, it may not need to be taped or tied."

Just picked up this book in the bargain bin at Waldenbooks for $5.99.


dirtineye


Aug 16, 2003, 7:02 PM
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Bowline with yosemite finish and double fisherman's backup is wonderful. I've fallen on this knot over and over, I've used it in 11mm singles and 8.5 doubles and it's always been a champ. The fisherman's backup never seems to do anythign on this knot, except keep the tail out of the way, and a bowline is very easy to untie even after repeated falls.


mesomorf


Aug 16, 2003, 10:01 PM
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Re: bowline vs double bowline [In reply to]
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In reply to:
If the second part of the double bowline somehow comes untied, you still have: a single bowline.

I don't think you're talking about what everyone else is talking about.

The only double part of a double bowline is the so-called "rabbit's hole." (As in "the rabbit comes out of his hole, around the tree and back down his hole".)

There's no way for THAT to "come untied" without everything coming untied.

Larry


mesomorf


Aug 16, 2003, 10:04 PM
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In reply to:
A single bowline can (and often will) even backed up. A double will not.

Say what?


neadamthal


Aug 17, 2003, 2:39 PM
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so what exactly is a yosemite finish? i do a bowline with df backup...


keinangst


Aug 17, 2003, 2:42 PM
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http://www.rockclimbing.com/...topic=37659&forum=16


abalch


Aug 17, 2003, 5:22 PM
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Re: bowline vs double bowline [In reply to]
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In reply to:
If the second part of the double bowline somehow comes untied, you still have: a single bowline.


If the single bowline comes untied, you have: nothing :(

everything you said would be true--if you were talking about a retraced bowline. Let me elucidate. You get a retraced bowline if you tie a bowline, and then retrace it, putting two loops through your harness. You have a double bowline if you have two coils at the beginning of the tying of this knot, but only once does the rope go through your harness. As you can see, with a double bowline, if it comes untied(unlikely) it comes untied, but if the retraced bowline come untied, (very unlikely) it is tied in with a single bowline.

Try this test. Go to the recent Climbing magazine where it discussed using a dogeared bowline as a means to build an anchor. if your bowline on your harness looks just like this knot, you have a retraced bowline. If it doesn't, you don't


lancebrock


Aug 17, 2003, 6:23 PM
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i would strongly recommend not using a single bowline. i have been using a double bowline for 4 or 5 years. i used the single for a short time until i looked down in the middle of a route and it had worked it's way loose (not untied, but just loose). they are just harder to keep tight, especially with a stiff rope. double bowline is the bomb...


dirtineye


Aug 17, 2003, 6:32 PM
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Lance, did you have a standard bowline that came loose, or a bowline with a backup such as a yosemite finish?

YOu can put the yosemite finish on the double bowline as well. Sometimes the double bowline is called the mountaineer's bowline.


alpnclmbr1


Aug 17, 2003, 7:11 PM
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anybody have a link for a retraced bowline?
dirt?


dirtineye


Aug 18, 2003, 8:18 AM
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Sorry, Can't find it. Clmbing used to have a pic of what they called a double bowline with bowline backup, which Ashley called a bowline on a bight and bowline, but the pic is gone. IF you have old Climbing mags, look back about two years ago or so in their tech tips.

IT's not a true reweave, as every part of the bowline is not repeated in the reweaving.

TO see a pic of what you should wind up with, check the dog eared bowline as some call it, but ashley calls it a bowline on the bight.

IF you should get a copy of Ashley's Book of knots, they are numbers 1075 and 1080.

The reweaving part you can figure out, if you want to use this as a tie in.


jt512


Aug 18, 2003, 11:19 AM
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In reply to:
If the second part of the double bowline somehow comes untied, you still have: a single bowline.

Not true. I think you need to look up what a double bowline is.

-Jay


jt512


Aug 18, 2003, 11:27 AM
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In reply to:
anybody have a link for a retraced bowline?

This is it, according to David Kastrup on rec.climbing:

http://www.rotpunktschule.de/.../images/anseil2g.gif


dirtineye


Aug 18, 2003, 12:08 PM
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EDIT: OOPS, messed up, the pic above is a bowline, but a really bizzare way to tie one.END EDIT

To tie the two loop semi-rewoven bowline uner discussion here, first tie a normal bowline, then with the tail follow the tie in loop back around and keep following the small loop and exit through the single loop that the main line goes through. YOu will know you have this right if you can untie it as if it were the dog eared bowline.

By the way, just as someone earlier mentioned, this reweave will still be a bowline even if the first loop somehow comes out, although the knot would probably be very loose then.

Climbing had a picture of this knot with a bowline backup and called it the double bowline with bowline backup, or dbbb, but that tech tip is gone now.

I think that this knot should have a bowline backup, as was givein in climbing mag, if you are going to tie in with it.

Again if you have Ashl;ey's it is knot 1075


jt512


Aug 18, 2003, 9:12 PM
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In reply to:
Climbing had a picture of this knot with a bowline backup and called it the double bowline with bowline backup, or dbbb, but that tech tip is gone now.

The tech tip of the double bowline with the bowline backup was just that, not a rewoven bowline.

-Jay


dirtineye


Aug 19, 2003, 7:42 AM
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to tie the DBBB, you use a reweave method for part of the knot. You can call it whatever you want to, but you still have to reweave, retrace, or follow part of the knot.

Again, the thing in the illustration is not a bowline at all, and as I pointed out yo ucan demponstarte this for yourself.


sittingduck


Aug 19, 2003, 7:59 AM
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Try this: make a bowline and clip two carabiners into the loop. Pull the biners in oposite directions and the bowline will untie. It is designed only to take force from one direction. I know of one climber that got killed because he used the bowline. He had to be rescued by helicopter and the rescue team clipped a carabiner to his bowline loop and lifted him off the wall. The bowline untied and the climber died. This would not have happened if the climber had used the figure of eight.


lazide


Aug 19, 2003, 8:09 AM
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Re: bowline vs double bowline [In reply to]
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Figure 8 knots are not designed to be loaded crosswise inside the loop of the knot. (see fatalities due to joining two ropes in a manner that loads them similarly)

Seems like lifting a climber that way was a very bad thing for SAR to do - not so much as a limitiation of the knot.

Personally any time I tie in to the end of the rope outdoors (the gum I train at REQUIRES fig-8 only there, so hey), I use a double bowline with bowline backup. Never had it worked loose by itself (It is a VERY snug and clean knot), and WAAAY easier to untie after a large whipper.

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