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Ask Dr. Piton....about Chongo's 2:1 Hauling Ratchet
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atg200


Oct 24, 2001, 3:51 PM
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Ask Dr. Piton....about Chongo's 2:1 Hauling Ratchet
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passthepitonspete


Oct 25, 2001, 11:31 PM
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Ask Dr. Piton....about Chongo's 2:1 Hauling Ratchet [In reply to]
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Ah, yes, the Hauling Ratchet. Probably Chongo's greatest invention to the world of big wall climbing, the Hauling Ratchet has revolutionized the way walls are climbed. With a 2:1 system you can haul anything and everything you want, even if climbing solo - bring your ghetto blaster, solar-powered shower and lots of water, and of course all the beer you can drink!

If for no other reason, it is worth buying Chongo's book just to know how to build this thing.

The Hauling Ratchet is a prebuilt 2:1 hauling system that is simple to make and easy to operate, once you know how! There are any number of ways to build it incorrectly, but there is only one way that it really works well.

The benefits of the Hauling Ratchet include:

- you can haul heavier loads with less effort

- you can EASILY cross knots while hauling

- if soloing, you can TIE the haul line right to the power point of the anchor and rappel from a knot

Traditional Big Wall Technology would require you to first put the haul line through your hauling device, thus your weight and hence your life during rappel would be held by a toothed cam. Having your life held by a knot is the better way.) The reason you can rappel from a knot is that with the 2:1 assembly it is possible to lift the weighted haul line and put it through the hauling device.

- you can switch from 2:1 to 1:1 and back again at any time

- you can add a space hauler for counterbalanced hauling while operating it


This is not an easy thing to describe with words, so you will have to follow along carefully. Dr. Piton will be happy to answer all of the questions that will surely follow.

The whole idea in building this is to make sure that there is minimum rope stretch, and that everything fits tightly together which will be explained below. If it doesn't fit together the right way, it will not work.

If you have done any hauling at all, you will realize that hauling with a static haul line is much easier and better than hauling with a dynamic line. Any wall rat will know it's worth the investment to buy a static rope for hauling. While the hauling ratchet WILL work when hauling using dynamic haul line, it will work MUCH BETTER when hauling using static line.

I would go so far to say that you really do need static haul line to use the hauling ratchet. At least Dr. Piton does, because Dr. Piton never does any more work than required to run a system optimally.
As Chongo would say, "Doing things the hard way is the sport of fools."



The Hauling Ratchet consists of two components:

The "holding ratchet" and the "lifting ratchet"

The holding ratchet is nothing more than a standard compound pulley (pulley + cam assembly) such as a Wall Hauler or Petzl Protraxion. You set it up like you would set up a normal 1:1 haul.

The lifting ratchet will do the lifting, and as the haul line is lifted, you will simply pull it through the holding ratchet (i.e. compound pulley) with your hand. It is this holding ratchet that holds the weight of the load as the lifting ratchet makes its strokes.

To make the holding ratchet section, you will need the following, arranged from top to bottom:

1 Upper Locker for Frost Draw
1 Frost Draw
1 Locker for the Compound Pulley
1 Compound Pulley (Petzl Traxion or Wall Hauler)


A Frost Draw is a wire quickdraw made by Frost. It comes in three sizes - you should buy the shortest, which I'm guessing is somewhere in the 4" long range.

You could replace the Frost Draw with a sewn sling tripled up - but this will allow a small amount of stretch, and the Frost Draw is much less of a clusterf*ck.

The purpose of the Frost Draw is to allow the holding ratchet (i.e. compound pulley) to sit a bit lower. Dr. Piton will explain the reason for this below. Remember, you must have NO stretch in the system. The Frost Draw will not stretch at all.

The Frost Draw is a very bitchin' idea, and is definitely the better way.

I also believe the Petzl Protraxion to be the best compound pulley for the job. While this device is clearly not the best for 1:1 hauling because of its small diameter pulley wheel, it sure is easy to use in the 2:1!

Please click here to see how easily the haul line installs in the Protraxion.





To set up your 2:1 hauling, you essentially begin with regular 1:1 hauling using the holding ratchet section of your 2:1.

Let's assume you have used a cordalette or web-0-lette to equalize 3 or 4 anchors, and to this equalized point you will clip your biggest and strongest locking crab. We call this crab your Power Point Locker.

Your anchor will look like this:

x...........x..............x
..\.........|............/
....\.......|........../
......\.....|....../
.........\..|../
............PP

where x = bolts or natural anchor
.......PP = big Power Point Locker



You will now hang the holding ratchet assembly from the Power Point like so:

........PP
.......

    .........|
    .........|
    .........|
    .........|
    ........[L]
    .........CP

    PP = Power Point
      = Upper Locker
      | = Frost Draw
      [L] = Lower locker
      CP = Compound pulley (Wall Hauler/Traxion)


      So far, so good.






      Next you must construct the Lifting Ratchet section. This is the 2:1 Z-pulley (that's like pronounced "zed" not "zee", eh?)

      You will need:

      10-15' 6mm STATIC lifting ratchet cord
      1 Lifting Ratchet locking crab
      1 Upside-down pulley for lifting ascender
      1 Locking crab for bottom upside-down pulley
      1 Inverted ascender
      1 Upper Pulley specially rigged with:


      A loop of 7mm cord permanently TIED through the pulley in as small a loop as you can possibly tie.

      Notes: The best inverted ascender to use is the Petzl Basic. It is better than the regular one with the handle because the distance from the cam to the base of the ascender is smaller. This will allow less rope stretch in the system.

      You might think that an the extra couple of inches don't matter, but they do. Any extra stretch in the haul line you lose will make you have to haul that much more unnecessarily.

      As stated previously, Dr. Piton NEVER wants to do any more work than he necessarily has to!

      A preposition is a bad thing to end a sentence with.

      The 6mm lifting ratchet cord MUST be STATIC. If it is NOT static, the hauling ratchet will not work! Use the most static 6mm perlon you can find. I am going to ask my static rope manufacturer, Highline Ropes of Alliston, Ontario if he might be able to make me a hunk of 6mm static rope to make this thing with. That would be best.

      You require the 7mm cord be put through the upper pulley so that the pulley can TWIST and add that extra degree of freedom. If the pulley is attached to the power point directly with (a) carabiner(s) there will be no extra degree of freedom, and the pulleys will not line up correctly. The system will NOT work unless you put that 7mm cord through your pulley.

      You must tie this loop of 7mm cord as small as you possibly can. The smaller it is, the less it can stretch. The more stretch you get, the less efficient the system. A bitchin' idea I just thought of now would be to replace this cord with a swaged cable, which would provide zero stretch.

      You are now ready to construct the lifting ratchet assembly.

      Start with your 15' 6mm static cord (lifting ratchet). I call the 6mm cord that forms the Z (zed not zee) the "lifting ratchet cord." I also call the whole half assembly the "lifting ratchet." Dr. Piton does this just to confuse you.

      Put a small overhand loop in one end of the 6mm hauling ratchet. You don't need to tie a doubled figure 8 - an overhand is preferred since the knot will be smaller. This end of the 6mm cord is the fixed end. The other end of the 6mm cord is the moving end.

      Now, stick the two pulleys onto the hauling ratchet cord. Starting from the fixed end, the first pulley to go on is the upside-down one, the second one is the upper pulley with the 7mm cord tied through it.

      Now that the two pulleys are on the cord, tie a BFK in the other end (the moving end) of the 6mm cord.

      [BFK = big f*ckin' knot)

      This will prevent you from LOSING your pulleys! (very important!) Since you will not be taking this system apart, you don't have to worry. Once it's built, it stays built.

      You are now ready to set up the lifting ratchet section of the assembly.

      Starting at the fixed end, the cord will run downwards to the upside down pulley (and inverted ascender) then back up to the upper pulley (with the 7mm cord) and then down again to the moving end with the BFK.

      You can see this perfectly here in Richard's photo.

      The fixed end of the 6mm cord AND the 7mm loop of cord through the upper pulley BOTH go through the same locking crab.

      It will look like this:

      ...PP
      ..[RL]
      ..!..BB
      ..!..!..!
      ..!..!..!
      ..!..!..!
      ..!..!..bfk
      ..!..!
      ...AA
      ...[L]
      ....|
      ....|....[this is the inverted ascender
      ....|__

      PP = Power Point
      [RL] = Ratchet Locker
      BB = Pulley w/7mm cord through it
      ! = 6mm hauling ratchet cord
      AA = upside down pulley
      [L] = Locker on inverted ascender


      Yeah, OK, the photo is way better than my stupid little drawing above, but that frickin' drawing took me two frickin' hours to draw, so I'll be buggered before I'll delete it!




      So now, you can put the two systems together:

      Note that there will be two locking crabs clipped into your power point - the first will have the end of the 6mm cord plus the 7mm cord on the upper pulley, and it is this locker that will completely support the "lifting ratchet" part of the system. The second crab will be clipped to the top of the Frost Draw holding the compound pulley. It is this second locker that completely supports the "holding ratchet" part of the system.

      As explained below, orientation is critical. Once you figure out the right way, you can set it up so both gates of the lockers open the same way. This way when you take it apart, you can put it back together again in the same orientation.

      Note: The PP is the power point locker. There is only one. I am showing it in two places to make the illustration easier to understand.

      There are two positions of the hauling ratchet to be shown.

      This first one below is the position of the hauling ratchet at the BOTTOM of its stroke.

      Those of you paying attention will realize that I have drawn it in a mirror image of that drawn above. Dr. Piton did THAT just to confuse you too!


      ..............PP.....PP
      .............[RL]...

        ...........BB...!.....|
        ...........!..!..!.....|
        ...........!..!..!....[L]
        ...........!..!..!....CP
        ........bfk..!..!...{..{
        ..............!..!...{...{
        ..............!..!...{....{
        ..............!..!...{.....your weak hand
        ..............!..!...{
        ..............!..!...{
        ..............!..!...{
        ..............AA....{
        ..............[L]...{
        ................|....{
        ................|....{
        ................|___{
        .....................{
        .....................{
        .....................v
        ..................to load


        .PP. = Power Point Locker
          = Upper locker on Frost Draw
          ..|. = Frost Draw
          .[L] = Locking crab
          .CP. = Compound pulley like Wall Hauler
          ..!. = 6mm static hauling ratchet cord
          .AA. = upside-down pulley
          .BB. = upper pulley with 7mm cord tied
          [RL] = ratchet locker on which fixed end of 6mm hauling ratchet cord and on which 7mm loop on upper pulley
          are attached
          { = static haul line


          You can click here to see a photo of the Hauling Ratchet at the BOTTOM of its stroke.

          This is the Hauling Ratchet at the TOP of its stroke:

          ..............PP.....PP
          .............[RL]...

            ...........BB.!......|
            .........!..AA.......|
            ........!...[L].......|
            .......!.....|.......[L]
            .......!.....|.......CP
            .......!.....|____{..{
            .......!............{...{
            .......!............{....{
            .......!............{.....your weak hand
            .......!............{
            .......!............{
            .....bfk............v
            ..................to load

            You can click here to see a a photo of the Hauling Ratchet at the TOP of its stroke.

            NOTE: The photo above is FUNDAMENTAL!

            Please study it carefully!


            It is on this second photo that you must measure everything. When Dr. Piton says "measure everything", what he means is to set this thing up at home and suss it out BEFORE you get to the crag.

            You need to suss out two things mostly. Firstly, you have to make sure everything fits tightly together, and secondly you have to make sure the orientations are correct.

            Both of these two steps are explained below and are FUNDAMENTAL to the proper operation of the hauling ratchet. What Dr. Piton means by "fundamental" is that if you don't do it right, it ain't gonna work.

            Ideally, what you must make happen is that when the hauling ratchet Z pulley is pulled tight so that pulleys AA and BB are squished tight right against each other (as shown above at the top of the stroke), the lifting cam on the inverted ascender is DIRECTLY BELOW the holding cam on the compound pulley.

            So what I'm saying is this - when you pull the thing up tight and lift it to its maximum lift cuz you've pulled the whole Z cord tight and there's nothing left to pull, the teeth of the inverted ascender are as close as possible and directly below the teeth in the coupound pulley (wall hauler).

            This is to MINIMIZE the stretch in the haul line. See, if the assembly doesn't pull tight, and say there is six inches of haul line between the lifting cam and holding cam, then on every stroke that 6" of stroke will stretch. This is lost energy on every stroke. Even a static rope will stretch enough to make you lose too much energy!

            It is for this reason that the compound pulley is put on the Frost Draw to lower it. Were it not on a Frost Draw, it would be so high that it would be impossible for the lifting cam to come up tight to the holding cam. Another benefit of using the Frost Draw is it makes things a bit easier to line up correctly, which is the second thing you must do during pre-measurement. The third benefit of using the FROST draw is that it is wire and therefore it does not stretch.

            So this is why you have to hang the compound pulley off of the Frost Draw - so that it is low enough so that the two cams can come tight against each other when at the top of the stroke.

            If the two cams do not come tight against each other at the top of the stroke, this means there will be extra haul line between the two cams. This haul line will stretch when you go back down to the bottom of your stroke, and all of this is WASTED ENERGY that you will repeat again and again with every stroke! This is called "systemic error" and must be avoided!

            So make sure it fits together right, eh? No extra space, no stretch.

            Yes, I just repeated the above step using different words. This is to make you pay attention! If you don't do this, the hauling ratchet will not work!

            It may appear to work if you construct it wrongly, and if you practise hauling with a lightweight load. But if you practise hauling with a load approaching twice your body weight, which you sure as heck should do before ever setting foot on a big wall, then you will quickly realize if you have built it correctly or not.

            The next thing you must do is make sure the lifting ratchet section is correctly oriented to the holding ratchet section so that operation is smoothest. There are four possible orientations of the Frost Draw-Compound Pulley with respect to the Inverted Ascender.

            These are: inverted ascender faces out &
            compound pulley faces out

            IA faces out & cp faces in
            IA faces in & cp faces in
            IA faces in & cp faces out

            You will have to experiment with the different possible orientations. You need to make sure everything cinches together tightly at the top of the hauling ratchet's stroke to determine which way works most efficiently. By efficient, I mean that during each stroke, the upside-down moving pulley can physically fit past the (not-moving) compound pulley. You also want the lifting cam of the upside down ascender to come up to its stopping point directly under the holding cam of the compound pulley.

            You will have to play around with the rigging to figure out the right way. This is called "Gear Fondling, and if you do not enjoy gear fondling, then you have no business in the Aid Climbing Forum!

            Once you have the rigging right, do it that way every time.



            To operate the hauling ratchet:

            You will be tying the moving end of the 6mm cord to your harness, the end with the BFK in it. Attach it to you by using a clove hitch tied through a locker on your harness. You can precisely adjust the clove hitch to the correct length.

            First of all, you have to find EXACTLY what length you need to tie the 6mm cord to the crab on your harness. I use a clove hitch cuz I can adjust it to the nearest cm.

            To measure where to put your clove hitch, squat down in your aiders. I assume you are hanging on the wall at this point. If you're lucky, you have a ledge to stand on, and your anchors sit high enough above the ledge you're standing on to allow you to put the hauling ratchet assembly on, and still have room to stand on the ledge. This is not always possible, and sometimes you will have to be hauling below the ledge.

            Adjust the cord so that when you are fully squatted the cord and pulleys all pull tight. This will be the TOP of the hauling ratchet's stroke as drawn above. Note that you are now "down" when the hauling ratchet is at the TOP. If you get three feet of squat, then you will get 1.5 feet of lift per stroke.

            OK, you're squatting. Now stand up. As you stand up, you need to make the inverted ascender slide down the haul line so that the ratchet can repeat its stroke. Although you COULD put hang some weight on the inverted ascender like a half dozen Lost Arrow pins, it's better to use your hand and actually hold the inverted ascender. The reason for this is explained below.

            You hold the inverted ascender with your "strong" hand. The position of your hands is fairly critical. I will describe my way, which is left-handed. You might prefer to do it right-handed.

            Left hand is my stronger hand, so it is the hand the I use to lift my body up as I return the hauling ratchet back to the bottom of its stroke. So when I haul, my left hand is on the inverted ascender. If your inverted ascender has a handle, then you can orient it to face you. Sure, I could grab my aider, or even a specially-constructed pull-up bar, but there is a better way. There is always a better way.

            I put my left (strong) hand on the inverted ascender and pull it down as I stand up.

            This accomplishes three things:

            Firstly, it means you don't have to put the pitons on the inverted ascender which keeps the clusterf*ck minimized.

            Better still, it allows you to lift yourself back up using a 2:1 mechanical advantage, thereby sparing your leg-squat muscles! You are lifting yourself back up to haul using a 2:1 mechanical advantage.

            The other benefit of having your hand on the ascender is that you can help steer the lifting ratchet section, and help keep it from grinding into the holding ratchet section on every stroke.

            Right (WEAK) hand holds the haul line above the holding ratchet, which is the wall hauler or traxion.

            OK, here is how to haul:

            Squat down. If the load is heavy, you can push your kneepads against the wall for extra push. If your load is REALLY heavy, you may have to turn your whole body upside down and push yourself down with your feet. Scary at first, it becomes second nature after a while. Needless to say, you are tied in with a separate belay, even though your weight is completely on the 6mm cord while you are hauling.

            As you squat you must pull the haul line through the wall hauler as the load comes up. Body position is of course critical. Figure it out. You have to adjust your leg position so that you get yourself situated at the ideal height to get the longest possible stroke, yet still be able to reach the haul line where it comes out of the top of the holding ratchet assembly.

            Sometimes as you are making the up stoke (meaning as you haul, and you are going down), the upside-down (moving) pulley will catch against the wall hauler (i.e. the compound pulley which is of course stationary) as this upside down pulley comes by. This is why you must make the orientation correct. You need this upside down pulley to slip past the wall hauler as easily as possible.

            You will now see why that small loop of 7mm cord is so important on the upper pulley - were it not there, you would have a devil of a time getting it to slip by and properly fit up tight against itself.

            As you are hauling, it helps immensely to sort of "snap" the haul line (and hence the wall hauler too) outwards and away from the moving Z pulley assembly in order to get it out of the way of the pulleys coming crunching together. This takes a bit of practice. Note that your weak hand (in my case, my right hand) is pulling the haul line through the wall hauler as the haul line plus load is lifted by the hauling ratchet. You will see that a properly timed and properly directed "snap" will give you just enough clearance so that the lower pulley slips by the wall hauler, and the two pulleys pull tight against each other.

            With your weak hand, you should be stacking the haul line in a rope bag as you go. Your strong hand is pulling you up on the ratchet's down stroke. It is when you are going down that you are doing the hauling. It is during this time you might need extra umph to lift the load if it is very heavy. That could be you turning upside down to push against the wall with your feet, or perhaps pushing with you knees. Sometimes if the load is heavy, you will pull up on the inverted ascender as you are pushing yourself down. This effectively increases the mechanical advantage to 3:1.

            When you finally finish hauling the pitch, the haul line is stacked upside down in the rope bag. Now you switch ends of the haul line for the next haul since the bottom of the rope is now on the top of the bag. This shares the wear and tear equally on both ends of the haul line. Dr. Piton will have to make another post about how to attach the haul line to the load.

            You are now at the top of the hauling ratchet's stroke. The load has come up about 1.5' as you went down about 3'.

            Now, to return the hauling ratchet to the bottom of its stroke to prepare to make the next stroke: Stand up, and as you stand up do two things - with your strong (left) hand push down on the inverted ascender, and at the same time with your weak hand, slide your hand up the haul line to get ready to take the next pull.

            Timing and fluidity are the keys here. You want a nice fluid motion as you push down to haul, and even more important, you want a nice fluid motion as you stand up. As you smoothly stand up, you smoothly push down on the inverted ascender to return it to the bottom of its stroke.

            Establish a rhythm, do say 10 or 15 strokes, then as you rest a bit and catch your breath, you can stack the haul line in the rope bag.

            How do you get your load to the top of El Cap?

            Practise! Practise! Practise!

            Cheers,

            Dr. Piton

            Good luck. If you can figure this out, then there ain't nothin' ya can't figure out.

            I hope you guys (and girls) all appreciate this - it took me over three hours to write. (geez, those diagrams are a pain).

            Now please tell Dr. Piton his effort was not in vain!

            P.S. The best way to practise the Hauling Ratchet is to go to the cliff and practise hauling a bag of rocks.

            It worked for me. Don't leave the rocks at the top of the crag for idiots to throw off - YOU be the idiot and toss them. Just warn everybody first!




















            [ This Message was edited by: passthepitonspete on 2002-02-26 09:19 ]


Partner rrrADAM


Oct 25, 2001, 11:49 PM
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Diagrams are more of a pain than you first thought, eh ???

Man you wrote a f*ckin book there brutha. You truley deserve your own Fourum.


rrrADAM


addiroids


Oct 25, 2001, 11:54 PM
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Awesome. Time to have a kegger atop Mammoth Ledges!!!!!!

Addiroids


paulc


Oct 26, 2001, 10:19 AM
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Hey cool new buttons, sup wid dat?

Anyhow, wow, that was one of the most detailed descriptions that I have seen of the hauler. Good one Dr. Piton, who I assume has his doctorate in philosophy, cause spending anymore effort just to get three letters would be "the sport of fools", right?

Now all you need are some cool pictures to replace those funky ascii art, pics and you'd be all set.

Paul


passthepitonspete


Oct 26, 2001, 10:46 AM
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If you want some really bitchin' photos, check out The El Cap Page.


If you click on my profile and go to that, you will get a list of El Cap routes I have written about.

Click on my ascents and you will read about my ascent of each route.

There is some good beta, eh?

This is WORK IN PROGRESS so please stand by for more photos.

If you go to my Iron Hawk story, you read of my first solo of El Cap, and will see how the Hauling Ratchet AMAZED the Euros!


If you go to my Zenyatta Mondatta ascent story, you will see what constitutes a near-perfect ascent.

Very bitchin' photos coming soon!

Cheers,

Dr. Piton

[ This Message was edited by: passthepitonspete on 2002-01-16 17:20 ]


passthepitonspete


Nov 12, 2001, 1:34 AM
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Yes, paulc,

Dr. Piton, B.S., M.S., Ph.D., has many letters after his name.

Everyone knows what B.S. is. Dr. Piton is particularly well qualified in this regard.

M.S., is of course, More of the Same.

And Ph.D. is Piled Higher and Deeper.

Dear Piton's degree in engineering doesn't hurt, either. He is still regarded as the student who did the least amount of work because he was caving and climbing all the time, yet somehow managed to pass.

Dr. Piton has kept his first year physics lab notebook because of all the smart-ass comments his lab supervisor made. Little does he know what an inspiration he became in Dr. Piton's later life.

Dr. Piton always insists that you build redundancy into all of your climbing systems. This is to ensure that should one component fail, the others will be sufficient as backup. An example would be a multi-piece equalized big wall anchor. Should one of the anchors fail, the others will remain equalized.

However in certain situations, it is possible to build in too much redundancy, such as the first year engineering student (frosh) who designed his bridge with a Factor of Safety of 37. Clearly, this is overly redundant.

Also, it would be redundant to ever show up earlier than you need to for work, class or an appointment. It is always best to arrive at the very last moment. Dr. Piton's definition of being "punctual" is "almost late".

Academically speaking, Dr. Piton would never do anything more than the absolute minimum required, because to do so would build unnecessary redundancy into the system. Dr. Piton therefore prides himself on graduating with a 60.01% average, proving that he met the absolute minimum requirements, but also proving that he spent not one second longer studying, working or attending class than was absolutely necessary.

It is work habits like these that have inevitably resulted in Dr. Piton's current career status. Obviously he is "self-employed" for the simple reason that no employer would ever be able to put up with him.

You are very correct, paulc, in your observation: doing anything more than is absolutely necessary would indeed be the sport of fools.

Sincerly,

Dr. Piton

B.S., M.S., Ph.D., B. Eng. Mgt., C.L.U.

[ This Message was edited by: passthepitonspete on 2001-11-12 01:43 ]


wigglestick


Nov 14, 2001, 12:56 PM
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Dr. Piton,
I think I understand how to build a 2:1 Hauling Ratchet. But how is that better than this setup from the petzl website which is a 3:1 system (I Think unless I am misunderstanding something)? Please enlighten me!!!!


[ This Message was edited by: wigglestick on 2001-11-14 12:57 ]


wigglestick


Nov 15, 2001, 9:08 AM
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Dr. Piton, If you could also critique these systems, I would appreciate it. Especially the 5:1. You have to imagine pulleys and ascenders rather than prussiks and biners in these. Thanks


bshaftoe


Jan 15, 2002, 5:38 PM
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FYI.

Here are the drawings oozing (Jason?) was referring to:
http://developer360.com/mojo/index.cfm?page=trip_report_two_one


beta


Jan 15, 2002, 5:47 PM
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Yeah, I discussed that particular link in depth with Pete, he indicated that the bottom picture was more efficient overall than the upper image.

Ask him why.

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passthepitonspete


Jan 16, 2002, 6:53 PM
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I am Dr. Pee'd On,

and if there's one thing I know about Big Walls, it's how to haul a TON of stuff!

As per usual, I have been ignoring my to-do list for too long, and this is something I meant to address some time ago, especially in consideration of how much hard work these guys went to to make the excellent drawings you see in the picture you see linked above.

I suggest you open this excellent picture in a SEPARATE window in order to refer to it as we read along here.

First of all, thanks to Richard Heinrich for making the annotated middle photo. This photo is close to perfect. It is perhaps the third iteration of Richard's photos, and is getting close to being right. If you look in my post above, you will see the perfect photos.

Please note when you look at Richard's photo, there are only two locking carabiners at the top, even though it looked like three to me. The red and yellow tape is on the spine of the green gated locker.

Thanks to Jason Liebgott for his bitchin' website and layout! There's some good stuff in his drawing, too, which is the bottom one.

And apologies to Phil Box for ignoring him so long! Some of his ideas, which are illustrated in the top photo, are pretty good, and if we fix the problems, that thing just may work. The way Phil has it shown now will not work efficiently, but Phil has actually already pointed out why and proposed pretty good solutions! I think that the Petzl Paw just might work if we can achieve the necessary degrees of freedom.

Thanks also to Richard for his cheaper alternative to the Petzl Paw, which is the Yates "Wall Rigger." When you are a cheap and lazy bastard like Dr. Pee'd On, you never work any more than you absolutely have to in order to pay for the next climbing, caving or fishing trip. So saving some money is always the better way since it means I can spend less time in the office earning it!

As for the "degrees of freedom" bit, that's Engineers' Shop Talk, but I'll explain. It's possible that the Paw or the Wall Rigger just might end up being The Shit! And if you have been reading Dr. Pee'd On, you will know that the only endorsement higher than bitchin' is to be The Shit!

In fact, I'm going to take the best bits from all three designs, to make the ultimate design. Then hopefully one or all of these boys will go out and re-do it and publish it here, thus saving Dr. Pee'd On the chore.

OK, so let's review what makes the Hauling Ratchet work efficiently. Sure, you can make it work, but do you really want to do any more work than you have to? If you do, then you have come to the wrong place, because around here, we are all basically lazy buggers who solo big walls on our holidays, and don't have the time or inclination to make things any harder than they have to be.

***

Dr. Pee'd On
refers to this apparent dichotomy of slothful indolence and technical brilliance as "The Better Way."

Study hard, and you can learn to be lazy too!

***

In order to make the Hauling Ratchet work most efficiently, you need to have a tight fit and no stretch.

By a tight fit, I mean that when the "Zed" of the cord is pulled tight at the top of the lifting stroke, then the two pulleys come together tightly, and the teeth of the inverted ascender come up directly beneath the teeth of the holding ratchet, which is either the Wall Hauler or the Petzl Traxion.

To avoid confusion, henceforth I will refer to this device as the holding ratchet. Incidentally, you could even replace the holding ratchet with a garta knot.

Unfortunately, NONE of the three drawings you see achieves a tight fit!

But do not fret - we shall fix it. There is always a better way.

The second thing we need to achieve is no stretch, and this can be achieved only with a minimized use of nylon, and a static haul line.

Again, NONE of the drawings achieves this.

When Richard first sent me the photo, I made two suggestions to improve the problem of stretch, both of which you see incorporated in his diagram.

The first was to make the tied yellow cord at the top of the gold pulley as small as it could possibly be tied, which you see he has done. Again, these photos appear perfectly in the post above.

The second was to replace the nylon sling, which supports the holding ratchet and has some degree of stretch, with a Frost Draw, which has no stretch.

If you think these two changes will not affect performance much, then you could not be more wrong! The Frost Draw is truly The Shit!

The length of Richard's components is pretty well perfect, because the pulleys close up tight and the holding ratchet is lowered a perfect distance.

There are two small problems with Richard's photo, which when fixed, should yield a virtually perfect system.

1. The main problem is that the inverted ascender has a handle. Richard has used a Petzl Ascension Ascender. This means that when the Z cord is pulled tight, the toothed cam of the inverted ascender is still about three inches too low. That three inches of rope, especially when the rope is not static, will cause a lot of lost energy which you will only realize after you load the system with 250 pounds of shower water and beer!

If Richard simply replaces the handled inverted ascender with a Petzl Basic Ascender, which you can also see in Jason's bottom drawing, I believe the fit will be perfect.

[Note: Richared has indeed replaced the handled ascender with a Petzl Basic ascender, which you can see in the post above.

The handle of the ascender is something of a pain in the ass, and it is for these two reasons - the awkwardness of the handle, and the extra haul line stretch the handle introduces - that I now use the Basic Ascender exclusively as my inverted ascender.

Phil's Rescucender, which we cavers see as a variation to the Gibb's Ascender, might well be the better way. Perhaps even the Microcender might work better still.

You click here to see a really swell selection of ascenders. It comes from a caving website, of course, because cavers have climbers beat all to hell when it comes to ascending.

I really hate my old Gibb's - it's a klunky piece of shite. The cam can be dropped since the cheapy piece of nylon attaching it to the shell disintegrated
twenty years ago. You can see what I mean HERE.




So, take Jason's Basic ascender and stick it on Richard's photo, change Richard's rope to a static haul line, and yer in biz.

Similarly, replace Jason's 4" nylon quick draw with a short Frost Draw, and he's in business, too!

Oh, in case you were wondering, Richard's second problem is to change the dynamic haul line to a static one.

I am intrigued with Phil's Petzl Paw. I would like to fool around with it. How expensive are those things, anyway? They probably cost about a buck and a quarter to stamp out of aluminum, eh? And then bloody Petzl sells 'em for like sixty bucks. Sheesh. At least Yates has the cheaper alternative.

The ability of the Paw to keep the pulleys separated which would prevent them from clicking together could be a real benefit. If you read the description of the operation of the system above, then you know that you have to sort of pull the end of the haul line, as it passes through the holding ratchet, away from the pulleys so the pulleys don't bind. The Paw would probably really help there.

Now, it's been twenty years since I studied engineering and physics, but when I say degree of freedom, I refer to how things move against other things. In the bottom two drawings, you will see the upper pulley clipped in with the smallest loop of 7mm cord you can tie.

I do not suggest doing this merely for fun - it is necessary to introduce the extra degree of freedom that allows the upper pulley to twist close to 90 degrees. If you attempt to attach the upper pulley directly with a carabiner, the system will not work.

Trust me.

What I'm wondering is, will the direct carabiner connection work with the Paw?

It might.

To clean up Phil's rig, let's first of all replace the clove hitch with a loop on the end of the Z cord. There is no need to adjust this end of the cord, so there is no need for an adjustable knot. Get rid of the knot tail!

Don't bother tying a figure 8 loop in the end of the Z cord - you want this loop as small as possible - instead tie an overhand knot loop just big enough to accomodate the carabiner. Richard's looks pretty good, but could be a shade smaller.

The immediately obvious problem with Phil's setup, as he himself recognizes, is that the holding ratchet is too low. There will be oodles of stretch in that Z cord the way it is measured.

A Frost Draw won't do any good, either, because it will lower the holding ratchet too far.

The obvious solution for Phil, if it were viable, and I'm not sure it is, would be to remove the sling entirely, and connect the holding ratchet to the Paw via two carabiners.

Will this work?

I'm not sure just looking at it. It might. The measurements will be tight, but the holding ratchet will rotate 90 degrees from where you see it now after you remove the quick draw. Will this removal of a degree of freedom bugger it up?

It's not "practicable" to put a short loop of cord on the holding ratchet since you have to open and close it all the time.

As for the Rescue 'Scender sliding down the haul line by its own weight, this is not all that great of a benefit necessarily.

You see, when Dr. Pee'd On operates the hauling ratchet, he has his strong hand in the aider grab loop or a pull-up bar, and he has his weak hand pushing down on the inverted ascender which has the effect of lifting Dr. Pee'd On with a 2:1 mechanical advantage since his harness
just so happens to be clove hitched to the other end of the Z cord!

If you have been paying attention, you will be nodding and thinking,

"Oh yeah! I "get it."

Remember, if you think Dr. Pee'd On actually CLIMBS El Cap when he solos it, guess again - he pulls himself up on his adjustable aiders using a 2:1 mechanical advantage, just like he hauls his load, and just like he lifts himself back up after hauling.

I mean, c'mon, eh?

Any fool can be uncomfortable.

I am Dr. Pee'd On,

and I thank the lads for a job well done!








[ This Message was edited by: passthepitonspete on 2002-02-25 21:25 ]


bshaftoe


Jan 16, 2002, 10:11 PM
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Warning, this post contains drivel written after consuming a couple of ales and is nothing more than observations and possibly dubious ideas.

I'm certainly not a big wall expert, nor a seasoned hauler, but I can grasp the discussed concepts and I have a couple of ideas.

Both ideas are based on utilizing the Petzl Paw in a, shall we say, unorthodox manner. (The aformentioned "Paw" with permanent cord/rope tied into the rigging holes.)

Quote:The obvious solution for Phil, if it were viable, and I'm not sure it is, would be to remove the sling entirely, and connect the holding ratchet to the Paw via two carabiners.

Will this work?

I'm not sure just looking at it. It might. The measurements will be tight, but the holding ratchet will rotate 90 degrees from where you see it now after you remove the quick draw. Will this removal of a degree of freedom bugger it up?

It's not "practicable" to put a short loop of cord on the holding ratchet since you have to open and close it all the time.

Idea 1: Place the "short loop of cord" tied permanently into the Paw and leave it, use a 'biner (or crab, or krab, or whatever) to clip the holding ratchet and "short loop of cord" together. This should allow the holding ratchet to swivel a bit and should allow repeated implementation.

Quote:Get rid of that damn third carabiner!!

The one with the green gate has got to go! Put the purple "Z" cord and the yellow pulley cord into the same crab, the one with the gold gate. The Frost Draw can stay as is on the red/yellow crab.

Idea 2: Because this is a rig you will be using over and over again on a big wall, I assume you will want to keep as many as the individual hauling pieces "fixed" as possible, simply utilize a empty hole on the Paw and "fix" the "purple Z cord" to the Paw with a, hmmm, rethreaded overhand? (The benefit being the reduced weight from not using the extra 'biner, and a permanently attached Z cord.)

(Note: Idea 2 is considerably more dubious in terms of usability and practicality. I am not certain that a rethreaded overhand would even hold. Again, these are just my personal observations.)

-Shaft

PS The Petzl Paw retails for about $40.00 US.

[ This Message was edited by: bshaftoe on 2002-01-16 23:47 ]


wigglestick


Jan 17, 2002, 7:14 AM
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PTPP- I don't mean to be a pain in the ass but what do you think of the other hauling systems I posted above. It seems like with a 3:1 you could haul 50% more shower water and beer than with the 2:1. I have tried the 3:1 and it works ok. Never tried the 2:1 so I don't know if it is any better. The only problem is that you have to make more yanking cycles per length of rope your are hauling with the 3:1. But I was able to haul just as fast as my second could clean so it worked out ok. Please offer you input.

[ This Message was edited by: wigglestick on 2002-01-17 07:15 ]


paulc


Jan 17, 2002, 8:47 AM
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Rethreaded overhand AKA water knot for webbing.

I don't think a rethreaded OH works that well for a piece of cord. It works well for webbing due to the larger surface area in contact, but on rope. Personally I think not , but I have been wrong before.

Perhaps pull the rope in question thru the paw and tie whatever knot of a just large enough size to prevent it from slipping thru the hole on the paw, added advantage being that the knot will sit up above the bottom edge of the paw and stay out of the way. Disadvantage that the knot may pull thru at some point.

Pete, wha'd ya think about all this now eh?

Paul


spike


Jan 17, 2002, 2:38 PM
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Hi Pete
Yates Gear has a Wall Rigger for $19.50
It has only 3 holes on the bottom vs the 4 holes on the Petzl Paw.
Revised question:
Static or dynamic rope - for "hauling".
Pros and Cons of both.
Richard Heinrich

[ This Message was edited by: spike on 2002-01-17 16:43 ]

[ This Message was edited by: spike on 2002-01-18 07:32 ]


paulc


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Static all the way baby, you use dynamic, it stretches, you pull more rope than you need to.

Paul


paulc


Jan 17, 2002, 6:43 PM
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And you owe me one too. Regarding the paw slung like a skyhook.

Paul


passthepitonspete


Jan 24, 2002, 9:17 PM
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Sheesh. You guys are making Dr. Pee'd On work for his money, eh?

A long overdue response for Wigglestick and Paul and Spike!

Before I crap all over Spike for him asking whether to use static or dyanamic rope for hauling, I have to give the guy the benefit of the doubt. In Chongo's book, Chuck writes,

Quote:
"A static haul line can statically shock load hauling anchors were a mistake to be made. Regardless of the reason, should the load take any drop onto the static haul line attached to the anchors of the station, the result could be deadly....A static haul line is for pros only. If you choose to use one, remember that should the load ever be incorrectly managed, everybody could perish, including those observing and theorizing below when the load, dragging the station and climbers behind impacts the ground on top of them."

I am trying to think of a way that you could drop your load onto a static line. Sure, it can swing, but the maximum force a pendulum can produce is only twice the weight of the load. The only way you could get slack into your hauling system would be for the load to magically raise itself, which unfortunately they do not do. I'm afraid I have to disagree with Chongo on this one.

Dr. Pee'd On HIGHLY RECOMMENDS static haul line for everyone, pros and gumbies alike.

Notes:


Were it not for the second law of thermodynamics, you could simply apply heat to your load or rappel device and up you would magically go!

One Big Wall Theorist more or less is of no consequence - there are more than enough to go around.




OK, first of all, let's examine Petzl's 3:1 Hauling Illustration which you scarfed from Petzl's site.

First of all, if anyone here has not yet checked out Petzl's Bitchin' Website, then you really ought to spend some time there. You can read a fantastic amount of information because these guys really know what they're doing. But while they have some truly great ideas and illustrations, their website layout really sucks! I cannot link you to specific pages because they appear as popups without a specific URL.

Sheesh.

At any rate, if you can find your way around Petzl's website, then you are pretty smart. I can tell you that it is worth the struggle.

That being said, Wigglestick's 3:1 illustration comes from an old Petzl catalogue. To better visualize how it works, you must first add some hidden components which are not shown in the illustration you see here.

First of all, I want you to add an "imaginary pulley" up and right on the pink rope. This will allow you to create a downward pull when you haul, instead of having to pull up as these guys show.

Get it?

[Note: If you are going to hang around here, then you had better be good at visualizing how stuff works!]

Next, you can if you like replace the pulley and Basic ascender assembly with a compound pulley such as a Petzl Minitraxion or a Wall Hauler. This will result in a slightly more compact system, and is the way Dr. Piton builds his 3:1 system.

Finally, you will need to put some weight on the "top" of the inverted ascender (which is pointing down) because you will need this
weight to allow the inverted ascender and pulley to slide down the rope. You will need a fair bit of weight - something in the order of six Lost Arrows on a couple crabs. Try to rack the pins so they are not sticking out all over the place.



Is the 3:1 a better system than the 2:1?
Given the choice, would you preferentially choose the 3:1 over the 2:1?

In almost all cases - NO.



In nearly every situation, the 3:1 is OVERKILL! Even guys like me, who haul enormous quantities of beer and shower water plus coffee press, microwave oven, colour (with a "u") TV set, La-ZED-boy recliner chair, and of course laptop computer and cell phone modem do not need to use a 3:1 haul except in certain circumstances.

These circumstances include lifting a heavy load and overcoming friction.

I will give you a couple examples. On my solo ascent of Native Son, I made the mistake of building my load at an Advance Base Camp on a ledge at the top of the second pitch. I had fixed to the top of the fifth pitch.

This caused two problems.

Firstly, when it was time to blast off, I jugged up to the top of two, then realized that I had to cut the load free with myself hanging on it!

Think about it ..... I couldn't just leave it sitting there on the ledge because it would fall off, and yet my line from 2 to 5 was the lead line tied to
the haul line.
Yikes! Jugging that haul line weighted with twelve days' food and water was like jugging a steel cable!

At any rate, the second problem was that the load swung around a buttress and caused the haul line to rub against the rock. I simply could not budge it on my 2:1. But it came up fine under the 3:1, at least until it cleared the buttress and I could switch back to 2:1.

Good thing with the knot coming up - see below.

The second time I used a 3:1 haul was on the first haul of my solo ascent of Zenyatta Mondatta, when the haul line again brushed against the cliff directly beneath the haul station, and I had some extra appliances with me.



There are three big problems with the 3:1 compared to the 2:1:

You cannot cross knots easily like you can with the 2:1

You have to keep "resetting" the damn thing

It takes freakin' forever to get your load up!


When it comes to crossing knots, the 2:1 is a piece of piss. The reason I advocate using a three-metre-long "ZED" cord on the 2:1, incidentally, is so that you can lower the lifting ratchet far enough to easily cross the knot.

With the 3:1, you can see that the haul line itself forms the "ZED". This means that the haul line passes through the whole system. With the 2:1, you can lift the knot with the ZED-cord and support the weight of the load independently of the holding ratchet, which allows you easily to move the knot around the holding ratchet. But with the 3:1, holding the load requires the use of the holding ratchet at all times.

If you are using a 3:1 and you need to cross a knot, the best thing to do is to switch to a 2:1.



OPERATION OF THE 3:1 HAULING SYSTEM


After you set it up as shown, the first thing you must do is allow the inverted ascender and pulley to drop down the haul line. A good distance is about fifteen feet. This means that you will have to let thirty feet of haul line slip through the system. The inverted ascender must have enough weight attached to it so that it will easily slide down. Hopefully you have built your hauling station in such a way that the haul line hangs free for fifteen feet below without touching the rock. If it does touch the rock, then you may have to use your leg as a lever in order to pry the haul line away from the rock to allow the inverted ascender to slide down unimpeded. Note that one of the reasons you may need to use the 3:1 over the 2:1 is because you need to overcome the friction of the haul line rubbing on the rock. Yet if the rub point is within fifteen feet of your hauling
station, you may not be able to operate the 3:1!

Put your jugs on the free end of the haul line which runs through the invisible pulley, and start jugging.

As you jug, stack the free end of the haul line into the haul line bag.

Keep jugging! You have to jug forty-five feet to raise that load only fifteen feet!

Once you get the inverted ascender up to you, it is time to "reset" the system. This means that you have to let out thirty feet of rope
you just stacked! What a pain! Start unstacking!

If it seems like you're jugging forever, that your load does not seem to be coming up very fast, and that you keep letting out the rope you just stacked, then you are enjoying all the "benefits" of the 3:1.


Note: If you are climbing in the heat of summer, and you are carrying extra water for both your shower and in order to compensate for the dehydrating effects of your extra beer, then you may have to haul with a 3:1 for the first day or two.



As far as 5:1 and 7:1 hauling systems are concerned, these are better left to Big Wall Theorists. I cannot imagine ever needing to use one.

There is a 6:1 hauling system for crevasse rescue called the Mariner which I cannot find anywhere on the www. The only place I can find it is in the printed Petzl Catalogue. The way the 6:1 appears earlier in this post looks stupid.



I do not like the idea of putting a sling through the Paw or the Wall Rigger because I do not know how sharp the edges of the plate are. There are enormous forces generated when hauling hundreds of pounds of gear. I believe you should only put a carabiner through the plate. I believe that the plate will work very handily indeed for this, and that the separation that prevents the pulleys from rubbing together will end up being the better way.

We will have to play around measuring distances and ensuring appropriate degrees of freedom, but I believe we will get it to work without resorting to putting a sling directly through the plate slung like a skyhook. This would create a necessary extra degree of freedom without sacrificing any height, but we can play around with crabs and Frost Draws to make that little pecker SING!



I predict that using a Paw or Wall Rigger for a 2:1 Hauling Ratchet will end up being The Shit.

Fortunately, we have our Very Own Expert Off-Wall Testing Engineer at work on this.
Richard tells me he has ordered a Wall Rigger and will be able to produce another bitchin' photo for us to pick apart and improve, thus sparing Dr. Piton the effort.

Dr. Piton himself may end up buying a Wall Rigger.


paulc


Jan 29, 2002, 5:11 PM
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Pete;

While I am a measy free climbing monkey, I think you still could use the paw slung like a skyhook. Yeah I agree that if you use a biner that would be better, but your arguement against slinging the paw like a sky hook doesn't hold water with me. Sure the edges could be sharp, but that is way easy to fix.

Don't get me wrong I would feel better using a biner too, but I still think you could sling it like a skyhook. It would buy you an extra degree of freedom if you needed it and you could easily correct for other length issues if you needed to.

Paul

PS I await the photos and true testing beta on this eagerly.


bshaftoe


Feb 4, 2002, 10:08 PM
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Just one more thought, and then I will patiently wait for the "perfect hauling ratchet diagram".

Quote:We will have to play around measuring distances and ensuring appropriate degrees of freedom, but I believe we will get it to work without resorting to putting a sling directly through the plate slung like a skyhook. This would create a necessary extra degree of freedom without sacrificing any height, but we can play around with crabs and Frost Draws to make that little pecker SING!

I wonder if connecting the Wall Hauler to the Wall Rigger with two biners and a $67.00 (US) Petzl Swivel would provide enough degrees of freedom?

-Shaft

--According to this site, the swivel is rated to 35kN.

--These are quite interesting.

--Or, replace the whole top rig with a single locking biner at the top of a Petzl tandem, and another locking biner through the bottom hole of the tandem holding a Petzl Basic (or Microscender?) for the Wall Hauler/Pro Traxion. The rest of the Zed rig would stay the same - on second thought, this would spawn yet another thread and a bunch of speculation that probably wouldn't be worth it.

-EDIT-
I was interested in seeing if utilizing the Petzl Tandem was even viable, so I created this image.
-You should be able to thread the 6mm static cord through the tandem pully and tie it to the top biner connected to the anchor.
-One problem may be that there is just not enough room for the Zed pully to clear the upper Basic ascender.
-Utilizing a small locking biner on the bottom Basic ascender, and a larger locking biner on the top Basic ascender would probably help.
-Another big problem is that it would be impossible to pass a knot without opening up the tandem pulley.

(Apologies to Jason Liebgott for copying the look and feel of his image.)

Any comments?
-END EDIT-

[ This Message was edited by: bshaftoe on 2002-02-06 08:49 ]


krustyklimber


Feb 5, 2002, 11:52 AM
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Ask Dr. Piton....about Chongo's 2:1 Hauling Ratchet [In reply to]
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  I set it up I LOVED it I'll use it Now maybe I can haul that #&*@$ PIG faster than my partner cleans without wearing my 125lb old ass out!


apollodorus


Feb 18, 2002, 1:12 PM
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Merlin's Magical 2-for-1 Pig Hauling Apparatus



SHEESH!

These messages make the HAULING RATCHET out to be some sort of HOLY GRAIL, lost to the ancients forever.

HERE IS MERLIN'S SECRET RECIPE:

Two jumars, two regular pulleys and 10 feet of zip cord.




1. Invert a holding jumar down low to keep the pig from getting away. It should be high enough to get the pig to the ledge. The graphic is spatially distorted for clarity (???). Use doubled slings from the belay, another anchor, or whatever works to secure it from moving.


2. Tie a 3m x 6mm rope in at a chest-high anchor. This should be kevlar, spectra, or a low stretch polyester. Regular perlon/nylon will stretch: BAD. Pass the free end ("running end", if sailing the Seas...) down through a free hanging moving pulley. Feed the free end back up through a second fixed pulley clipped in at a high anchor. Feed the free end down and attach it to your harness 'biner with a clove hitch.


3. Clip a lifting jumar to the moving pulley, invert it and attach it to the haul rope above the holding jumar.


4. Adjust the clove hitch at your waist so that when you are standing on your tippy toes, the lifting jumar almost touches the holding jumar. If you've set the upper anchor high enough, the two pulleys won't hit when you do deep knee bends.


5. Sit down, pig rises. Stand up, pig stays. Sit down, pig rises. Stand up, pig stays. And so forth.



You need to realize that the above graphic image, while highly accurate on the leftmost side, is merely representative in the remainder. The ratchet line should be vertically in line with the haul line, not off to the side. And the free end of the haul line can go through a crab up at the fixed mank anchors, etc., etc.

If you wind up being elected Beer Keg Commissioner for a Mammoth Terraces bash, you can rig this type of setup as a FOUR TO ONE using two double pulleys and a longer piece of 6mm Spectra cord.

This system is NOT a substitute for the Chongo Ratchet, but is offered here as a simple set-up in case you need to do a 2 to 1 haul (your partner passes out one pitch below the bivvy).

I am indebted to the esteemed Doctor Piton, for his generous suggestions out of the public eye regarding this posting.

[ This Message was edited by: apollodorus on 2002-02-21 21:44 ]

[ This Message was edited by: apollodorus on 2002-02-21 21:50 ]


apollodorus


Feb 18, 2002, 1:29 PM
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You can get whatever mechanical advantage you want, just keep adding pulleys. You can get a 4 to 1 using two double pulleys in a system that looks 95% like the 2 to 1 setup.

Basically, count the number of rope strands that support the pig and divide by the number of rope strands that support you. That's your mechanical advantage. This only works for pulleys and 'biners coated with teflon. If you start adding prussik knots, like the ridiculous "emergency rescue" (they're going to be rescuing YOU) systems in the above comment, it gets more complicated.

Check out my latest invention: the block and tackle. You clip the inverted lifing jumar on the block (or is it the tackle???), and clip the tackle (block???) to you anchors. You pull 600m of zip cord through it, and the pig rises 40 feet.

The old timers used to call this THE DOLT WINCH, and they used it to haul THE DOLT CART up to THE DOLT TOWER.

[ This Message was edited by: apollodorus on 2002-02-21 21:47 ]


passthepitonspete


Feb 25, 2002, 10:11 PM
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Ask Dr. Piton....about Chongo's 2:1 Hauling Ratchet [In reply to]
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Appollo writes,

Quote:The sketch I drew doesn't address several modifications to the setup that upon using this system twice, you'd see immediately. I drew the thing pretty quickly from memory, and forgot a few things.

ONE - the holding jumar anchor needs to be higher, so that the pig can be pulled up onto the ledge.

TWO - the fixed pulley anchor needs to be higher, so that the moving pulley can move about 1.5 feet and not hit it.

THREE - you have to have enough slack on the holding jumar's sling to allow you to pass a
knot

I've only done a couple of walls, and that was waaaaaaay back in the early-mid 80's. I've been pretty much on the couch since then.

Nice drawing, eh?!

Please allow me to offer a couple suggestions and/or criticisms and/or questions:

OK, with the hauling ratchet, the whole idea is to get a TIGHT fit with MINIMAL stretch.

I see a couple problems with your design in this area.

The first is that when your inverted (lifting) ascender is at the top of its stroke, there is a lot of EXTRA HAUL LINE between it and the lower holding ascender. This haul line will STRETCH under heavy load, resulting in EXTRA WORK on each stroke. If you were hauling with a dynamic rope, this would be a TON of extra work, that's for sure. Even with a static, it would probably suck.

Secondly, assuming the holding jumar does not have its own independent anchor point down low (this would be a very rare likelihood in my experience!) then it too would have to be connected to the upper anchors, and correspondingly this point of attachment would have "some" element of stretch in it as well.

So you start adding up these two stretches, and it starts adding up to extra work.

And I would NEVER want to do any extra work!

Tom's design will work, but it won't work quite as well as Chongo's design.



The fact that Tom has only climbed a couple walls, and has not done so since the early-mid 80's, and because he has answered quite a number of technical posts in this forum, definitely makes him a Big Wall Theorist!

The fact that many of his posts are very well thought out and are really pretty good makes him a damn fine engineer, because truly he is making his mostly correct observations based on theory rather than on practice.

If you want to be a good wall climber, then you need to be a good engineer, and you have to get out and practise!

Tom is already halfway there - and we all know what the other half entails, don't we?

If you would like to see a sample of Tom's engineering skills, then please click here to see his big honkin' NINE INCH CAM(!) called the Valley Giant.

I believe this is the largest cam you can buy, a full two inches bigger than the #5 Camalot, and over one and a half inches bigger than the #6 Friend.

Dr. Piton himself is achin' to get his greedy hands on a pair of those big buggers, because Dr. Piton does not climb offwidths!

Yours,

Peter R. Zabrok, P. Eng.

aka Dr. Piton

[Who somehow graduated from engineering, but isn't really that great an engineer, though I can somehow manage to work things out on walls]



P.S. Please reread the first post and have a look at Richard's superb photos I just linked in.

I will let you-all digest this for the next week and a bit while I go caving in Kentucky, and when I return, I will show you Richard's final drawing, which involves using the Yates Wall Rigger which he purchased especially for this experiment!

The results may surprise you.....

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