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Yes loose rocks and blocks have been taken down to make the route safe and secure but not done to intentionally alter the rock to make it go one grade or another.

You seems to be saying that altering the rock is o.k. if its done for safety but that's it.

"The problem here is that cleaning loose blocks alters the rock and how a climb is done just as much as gluing, comfortizing, cleaning out a crack, sculpting a hold etc."

Fuzzbait in both your posts I think you may be making a distinction without a difference.

While I completely agree with you that rock is being altered either way I believe you have erred by NOT making a distinction between cleaning of a route and the blatant manufacturing of it. This is where the actual problem lies.

You CANNOT compare cleaning for safety to taking a hammer, drill or any other tool with the intent of altering the rock so that it is more comfortable or enables climbers of lower grades to be able to complete it.

I made the distinction in my last posts because I DO feel there is a difference!

Joe

rocks are, in fact, inanimate objects, without emotions or feelings, that cannot be "hurt" in the same sense as a person or a puppy. You should all get together and start some sort of crusade against granite counter-tops, or road cuts, or something along those lines, if you are so concerned with this hurting-the-rock issue.

So when you glue/reinforce features instead of cleaning them off, doesn't that make the route easier, not harder? And isn't gluing/reinforcing blatant manufacturing, too?

And you seem to be implying that blank choss should be left alone so that better climbers can try harder sequences later. But harder sequences means smaller holds, and on bad quality rock, the smaller holds simply break off, leaving nothing. Go try it for yourself - find some choss, grab some little edges, and start yanking. It's sika and drilled pockets, or keep driving.

The simple reality is that there is nothing wrong with taking a previously unclimbed, otherwise worthless pile of rock, where nobody else ever goes or has reason to, and turning it into an outdoor gym, and this is the situation where the vast majority of route manufacturing takes place, and that there are plenty of crags to go to where nothing of the sort occurs, and if you don't like manufactured routes, don't go where they are.

Most developers of choss are grizzled veterans, not beginning/intermediate level climbers like most of the people on this thread (and site). Decades of climbing experience (hopefully) teaches [them].

Look my feeling is we need to have a strong stance Against chipping, drilling, sculpting, gluing, and/or comfortizing. However, realizing that there are situations that it may be necessary. For every rule there are always exceptions.

As you said most people on here are beginners who are here looking for advice. We need to be firm in our positions that this kind of practice is not the norm.