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jcinco
Aug 7, 2003, 5:47 PM
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The goal of this unscientific poll is to gauge the community's views on, and acceptance of, chipping.
There are three questions below. Each question poses a scenario which route developers may face. The question of whether it is acceptable to chip existing, freed, routes is not included in this poll, since it is clear that the community is unanimously opposed to such behavior.
Remember, we are not discussing cleaning routes, comfortizing holds, or glue reinforcing suspect features. We are simply considering cases where the rock presents free climbing difficulties that the route developer can not overcome.
Post your responses to the three questions with either a YES (chipping is acceptable), NO (not acceptable), or NO OPINION (i.e. ambilvilence or don't care). No justifications please... this is a poll, not a discussion.
Thanks,
-JC
QUESTIONS:
1) A route developer whose redpoint limit is 12plus/13minus spots a great line with mostly fun 5.12 climbing. However, there is one very difficult section. Though the holds are there, and the moves are obvious, the developer isn't even remotely strong enough to free this section. He thinks that if the holds in the crux section are just a slight bit bigger, he can redpoint the route at a grade near his limit. Is it acceptable for the developer to enlarge these holds so that he can complete the first ascent?
2) An 80 foot route that is almost entirely 5.10 climbing has one very-short blank section. It is not certain whether this section is climbable, but it is minimally a V11 crux. It is clear that stronger climbers will not be interested in a route with such a short crux that can't be worked on the ground as a boulder problem. If two strategically placed pockets are added with the use of a power drill to the crux section, the route can be transformed into an enjoyable 5.10. Is chipping acceptable in this case?
3) A beautiful, severly overhanging shield of completely blank stone is located in a cave. The cave is of no interest to anyone except bats and the occasional hiker. It is clear that no human could ever free-climb such a steep, featureless swath of rock. Any possible route on this wall would have to be nearly 100%, completely manufactured: chipping, drilled pockets, chisseling, etc. Since this route could never be climbed anyway, is it acceptable to chip in this case?
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fanederhand
Aug 7, 2003, 5:50 PM
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DXXX no to all of the above.
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chirp
Aug 7, 2003, 5:51 PM
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1) yes
2) yes
3) no
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brianinslc
Aug 7, 2003, 5:52 PM
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No to all three.
Brian in SLC
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bluelip
Aug 7, 2003, 5:53 PM
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Not acceptable in any of the above cases.
Mike Coles
'bluelip'
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killclimbz
Aug 7, 2003, 5:54 PM
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In reply to: 1) A route developer whose redpoint limit is 12plus/13minus spots a great line with mostly fun 5.12 climbing. However, there is one very difficult section. Though the holds are there, and the moves are obvious, the developer isn't even remotely strong enough to free this section. He thinks that if the holds in the crux section are just a slight bit bigger, he can redpoint the route at a grade near his limit. Is it acceptable for the developer to enlarge these holds so that he can complete the first ascent?
In reply to: 2) An 80 foot route that is almost entirely 5.10 climbing has one very-short blank section. It is not certain whether this section is climbable, but it is minimally a V11 crux. It is clear that stronger climbers will not be interested in a route with such a short crux that can't be worked on the ground as a boulder problem. If two strategically placed pockets are added with the use of a power drill to the crux section, the route can be transformed into an enjoyable 5.10. Is chipping acceptable in this case?
In reply to: 3) A beautiful, severly overhanging shield of completely blank stone is located in a cave. The cave is of no interest to anyone except bats and the occasional hiker. It is clear that no human could ever free-climb such a steep, featureless swath of rock. Any possible route on this wall would have to be nearly 100%, completely manufactured: chipping, drilled pockets, chisseling, etc. Since this route could never be climbed anyway, is it acceptable to chip in this case?
Stoopid, build a wall.
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xanx
Aug 7, 2003, 5:57 PM
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1)no
2)no - it sounds like a stupid route anyway
3)yes IF the "chipper" owns the rock. if it isn't clearly his and only his property, then NO.
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fanederhand
Aug 7, 2003, 5:58 PM
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And one more thing. People that want to create their own route should build one not destroy what God placed on the earth (with public land that is). I understand that piton craft can damage the rock but it is unintentional and not used that often anymore. Or if a person wants to buy a cliff and then screw with it. ... Then there is bolting for sport routes ... acceptable I guess if done within reason. Trad is where it is at. Leave no trace is the best ethic I think.
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crotch
Aug 7, 2003, 5:59 PM
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1. NO
2. NO
3. NO
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climbhigh23
Aug 7, 2003, 6:00 PM
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1 - no
2 - no
3 - no, unless it is a private rock cave, in which case the owner can do whatever he/she feels they need to.....but if they chip it, they are lame.
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killclimbz
Aug 7, 2003, 6:27 PM
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In reply to: 1 - no 2 - no 3 - no, unless it is a private rock cave, in which case the owner can do whatever he/she feels they need to.....but if they chip it, they are lame.
If the person owns the land in any of these situations they can do what they want.
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slabmaster
Aug 7, 2003, 6:32 PM
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Interesting choise of words in your survey...
1) A route developer whose redpoint limit is
2) ... It is clear that stronger climbers will not be interested in a route ...
3) ... The cave is of no interest to anyone ...
I know of a climb in Yosemite that is beyond my limit, I'm not interested in, and (as far as I know) nobody else is interested in it. So.....
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toejam
Aug 7, 2003, 6:40 PM
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No No and No
My thinking is, think about the climbers 50 years from now, when gecko-tape gloves or somesuch is standard issue. They'll be all pissed that your blank face is chipped, because it could have been their 5.17d
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dlintz
Aug 7, 2003, 6:40 PM
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1. NO
2. NO
3. NO
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billcoe_
Aug 7, 2003, 6:59 PM
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no - no - no - no - no Hope that caught them all.
NO.
How about this, a 5.6 climber chips holds so that the 5.7 he is attempting becomes do-able for him/her? (That one is right in line with your questions.)
uhhh.. NO.
Around here, the debate is, if a good hold has a sharper than hell edge, wherein you get a mandatory cut (most people most of the time), is it ok to smack it with a nut or a hex and slightly erode the sharpness of the edge?
Yes.
Now on to the Arnold for gov poll.....
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joshklingbeil
Aug 7, 2003, 7:00 PM
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No x 3 Chipping sucks .....
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joeschmoe
Aug 10, 2003, 3:16 AM
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no no and no. if you can't climb it, don't. end of question. however that doesn't mean don't try, just don't mess it up for the rest of us.
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coldclimb
Aug 10, 2003, 3:29 AM
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no.
no.
no.
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bouldrinsoill
Aug 10, 2003, 3:47 AM
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1.fu*k no
2.fu*k no
3.fu*k no
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climbingcowboy
Aug 10, 2003, 4:11 AM
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1. no
2. no
3. I wouldnt do it but dont really care if someone else does.
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oklahoma_climber
Aug 10, 2003, 4:35 AM
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no.
no.
no.
but if you own the land..... still NO.
Climb what God gave you to climb... and if that's too tough, get better.
As for the ownership scenario: just because a piece of paper says you own the land doesn't give you the right to skimp on the integrity of the sport. Corked bats; Juiced Fullbacks; Spitball pitchers; Chipping climbers. They all belong in a small, ironclad cell at the bottom of the North Atlantic.
Oh, and while you're at it... pack out your trash. I'm not your mother, and I'm tired of cleaning up your mess.
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janiszewski11
Aug 10, 2003, 4:39 AM
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no
no
no
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old_school
Aug 10, 2003, 4:42 AM
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no no and no
leave the rock be, chip and die
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rockfax
Aug 10, 2003, 4:47 AM
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In reply to: The goal of this unscientific poll is to gauge the community's views on, and acceptance of, chipping.
I've got another three questions for your pathetic poll.
Is asking these questions:
1. Pathetic
2. Absolutely Pathetic
or
3. The questioner should be burned at the stake for being superbly pathetic.
Creating holds to climb rock is pathetic period.
And I should know because I'm pathetic.
Mick
www.rockfax.com
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phugganut
Aug 10, 2003, 5:52 AM
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1)no
2)no
3)no
Also, for all future "is it ok to chip if" questions, the answer is no.
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shnobe
Aug 10, 2003, 6:11 AM
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1....NO
2....NO
3.....NO
Chipping should never be allowed or accepted...
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kalcario
Aug 10, 2003, 6:15 AM
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The definitive and realistic answer to this set of questions is: It depends on the area.
If you are talking about pristine granite in an alpine setting or a National Park, the answer is no to all 3. By rights the definition of chipping should be broad enough to include piton bashing (which some of us find even more offensive than chipping), and someday I'm sure it will, but...one step at a time.
If the cliff is a pile of choss, then anything goes, and if you don't like it then don't go there.
And if your idea of interjecting yourself into the controversy only goes as far as typing, then don't bother.
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enigma
Aug 10, 2003, 7:52 AM
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--This thread seems to be directed at someone or a few individuals in particular, is that true?? :shock:
? Maybe it shouldn't be so enigmatic. Hmmn :roll:
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peas
Aug 10, 2003, 8:06 AM
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No
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vertical_planar
Aug 10, 2003, 8:25 AM
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NO
NO
NO
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halcyon
Aug 10, 2003, 9:20 AM
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NO
NO
NO
If you have to chip the climb to climb it, climb something else.
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dingus
Aug 10, 2003, 3:11 PM
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In reply to: Post your responses to the three questions with either a YES (chipping is acceptable), NO (not acceptable), or NO OPINION (i.e. ambilvilence or don't care). No justifications please... this is a poll, not a discussion.
hehe. Once you hit the send button you no longer can control the discussion, unless you're a power hungry moderator that is...
In reply to: Is it acceptable for the developer to enlarge these holds so that he can complete the first ascent?
Is anyone watching when said developer is presented with the temptation to carve holds out of blank stone?
In reply to: 2) If two strategically placed pockets are added with the use of a power drill to the crux section, the route can be transformed into an enjoyable 5.10. Is chipping acceptable in this case?
Is the route developer a member of some minority community?
In reply to: 3)Any possible route on this wall would have to be nearly 100%, completely manufactured: chipping, drilled pockets, chisseling, etc. Since this route could never be climbed anyway, is it acceptable to chip in this case?
Is the route developer named Tony Yaniro by any chance?
Look, the opinion of faceless dweebs on the internet, me included, is rather irrelevant and certainly lacks context. The only opinion that truly matters is the person doing the chipping. You can have one hundred zealots preaching the ills of chipping negated by the chisel of one. When you present black and white scenarios you reveal nothing of consequence. It's only on the margins of people's ethics that you will find interesting controversy. So I am going to modify your poll.
1.) You have bolted a hard sandstone sport route and repeatedly tried to red point it. You can't do it. It's just too hard. Each time you get to the crux you reach up to a distant and poor hand hold and brush at it vigorously with your hardened fingertips and nails. And each time you do this grains of sand are seperated from the rock matrix and swept away. After 30 or 40 such episodes over the course of a couple of days spent hanging from the nearest bolt, working the move, gradually, the hold is enlarged and you eventually send the route. Is this blatant form of chipping acceptable to you? Will you tell the area guidebook author and everyone else who is tempted to try your climb how you modified this hold? Are you proudb of your work?
2.) You have a 5.10 climb with a 5.12+ move halfway up. You can't even talk your belayers into holding your rope anymore, so hopeless are your chances of dragging your fat arse up the route free (I have one of these by the way). Another friend, an antisocial SOB who cares next to nothing of the opinion of others, offers to fix the route at some undefined point in the future. She won't tell you what she intends to do, nor when; just that she will "take care of things." Do you consent or warn her off?
3.) You have a hairline dirtfilled crack splitting a 95 degree wall. So compelling is the line that over the years, going clear back to the 60's, notable climbers have stopped their cars and climbed the hill to have a look. In each and every case they retreated. The 80 foot line would require extensive excavation and hard iron slamming to even be aided, much less freed. Since this thing is right on the road to one of the great aid climbing meccas of the free world, people have let it go. But where others see a waste of time you see a future cutting edge free climb. Yet even you are a bit put off by the tactics you envision necessary...
you will have to first rap the thing and using the pick of an ice axe laborously dig out every shred of vegation and dirt you can. After the cleaning you know at least 30 feet of hairline crack still seperate you from your future magazine cover route. So you recruit your aid climbing friend to nail it and you ask him to nail it hard. You clean it and really work those pins in getting them out. The results of these efforts is clear... pockets emerging from the seam, every four feet. Still, at least 5 of these holds are too small to admit even the tip of your pinky. So you nail it 3 more times until the holds will admit your digits. When top roping this new line you realize there are absolutely no opportunities for really good pro anywhere on the route, so you elect to rap bolt the crack as well, rather than aid it 10 more times to produce suitable nut placements. Eventually you send this new line, proudly clipping your shiny 3/8 inch bolts up the thing as your photog friend snaps away. Do you decribe to Blight & Farce, in detail, the methods you used to create this climb? Could you look your momma in the eye and defend your actions to be in keeping with the proud traditions of the sport?
Lastly, have any of you route developers ever been tempted to carve or modify obviously solid holds in order to make a climb go? If so, did you carve? If yes, what route, where and when? And please post your real name too. If the tactics are acceptable you should have no problem providing real world proof of your actions and be willing to stand behind them. It is my guess that no chipping advocate will do this... and that is the only indictment necessary. If you can't stand up to the light of day, then it is darkness you are pursuing.
DMT
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cthcrockclimber
Aug 10, 2003, 3:27 PM
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No
No
No
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silkyerm
Aug 10, 2003, 3:35 PM
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No
No
No
If you want to chip something, chip an old concrete train tressel.
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flying_dutchman
Aug 10, 2003, 4:57 PM
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i thought we were clear with the chipping issue...
no to the above unless the rock is in your backyard.
Why not just aid the route over and over till its climbable? That seems to be acceptable on big walls.
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karma274
Aug 10, 2003, 5:57 PM
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In reply to: 1.) You have bolted a hard sandstone sport route and repeatedly tried to red point it. You can't do it. It's just too hard. Each time you get to the crux you reach up to a distant and poor hand hold and brush at it vigorously with your hardened fingertips and nails. And each time you do this grains of sand are seperated from the rock matrix and swept away. After 30 or 40 such episodes over the course of a couple of days spent hanging from the nearest bolt, working the move, gradually, the hold is enlarged and you eventually send the route. Is this blatant form of chipping acceptable to you? Will you tell the area guidebook author and everyone else who is tempted to try your climb how you modified this hold? Are you proudb of your work? DMT
While this is kind of shady business, this same thing would have happened after others had tried it many times. It's sort of like prying a scary ass loose block off before someone weights it and kills someone. if it's 90% probable that something would have come off after many attempts or if someone weighted it, my opinion is that you aren't hurting anything.
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saltamonte
Sep 26, 2005, 4:36 PM
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In reply to: Not acceptable in any of the above cases. Mike Coles 'bluelip'
In reply to: No No No If you want to chip something, chip an old concrete train tressel.
what is it with peoples percieved need to protect a Rock from being hit with a hammer especially when we are talking about some obscure rock that will otherwise never be climbed.
I fully agree that there are times when chipping is inappropriate. but to say it should never be done by anyone is about as logical as an athiest deciding to live like the amish and then trying to make the whole world convert to his lifestyle because it is what he likes. If he wants to live with out using technology fine let him do it. but he has no place telling others they shouldn't use a zipper on their pants (especially since as an athiest and has no belief that a higher power is mandating his lifestyle) So if you don't want to chip a rock to make a brand new route climbable don't do it, and if you don't want others chipping at your existing routes we are behind you. but don't act like anyone else should be equally bound to never chip a rock because of your personal preference
I love rocks but they do not feel pain and do not care if you chip them in fact over time they will be chipped by nature itself if you don't do it. IF you maintain that chipping a rock is always wrong you should stop driving on public roads gravel or paved both are made with chipped rock.
ironically this sort of behavior is the very behavior that when applied to other situations most of the users on this site detest. For example.
this is anal retentative anti chipping rc.com user "i would never chip a rock so neither should you" and we are supposed to agree with him
But when local stuck up guy at gas station sees Anal Retentive rc.com user's tattoos and purple hair.
and stuck up local guy says "I would never paint my hair purple that is ugly and distracting from the beauty of the human race so neither should you"
or
" i would never get a tattoo if it didn't get their naturally like a birthmark or accidently like scar then I won't put it on my body so neither should you."
or
"I would never cuss it is unpleasant to have no choice but to hear that profanity as I walk through the grocery store or sit at the coffee shop. so neither should you"
most of these anti-chipping activists would say who does he think he is I will do as I *@#! please.
but when it comes to hitting a rock with a hammer they can handle letting everyone make their own choices
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lofstromc
Sep 26, 2005, 4:59 PM
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To question 1: instead of making the holds bigger by chipping, make your hands smaller by chipping.
Question 2: Use some glue-up holds, those are always very aesthetically pleasing.
Question 3: I asked the bats in said cave and they all agreed. NO!
Leave the rock alone. :evil:
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overlord
Sep 26, 2005, 5:05 PM
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a)no
b)no
c)if you dont own the cave, no. its ok if you want to make yourself a nice little outdoor gym on your land.
im against deliberately altering the rock to make free moves easier/possible. if you cant climb it, open the project and let others try it.
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kyote321
Sep 26, 2005, 5:11 PM
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comfortizing is the question that should be asked. although i don't really care if rock gets chipped or not, most people do. comfortizing IS the topic that should be discussed
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jelliott
Sep 26, 2005, 5:20 PM
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Hell NO to all three and for god's sake leave the bats alone
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tgreene
Sep 26, 2005, 5:30 PM
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This is called French Aiding... AND FUCK THE FRENCH! :deadhorse:
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rockgoat
Sep 26, 2005, 5:36 PM
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No!
No!
No!
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billcoe_
Sep 26, 2005, 6:03 PM
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In reply to: no - no - no - no - no Hope that caught them all. NO. .................. Now on to the Arnold for gov poll.....
Still No No No and No with an extra no in there for good measure. If you own it, thats another subject.
Nice thread revival saltamonte. Still No.
How about that Arnold now? He got elected. Can we have another poll on his re-election?
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scotchie
Sep 26, 2005, 7:09 PM
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NO, NO, and NO !!!!
If you own the land then it's your legal right, BUT IT'S STILL LAME !!!
That said, I wouldn't refuse to climb a route just because someone chipped it. Once the damage is done, and it's too late to recover, then I might as well enjoy what's left of the climb. But it's not like climbing a real 5.whatever.
Oh yeah, and I vote "The questioner should be burned at the stake for being superbly pathetic". :D
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moose_droppings
Sep 26, 2005, 7:25 PM
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1st 3 original questions:
1. no
2. no
3. no
Modified questions:
1. A. no
B. yes
C. no
2. warn her
3. A. yes
B. no
Lastly. no fucking way
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quietmonk
Sep 26, 2005, 8:08 PM
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Not every rock needs to get climbed
1) too selfish/stupid to chip down
2) depends. I would drill the shit out of it
3) Setting plastic climbs would be a better option (as in most cases of manufacturing) In a choss-filled cave I would approve of this, but never waste my time doing it.
I have actually climbed in a "secret" choss cave at Smith where all of the routes are based off of holds that are blatantly drilled, glued or bolted on. Some of ther routes even used commercial plastic holds.
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fluxus
Sep 26, 2005, 8:42 PM
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Its great to say that chippinng should not be done. But do you all realize how many of the routes you climb are chipped? How many classics routes out there are man made wonders? What do you do when you discover that the most famous route in your area has a number of chipped holds on it?
American fork Ut, Maple canyon Ut, Mt Charleston NV, Clark Mnt. Ca, Mount Williamson Ca, Stoney Point Ca, Kingston Quarry NY, Hemlock Ledges (gunks) ny, Red Rock NV, Riverside Quarry CA, Logan Ut. Wild Iris Wy, Sinks Canyon Wy, Echo Ca, almost any old trad crack route, and just about every limestone crag between Vegas and SLC among others all have routes created by chipping, gluing, "selective cleaning" etc.
Chipping in all its different manifestations has played a significant role in American climbing for a long time, This does not make it right, but I imagine that many people who posted an indignant "no!" to the pole question have on more than one ocassion used chipped holds and enjoyed the experience without knowing that the holds were chipped.
I don't think that chipping should be accepted but at the same time there are a few rare individual out there who have chipped great routes. Unfortunately there are far more people who have ruined what other wise would have been good routes with their chipping.
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fenderfour
Sep 26, 2005, 8:48 PM
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Not everything has to be climbed. Learn to accept defeat
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skinkididoo
Sep 26, 2005, 10:18 PM
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No to all three original questions
If you can't climb something, try something easier. If you want to make a route where there obviously isn't one, be a routesetter in a gym. There are so many awesome places to climb that it really seems silly for people to go out and chip something to make it a climb. Its not like that aesthetically perfect yet holdless arete is the only aesthetically beautiful arete in the world... have a sense of adventure and go somewhere else...
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kyote321
Sep 26, 2005, 10:25 PM
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dude, get off the french. have you been to france? or are you a victim of pro-america, 'freedom fries' propaganda? i have a lot of respect for the french for standing up to the tyrannical US under bush. they have a self-sustaining , progressive culture that values food, culture, and qulait over over-consumption and greed.
for our sport, they were instrumental in moving it out of the dark ages of the 60s-80s. say what you want, but no one is climbing 15a on gear, and many are able to enjoy the sport safely because of their hang-dogging and rap-bolting. if you want to involve yourself in an ethical debate, how about why is our federal land being sold out to oil and timber interests?
yes, many routes in the west have the odd hold manufacured to keep with the vibe of the climb. many more have had holds improves OR made less good to keep the climb at a consistent grade. they happen to be some of the best, and most repeated, climbs. props to the route setters.
you can get on your high horse all you wnat, but unless you solely climb trad, you are climbing a route that someone has manipulated in some way, and thus are encouraging the activity.
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kyote321
Sep 26, 2005, 10:54 PM
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yeah, good point. i haven't been tradding in a major area for a while, so i forget this.
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mcgivney_nh
Sep 26, 2005, 10:56 PM
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1 NO
2 YES
3 NO OPINION
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moose_droppings
Sep 26, 2005, 10:56 PM
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In reply to: This does not make it right, but I imagine that many people who posted an indignant "no!" to the pole question have on more than one ocassion used chipped holds and enjoyed the experience without knowing that the holds were chipped.
Using one and making one are two totaly different things
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fluxus
Sep 26, 2005, 11:00 PM
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In reply to: http://www.smithsonianmag.si.edu/...6/images/hanging.jpg It was chipped. Of course it looks pretty sweet and id love to climb it (assuming ill ever be able to) but due to the bolt ban at the gunks nut placements were chipped. The seam leading out the roof was also enlarged slightly in some places. This is not an extreme example either. Piton scars dot many climbs and in some places provide nice hand holds or pro options that otherwise wouldnt exist.
great point, the fact that people started to chip nut placements on trad routes in the 1980's (maybe even earlier) is one of those often overlooked facts, that also happened at Smith. and a few other areas.
considering the direction the thread is going I can't help but mention that the name of the route above is "the French Connection" :-)
Personally I would love to say that they French are better at chipping then we are but then I just remembered getting on" Hello la Terre" in the Verdon. The first hold was a square chunk just glued onto the wall. So it gets a D- for aesthetics but an A- for route quality.
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climber15
Sep 26, 2005, 11:16 PM
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I think that before anybody starts saying that chipping is absolutly not acceptable, you must first consider that many classic climbes throughout the world have minor or sometimes even major "modifications" that many people dont even know about. If you have ever climbed in Rifle, Shelf, Boulder Canyon, Elevenmile Canyon, Smith Rocks, Mt. Charlston, Mt. Potasi, or any "classic" trad climb that was once and aid route, chances are you have climbed on a chipped route without even knowing it. While i dont support modification to take a climb that has asthetic value and drilling it down (how many beautiful cracks in the garden of the gods were beaten into submission by pin scars, and now have become hidiously ugly?), but i do support a few enhanced holds during blank sections to make a classic climb. New routing is like art, if you make sure the chipped holds are completly hidden and contribute to the flow, then enhance them. I will almost gaurantee that no one will be able to tell the difference.
Had it not been for the french ethics (sport climbing, rap bolting, ect.) i gaurantee we would not have nealry as many people climbing and ENJOYING the sport as we do now.
Mabe we should quite complaining and just climb. eh?
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mcfoley
Sep 26, 2005, 11:17 PM
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NO, NO, NO...
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kyote321
Sep 26, 2005, 11:49 PM
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'Using one and making one are two totaly different things '
why?
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stabla
Sep 26, 2005, 11:54 PM
Post #63 of 323
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Chipping is NEVER acceptable
NEVER!
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petsfed
Sep 27, 2005, 12:43 AM
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1) No
2) Yes
3) No answer
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healyje
Sep 27, 2005, 12:45 AM
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In reply to: Had it not been for the french ethics (sport climbing, rap bolting, ect.) i gaurantee we would not have nealry as many people climbing and ENJOYING the sport as we do now.
Normally I don't going in for transatlantic trashfests but this is a perfect reason to diss the French as far as I'm concerned. It's not as if we weren't thoroughly enjoying climbing before the suburban hordes were marketed it as the latest hip thing in pop culture.
[Damn you David Lee Roth... :wink: ]
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kyote321
Sep 27, 2005, 12:52 AM
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you might be a redneck if...
you trash cultures you know nothing about.
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tgreene
Sep 27, 2005, 1:00 AM
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RIFLE FOR SALE: never fired, dropped once! :tinfoilhat:
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samroberts
Sep 27, 2005, 1:10 AM
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1) A route developer whose redpoint limit is 12plus/13minus spots a
no
2) An 80 foot route that is almost entirely 5.10 climbing has one very-short blank section. It is not certain whether this section is climbable
no
3) A beautiful, severly overhanging shield of completely blank stone is located in a cave. The cave is of no interest to anyone except bats and
no fucking way, leave it to the bats and the hikers, drill your gym
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tgreene
Sep 27, 2005, 1:14 AM
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To Whom It May Concern: It's actually illegal as hell to desecrate a natural cave!
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shazinky
Sep 27, 2005, 1:38 AM
Post #82 of 323
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DUMP
DUMP
SMASH
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potreroed
Sep 27, 2005, 2:01 AM
Post #83 of 323
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NAY, NAY AND NAY.
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t-dog
Deleted
Sep 27, 2005, 2:34 AM
Post #84 of 323
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In reply to: you might be a redneck if... you trash cultures you know nothing about.
hahah, that describes tgreene so well!!!
btw, greenie, did a bunch of lycra-wearing french sport climbers steal your lunch money when you were a kid or something? Get a freakin' clue.
But thanks for keeping the American fvcktard stereotype alive and well!!
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gunked
Sep 27, 2005, 2:44 AM
Post #85 of 323
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NO
NO
NO
-Jason
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tgreene
Sep 27, 2005, 1:21 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: you might be a redneck if... you trash cultures you know nothing about. hahah, that describes tgreene so well!!! btw, greenie, did a bunch of lycra-wearing french sport climbers steal your lunch money when you were a kid or something? Get a freakin' clue. But thanks for keeping the American fvcktard stereotype alive and well!! |
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kyote321
Sep 27, 2005, 2:52 PM
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you know, if the confederate flag fits...
but, really, i do appreciate anyone who can be so blatantly un PC in a PC world.
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killclimbz
Sep 27, 2005, 2:56 PM
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Way to revive a thread from 2003. :deadhorse:
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getsomeethics
Sep 27, 2005, 3:16 PM
Post #89 of 323
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1. no
2. no
3. no
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billcoe_
Sep 27, 2005, 3:26 PM
Post #90 of 323
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In reply to: I find it to be rather humerous that you guys slam me for stereotyping, with the ever typical and much overplayed "redneck" stereotype that you're so quick to paint me with......... :mrgreen:
No way Tgreene, I was laughing my ass off too hard over here. I've been to France couple times last couple of years, they are fine folks. Obviously those who are giving you crap have their funny switch turned off.
OMG! That stuff is soooooooo funny! :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: That "POSER celebrating a redpoint" pic sent me right over the edge.
:lol: :lol:
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obe
Sep 27, 2005, 4:16 PM
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MY TURN!...
1. NO
2. NO
3. NO
......NEXT :arrow:
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brad84
Sep 27, 2005, 4:25 PM
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no
no
no
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jh_angel
Sep 27, 2005, 4:43 PM
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no, no and no.
why do you think there are artificial walls?
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tgreene
Sep 28, 2005, 2:09 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: I find it to be rather humerous that you guys slam me for stereotyping, with the ever typical and much overplayed "redneck" stereotype that you're so quick to paint me with......... :mrgreen: No way Tgreene, I was laughing my ass off too hard over here. I've been to France couple times last couple of years, they are fine folks. Obviously those who are giving you crap have their funny switch turned off. OMG! That stuff is soooooooo funny! :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: That "POSER celebrating a redpoint" pic sent me right over the edge. :lol: :lol: |
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memory_hole
Sep 28, 2005, 2:21 AM
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In reply to: See, it's called HUMOR! 8^) |
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tgreene
Sep 28, 2005, 2:26 AM
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What day job..? :mrgreen:
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retrock
Sep 28, 2005, 3:08 AM
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NO
NO
NO
God it's like I'm yelling at my kids.
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kyote321
Sep 28, 2005, 5:37 AM
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making fun of others funny long time (insert pithy emotocon here). we learn this on playground. declarative sentences are fun.
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dood
Sep 28, 2005, 6:16 AM
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When is roughster going to chime in here?
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worldsworstclimber
Oct 3, 2005, 7:45 PM
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No to all 3. Chipping is irresponsible. Great route developers everywhere would be ashamed. Bolted routes are fun and convenient, but route developers must be very careful, they could violate the trust of other climbers, other recreational land users and the trust of land owners. Traditional lead climbing is right on with the leave no trace ethic that will be essential to preserving climbing access in the US.
Dinosaurs forever !!!
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stryker
Oct 3, 2005, 8:56 PM
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No - get stronger
No - get stronger
No - get a life and climb a real rock
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kyote321
Oct 3, 2005, 9:01 PM
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'Traditional lead climbing is right on with the leave no trace ethic that will be essential to preserving climbing access in the US. '
you've got to be joking. trad climbers leave lots of stuff: slings, gear, pin scars, skin, blood, trails. they are at least as much of an impact as sport climb'n.
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rmcclmbr
Oct 3, 2005, 9:04 PM
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1. NO
2. NO. Even though I can see someones point with this option, I think the rock should be kept in it's natural state. There are plenty of other routes you can climb.
3. NO
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xtrmecat
Oct 3, 2005, 10:51 PM
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No, No, and finally No! What are you thinking?
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shanz
Oct 3, 2005, 11:14 PM
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No
No
No
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korntera
Oct 3, 2005, 11:26 PM
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#1 no
#2 make a bolt ladder, not holds or make the route stop before the blank section. I have been on 30 foot routes on a 100 foot wall because of a blank section.
#3 If you own the property go ahead, any other reason, hell no!
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roughster
Oct 3, 2005, 11:47 PM
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In reply to: When is roughster going to chime in here?
You want to know what I think about this?
B~I = f [w1] with the heaviest influence and weighting set on SN. (SN = Subjective Norm)
Visually speaking:
http://www.ciadvertising.org/...ioner/belding/af.gif
Climbers as a whole are much too concerned about 12-3 o'clock positons in my opinion. So much so that you could apply a pre-teen / teenage Peer Pressure model to the climbing community to more accurately predict the "typical" response from the majority of climbers.
In layman's terms? Climbers are more concerned about fiting in with other climbers rather than be willing to understand and come up with their own stance. The SN or subjective norm (you can also think of it as social norm) is not just a factor, it is in fact a filter for original thought since you will self sensor your own ideas based upon the input from the right quadrant of the diagram.
The irony of all this is climbers have a tradition of being social outcasts who think outside of the day to day social norms, but now we have built our own social model that exactly parallels mainstream society and more specifically pre-teen / teen Peer Pressure models. :lol:
As for chipping? Don't care. I am paddling these days more than climbing. Who would have guessed that a shoulder injury could be a blessing in disguise!
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1080climber
Oct 4, 2005, 12:12 AM
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Once upon a time in a land far far away......
there was a climb that one young man thought could not be done, it was hard and also in a chossy crap crag where use of glue to keep holds on was everywhere. So was the case with this climb, but he made holds out of glue, no chipping, but creating. Of course people were angry and sad but as time went on they came to love this climb as it was a classic.
But then one summer while everybody was gone climbing in better places two well known climbers smashed every fake manufactured hold off the route, and then climbed it to prove it could be done. But they made everybody mad again, by doing what they thought was right and good they destroyed a classic.
Is this as bad as chipping?
Where they right or wrong? and did they have the right to decide?
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chalkfree
Oct 4, 2005, 12:24 AM
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In answer to the questions
NO
NO
NO
Someone will get up it someday, be it on aid with suction cups, whatever. Leave it be till then.
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fluxus
Oct 4, 2005, 2:02 AM
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thank you roughster if I had a trophy to give it would be yours.
I think the poll does serve a purpose, it shows that most of the respondents have a limited understanding of what is going on at their crags and limited context in which to understand the questions.
Here are other questions for you:
1) is "cleaning" hundreds of LBS of loose rock off a first ascent chipping? Consider that the person doing the cleaning must decide when they have "cleaned" enough, in other words what will stay as holds.
2) is cleaning one chunk of loose rock and glueing another one, right next to it, acceptable?
3) is comfortizing holds chipping?
4) When old school trad climbers use pitons on a crack, and then later the crack is climbed free using the pin scars, is that chipping?
5) if climber 'A' manufactures a route or two on a totally blank and featurless abandon quarry in upstate NY, and on another day climbing at a natural area in PA, comes across a natural route with a chipped hold and proceeds to easily do the routes without the chipped hold and is critical of the chipper who chipped a natural route for no reason at all beyond their lack of vision. How evil is climber 'A'?
6) A climber at Red Rocks wishes the grades there were not so soft. After a winter rainstorm he goes and gets on a few routes in the gallery before they dry off and accidently breaks off a few rain softened crimpers, is that chipping?
7) a climber who wants his new rad project to be super hard fills in a number of pockets with glue, so they can't be used. Is that chipping?
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billcoe_
Oct 4, 2005, 3:02 PM
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In reply to: thank you roughster if I had a trophy to give it would be yours. I think the poll does serve a purpose, it shows that most of the respondents have a limited understanding of what is going on at their crags and limited context in which to understand the questions. Here are other questions for you: 1) is "cleaning" hundreds of LBS of loose rock off a first ascent chipping? Consider that the person doing the cleaning must decide when they have "cleaned" enough, in other words what will stay as holds. 2) is cleaning one chunk of loose rock and glueing another one, right next to it, acceptable? 3) is comfortizing holds chipping? 4) When old school trad climbers use pitons on a crack, and then later the crack is climbed free using the pin scars, is that chipping? 5) if climber 'A' manufactures a route or two on a totally blank and featurless abandon quarry in upstate NY, and on another day climbing at a natural area in PA, comes across a natural route with a chipped hold and proceeds to easily do the routes without the chipped hold and is critical of the chipper who chipped a natural route for no reason at all beyond their lack of vision. How evil is climber 'A'? 6) A climber at Red Rocks wishes the grades there were not so soft. After a winter rainstorm he goes and gets on a few routes in the gallery before they dry off and accidently breaks off a few rain softened crimpers, is that chipping? 7) a climber who wants his new rad project to be super hard fills in a number of pockets with glue, so they can't be used. Is that chipping?
Too many questions.
Use your judgement. I'm sure Jeffery Dahmaer had some real positive things about him too, but would ya let him babysit your kids?
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silkyerm
Oct 4, 2005, 3:14 PM
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NO :evil:
NO :evil:
NO :evil:
NO :evil:
NO :evil:
NO :evil:
NO :evil:
NO :evil:
NO :evil:
NO :evil:
NO :evil:
NO :evil:
NO :evil:
:!: :!: :!: :!: :!:
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jt512
Oct 4, 2005, 3:56 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: When is roughster going to chime in here? You want to know what I think about this? B~I = f [w1] with the heaviest influence and weighting set on SN. (SN = Subjective Norm) Visually speaking: http://www.ciadvertising.org/...ioner/belding/af.gif Climbers as a whole are much too concerned about 12-3 o'clock positons in my opinion. So much so that you could apply a pre-teen / teenage Peer Pressure model to the climbing community to more accurately predict the "typical" response from the majority of climbers. In layman's terms? Climbers are more concerned about fiting in with other climbers rather than be willing to understand and come up with their own stance. The SN or subjective norm (you can also think of it as social norm) is not just a factor, it is in fact a filter for original thought since you will self sensor your own ideas based upon the input from the right quadrant of the diagram. The irony of all this is climbers have a tradition of being social outcasts who think outside of the day to day social norms, but now we have built our own social model that exactly parallels mainstream society and more specifically pre-teen / teen Peer Pressure models. :lol: As for chipping? Don't care. I am paddling these days more than climbing. Who would have guessed that a shoulder injury could be a blessing in disguise!
Trophy, minus one style point for the phrase "visually speaking."
-Jay
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dingus
Oct 4, 2005, 4:01 PM
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In reply to: 1) is "cleaning" hundreds of LBS of loose rock off a first ascent chipping? Consider that the person doing the cleaning must decide when they have "cleaned" enough, in other words what will stay as holds.
Sometimes yes, sometimes no. Depends upon what is being cleaned and how. A lot of aggressive rock manipulation has gone down under the guise of 'cleaning.'
In reply to: 2) is cleaning one chunk of loose rock and glueing another one, right next to it, acceptable?
Acceptable to whom? To me? It depends.
In reply to: 3) is comfortizing holds chipping?
Of course its chipping! Its just viewed as necessary chipping where it happens frequently, like on limestone. No hold modification, no climb, or so I've been told. That's chipping, 101.
In reply to: 4) When old school trad climbers use pitons on a crack, and then later the crack is climbed free using the pin scars, is that chipping?
Yes, and its chipping when new school climbers do it too.
In reply to: 5) How evil is climber 'A'?
As evil as she wants to be?
In reply to: 6) accidently breaks off a few rain softened crimpers, is that chipping?
Not really.
In reply to: 7) a climber who wants his new rad project to be super hard fills in a number of pockets with glue, so they can't be used. Is that chipping?
That person needs to be bitch slapped. Hard.
DMT
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jt512
Oct 4, 2005, 4:11 PM
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As usual, It Depends, but forced between answering "yes" or "no," here goes:
1. Marginally "No" because of the italicized phrase in the question, "Is it acceptable for the developer to enlarge these holds so that he can complete the first ascent? Had the phrase instead been to produce a sustained 5.12 route I would have been more inclined to vote "Yes."
2. Yes
3. Yes
Most of you guys need to wake up and smell the epoxy.
-Jay
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fluxus
Oct 4, 2005, 8:21 PM
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In reply to: Most of you guys need to wake up and smell the epoxy.
Exactly.
I don't know how many other people contributing to this thread have bolted, cleaned, put up routes, but I've done it in the Gunks, At Lion's Head, at the NRG, at AF, and at Maple among others. In an area such as Maple, over 90% of the routes are manufactured. Its rare to come across a drilled pocket or something like that but the person putting up the route has to make descisions about what stays and what goes. At a place like Maple cleaning off the loose rock does not reveal solid rock, it reveals more loose rock or slightly less chossy rock. At some point the person cleaning the route makes very specific decisions about what the holds will be and how hard the route will be. This is also the case for routes in many SoCal climbing areas such as NJC, some part of Williamson, and all of Echo.
So, for all of you who are dead set against chipping, are you either: 1)choosing to ignore all the manipulation that goes into cleaning a route, in which the cleaner decides what the route will be or
2) do you think that an internationally renound area such as the box canyon should not have been developed? or
3) are you dishonest enough to say that cleaning and chipping are not the same thing?
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jt512
Oct 4, 2005, 8:33 PM
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In reply to: Its rare to come across a drilled pocket or something like that but the person putting up the route has to make descisions about what stays and what goes. At a place like Maple cleaning off the loose rock does not reveal solid rock, it reveals more loose rock or slightly less chossy rock. At some point the person cleaning the route makes very specific decisions about what the holds will be and how hard the route will be.
This is the most clearly I have ever seen this stated.
-Jay
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mbg
Oct 4, 2005, 9:37 PM
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These threads always boil down to a debate on the murky line that separates chipping from cleaning and/or making a route safe.
People relatively new to the game show their ignorance on route development and veterans often show their indifferent attitude towards huffing fumes in the great outdoors and unwarranted enhancement.
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jbak
Oct 4, 2005, 10:30 PM
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In reply to: I don't know how many other people contributing to this thread have bolted, cleaned, put up routes, At a place like Maple cleaning off the loose rock does not reveal solid rock, it reveals more loose rock or slightly less chossy rock. At some point the person cleaning the route makes very specific decisions about what the holds will be and how hard the route will be.
Totally agree. I think people who have never done FAs imagine that overhanging routes in chossy areas somehow spring into being perfectly clean and ready to go. They have no idea how much cleaning and how much thought goes into developing such routes. Decisions ARE made.
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hasbeen
Oct 10, 2005, 9:50 PM
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In reply to: Totally agree. I think people who have never done FAs imagine that overhanging routes in chossy areas somehow spring into being perfectly clean and ready to go. They have no idea how much cleaning and how much thought goes into developing such routes. Decisions ARE made.
having established hundred's of routes in various styles in various countries with various climbers of varying notoriety, most of you folks have absolutely no idea about what goes on during an FA. aid, trad, sport, whatever. i could tell you stories, some which would completely destroy that mag-induced ivory clean image of your heroes that you currently hold.
what i've never understood was why it's spun that way it is. i mean, i get it when we're talking to lay folks, especially land use managment who probably don't understand the sport. but when we artificially create this rift within our community that often leads to access problems (like in josh) when most of the people doing all the squawking have no clue as to the process they're discussing there can't be any upside.
so i'll leave you with a funny story, instead of fueling the fire over which famous persons should be slandered.
there was this guy who used to occasionally climb with our group. he wasn't too talented, which we don't care at all about. but to cover his ineptetude, he would carry around an old interview of a well known climber and use the "pure" ethics of the piece as why he had to back off every lead, never try a hard move or do anything remotely scary. it was pretty funny because he was even misinterpreting the article as an excuse to never push himself under a "real climbers don't fall" sort of image. he was so taking by this philosophy that he used to carry the piece around with him, flashing it regularly to people trying to help him climb better.
but a bomb was dropped on him when an editor of that mag joined our group, explaining to him that that article's author slanted the piece so much that the subject refused further interviews from the mag and that his hero didn't agree with that approach to climbing at all. the really weird thing was that instead of being crushed, he continued to carry the piece around with him and espouse this--now false--philosophy.
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billcoe_
Oct 10, 2005, 11:58 PM
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In reply to: 2) An 80 foot route that is almost entirely 5.10 climbing has one very-short blank section. It is not certain whether this section is climbable, but it is minimally a V11 crux. It is clear that stronger climbers will not be interested in a route with such a short crux that can't be worked on the ground as a boulder problem. If two strategically placed pockets are added with the use of a power drill to the crux section, the route can be transformed into an enjoyable 5.10. Is chipping acceptable in this case?
So JT, I'm not usre I understand: according to you, since the above is OK (your second Yes), then we can surmise that if the route is 5.5, but the route has a short 5.7 section, it's ok to hammer, power drill and chip to make the whole route 5.5?
Hmmmmmmmmmmm
Bill
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jt512
Oct 11, 2005, 12:42 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: 2) An 80 foot route that is almost entirely 5.10 climbing has one very-short blank section. It is not certain whether this section is climbable, but it is minimally a V11 crux. It is clear that stronger climbers will not be interested in a route with such a short crux that can't be worked on the ground as a boulder problem. If two strategically placed pockets are added with the use of a power drill to the crux section, the route can be transformed into an enjoyable 5.10. Is chipping acceptable in this case? So JT, I'm not usre I understand: according to you, since the above is OK (your second Yes), then we can surmise that if the route is 5.5, but the route has a short 5.7 section, it's ok to hammer, power drill and chip to make the whole route 5.5? Hmmmmmmmmmmm Bill
I don't know whether it would be eithical or not. It would certainly be pointless. Your analogy is invalid.
-Jay
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billcoe_
Oct 11, 2005, 4:03 AM
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In reply to: As usual, It Depends, but forced between answering "yes" or "no," here goes: 1. Marginally "No" because of the italicized phrase in the question, "Is it acceptable for the developer to enlarge these holds so that he can complete the first ascent? Had the phrase instead been to produce a sustained 5.12 route I would have been more inclined to vote "Yes." 2. Yes 3. Yes Most of you guys need to wake up and smell the epoxy. -Jay
According to the OP: In reply to: Remember, we are not discussing cleaning routes, comforting holds, or glue reinforcing suspect features. We are simply considering cases where the rock presents free climbing difficulties that the route developer can not overcome. ................. 2) An 80 foot route that is almost entirely 5.10 climbing has one very-short blank section. It is not certain whether this section is climbable, but it is minimally a V11 crux. It is clear that stronger climbers will not be interested in a route with such a short crux that can't be worked on the ground as a boulder problem. If two strategically placed pockets are added with the use of a power drill to the crux section, the route can be transformed into an enjoyable 5.10. Is chipping acceptable in this case?
Hmmm: it's a yes if the route is being chipped down to a 5.10 according to you? But a 5.5 leader chipping it down from a 5.7 is an invalid analogy? I don't think so, apples to apples JT. It could read thusly - picture this, same paragraph with the ratings changed:
2) An 80 foot route that is almost entirely 5.5 climbing has one very-short harder section. It is not certain whether this section is climbable by our aspiring 5.5 leader, but it is minimally a V1 crux. It is clear that stronger climbers will not be interested in this pussy chipped up route anyway. If two strategically placed pockets are added with the use of a power drill to the crux section, the route can be transformed into an enjoyable 5.5. Is chipping acceptable in this case?
Looks the same to me, and that you are saying it's fine to chip as long s the route is harder, like 5.10, but not 5.7. Just clarifying.
Bill
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fracture
Oct 11, 2005, 3:02 PM
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In reply to: But a 5.5 leader chipping it down from a 5.7 is an invalid analogy? I don't think so, apples to apples JT. It could read thusly - picture this, same paragraph with the ratings changed:
The difference between V11 and 5.10 is infinitely greater than the difference between 5.7 and 5.5. Not to mention that basically everyone can do a 5.7 move.
Certainly not "apples to apples". But nice attempt to confuse the issue.
In reply to: ... but it is minimally a V1 crux.
Do you really think V1 is 5.7? Have you ever climbed a V1?
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billcoe_
Oct 11, 2005, 4:23 PM
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In reply to: The difference between V11 and 5.10 is infinitely greater than the difference between 5.7 and 5.5. Not to mention that basically everyone can do a 5.7 move.
Certainly not "apples to apples". But nice attempt to confuse the issue.
In reply to: Do you really think V1 is 5.7? Have you ever climbed a V1?
Yup.
So then you are saying that it's OK to drill extra pockets for 5.10, but not 5.7 because more people can do 5.7 than 5.10 and/or that the spread between 5.5 and 5.7 is a lot less than V11-5.10?
So fracture - my example should have entailed what? It's an 11A but our climber wants to make the route 5.9 so the holes get drilled? Or perhaps the rest of the route is 5.2, but there is a short section of wicked 5.10 which our aspiring leader knows he cannot do on his best day, so is it then OK for him (since for JT and yourself it seems plenty OK to drill to reduce it from V11 to 5.10) to drill huge pockets to make it a full 80' pitch of 5.2 so that he can do it.
??
Bill
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fluxus
Oct 11, 2005, 4:50 PM
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In reply to: So then you are saying that it's OK to drill extra pockets for 5.10, but not 5.7 because more people can do 5.7 than 5.10
The example under discussion is rather strange for two reasons: 1) I've never seen anyone who was a "5.5 climber" (if there is such a thing) going for a first ascent. and 2) I've never met anyone who couldn't climb 5.7 moves on their first day of climbing.
If you want to introduce the idea that climbers who are ok with chipping are biased toward harder grades you may have a point but this is a poor way of getting there.
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jt512
Oct 11, 2005, 5:03 PM
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In reply to: So then you are saying that it's OK to drill extra pockets for 5.10, but not 5.7 because more people can do 5.7 than 5.10 and/or that the spread between 5.5 and 5.7 is a lot less than V11-5.10?
Fracture spelled out precisely what I hoped you would figure out for yourself: In reply to: The difference between V11 and 5.10 is infinitely greater than the difference between 5.7 and 5.5. Not to mention that basically everyone can do a 5.7 move.
Basically, anyone who can climb 5.5 can climb 5.7, so it is pointless to alter a 5.7 route to make it "consistent 5.5" (whatever that means).
On the other hand, the distance between 5.10 and V11 is enormous. I'd estimate that 50% of active climbers can climb 5.10 sport, whereas V11 is the gateway to the elite class. Something on the order of 1 in 1000 climbers could climb a V11 crux on an otherwise 5.10 route. But that wasn't really the OP's point, because a 5.10 route with V11 crux would not be of interest to anyone: it's too hard for the 5.10 climber, and it's not sustained enough for the 5.14 climber; it's just lame. On the other hand, if you the chip the crux down to 5.10, then, according to the hypothetical presented, you'd have a stellar, continuous 5.10 route.
But the real question is why are you arguing against this practice after several prolific first ascentionists have informed you that it is almost always done? Get it? Several FAists have explained that the vast majority of worthwhile routes have been altererd. It's the rule, not the exception. The ethic that you champion is almost entirely theoretical. Few prominent first ascentionists, in spite of what they may have espoused publicly, have consistently followed it themselves. Chipping, cleaning, gluing are routine practices today, just as they have been for decades. And for good reason: most rock just doesn't make for good routes in its natural state.
-Jay
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benpullin
Oct 11, 2005, 5:04 PM
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In reply to: most of you folks have absolutely no idea about what goes on during an FA. aid, trad, sport, whatever..
Would you expect anthing else from a rc.com thread?
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billcoe_
Oct 11, 2005, 7:15 PM
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In reply to: Remember, we are not discussing cleaning routes, comforting holds, or glue reinforcing suspect features. We are simply considering cases where the rock presents free climbing difficulties that the route developer can not overcome.
The above is the OP's preface to the questions.
The question was #2, noted and also quoted above.
Your surprising answer was yes it is ok to drill to make the route easier. Given that 5.5 is a a poor and an exaggerated example, at what level then to you feel the cut off is. As in, sure its fine to drill pockets just to make a route easier (which is what you are both saying).
At what grade is the cut off for you? We have clarified that 5.5 is too low. You feel that is inappropriate. But that a V11 with multile pockets drilled so that it is a 5.10 is fine.
How about a 5.11 being drilled to be a 5.9? Or where is that number?
And btw: you are wrong with the comments that this kind of thing is common. It is not.
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fluxus
Oct 11, 2005, 7:23 PM
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In reply to: The ethic that you champion is almost entirely theoretical.
exactly, and isn't that the point of this entire thread that climbers not involved in first ascents appear to believe in a mythologized version of what a first ascent should be, a myth that is far removed from the reality of putting up climbs?
Its funny because this is the case in so many ways in climbing, the recreational climbers believe in a completely synthetic version of climbing history and ethics.
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jbak
Oct 11, 2005, 7:24 PM
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In reply to: But the real question is why are you arguing against this practice after several prolific first ascentionists have informed you that it is almost always done? Get it? Several FAists have explained that the vast majority of worthwhile routes have been altererd. It's the rule, not the exception. The ethic that you champion is almost entirely theoretical. Few prominent first ascentionists, in spite of what they may have espoused publicly, have consistently followed it themselves. Chipping, cleaning, gluing are routine practices today, just as they have been for decades. And for good reason: most rock just doesn't make for good routes in its natural state. -Jay
Jay, I basically agree with you, but the tone of your post seems a bit more laizze-faire than I would have written. There are so many beginners on this site that I would urge them to do a LOT of thinking and gain a lot of experience before they go out and just start whacking away.
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dingus
Oct 11, 2005, 7:29 PM
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In reply to: Its funny because this is the case in so many ways in climbing, the recreational climbers believe in a completely synthetic version of climbing history and ethics.
Completely synthetic? The whole history of climbing?
How about some examples?
DMT
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jt512
Oct 11, 2005, 7:32 PM
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In reply to: There are so many beginners on this site that I would urge them to do a LOT of thinking and gain a lot of experience before they go out and just start whacking away.
Beginners shouldn't be putting up routes at all. Show me a crag where anyone other than the few most experienced climbers have put up routes and I'll show you a crag with some pretty awful routes.
-Jay
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jbak
Oct 11, 2005, 7:40 PM
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In reply to: How about a 5.11 being drilled to be a 5.9? Or where is that number? And btw: you are wrong with the comments that this kind of thing is common. It is not.
If somebody chips a single hold to move a one-move-wonder down four number grades to make it a more consistent, good route, I'm not going to complain. Or three. Or even two. Less than that, I would argue that one-move-wonders DO have some value (sampling the next grade) and I really don't want to *encourage* wholesale chipping anyway. And I agree that non-gray-area alteration is not really that common.
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jbak
Oct 11, 2005, 7:43 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: There are so many beginners on this site that I would urge them to do a LOT of thinking and gain a lot of experience before they go out and just start whacking away. Beginners shouldn't be putting up routes at all. Show me a crag where anyone other than the few most experienced climbers have put up routes and I'll show you a crag with some pretty awful routes. -Jay
For sure. There are so many new climbers these days that I can't predict what they might do. Hence the note of caution.
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crshbrn84
Oct 11, 2005, 7:53 PM
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1. NO
2. NO - dont chip just put anchors below the v11 crux
3. NO
this thread is pretty pointless
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arrow
Oct 11, 2005, 8:12 PM
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jt512 wrote:
In reply to: most rock just doesn't make for good routes in its natural state
I have to call bullshit on this statement jt
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caughtinside
Oct 11, 2005, 8:32 PM
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In reply to: this thread is pretty pointless
Actually it's pretty amusing. Even after numerous climbers with development experience attempt to explain what goes in to cleaning/developing routes, even more people with zero experience in this area chime in with the 'thou shalt not chip' mantra. It's so thick it's become a religious type dogma.
What I've always found interesting is how quickly newer climbers become engrained with their 'ethics.' How do you develop such passionate feelings about something you know little about, in a short amount of time? My guess is that it has something to do with what roughster talked about, fitting into the crowd.
It's as if climbers are looking to find fault as well. I'm pretty psyched on some of the local areas here, and always ask other local climbers if they've checked them out. And I always hear the same bullshit. "It's bolted too tight" a comment I heard from a 5.11 climber about a 5.8. Get on something harder chucklehead, then tell me what you think of bolt spacing! "I heard Bionic Bitch Slap was chipped." Are you kidding me? the complaints I've heard about "chipped holds" that weren't even touched far outnumber the complaints about holds that have actually seen varying degrees of cleaning. It's all such nonsense, I stopped listening to it. People just have no clue.
I could go on, but it would be futile. How many more uninformed
1)NO
2)NO
3)NO
responses does this thread need?
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jt512
Oct 11, 2005, 8:55 PM
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In reply to: jt512 wrote: In reply to: most rock just doesn't make for good routes in its natural state I have to call s--- on this statement jt
Would you care to substantiate that in some way?
-Jay
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fluxus
Oct 11, 2005, 9:11 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: Its funny because this is the case in so many ways in climbing, the recreational climbers believe in a completely synthetic version of climbing history and ethics. Completely synthetic? The whole history of climbing? How about some examples? DMT
O.K. I realize that my last statement was more catagorical than it should have been. Its not as simple as the dichotomy that my post implies.
The history of climbing is murky at best. Since you asked for some, here are examples for you: The way recreational climbers lionize and overstate the achievement of the so called "vulgarians," a group of climbers who climbed in the gunks in the late 60 - 70s.
When a flurry of new route activity begain at Lost City in the late 1980's I was told straight out by more than one uninformed recreational climber that the new routes could not possibly be FA's because the vulgarians had already done all the routes at lost city! This statement is catagorically false yet even today I'm sure that you can find people who assume that this rag-tag group of climbers were regularly climbing all sorts of 5.12+ / 5.13 face climbs in 1974. (the truth is that only 1 maybe 2 climbers were climbing at the level in the Gunks at that time and it took them huge amounts of effort to climb 5.12a/b)
Another example is a little more broad but closer to the context of this thread. Here in California there have been a few famous climbers that have been outspoken about the superiority of their so called "climbing ethics", or in denouncing sport climbing for all sorts of reasons including its damage to the rock. Initials such as YC and RR among others come to mind. Many in the world of climbing take these statements at face value as the voices of great men whoes ideas should be respected and followed.
For me, (and others) these "great men" revealed their foolishness and egomania by asking us to buy into their ideas about "purity" without refrencing the tons of rock they trundled and cleaned, the trees they cut down, or damaged, the thousands upon thousands of feet of cracks they blugened to death with pins, the scars still visable today.
Where ever there is trad climbing there is a comunity of backwards looking climbers that mythologize some sort of "good old days" when climbing was somehow better, or more bold, or more adventerous. But I statred climbing at the end of those "good old days" and while there were a few standout climbers and achievements (there always are, in every age), for the most part the presumed glory of the past is greatly over stated.
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billcoe_
Oct 11, 2005, 9:22 PM
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In reply to: jt512 wrote: In reply to: most rock just doesn't make for good routes in its natural state I have to call s--- on this statement jt
Frankly I'm surprised no one has called bull*shite on the rest of the statements as well.
When did power drilling holes become acceptable to bring a route down to your level. It's crap. I don't care if you are a begineer or a long time climber.
That is a hell of a lot different than knocking loose rocks off.
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mbg
Oct 11, 2005, 9:49 PM
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In reply to: At what grade is the cut off for you? We have clarified that 5.5 is too low. You feel that is inappropriate. But that a V11 with multile pockets drilled so that it is a 5.10 is fine. How about a 5.11 being drilled to be a 5.9? Or where is that number?
It’s interesting that the pro-chip crowd are ignoring this question because it makes a hell of a point.
Publicity lends legitimacy. It's one thing to practice a certain style of “ethics” at your home crag, but it's not doing anyone a favor to advise relative beginners to get with the times and embrace chipping everywhere because rock sucks without a little modification.
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jt512
Oct 11, 2005, 10:01 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: How about a 5.11 being drilled to be a 5.9? It’s interesting that the pro-chip crowd are ignoring this question because it makes a hell of a point.
The question is difficult to answer because it's a semi-stupid question. It is difficult to envision a route that would go from 5.11 to 5.9 by drilling a hold de novo. More common and realistic would be for the FAist to glue a loose hold, which if cleaned instead would produce a single 5.11 move on an otherwise 5.9 route. That sort of thing is done all the time. It is likely that you've climbed on many such routes yourself without having any idea as to what went into developing them.
A point that anti-chipping theorists consistently fail to grasp is that much so-called chipping is not done so that the FAist can climb the route. It's done so that the average recreational climbers out there can climb the route. Most FAists are 5.12 and up climbers, yet most FAists put up a myriad of moderate routes, which involve precisely the sort of alterations we are discussing. They aren't doing it so that they can climb the routes. They're doing it so that you can.
Happy now?
-Jay
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thestingrea
Oct 11, 2005, 10:14 PM
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Somewhat straying from the path this poll is winding is a slightly different issue. Publicly owned land is just that, publicly owned land. Unless some sort of majority vote (community, state, even country wide) can be taken I don't see how anyone should have the right to decide for everyone else how their rock should be shaped. In other words its probably better to leave it for someone who today or fifty years from now will think it is just right. That said everyone have fun, get out there and find a sweet new route.
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caughtinside
Oct 11, 2005, 10:21 PM
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In reply to: Somewhat straying from the path this poll is winding is a slightly different issue. Publicly owned land is just that, publicly owned land. Unless some sort of majority vote (community, state, even country wide) can be taken I don't see how anyone should have the right to decide for everyone else how their rock should be shaped. In other words its probably better to leave it for someone who today or fifty years from now will think it is just right. That said everyone have fun, get out there and find a sweet new route.
Gotta love the 'increase regulation, please' faction! :lol:
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fluxus
Oct 11, 2005, 11:05 PM
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In reply to: I don't see how anyone should have the right to decide for everyone else how their rock should be shaped. In other words its probably better to leave it for someone who today or fifty years from now will think it is just right.
But that misses the point completely, there is no "just right" unless you mean," find the person who is willing to glue every inch of the climb in place." at least it means that in areas such as Maple etc. At some area every first ascent decides how the rock will be shaped, but this has nothing to do with "rights", nor should it really.
In reply to: mbg wrote: In reply to: billcoe_ wrote: How about a 5.11 being drilled to be a 5.9? It’s interesting that the pro-chip crowd are ignoring this question because it makes a hell of a point.
who are you calling pro-chipping? For the chipping ambivalent such as myself, it only makes a so-so point. I've see routes chipped up and chipped down. What I hope for regardless of the style and "ethics" of the first ascent is a good route with interesting moves, that has an aesthetic quality to it.
The only real problem with chipping routes down is the issue of robbing the future. In some cases chippping may be done in a way that a high quality but far too hard by today's standards route gets reduced to 5.14 or 5.15. I'm not sure if I know of this happening, though, its a more theoritical point.
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mbg
Oct 11, 2005, 11:06 PM
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In reply to: Happy now? -Jay
Not really.
I mostly agree with your gluing scenario but to say that it happens all the time (at least in the places I climb, major choss excluded) is a stretch. Most of the routes I’ve been involved with are on super soft sandstone and no gluing or chipping was needed to produce lines with a decent range of ratings.
The “for the good of all” development theory is credible too but it still doesn’t address Bill’s question in relation to the original post.
I always thought that whoever named the California Ethics Pinnacle at Shelf was taking a cheap shot but now I'm not so sure! :wink:
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jt512
Oct 11, 2005, 11:11 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: Happy now? -Jay Not really. I mostly agree with your gluing scenario but to say that it happens all the time (at least in the places I climb, major choss excluded) is a stretch. Most of the routes I’ve been involved with are on super soft sandstone and no gluing or chipping was needed to produce lines with a wide range of ratings.
So, instead, what, the FAist just pulled off the "loose" holds? He/you still had to decide what constitutes "loose." The definition of loose has a wide enough gray area to give the FAist a huge degree of control over what the final route will be like. A jug in the middle of an otherwise 5.13 route is going to be a lot "looser" than one in the middle of a 5.9.
-Jay
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hasbeen
Oct 11, 2005, 11:13 PM
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There should be some sort of rule where one cannot speak about how a route was established until one has established at least one route themselves. It's quite unbelievable that these folks will continue to banter back and forth with absolutely no ammunition but comments they've read countless times in magazines like 'bringing the rock down to their level.'
I've said it before and I'll say it again, until you're out there pioneering yourself, you have no idea what you're spraying about.
Again, without naming any names, I'll provide you with another story featuring the uninformed, this time one that may have had negative consequences.
I get a phone call one day from someone asking if I'd been to such and such a place. "Duuuude," this guy begins. "They totaly botched the job, man. Brought the cliff down to their own level. I went to the landowners and they're pissed. They're shutting the place down. Those assholes ruined it for everyone, bro."
"That seems a little strange," I reply. "Because I've spoken to the first ascentionists and they both told me the only thing that was too bad about the place was that there weren't any hard routes.
"No way, duuuude. They brought the cliff down to their level."
"But aren't the routes all 5.10?"
"Yeah, mainly."
"Well both these guys climb 5.13. Why would they chip a bunch of 5.10s?"
Really long silence on the other end of the line.
"Umm, duuude. I don't know, man. But they botched it."
"Look," I say. "If I were you I'd go back to the land owner and try and smooth this over. That's insane. There is no way those guys would spend the time to chip 5.10s. It's just too much work, if nothing else."
"I dunno, man. Well, okay. I'll look again. But I'm pretty sure..."
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mbg
Oct 11, 2005, 11:25 PM
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In reply to: So, instead, what, the FAist just pulled off the "loose" holds? He/you still had to decide what constitutes "loose." The definition of loose has a wide enough gray area to give the FAist a huge degree of control over what the final route will be like. A jug in the middle of an otherwise 5.13 route is going to be a lot "looser" than one in the middle of a 5.9. -Jay
Read back through my posts on this topic; I can't argue with you on that.
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moose_droppings
Oct 12, 2005, 12:06 AM
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If your climbing for numbers, (5.7 5.9 .512 whatever), your climbing for the wrong reasons IMO
Climb what you can find, and leave it the way you found it.
Evidently, in this instant self gratifacation society, anyone can do anything they want, anywhere, anytime. Next it will be people suing the route builders for not making the route safe enough, incourageing people to climb there route with chips and bolts, but not enough for gramma who got half way up and fell. Boy do I want to be on that jury. Carefull what you wish for people.
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arrow
Oct 12, 2005, 1:07 AM
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jt512 wrote:
In reply to: Most FAists are 5.12 and up climbers, yet most FAists put up a myriad of moderate routes, which involve precisely the sort of alterations we are discussing. They aren't doing it so that they can climb the routes. They're doing it so that you can.
Most First Ascensionists (myself included) are motivated by the adventure of climbing something new. Some FAers are motivated to put up the hardest routes they can find so they gain hardman status. I can't imagine any FAer putting up a 5.11 and then dumbing it down to 5.9 as a public service. That's the silliest bit of nonsense I've read in a long time. :lol:
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jt512
Oct 12, 2005, 1:30 AM
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In reply to: jt512 wrote: In reply to: Most FAists are 5.12 and up climbers, yet most FAists put up a myriad of moderate routes, which involve precisely the sort of alterations we are discussing. They aren't doing it so that they can climb the routes. They're doing it so that you can. Most First Ascensionists (myself included) are motivated by the adventure of climbing something new. Some FAers are motivated to put up the hardest routes they can find so they gain hardman status. I can't imagine any FAer putting up a 5.11 and then dumbing it down to 5.9 as a public service. That's the silliest bit of nonsense I've read in a long time. :lol:
Then you're very naive.
-Jay
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dingus
Oct 12, 2005, 3:46 AM
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In reply to: This statement is catagorically false yet even today I'm sure that you can find people who assume that this rag-tag group of climbers were regularly climbing all sorts of 5.12+ / 5.13 face climbs in 1974.
I thought the Vulgarians were late 50's into the 60's. Now dude, I've read extensively and I don't think the Vulgarians climbed out the Gunks or established a bunch of 12's. Uninformed noobs do not a synthetic past make.
In reply to: Where ever there is trad climbing there is a comunity of backwards looking climbers that mythologize some sort of "good old days" when climbing was somehow better, or more bold, or more adventerous.
You may have a point to a certain extent. So what? Every society has those who look back and lionize the deeds of the forefathers. In some cases they get paid for it. It isn't a great crime to hold the past in reverence or something casually approaching it, like in climbing. Its good to have those who remember.
But all the trad climbers I know also boulder, sport, have done walls, and ice and shit and some of them even started before this decline you speak of. Honestly, not to score a debating point, these people are not looking backward, they're scanning the horizon for the most part. They have respect for the past and it colors their actions. But they seem to choose the best things to act upon. S'why I like climbing with them so much.
In reply to: But I statred climbing at the end of those "good old days" and while there were a few standout climbers and achievements (there always are, in every age), for the most part the presumed glory of the past is greatly over stated.
So what? It isn't the job of the story teller to present a Xerox copy of some climb or tell every last detail about a generaton of climbers. Oral history is hugely ingrained in us all. There is a deep delight in the well told story. If allegory and lessons can be woven into the deeds of our forefathers, we are the prouder for it.
Don't denigrate our myths my friend, REVEL IN THEM! A generation of climbers is measured by its deeds yes. But it is also revealed in its dreams. Sure, RR, YC and others were human, flawed from the git. However, it cannot be credibly denied, both men played a major role in shaping not only OUR deeds, but our dreams too, a whole generation, maybe more.
That generation is aging now. They now represent the static past as youngsters today seek out new challenges. Twas no different when Robbins was a kid working in a bank. Never mind, there was a big difference. Back then climbing was fringe, instead of merely pretending to be so, as most of it is today.
Fluxux, I sense you have some stories in you too. Come on man, its part of being in the tribe. Ya gots your noobs (who don't know shit about climbing OR its history) and ya gots yer scribes. There are leaders and followers, inventors and fools. Old curmudgeons too. Climbers all. We're entitled to lionize the past. Allow us our fetish, I beg you good sir!
Cheers man
DMT
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oldrnotboldr
Oct 12, 2005, 2:59 PM
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1- no
2- no
3- no
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lizard0fthetrail
Oct 12, 2005, 3:12 PM
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1) no.
2) no.
3) no, under the usual circumstance. I, however, if put in a situation where I owned a parcel of land containing a blank face/cave/boulder, would have very little ethical issue on whether or not to chip it. I almost definitely would, if for no more reason than a cheap/free training ground outside. Furthermore, if I had a large piece of property and could allocate some of the reseources on my property to my advantage, i.e. using stones for walkways/walls/building or wood, without creating anything more than a mild impact, I certainly would, and I suppose many others would too. The environmental impact of chipping a rock is nil.
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billcoe_
Oct 12, 2005, 3:32 PM
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In reply to: Remember, we are not discussing cleaning routes, comfortizing holds, or glue reinforcing suspect features. We are simply considering cases where the rock presents free climbing difficulties that the route developer can not overcome.
jt512, it appears you did not see this part of the first post? Nobody is talking about knocking loose rocks off a new route. Far as that goes, the question #2 asked was if you would drill new holds, it wasn't would you chip new holds.
As far as the gluing comment, I've never seen or heard of that done around here. The one notable time it happened at Dishman in washington state, it was roundly condemmed. I could understand gluing an existing marginal hold so that it was strengthened and would not pull off. I have not seen or heard of, or ever done a route drilled to make it easier either.
I think that is wrong on many levels.
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jt512
Oct 12, 2005, 4:03 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: Remember, we are not discussing cleaning routes, comfortizing holds, or glue reinforcing suspect features. We are simply considering cases where the rock presents free climbing difficulties that the route developer can not overcome. jt512, it appears you did not see this part of the first post? Nobody is talking about knocking loose rocks off a new route. Far as that goes, the question #2 asked was if you would drill new holds, it wasn't would you chip new holds.
If you want to confine the conversation strictly to the limits of the OP, then we also have to say that nobody was talking about 5.5 and 5.7 routes, except you.
-Jay
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billcoe_
Oct 12, 2005, 4:19 PM
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Can you spell a-n-a-l-o-g-y rock defacer? :lol:
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dingus
Oct 12, 2005, 4:27 PM
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So... what I am hearing from JT512 and others is that not only was Yaniro right (again), but that he ushred in an era where most new routes are chipped?
I've opened routes. Outside of choss pile sport climbing cliffs, Jay, I think you are WAY OVERSTATING your case.
I don't really care about chipping at places like Jailhouse. But pretending that is the norm 24/7 across this great land is ludicrous. None of the routes I've established are chipped. None of the routes my friends have established are chipped. None of my closest partners would agree that chipping is acceptable. ALL OF THEM have opened new routes and have been climbing for 20 years plus.
So I have to call BULLSHIT on the 'most routes are chipped and I'm niave to think otherwise.' BULL SHIT.
You guys who promote chipping as if it were the holy grail... you have signed on to Ray Jardine's philisophy that says it would be preferrable to have a 5.10 free route on El Cap even if that means chipping and glue on holds.
I'm not prepared to accept that. I'd say most in Yosemite feel the same way.
Maybe its just you SoCal sport climbers who have sold out to the chipping devil. The way you speak of it, ALL route developers down there chip. I don't believe you for a minute, but I feel sorry for the state of SoCal climbing if chisel weilding 'developers' are roaming the Monument looking to Michaelangelo new climbs. What a revolting thought. If you restate it to say, hey, this mostly goes down on choss pile sport cliffs, I think I would understand. But most new trad routes, ut uh, chipping would be an abberation, not the norm.
You personally are encouraging chipping, with your highly visible stance. You certainly promote it anyway.
DMT
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billcoe_
Oct 12, 2005, 4:30 PM
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Thank Dingus: totally concur.
I was beginning to feel alone in this conversation.
we're having an arguement up here if it is right to put slings with a rap ring around a tree to try and save it, nobody wants bolts on the mid-route end of pitch ledge in case the tree dies and falls.
Starting to feel things are radiacally different in Calif., but I was in Yos this spring and nothing seemed remiss.
Did climb at Schultzes ridge with Dave Hardin, lots of bolts over that way, but no drilled pockets to make the routes go that I could see.
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mbg
Oct 12, 2005, 4:32 PM
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Well said Dingus, thanks for stepping up.
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billcoe_
Oct 12, 2005, 4:53 PM
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In reply to: None of the routes I've established are chipped. None of the routes my friends have established are chipped. None of my closest partners would agree that chipping is acceptable. ALL OF THEM have opened new routes and have been climbing for 20 years plus.
Same here, and I know lots of people around this area developing as well.
I knew a guy who once hammered a small tree trunk (like a large Christmas tree size, 5" across x 4 " high) into a crack once so if you fell your rope wouldn't get chopped by the sharp edge/flake of the rock which would have existed without the tree stump being hammered in there. Course that chosspile was a former rock quarry, there use to be lots of "hold modification" with dynamite that ended like @50 years ago.
But that's about it that I know about, and someday that stump will rot out of there, or you could easilly hammer it back out right now if you wanted to do the route "Au Natural" and face the risk.
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notch
Oct 12, 2005, 4:56 PM
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In reply to: Post your responses to the three questions with either a YES (chipping is acceptable), NO (not acceptable), or NO OPINION (i.e. ambilvilence or don't care). No justifications please... this is a poll, not a discussion. |
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fluxus
Oct 12, 2005, 5:06 PM
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In reply to: I thought the Vulgarians were late 50's into the 60's. Now dude, I've read extensively and I don't think the Vulgarians climbed out the Gunks or established a bunch of 12's. Uninformed noobs do not a synthetic past make.
In this case hundred or maybe thousands of misinformed recreational climbers do make a synthethic past. They are the one's telling the stories and building up a past that didn't really exist, and by the way they also inform public policy in some cases. This was evident during the so called bolt wars that occurred in the late 1980 on the east coast, many out spoken opponents of bolting based their opposition to bolting on thier misunderstanding of the past. We're not just talking about a few stupid noobs we are talking about every post vulgarian generation in the gunks. Not that you care, but you are completely wrong in acting like it doesn't matter because at specific times and places it matters very much.
Although I don't think you intended to make this argument, your last post basically says that history, or any sense of fairness / fullness of historical accounts does not matter; people will do what they want with it and thats fine by you. What ever. Its not fine by me because when it comes to chipping, bolting and so called ethics (sic.) lies about the purity of the past are constantly put forth as excuses to slander, inhibit, punish, vandalize etc the work of people putting up routes in the present.
Celebrating the past is a totally different issue, I can find many things worth celebrating in the history of climbing but it would be great if celebrating the past didn't translate into attempts to inhibit the present, and if our sense of the past allowed us to approach the dogmatism of the past in its proper context or al least with some objectivity.
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dingus
Oct 12, 2005, 5:34 PM
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In reply to: Although I don't think you intended to make this argument, your last post basically says that history, or any sense of fairness / fullness of historical accounts does not matter; people will do what they want with it and thats fine by you.
You're right, I did not make that argument. Shall I start inserting words into your mouth now too???
To paraphrase what I attempted to say, NO historical account is 100% accurate. Its like a map, the only accurate map is a complete recreation of the terrain. We don't have maps like that and our history doesn't work that way either.
In reply to: lies about the purity of the past are constantly put forth as excuses to slander, inhibit, punish, vandalize etc the work of people putting up routes in the present.
Lies about the past cut across the grain from both directions. You launched this discussion by saying that ANYWHERE you have trad climbers you have backward looking people who use lies to promote their antiquated agendas in today's world. You paint people with an airbrush and then pretend that the 'other side' doesn't do the same thing? Whatever is RIGHT.
In reply to: Celebrating the past is a totally different issue, I can find many things worth celebrating in the history of climbing but it would be great if celebrating the past didn't translate into attempts to inhibit the present, and if our sense of the past allowed us to approach the dogmatism of the past in its proper context or al least with some objectivity.
Yup. More people should be like me, then the world would be a better place.
DMT for President!
DMT
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dingus
Oct 12, 2005, 5:38 PM
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BTW, if outright lies were used to convince the Preserve to ban bolts, I say that lie accomplished a good thing. The ends justify the means in this case, just like they do in rap bolting. A preserved Gunks is as internationally important, I believe, as is a preserved Tuolumne Meadows and Dresden. Not everything needs to be bolted by your pure-as-the-wind-driven-snow developers anyway.
DMT
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snodawg
Oct 12, 2005, 6:35 PM
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NO NO AND NO AGAIN
Arnold for president
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dingus
Oct 12, 2005, 6:37 PM
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In reply to: NO NO AND NO AGAIN Arnold for president
Arnold can't be president and your sig line doesn't agree with itself, climber is singular and their is plural.
You're welcome!
Got any live sex shows going on up there yet?
DMT
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jbak
Oct 12, 2005, 6:48 PM
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In reply to: I don't really care about chipping at places like Jailhouse. But pretending that is the norm 24/7 across this great land is ludicrous. You guys who promote chipping as if it were the holy grail... If you restate it to say, hey, this mostly goes down on choss pile sport cliffs, I think I would understand. DMT
Personally, I would restate it "hey, this mostly goes down on choss pile sport cliffs". In that case, it's hard to say exactly what chipping means. If you clean off 2 inches of potato chip flakes and a hold starts to appear, did you chip ? What if that hold will need reinforcement to stick around for long ? Are you sculpting ?
I once had some jerk yell at me for chipping while I was prying off a death block. Maybe I should have left it for him to pull down on his belayer. It showed me how clueless newbie climbers can be.
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jt512
Oct 12, 2005, 6:52 PM
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In reply to: Can you spell a-n-a-l-o-g-y rock defacer? :lol:
I can even spell "false analogy."
-Jay
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billcoe_
Oct 12, 2005, 7:44 PM
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In reply to: I can even spell "false analogy." -Jay
Well it won't matter cause I've already decided to vote for Dingus so there :nono: :mrgreen:
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fluxus
Oct 12, 2005, 8:35 PM
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Dingus,
You're knack for missing the point is impressive.
On the bigger topic, everyone is diss'n on Jay with his comments about chipping being the norm.
Jay's remark presents a challenge to us: Are their areas that are free of chipping? Have there been times in climbing history when climber's didn't chip or alter the rock / routes in some way? Its a no brainer that there are many places where such actions are considered off-limits and not acceptable in any what but these areas are also not free of these actions.
The Gunks is a good example, in that it was / is one of the last strong holds for a certain way of thinking about climbing but the rusting 1/4 in. bolts on some routes are a Testament to the lack of stability in the governing ideology as are chipped nut placements, and manufactured holds that appear on some routes.
What Jay and I are suggesting is that we should sideline the debated over whether chipping is bad or not and look at the issue from the point of view of what role chipping has played and continues to play in American climbing. I realize that this is scary because it asks one to check their dogma at the door, but it's really the only chance we have of learning anything and to be honest about our history. From this perspective one has to admit that chipping is a nominative practice in areas such as socal and a great deal of the inter-mountain west. Not because evil, bands of crazed FAers are hoping to deface the rock but because cleaning and gluing are necessary for putting up routes in many climbing areas.
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dingus
Oct 12, 2005, 9:00 PM
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In reply to: Dingus, You're knack for missing the point is impressive.
Surpassed only by your knack for failing to make them.
In reply to: On the bigger topic, everyone is diss'n on Jay with his comments about chipping being the norm.
EVERYONE is not dissing jt. What else are you overstating??? Oh, that's right, ALL ROUTES ARE CHIPPED. Or some such shit.
In reply to: Jay's remark presents a challenge to us: Are their areas that are free of chipping? Have there been times in climbing history when climber's didn't chip or alter the rock / routes in some way? Its a no brainer that there are many places where such actions are considered off-limits and not acceptable in any what but these areas are also not free of these actions.
That's a far cry from 'most routes are chipped.' Its a long way from 'all developers' chip too.
In reply to: The Gunks is a good example, in that it was / is one of the last strong holds for a certain way of thinking about climbing but the rusting 1/4 in. bolts on some routes are a Testament to the lack of stability in the governing ideology as are chipped nut placements, and manufactured holds that appear on some routes.
Its governing ideology that chipped those holds, eh? Wow.
In reply to: What Jay and I are suggesting is that we should sideline the debated over whether chipping is bad or not and look at the issue from the point of view of what role chipping has played and continues to play in American climbing.
Actually I'm quite willing to acknowledge that the secret life of chipping has long been with us. So???
In reply to: I realize that this is scary because it asks one to check their dogma at the door,
Damn, you're more condescending tham I AM! BRAVO!
In reply to: From this perspective one has to admit that chipping is a nominative practice in areas such as socal and a great deal of the inter-mountain west. Not because evil, bands of crazed FAers are hoping to deface the rock but because cleaning and gluing are necessary for putting up routes in many climbing areas.
That's a far cry from 'most new routes are chipped.' Its even further from 'most routes are chipped.'
I'm not the one saying chipping is evil. I am calling you pro-chippers onto the carpet for implying the myopic view that because YOU GUYS CHIP so does everyone else.
Everyone does not chip. There are those who disagree with the notion of it whether that disagreement stems from a idealized view of the past, a stern environmental focus or because they merely parrot that which they were taught. Humans run the gamut, imo most people simply follow what they were taught without much consideration for other views cept how to argue against them.
From that view point I'd say your dogma isn't any better than mine or anyone elses. That leaves of with a difference of opinion, something I can certainly live with.
But it does not = 'most routes are chipped.'
Neither of you have any sort of grasp on this elusive 'accurate' history to which you refer that would give you credibility to make the statement.
I'd be far more interested in FACTS fluxus, like WHICH ROUTES HAVE YOU PERSONALLY CHIPPED?
DMT
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fracture
Oct 13, 2005, 1:51 AM
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In reply to: Arnold can't be president and your sig line doesn't agree with itself, climber is singular and their is plural.
Oh come on, Dingus. You're one of the last people on this site that I'd expect to be touting that type of nonsense. ;)
There's even usages in Shakespeare of "they" with a singular antecedent. The form is a widely preferred (and probably also more widely used when it comes to informal, spoken English) alternative to the phrase "he or she" as a neutral gender pronoun.
Ya might give this, and this, and especially this (which says usage dates back to the 1300's, and that it only started to be perceived as "incorrect" grammar in the late 18th century) a read, if you're feeling bored. :P
(Not to distract from this heated debate or anything).
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ambler
Oct 13, 2005, 5:38 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: Arnold can't be president and your sig line doesn't agree with itself, climber is singular and their is plural. Oh come on, Dingus. You're one of the last people on this site that I'd expect to be touting that type of nonsense. ;)
Just to illustrate this wordy thread, here's an image for the OP's question 2.
http://im1.shutterfly.com/...000026108AbOWzdszbNh
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dahoobit
Oct 13, 2005, 5:59 PM
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1) NO
2) NO
3) NO
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fracture
Oct 14, 2005, 2:26 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: Arnold can't be president and your sig line doesn't agree with itself, climber is singular and their is plural.Oh come on, Dingus. You're one of the last people on this site that I'd expect to be touting that type of nonsense. ;) [discussion of the singular "they" snipped by ambler] Dingus ain't "touting nonsense," he's making some of the best sense on this thread. Among other things, he's reminding folks that "climbing" and "first ascents" encompass other games besides "sport climbing," that not all new rock is choss, and that stereotypes often don't fit.
Heh.
Try re-reading. I highlighted some things to make it easier for you.
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ambler
Oct 14, 2005, 1:19 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: Arnold can't be president and your sig line doesn't agree with itself, climber is singular and their is plural.Oh come on, Dingus. You're one of the last people on this site that I'd expect to be touting that type of nonsense. ;) [discussion of the singular "they" snipped by ambler] Dingus ain't "touting nonsense," he's making some of the best sense on this thread. Among other things, he's reminding folks that "climbing" and "first ascents" encompass other games besides "sport climbing," that not all new rock is choss, and that stereotypes often don't fit. Heh. Try re-reading. I highlighted some things to make it easier for you. |
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cchildre
Oct 14, 2005, 2:21 PM
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1. No
2. No - who says hardmen won't like a 5.10 up into a 5.13 crux, especially those looking to break into the 5.13 realm, because I think someone would.
3. No - unless it is private property, and then your can do as you please, but I would compare it to gym climbing, not natural at all.
Just keep it natural, there are plenty of lines that you can put up that don't need to be chipped. If someone puts up a route above their limit, they should be given an adequate time to get the first free ascent, but if a year passes, then it is open season. Chipping the holds to get the FA is just misguided IMO.
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fracture
Oct 14, 2005, 2:26 PM
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In reply to: I know what you said, was unimpressed, but used your "touting nonsense" quote to frame my response to the more interesting discussion above.
Ahh, so you deliberately quoted me out of context.
How nice.
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fracture
Oct 14, 2005, 2:31 PM
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In reply to: 2. No - who says hardmen won't like a 5.10 up into a 5.13 crux, especially those looking to break into the 5.13 realm, because I think someone would.
FYI, V11 is harder than 5.13.
In reply to: Chipping the holds to get the FA is just misguided IMO.
It's also not quite what is being discussed.
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nrgroscoe
Oct 14, 2005, 2:58 PM
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My answer to all three is NO.
As one who has chipped and then regretted it later, went back and filled the holds and then resent it, it is was a stupid move on my part.
Hindsight is 50/50 and after that episode i see the value of trying harder and then if not able to do it leave it for the next climber. I left quite a few projects in mexico because i was not strong enough to send it and smart enough to leave it be....
Learn from others mistakes and admit when you make one. Tony Yaniro should learn this lesson...
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cchildre
Oct 14, 2005, 3:19 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: 2. No - who says hardmen won't like a 5.10 up into a 5.13 crux, especially those looking to break into the 5.13 realm, because I think someone would. FYI, V11 is harder than 5.13. In reply to: Chipping the holds to get the FA is just misguided IMO. It's also not quite what is being discussed.
FYI, V11 is a boulder rating and 5.13 is a sport rating. Comparision is debatable and really shouldn't be made IMO, I was merely using a general reference, not the exact one you seek, so its .14a/b, I think my point is still applicable.
Also, chipping holds to get the FA is exactly whats being discussed, or did you not read the very first question the OP started off with? LOL, nice try!
In reply to: 1) ......... Is it acceptable for the developer to enlarge these holds so that he can complete the first ascent? |
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fracture
Oct 14, 2005, 11:38 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: 2. No - who says hardmen won't like a 5.10 up into a 5.13 crux, especially those looking to break into the 5.13 realm, because I think someone would. FYI, V11 is harder than 5.13. FYI, V11 is a boulder rating and 5.13 is a sport rating. Comparision is debatable and really shouldn't be made IMO, I was merely using a general reference, not the exact one you seek, so its .14a/b, I think my point is still applicable.
Doesn't matter whether you think it "should" be made---it can be and often is made. The hypothetical route we have been discussing (5.10---negligable difficulty relatively speaking---up to a V11) would implicitly condone such conversions if given a YDS rating.
You yourself made such a comparison by calling our hypothetical route 5.13.
In reply to: Also, chipping holds to get the FA is exactly whats being discussed, or did you not read the very first question the OP started off with? LOL, nice try! In reply to: 1) ......... Is it acceptable for the developer to enlarge these holds so that he can complete the first ascent?
We were talking about item #2.
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teflondon
Oct 15, 2005, 1:34 AM
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(1) NO
(2) NO
(3) ONLY IF PRIVATELY OWNED
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jobo
Oct 15, 2005, 1:52 AM
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no
hell no
and no, just to keep in line with my previous responses.
Seriously though, if u want to chip something, go and work your houses brick wall over, leave the rock as it was
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deschamps1000
Oct 15, 2005, 3:38 AM
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1. No
2. No
3. No
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cchildre
Oct 15, 2005, 7:23 PM
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In reply to: Doesn't matter whether you think it "should" be made---it can be and often is made. The hypothetical route we have been discussing (5.10---negligable difficulty relatively speaking---up to a V11) would implicitly condone such conversions if given a YDS rating. You yourself made such a comparison by calling our hypothetical route 5.13.
Yeah.....well you got me there....for lack of unified terminology, I must submit.
In reply to: Also, chipping holds to get the FA is exactly whats being discussed, or did you not read the very first question the OP started off with? LOL, nice try! In reply to: 1) ......... Is it acceptable for the developer to enlarge these holds so that he can complete the first ascent? We were talking about item #2.
I was not....I suppose that should have been clearer in my original reply.
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fracture
Oct 16, 2005, 2:13 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: Also, chipping holds to get the FA is exactly whats being discussed, or did you not read the very first question the OP started off with? LOL, nice try! In reply to: 1) ......... Is it acceptable for the developer to enlarge these holds so that he can complete the first ascent? We were talking about item #2. I was not....I suppose that should have been clearer in my original reply.
*nod*
FWIW, I completely agree with you on that partifcular aspect: if you are chipping just so that you can get the FA, that's lame.
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theicemoose
Oct 13, 2006, 4:26 AM
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It's easy to state that all new routing requires chipping. I recall vividly pulling a volleyball-sized chunk of iron-laced sandstone (formerly the obvious rest on our onsight first ascent idea) off, nearly onto my belayer (who was wearing the only helmet we owned between us). On this new route, put up onsight, ground-up, and on clean gear only, the only "chipping" that took place was the bruce lee style kicking I used to identify the solid footholds as distinct from the choss. We rapped directly from a tree on top, leaving no trace whatsoever of our ascent, never reported the route in any way, and left happy and fulfilled. The next party up the route will have bushwhacked, cleaned with hands and feet, no crowbars required, and summited in a similar style, and unless they look closely at some suspiciously-smashed little former thin rails of friable sandstone, they will have the first ascent to themselves, too. I admit freely that every route will not go down in this fashion, and I even more freely admit that a lot of people would never want to climb a route this "un-user-friendly" [offwidth roofs aren't on everyone's menu]-I'm just asking the chippers if we ALL have to suddenly be Joe Brooks, too, just because they made a less than admirable choice at one point. What people are avoiding saying is that this kind of first ascent ethic is less cool than a route made with a purer ethic. People's self-worth is too wrapped up in their "route creations" and "lifetime projects" to be able to stand up and say "hey, I made this route, it's pretty fun, I chipped it up a little to improve a section I thought wasn't that cool, so climb it and see if you think I was right to fix that part." No, people are ashamed, and scared of consequences for their actions, which is ridiculous considering how rarely the BLM ever chases down anyone for anything. Brooks got off scott free for Potosi, Charleston, the Promised Land, etc...why not just be honest with everyone if there's nothing wrong with how you're new-routing? Because there is, and you know it. And so do we.
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doogle
Oct 13, 2006, 5:06 AM
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Why did you go and raise the dead? Just let this thread RIP!
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veganboyjosh
Oct 13, 2006, 5:55 AM
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dude. if you'da waited three more days, it'da been a year.
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rrrADAM
Oct 13, 2006, 6:35 AM
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No to all 3.
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dynoho
Oct 13, 2006, 7:00 AM
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Well, it's alive again.
First off, forget the plural/singular, how about the spelling?
A Climber's Biggest obsticle is Their MIND!!!!
In all examples, I would say the answer today is no. What was acceptable in the past is no longer seen as such. No, piton scars are not seen as chipping, but more accurately as irreparable damage that most endeavor to avoid today. I believe that preservation of the limited climbable rock is more important than the arrogant creation of new classics. In a few short years, through improved gear, shoes, technique, training, genes, etc. these routes will be conquered by many, as is. Why should they be wrecked now other than to pacify the egos of the current creator?
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ateam
Oct 13, 2006, 7:15 AM
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NO,
NO,
and NOOOOOO!
Let nature take its course! Maybe in 200 years some features will fall
off and create a perfect route! An earthquake could happen and create a nice hand crack! I'm sure there are plenty of other routes
already in existence that you haven't done yet.
--Steve
Three Ball Climbing
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ateam
Oct 13, 2006, 7:16 AM
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NO,
NO,
and NOOOOOO!
Let nature take its course! Maybe in 200 years some features will fall
off and create a perfect route! An earthquake could happen and create a nice hand crack! I'm sure there are plenty of other routes
already in existence that you haven't done yet.
--Steve
Three Ball Climbing
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bennydh
Oct 13, 2006, 8:22 AM
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1. NO
2. NO
3. NO
Grow some Eff-in balls. Go somewhere else if the climb doesn't suit your lack of ability. You chip a hole in a rock and I'll Chip a hole in your skull. !!!!
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ajkclay
Oct 13, 2006, 9:04 AM
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no
nein
nyet
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paolo75
Oct 13, 2006, 1:55 PM
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no to all three questions.
P.
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notapplicable
Oct 13, 2006, 2:06 PM
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Dont chip ever.
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pettsnjam
Oct 13, 2006, 2:28 PM
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1) NO
2) NO
3) NO
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jgloporto
Oct 13, 2006, 2:36 PM
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No to all three.
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dbrayack
Oct 13, 2006, 3:14 PM
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Where are these routes? They sound fun :)
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g_spot
Oct 13, 2006, 3:35 PM
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How can any climber justify chipping anything. If you can't climb it, then move on. Chippers should rott. The future of climbing has proved it's self and will continue to do so. There are kids doing what was thought to be impossible 15 years ago.
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thespider
Oct 13, 2006, 4:32 PM
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No, No, NO. Leave the rock for the next generations of climbers that can climb them.
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veganboyjosh
Oct 13, 2006, 4:41 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: Well, it's alive again. No, it's the walking dead. Learn the difference. This one will eat your brains. GO
there's two rules i live by in this world:
you can't knock up a pregnant lady, and you can't kill something that's already dead.
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fluxus
Oct 13, 2006, 4:48 PM
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Its Back woo-hoo!
I just love the continuous stream of NO! NO! NO! in this thread. I wonder what people think they are climbing on?
I think all the people who said NO to all three should put their money where their keyboard is an refuse to climb at any crag that has been chipped to show that its unaccaptable and they won't stand for it.
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blazesod
Oct 13, 2006, 4:53 PM
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If you chip the rock without the use of tools i.e.) using your teeth, fingernails or skull, then I vote yes to all three.
If on the other hand you wish to use tools, then no, no and no.
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the_climber
Oct 13, 2006, 5:41 PM
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No
NO
NO!
NO!!
and
NO
Now, if you could do it by shooting lightning bolts from your eyes and fire balls from you a$$, then go right ahead. I don't thing anyone would argue with any of the options in the OP if you could do that. :D
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veganboyjosh
Oct 13, 2006, 5:57 PM
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In reply to: shooting lightning bolts from your eyes and fire balls from you a$$,
i didn't know william wallace was a climber...
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jt512
Oct 13, 2006, 7:17 PM
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In reply to: Its Back woo-hoo! I just love the continuous stream of NO! NO! NO! in this thread. I wonder what people think they are climbing on?
They think they're climbing on unimproved rock. Hahahahaha!!!!!11
Jay
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cracklover
Oct 13, 2006, 7:27 PM
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Necromancer:
http://redwing.hutman.net/...sets/necromancer.jpg
In reply to: Necormancer has a supernatural ability to bring long-dead forum discussion threads back to life. After having been flogged to death the thread may have been deceased for many years, and bringing it back may have scant relevance to the current topic, yet Necromancer will unexpectedly exhume the thread’s rotting corpse, and strike horror in the forum as its grotesque form lurches into the discussion. The monster, instantly recognized by all who knew it in life, seems at first to breathe and have a pulse, but, alas, it is beyond Necromancer’s skill to fully restore the thread’s original vitality. The hideous apparition may frighten away some of the weaker Warriors or Warriors badly wounded in former battles, but the thread is only a shadow of its former self and very quickly expires.
(from http://redwing.hutman.net/...shtm/necromancer.htm)
Necromancers are scum. I bet theicemoose also prefers his sex partners as cold as ice. Sick. Totally sick.
GO
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fluxus
Oct 13, 2006, 8:15 PM
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In reply to: They think they're climbing on unimproved rock. Hahahahaha!!!!!11 Jay
poor-misled-idealistic-head-in-the-sand-clueless sods. We did try to tell them earlier in this thread tho didn't we, like a year ago.
Can I do a thread jack?
Here is the challenge: name a climbing area in the U.S. that does not have routes that are chipped, "creativly cleaned", sculpted or glued etc.
Or, perhaps more to the point, list all the classic routes at your favorite crag that ARE chipped, glued and creativly cleaned and other wise manipulated.
I'll go first:
Every sandstone and limestone route in the intermountain west. with the possible exception of a few routes at "the hoop."
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david_smithrock
Oct 13, 2006, 8:50 PM
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Practically every route 5.12 or harder on Smith tuff, (yes, even the classics) are chipped or glued to some degree. The funny thing is, people don't even know! I've climbed several "four star" classics numerous times before noticing glue under a flake, or a friend pointing out a sneakily chiseled pocket.
Some of the more extreme (and obvious) examples at Smith include gluing rocks onto the wall for holds, mostly in the out-of-the-way areas. People get uptight about this, since the masses easily realize it's manufactured. (so they go to climb one they don't know is manufactured). I guess the moral is, don't make it obvious?
And lets not even get into crack climbing! It's hard to find a crack 5.11 or harder that doesn't rely on pin scars.
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diophantus
Oct 13, 2006, 9:44 PM
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Have any of you every seen the "chipped wall" in squamish, I wonder why they named it that?
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diophantus
Oct 13, 2006, 10:06 PM
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In reply to: Or, perhaps more to the point, list all the classic routes at your favorite crag that ARE chipped, glued and creativly cleaned and other wise manipulated. I'll go first: Every sandstone and limestone route in the intermountain west. with the possible exception of a few routes at "the hoop."
The Nose. Now everyone STFU.
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edl
Oct 14, 2006, 10:16 AM
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Sorry, one last point.
In reply to: And lets not even get into crack climbing! It's hard to find a crack 5.11 or harder that doesn't rely on pin scars.
Ever been to Indian Creek? Vedauwoo? South Platt? Fremont Canyon? Etc... That statement shows an obvious ignorance. In most crack climbing areas I have been to what you are saying occassionally exists but it is by FAR the exception and not the rule.
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chossmonkey
Oct 14, 2006, 12:52 PM
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In reply to: NO, NO, and NOOOOOO! Let nature take its course! Maybe in 200 years some features will fall off and create a perfect route! An earthquake could happen and create a nice hand crack! I'm sure there are plenty of other routes already in existence that you haven't done yet. --Steve Three Ball Climbing
In reply to: NO, NO, and NOOOOOO! Let nature take its course! Maybe in 200 years some features will fall off and create a perfect route! An earthquake could happen and create a nice hand crack! I'm sure there are plenty of other routes already in existence that you haven't done yet. --Steve Three Ball Climbing
What a way to make your posting debut.
Double post. :righton:
!!!!AND NOW FOR OUR FEATURE PRESENTATION!!!!
http://i26.photobucket.com/...adran/die-thread.jpg
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devkrev
Oct 14, 2006, 1:41 PM
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oh...I missed that picture!!!
That it's back makes me happy.
dev
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j_ung
Oct 14, 2006, 1:58 PM
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In reply to: Its Back woo-hoo! I just love the continuous stream of NO! NO! NO! in this thread. I wonder what people think they are climbing on? I think all the people who said NO to all three should put their money where their keyboard is an refuse to climb at any crag that has been chipped to show that its unaccaptable and they won't stand for it.
Speaking as somebody who has developed routes and boulder problems and never chipped or comfortized a single hold, I refuse to climb anything that I know has been intentionally chipped. This is not to say those routes are beneath me or anything like that. It's just my own silent protest of the practice.
However, this begs the question, where do I draw my personal line? I've certainly pried loose flakes and block off of new lines -- and is that really any different than chipping? I'll climb on glued and reinforced holds, but I've never glued any myself. I'll happily wire-brush lichen and dirt off of rock to open new routes. And, I understand fully that, sometimes normal traffic accomplishes most of the things I hate about chipping anyway.
But to me there's a difference between altering rock for safety and altering it for ego purposes. And make no mistake ego is at the root of every reason to chip. If we allow chipping in our areas to make an unclimbable line climbable, then what's to stop everybody from following the example and, say, chipping a pocket to turn a 5.9 into a 5.7? No, I think the ethic muct be applied evenly over the grades, or else, like I said, it's an ego-driven ethic.
But the trump card is this: ethics must be local in nature. I want no part in deciding or judging ethics in an area that's hundreds of miles from me and in which I may never even climb. You're a Wild Iris local and you chip? I wouldn't do it, but I have no say in whether or not you do. Likewise people who live nowhere near where I climb can keep their opinions to themselves, thank you very much.
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j_ung
Oct 14, 2006, 2:05 PM
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Oops, my bad. I didn't see that I was, in fact, a vicim of the Necromancer. :oops:
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theicemoose
Oct 14, 2006, 5:02 PM
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Okay, as a new poster, I'll take the mulligan on reviving this one. Sorry to intrude so much into everyone's extremely valuable time that they're stealing from their employers. However, I do want to just point out that
A) the intermountain west, whatever that is, isn't all things to all people. North Carolina has all natural steep 5.14 sport climbing as well as load-your-pants trad puckerfests. Didn't know about that one? This is not the only example, just a drop in the bucket. The sad thing is that you twits really think that hard climbing doesn't happen without ethical backsliding. There are 5.12 and up routes all over the West, face, crack, etc. that went in ground up, clean, without the use of Bosches and crowbars. Some have bolts, some require balls, but the real difference is that they were put up by people who are proud of the style they used to chart unclimbed territory, unlike some of these posers.
B) The line about "unimproved rock"-thanks for making me taste my breakfast again. The idea that chipping is improvement reminds me of the notion that our personal freedoms are "protected" by the patriot act. Same logic.
C)Someone asked why there wasn't a thread about what crags aren't chipped to pieces. I just posed that question to the members of this site, and appreciate any info that you can add to that list. I climbed eight nice, natural limestone routes yesterday while all this squalling was taking place in your cubicles at work. I'd love to find out where more are.
And the only cold, still sex partners of mine worth mentioning are the deceased madres of my chipping "friends." Way to keep it childish, there's a reason you sad sacks are single. Get off the computer and get a manual on "How to Date Trashy Women" if that's what it takes to get you started. Worked for me. :)
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jt512
Oct 14, 2006, 5:21 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: They think they're climbing on unimproved rock. Hahahahaha!!!!!11 Jay poor-misled-idealistic-head-in-the-sand-clueless sods. We did try to tell them earlier in this thread tho didn't we, like a year ago. Can I do a thread jack? Here is the challenge: name a climbing area in the U.S. that does not have routes that are chipped, "creativly cleaned", sculpted or glued etc.
I think that most of the routes at J Tree have gone up in their natural state, but I could be mistaken. Rock quality varies at J Tree but the better rock is pretty solid and routes either slabby or well featured.
In reply to: Or, perhaps more to the point, list all the classic routes at your favorite crag that ARE chipped, glued and creativly cleaned and other wise manipulated. I'll go first: Every sandstone and limestone route in the intermountain west. with the possible exception of a few routes at "the hoop."
The vast majority of sport routes in Southern California. This includes virtually every route in the Santa Monica Mountains, including the popular area known as Echo Cliffs. Most routes at Williamson have been altered, and, in general, the better and harder the route, the more it has been altered, with the most flagrant case being a blatantly obvious drilled hold in the crux on a local classic 5.13. Routes at Riverside Quarry are more like heavy construction projects than natural routes. Good luck finding a route at New Jack that hasn't seen some degree of manufacturing. Potosi, Clark, and Charleston/Chiselton/Chipperton - clean, glued, chipped, and drilled.
Jay
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jt512
Oct 14, 2006, 5:25 PM
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In reply to: I climbed eight nice, natural limestone routes yesterday...)
Are you sure? Which routes? Vegas limestone is notorious.
Jay
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jt512
Oct 14, 2006, 5:32 PM
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In reply to: People's self-worth is too wrapped up in their "route creations" and "lifetime projects" to be able to stand up and say "hey, I made this route, it's pretty fun, I chipped it up a little to improve a section I thought wasn't that cool, so climb it and see if you think I was right to fix that part."
Actually, people say stuff like that all the time, and, in fact, sometimes seek other climbers' opinions on which holds on a new route shlould stay and which are "loose" and need to go.
Jay
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veganboyjosh
Oct 14, 2006, 6:24 PM
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In reply to: Actually, people say stuff like that all the time, and, in fact, sometimes seek other climbers' opinions on which holds on a new route shlould stay and which are "loose" and need to go. Jay
i've not developed any routes, set any bolts, or even considered doing so myself, i don't know that it's something i'm/ever will be interested in.
but i have spoken to others who have done this, or are into developing routes/areas, as it's an interesting segment of climbing.
this idea, that a route developer would solicit advice as to which holds should stay or go seems outrageous. i didn't know this happened, and it sheds new light on the practice, for me at least.
interesting to think about...
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chossmonkey
Oct 14, 2006, 10:18 PM
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In reply to: Oops, my bad. I didn't see that I was, in fact, a vicim of the Necromancer. :oops:
And you call yourself a professional. 10,000+ posts and still making the classic nOOb mistake. :roll:
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desertdude420
Oct 14, 2006, 11:48 PM
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NO!
NO!
NO!
Chipping is NOT an acceptable part of rock climbing. It is an act that replaces having skills with admitting your meager talents.
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diophantus
Oct 15, 2006, 4:35 PM
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In reply to: Get off the computer and get a manual on "How to Date Trashy Women" if that's what it takes to get you started. Worked for me. :)
You needed a manual telling you how to date trashy women and you live in vegas? HAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!
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live2climb
Oct 15, 2006, 4:50 PM
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1 no
2never
3 nope
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cjsimpso
Oct 15, 2006, 5:52 PM
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The (locally famous) wave boulder at Lincoln woods, RI has this beautiful, angled, slopey crack that you have to lay back and power up to reach the lovely traverse-to-topout jugs. Its a beautiiful problem that goes at a paltry V2/3, thanks to the full, fabricated, four-finger pocket on the inside edge at sit-start height. I'd have never sent this terrific problem without that artificial boost.
And honestly, I wish I never had. Id rather it be desperate, powerful, and natural. I'd rather it had spit me out a dozen times and then some, so I could come back and work it until I finally found the strength to man up and send it. But instead, some frustrated little chipper (who knows how many years ago) took that away. Now when I go back, I work it without that pocket, but the thrill of the first successful send of the beautiful natural line is gone. Sucks.
With that in mind:
NO
NO
NO
PS... even if you own the land, one day, be it 5, 10 or 100 years from now, you won't, and someone will hate you for taking one more little slice of natural beauty and irreversabaly corrupting it. Thanks for nothing.
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david_smithrock
Oct 16, 2006, 5:07 PM
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In reply to: Sorry, one last point. In reply to: And lets not even get into crack climbing! It's hard to find a crack 5.11 or harder that doesn't rely on pin scars. Ever been to Indian Creek? Vedauwoo? South Platt? Fremont Canyon? Etc... That statement shows an obvious ignorance. In most crack climbing areas I have been to what you are saying occassionally exists but it is by FAR the exception and not the rule.
Ever been on a 5.11 crack? Maybe the areas you mentioned don't have as many pin scars as say Yosemite (or Red Rock, Zion, J-Tree, etc, etc.) but it's really common. Either you don't know what to look for or you didn't notice..... ignorance is bliss.
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cracklover
Oct 16, 2006, 6:09 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: Sorry, one last point. In reply to: And lets not even get into crack climbing! It's hard to find a crack 5.11 or harder that doesn't rely on pin scars. Ever been to Indian Creek? Vedauwoo? South Platt? Fremont Canyon? Etc... That statement shows an obvious ignorance. In most crack climbing areas I have been to what you are saying occassionally exists but it is by FAR the exception and not the rule. Ever been on a 5.11 crack? Maybe the areas you mentioned don't have as many pin scars as say Yosemite (or Red Rock, Zion, J-Tree, etc, etc.) but it's really common. Either you don't know what to look for or you didn't notice..... ignorance is bliss.
David, you need to get out more. Speaking of ignorance, yours is showing. You may have climbed longer than I do, but... 5.11 cracks at IC covered in pin scars? Yeah right.
Icemoose, I'm not interested in responding here. I've said all I need to say on this thread back in its last reincarnation. The whole thread was a waste of time the first time. Oh, and I'm on a conference call at work where I mostly need to listen, so no, I'm not stealing from my employer (at the moment).
Here's the most I'll say to this undead subject: Some areas are heavily chipped, some not at all. Some crags you can climb bottom to top, and the lines require very little, others are a nightmare. The only constant is that most users of established crags with guidebooks seem completely clueless about what ethics are in place there.
GO
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david_smithrock
Oct 16, 2006, 6:47 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: Sorry, one last point. In reply to: And lets not even get into crack climbing! It's hard to find a crack 5.11 or harder that doesn't rely on pin scars. Ever been to Indian Creek? Vedauwoo? South Platt? Fremont Canyon? Etc... That statement shows an obvious ignorance. In most crack climbing areas I have been to what you are saying occassionally exists but it is by FAR the exception and not the rule. Ever been on a 5.11 crack? Maybe the areas you mentioned don't have as many pin scars as say Yosemite (or Red Rock, Zion, J-Tree, etc, etc.) but it's really common. Either you don't know what to look for or you didn't notice..... ignorance is bliss. David, you need to get out more. Speaking of ignorance, yours is showing. You may have climbed longer than I do, but... 5.11 cracks at IC covered in pin scars? Yeah right. Icemoose, I'm not interested in responding here. I've said all I need to say on this thread back in its last reincarnation. The whole thread was a waste of time the first time. Oh, and I'm on a conference call at work where I mostly need to listen, so no, I'm not stealing from my employer (at the moment). Here's the most I'll say to this undead subject: Some areas are heavily chipped, some not at all. Some crags you can climb bottom to top, and the lines require very little, others are a nightmare. The only constant is that most users of established crags with guidebooks seem completely clueless about what ethics are in place there. GO
If the number of 5.11 or harder cracks listed in your profile is any indication, I'd say you aren't an authority on the subject I was referring to.
My original post was about Smith. I never said anything about routes in IC being covered in pin scars.
You have a desk job in MA and you're telling me to get out more? :lol:
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azenari
Oct 16, 2006, 7:09 PM
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No to all.
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cracklover
Oct 16, 2006, 9:51 PM
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In reply to: My original post was about Smith. I never said anything about routes in IC being covered in pin scars.
No, but you responded to someone who said IC (among others) was an example of an area that wasn't chipped, by stating that there may not be "as many pin scars... but it's really common." And that he "didn't know what to look for". Hmm, I'm pretty damn sure I know the difference between a scar from a cam tracking out in soft sandstone and a pin scar, but why don't you enlighten us about all the pin scars in IC. I'm not trying to put words in your mouth, just reading what you wrote. If it's not what you meant, cool, just say so, and we can move on. Basically, the fact is that some areas are chipped, some aren't, and there's plenty of area in between. Some sportos would like to believe that all areas are chipped, because it makes the ethical issue go away.
In reply to: You have a desk job in MA and you're telling me to get out more? :lol:
Ouch! You've got me there!
Oh, and no, I haven't climbed that many 5.11 finger cracks. Funny, most of those I've done have been FA's, though. And I can tell you, they weren't chipped!
I can't believe I've been roped into battle on an undead thread. I'm out of here. Any other comments to me should be PMed. Post 'em here and I won't see 'em.
GO
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crackaddict
Oct 16, 2006, 10:18 PM
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1. Gay
2. Really gay
3. In this case. Instead of manufacturing a route by chipping and drilling pockets. Drill a sequence of sleeve anchors,. Then gather up all your favorite plastic holds and make a really outdoor gym route.
Then get a pink leotard and a cape with a big SG on it.
Then you could be the SUPER GAY CLIMBER on a SUPER GAY ROUTE! :lol:
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crackaddict
Oct 16, 2006, 10:19 PM
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1. Gay
2. Really gay
3. In this case. Instead of manufacturing a route by chipping and drilling pockets. Drill a sequence of sleeve anchors,. Then gather up all your favorite plastic holds and make a really outdoor gym route.
Then get a pink leotard and a cape with a big SG on it.
Then you could be the SUPER GAY CLIMBER on a SUPER GAY ROUTE! :lol:
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crackaddict
Oct 16, 2006, 10:23 PM
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1. Gay
2. Really gay
3. In this case. Instead of manufacturing a route by chipping and drilling pockets. Drill a sequence of sleeve anchors,. Then gather up all your favorite plastic holds and make a really COOL outdoor gym route.
Then get a pink leotard and a cape with a big SG on it.
Then you could be the SUPER GAY CLIMBER on a SUPER GAY ROUTE! :lol:
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cjsimpso
Oct 17, 2006, 3:37 AM
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No need to get all preachy in an already worthless thread, but you can check out my thoughts on ignorant /disrespectful comments here.
Thanks.
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chossmonkey
Oct 17, 2006, 12:29 PM
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In reply to: 1. Gay 2. Really gay 3. In this case. Instead of manufacturing a route by chipping and drilling pockets. Drill a sequence of sleeve anchors,. Then gather up all your favorite plastic holds and make a really COOL outdoor gym route. Then get a pink leotard and a cape with a big SG on it. Then you could be the SUPER GAY CLIMBER on a SUPER GAY ROUTE! :lol:
HOLY CRAP!!!
I think you just opened a can of worms you never intended to, x3!!! :shock:
I think the politically correct term would be "French".
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theicemoose
Oct 18, 2006, 3:14 AM
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The "defenders of the faith" are getting broadsided by this assertion that there are no unscarred, put-up-onsight 5.11 (and for that matter 5.12, and so on) cracks out there. I've climbed personally at least a hundred of them in the last three years (red rocks has been good to me). Out this way, pinscarring takes place most commonly on big wall routes that have eventually been freed, often by variations that bypass crumbly, pinned up cracks by way of bolt protected faces, which tend, surprisingly enough, not to be chipped too much, as most of the lametastic chippos can't be bothered to carry a set of draws and a cord up to the trail to Potasi, in fear of putting on weight in their legs; a three hour approach with rack and haulbag is a near-guaranteed chip-free barricade, barring all but the most motivated hangdoggers.
So the holocaust never happened, it's a total rumor. And every route in the world is chipped, because there is a chisel, crowbar, and bosch in the chalkbag of all diehard traditionalist gear climbers intent on having a fun day exploring with friends. And John Gill is 18 feet tall, with six arms and chalk for blood. Does anyone else's version of reality ever intrude on these pipedreams? Until Joe Herbst admits to chipping Straight Shooter (old-school, splitter tips crack 5.9+, put up in 1975, in boots, on passive pro), I think I'm going to come to the logical conclusion that some egomaniacal Boschhounds are out of their skulls, and celebrate well known stellar routes in all corners of the world that stand on their own merits, not fall as a result of someone's inability to accept what is given to all of us, and foolishly botch things up for everyone else that touches that little piece of rock forever after.
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kricir
Oct 18, 2006, 3:29 AM
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1. no
2. no
3. no
Climbing is about finding the lines that will go and man playing by nature’s rules, not the other way around.
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stein_kletterer
Oct 18, 2006, 4:07 AM
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No
No
Yes
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angry
Oct 18, 2006, 4:19 AM
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I climbed FreeBlast in Yosemite this summer. While I was climbing, I was dissappointed at all the piton scars. At the same time I knew very well that I could not have been climbing without those piton scars.
I prefer a route to be pristine. I accept a piton scar here or there as they were put in for pro back in the day, not to change the nature of the route. I will say, if I lived in CA, I would quickly tire of the whole Valley thing. Piton scars are only fun the first 18 locks, after that they make me feel bad.
And to chip a route with the intention of changing it... well, I'm a small guy so I probably can't kick your ass but you're going to have to find out if I catch you chipping.
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edl
Oct 19, 2006, 1:02 AM
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In reply to: Ever been on a 5.11 crack?
Yes, in fact there are a couple around my local crag that I have wired and like to warm up on.
In reply to: Maybe the areas you mentioned don't have as many pin scars as say Yosemite (or Red Rock, Zion, J-Tree, etc, etc.) but it's really common. Either you don't know what to look for or you didn't notice..... ignorance is bliss.
Having been to Yosemite and other places and climbed on them, I know what they generally look like. I have heard storys where people purposely nailed the shit out of a crack for the specific intention of freeing it, so what you are saying does have some merit. And I agree it is chipping when that happens, no different than someone chipping holds in otherwise good rock in order to establish face problems/routes.
In reply to: My original post was about Smith. I never said anything about routes in IC being covered in pin scars.
Funny how you generalized that to 5.11 or harder cracks everywhere. If you hadnt been so general with that statement I wouldn't have spoken up in the first place. What you are talking about may be the norm in places like Smith Rock, Yosemite, etc. but it isn't around here, so your statement doesn't hold. Come find out if you wish. All those places I listed are world class cragging destinations in my opinion, so it is definitely worth a trip.
On another note: Just because people in the past made mistakes, it doesn't mean you need to go repeat those same mistakes. So all you chippers out there, don't use examples of poor ethics in climbings history to justify your own poor ethics, or to dodge criticism from others.
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edl
Oct 19, 2006, 1:04 AM
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In reply to: Ever been on a 5.11 crack?
Yes, in fact there are a couple around my local crag that I have wired and like to warm up on.
In reply to: Maybe the areas you mentioned don't have as many pin scars as say Yosemite (or Red Rock, Zion, J-Tree, etc, etc.) but it's really common. Either you don't know what to look for or you didn't notice..... ignorance is bliss.
Having been to Yosemite and other places and climbed on them, I know what they generally look like. I have heard storys where people purposely nailed the shit out of a crack for the specific intention of freeing it, so what you are saying does have some merit. And I agree it is chipping when that happens, no different than someone chipping holds in order to establish face problems/routes.
In reply to: My original post was about Smith. I never said anything about routes in IC being covered in pin scars.
Funny how you generalized that to 5.11 or harder cracks everywhere. If you hadnt been so general with that statement I wouldn't have spoken up in the first place. What you are talking about may be the norm in places like Smith Rock, Yosemite, etc. but it isn't around here, so your statement doesn't hold. Come find out if you wish. All those places I listed are world class cragging destinations in my opinion, so it is definitely worth a trip.
On another note: Just because people in the past made mistakes, it doesn't mean you need to go repeat those same mistakes. So all you chippers out there, don't use examples of poor ethics in climbings history to justify your own poor ethics, or to dodge criticism from others.
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iching
Oct 24, 2006, 2:13 PM
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Chipping is just another form of aid climbing.
Just like pulling on a quick draw.
In Western Oregon we give these routes an Ac designation and don't list the chippers names in the first ascent info.
If you can't climb the rock on it's own terms you don't deserve the credit :!:
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stonefoxgirl
Oct 24, 2006, 2:51 PM
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The answer is no.
1 Do we need a poll on chipping?
NO
2 Do you know what Leave No Trace means?
NO
3 Should you be considered a climber/enviro/conserv?
NO
SICK!
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cgranite
Oct 27, 2006, 12:54 AM
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In reply to: The answer is no. 1 Do we need a poll on chipping? NO 2 Do you know what Leave No Trace means? NO 3 Should you be considered a climber/enviro/conserv? NO SICK!
1) NEVER
2)NEVER
3)NEVER
And for any other lame excuse for destroying the rock, tainting the rock, or ruining nature...NEVER!
Every piece of rock in the world doesn't need to be climbed. Enjoy them how they are.
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pyrosis
Oct 27, 2006, 2:26 AM
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I think that we should bolt huge plastic jugs onto every piece of rock we can find, especially the Nose! Why let it be reserved for Lynn Hill and Tommie Caldwell? Hell, you could put like three routes on it, all with different color duct tape marking the holds!! That way all the birthday party kiddies from the local gym will be able to climb at it, with a 1000m toprope!
Chipping rock is right on par with pooping on your mom's kitchen floor. IE, you're going straight to hell.
:)
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wallwombat
Oct 27, 2006, 2:52 AM
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No x 3
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fracture
Oct 27, 2006, 3:23 AM
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In reply to: I think that we should bolt huge plastic jugs onto every piece of rock we can find, especially the Nose! Why let it be reserved for Lynn Hill and Tommie Caldwell?
Dude, the free version of the Nose is a chipped route....
:lol:
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mtnfr34k
Oct 27, 2006, 6:46 AM
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Chipping is never acceptable. Never.
NO
NO
NO
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mtnfr34k
Oct 27, 2006, 6:46 AM
Post #260 of 323
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Posts: 184
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Chipping is never acceptable. Never.
NO
NO
NO
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jonoj
Oct 27, 2006, 7:06 AM
Post #261 of 323
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NO NO NO........ No brainer!
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fuzzbait
Oct 27, 2006, 9:03 AM
Post #262 of 323
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In reply to: In reply to: jt512 wrote: In reply to: Most FAists are 5.12 and up climbers, yet most FAists put up a myriad of moderate routes, which involve precisely the sort of alterations we are discussing. They aren't doing it so that they can climb the routes. They're doing it so that you can. Most First Ascensionists (myself included) are motivated by the adventure of climbing something new. Some FAers are motivated to put up the hardest routes they can find so they gain hardman status. I can't imagine any FAer putting up a 5.11 and then dumbing it down to 5.9 as a public service. That's the silliest bit of nonsense I've read in a long time. :lol: Then you're very naive. -Jay
I thought this to be a very interesting point. First I don't think arrow is naive. I think he misunderstood your post.
I also think your post Jay is right on the money.
Speaking from my, admittedly, limited experience all routes I have developed have been in the 5.9 and 5.10 range. I am a 5.12 climber. I have a few lines I will bolt there shortly that are much harder but as of yet....
Also from that of the people around me most of them are developing routes far below their own climbing abilities. Why? I don't know maybe because of location and the availability of easier climbs. Or maybe route setters want the greater number of people to climb their routes of which there are many more 5.10 climbers than 5.11. I don't know.
Arrow I also cannot see anybody taking a 5.11 route and dumbing it down to a 5.9 that just seems very odd to me. Maybe I have not been around to enough different areas yet though.
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fuzzbait
Oct 27, 2006, 9:20 AM
Post #263 of 323
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In reply to: So... what I am hearing from JT512 and others is that not only was Yaniro right (again), but that he ushred in an era where most new routes are chipped? I've opened routes. Outside of choss pile sport climbing cliffs, Jay, I think you are WAY OVERSTATING your case. I don't really care about chipping at places like Jailhouse. But pretending that is the norm 24/7 across this great land is ludicrous. None of the routes I've established are chipped. None of the routes my friends have established are chipped. None of my closest partners would agree that chipping is acceptable. ALL OF THEM have opened new routes and have been climbing for 20 years plus. So I have to call s--- on the 'most routes are chipped and I'm niave to think otherwise.' BULL s---. You guys who promote chipping as if it were the holy grail... you have signed on to Ray Jardine's philisophy that says it would be preferrable to have a 5.10 free route on El Cap even if that means chipping and glue on holds. I'm not prepared to accept that. I'd say most in Yosemite feel the same way. Maybe its just you SoCal sport climbers who have sold out to the chipping devil. The way you speak of it, ALL route developers down there chip. I don't believe you for a minute, but I feel sorry for the state of SoCal climbing if chisel weilding 'developers' are roaming the Monument looking to Michaelangelo new climbs. What a revolting thought. If you restate it to say, hey, this mostly goes down on choss pile sport cliffs, I think I would understand. But most new trad routes, ut uh, chipping would be an abberation, not the norm. You personally are encouraging chipping, with your highly visible stance. You certainly promote it anyway. DMT
I think this post needs to be brought to light again.
I think DMT said it perfectly and I gave him a trophy for it.
I have developed several of my own routes and been on hand for dozens more and none of these routes, not a single one had any chipping, most definitely not gluing, drilling, whatever kind of alteration you want to call it done to the rock.
Yes there is cleaning of course but it is all done with a plastic bristle brush. No wire ones have I ever seen used. Yes loose rocks and blocks have been taken down to make the route safe and secure but not done to intentionally alter the rock to make it go one grade or another.
I am sure there are lots of chipped lines out there and that they are fun to climb on but I don't see the need. If I can't climb it for the first ascent somebody else surely can.
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swede
Oct 27, 2006, 11:01 AM
Post #264 of 323
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Never x 3
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6shooter
Oct 27, 2006, 3:18 PM
Post #265 of 323
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Guess I've heard it all now...
If anyone can convince themselves that chipping rock is OK (anywhere) then you have the imagination to climb in you're garage and think you're on the nose.
Chip a route to you're car go to a movie and leave the rock alone.
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fuzzbait
Oct 28, 2006, 2:08 AM
Post #266 of 323
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In reply to: Around here, the debate is, if a good hold has a sharper than hell edge, wherein you get a mandatory cut (most people most of the time), is it ok to smack it with a nut or a hex and slightly erode the sharpness of the edge? Yes.
Here is another point that is right on the front page that nobody in all 18 pages picked up on. Maybe it is just me but comfortizing equals chipping in my books.
While I can understand where he is coming from I must respectfully disagree with his position on this matter.
The routes I have put up have all been on limestone. Some holds may be considered less than comfortable but it adds to the route. That is what was there so that is what we use.
I went over this in another thread where my partner for one particular route went up to brush a part of the route we just finished bolting. He took out the hammer and started tapping on a ledge. Not smashing down but hard enough. I screamed at him to stop and he stated he was "taking the sharp edge off the hold to make it more comfortable". I quickly dropped him to the ground and wouldn't let him go back up.
If you have a sharp edge (that in no way interferes with the safety of the climber and/or his/her equipment) than you work with it. When climbing you use it delicately and move on.
Eventually rock gets polished after many climbers ascend the route so why speed up this process. Enjoy the route for how it is 'naturally'. If you don't like it move on to the next. Personally I like the sharp edges because I have a tendency to crank on holds instead of feathering them. It forces me to use my feet better.
Anyways for myself and the group of people I know and put up routes with we will never chip, comfortize or modify any route we make. This is how we do things. Everybody has their own way of course this is ours.
(My partner from that particular route learned his lesson after an atomic wedgie. No more comfortizing!)
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metalhead
Oct 28, 2006, 4:27 AM
Post #267 of 323
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Registered: Jul 20, 2006
Posts: 108
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1 no
2 mabey, only in cerntant cases
3 no, thats just stupid
if you cant climb it with out chipping then then dont climb that route, let some one better climb it
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tahoeraised
Oct 28, 2006, 4:42 AM
Post #268 of 323
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Registered: Oct 26, 2006
Posts: 5
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NO
NO
NO
Even if you own the rock, thats lame.
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dirko
Oct 28, 2006, 6:51 AM
Post #269 of 323
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Registered: Dec 5, 2002
Posts: 374
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NO
NO
NO
Where do you get your sense of entitlement? Please... just walk away.
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jsarge
Oct 28, 2006, 12:28 PM
Post #270 of 323
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Registered: Oct 12, 2005
Posts: 18
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No
No
No
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getsomeethics
Oct 28, 2006, 3:09 PM
Post #271 of 323
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Registered: May 2, 2002
Posts: 313
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1 No
2 No
3 No
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getsomeethics
Oct 28, 2006, 3:10 PM
Post #272 of 323
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Registered: May 2, 2002
Posts: 313
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1 No
2 No
3 No
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ateam
Nov 3, 2006, 10:05 PM
Post #273 of 323
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Registered: Sep 16, 2006
Posts: 4
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I'm glad you are so proud of your forum posting skills!
Way to go, El Yea!!!
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andychasteen
Nov 3, 2006, 10:26 PM
Post #274 of 323
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Registered: Jul 21, 2005
Posts: 24
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1. NO
2. NO
3. NO
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fluxus
Nov 3, 2006, 10:39 PM
Post #275 of 323
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In reply to: Yes loose rocks and blocks have been taken down to make the route safe and secure but not done to intentionally alter the rock to make it go one grade or another.
Fuzzbait in both your posts I think you may be making a distinction without a difference. But it does get back to the central question of why might chipping be a bad thing? You seems to be saying that altering the rock is o.k. if its done for safety but that's it. The problem here is that cleaning loose blocks alters the rock and how a climb is done just as much as gluing, comfortizing, cleaning out a crack, sculpting a hold etc.
Some climbing areas have such poor rock that many holds and features of a climb could break off under weight. So cleaning for safety is at times the same thing as creating a climb. I've bolted lines in areas like this, and your distinction simply does not apply. It does not really apply anywhere if the main value is leaving the cliff in a natural state. If the main value isn't leaving the cliff in a more natural state then the entire debate consists of various degrees of philosophical contrivance, which makes it hard to really get an answer. Its more intellectually and historically honest to adknowledge the very important role that chipping has played in climbing (for good and bad) than it is to scream at your partner for comfortizing a hold.
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fuzzbait
Nov 4, 2006, 7:46 AM
Post #276 of 323
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Thank You Fluxus.
When I talk about my ethics of route making I am doing it from a strictly climbing point of view. In other words I am not taking into consideration environmental impacts on the cliff in my arguments. (Now this does not mean I go out there clear cutting and removing every tiny plant on the cliff face. Common sense people no need to elaborate.)
You are correct when you point out that there are no clear cut answers. There is no black and white, no rule book that can be applied. It is up to the individual route maker and governed by the area they are putting routes up in.
In reply to: You seems to be saying that altering the rock is o.k. if its done for safety but that's it.
Yes, this is what I am saying.
In reply to: "The problem here is that cleaning loose blocks alters the rock and how a climb is done just as much as gluing, comfortizing, cleaning out a crack, sculpting a hold etc."
While I completely agree with you that rock is being altered either way I believe you have erred by NOT making a distinction between cleaning of a route and the blatant manufacturing of it. This is where the actual problem lies.
You CANNOT compare cleaning for safety to taking a hammer, drill or any other tool with the intent of altering the rock so that it is more comfortable or enables climbers of lower grades to be able to complete it.
Every route maker should err on the side of doing as little as possible to the rock. Ideally you just go in there find the perfect route place and drill your bolts and climb on. These kind of routes are few and far between though. So you must use your judgement and clean just what is necessary as lightly as is effective. Remove rocks, dirt and debris that are loose and in the way again less is better. Smooth rough edges that may come in contact with rope. Common sense and a minimalist attitude.
In reply to: Fuzzbait in both your posts I think you may be making a distinction without a difference.
I made the distinction in my last posts because I DO feel there is a difference!
Joe
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kalcario
Nov 4, 2006, 8:47 AM
Post #277 of 323
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In reply to: While I completely agree with you that rock is being altered either way I believe you have erred by NOT making a distinction between cleaning of a route and the blatant manufacturing of it. This is where the actual problem lies. You CANNOT compare cleaning for safety to taking a hammer, drill or any other tool with the intent of altering the rock so that it is more comfortable or enables climbers of lower grades to be able to complete it. I made the distinction in my last posts because I DO feel there is a difference! Joe
So when you glue/reinforce features instead of cleaning them off, doesn't that make the route easier, not harder? And isn't gluing/reinforcing blatant manufacturing, too?
And you seem to be implying that blank choss should be left alone so that better climbers can try harder sequences later. But harder sequences means smaller holds, and on bad quality rock, the smaller holds simply break off, leaving nothing. Go try it for yourself - find some choss, grab some little edges, and start yanking. It's sika and drilled pockets, or keep driving.
The simple reality is that there is nothing wrong with taking a previously unclimbed, otherwise worthless pile of rock, where nobody else ever goes or has reason to, and turning it into an outdoor gym, and this is the situation where the vast majority of route manufacturing takes place, and that there are plenty of crags to go to where nothing of the sort occurs, and if you don't like manufactured routes, don't go where they are.
Most developers of choss are grizzled veterans, not beginning/intermediate level climbers like most of the people on this thread (and site). Decades of climbing experience (hopefully) teaches you that rocks are, in fact, inanimate objects, without emotions or feelings, that cannot be "hurt" in the same sense as a person or a puppy. You should all get together and start some sort of crusade against granite counter-tops, or road cuts, or something along those lines, if you are so concerned with this hurting-the-rock issue.
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fuzzbait
Nov 6, 2006, 1:34 AM
Post #278 of 323
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In reply to: rocks are, in fact, inanimate objects, without emotions or feelings, that cannot be "hurt" in the same sense as a person or a puppy. You should all get together and start some sort of crusade against granite counter-tops, or road cuts, or something along those lines, if you are so concerned with this hurting-the-rock issue.
Where in my or anybody elses post did you get the notion that we are some sort of hippie rock huggers? (No offense to hippies you guys are great :D .) This point you make about emotions and feelings for the rock is baseless and ridiculous! You are so off the mark!
In reply to: So when you glue/reinforce features instead of cleaning them off, doesn't that make the route easier, not harder? And isn't gluing/reinforcing blatant manufacturing, too?
Again kalcario I will state it comes down to common sense. There is no black and white. Use your best judgment when deciding how you will make your routes. If you think gluing back a hold or reinforcing one that looks like it will pop off is the only option available then......
Of all the routes I have done I have never ran into this kinda situation. Of the several dozen I have assisted or watched this has never happened. I know it does happen so when something like that comes up make the best choice for the future of the route. I am more referring to drilling holds, making existing ones bigger and especially comfortizing holds.
In reply to: And you seem to be implying that blank choss should be left alone so that better climbers can try harder sequences later. But harder sequences means smaller holds, and on bad quality rock, the smaller holds simply break off, leaving nothing. Go try it for yourself - find some choss, grab some little edges, and start yanking. It's sika and drilled pockets, or keep driving.
This reminds me of the "What if...." questions I always used to bug my public school teachers with.
You are missing the point kalcario.
In reply to: The simple reality is that there is nothing wrong with taking a previously unclimbed, otherwise worthless pile of rock, where nobody else ever goes or has reason to, and turning it into an outdoor gym, and this is the situation where the vast majority of route manufacturing takes place, and that there are plenty of crags to go to where nothing of the sort occurs, and if you don't like manufactured routes, don't go where they are.
In reply to: Most developers of choss are grizzled veterans, not beginning/intermediate level climbers like most of the people on this thread (and site). Decades of climbing experience (hopefully) teaches [them].
Look my feeling is we need to have a strong stance Against chipping, drilling, sculpting, gluing, and/or comfortizing. However, realizing that there are situations that it may be necessary. For every rule there are always exceptions.
As you said most people on here are beginners who are here looking for advice. We need to be firm in our positions that this kind of practice is not the norm. That it is not acceptable. Manufacturing routes is not the way to go.
Grizzled veterans developing choss? This is another issue. Would I do it? No. I am not nearly that experienced (and may never be).
Common Sense, Minimalist attitude. Enough said. Done.
Joe
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kalcario
Nov 6, 2006, 2:20 AM
Post #279 of 323
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In reply to: Look my feeling is we need to have a strong stance Against chipping, drilling, sculpting, gluing, and/or comfortizing. However, realizing that there are situations that it may be necessary. For every rule there are always exceptions.
If that's a strong stance, what would a weak stance be?
In reply to: As you said most people on here are beginners who are here looking for advice. We need to be firm in our positions that this kind of practice is not the norm.
Yes you're right...we need to be firm in our position that it's not the norm, except in situations where it may be necessary.
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rendog
Jan 13, 2007, 9:37 PM
Post #280 of 323
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Posts: 2468
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[quote "fanederhand"]DXXX no to all of the above.[/quote]
word
and if i see someone chipping I will hurl rocks at them until they fall, run up cut the rope then drive their chisel into the heart[mad]
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fer2706
Dec 24, 2008, 1:42 AM
Post #281 of 323
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Posts: 3
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1- No
2- No
3- No
In my personal opinion chipping isn't accepted on any situation. Climbing is about improving your skills and strength, If you cannot send the route then look for something easier.
In my local climb zone we use to have a 5.14+ route, a spanish dumb ass came and chip holds to it downgrading it to 5.13a 
Chipping is not climbing!
Peace 
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coolcat83
Dec 24, 2008, 4:45 AM
Post #282 of 323
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Posts: 1007
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no
no
no
if you want an artificial route go to a gym.
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getsomeethics
Dec 24, 2008, 4:54 AM
Post #283 of 323
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no to all 3.
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spikeddem
Dec 24, 2008, 6:01 AM
Post #284 of 323
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fer2706 wrote: In my local climb zone we use to have a 5.14+ route, a spanish dumb ass came and chip holds to it . . .
Now when Spaniards ask me to substantiate my racism I have some proof! Thanks for sharing that relevant fact!
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scottydo
Dec 24, 2008, 7:19 AM
Post #285 of 323
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Posts: 121
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While I could see someone justifying these scenarios to themselves, I would have to say "No" to all 3.
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drunkenmaster
Dec 24, 2008, 8:55 AM
Post #286 of 323
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Registered: Oct 23, 2002
Posts: 18
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THE ANSWER IS ABSOLUTELY NO TO ALL 3 - I CANT BELIEVE THIS IS EVEN A QUESTION ANYMORE. THIS IS THE LAMEST THREAD IVE EVER READ. WHOEVER STARTED THIS THREAD AND ANYONE WHO ANSWERED YES TO ANY OF THESE IS PATHETIC AND WEAK MINDED. THERE IS NEVER A NEED TO CHIP OR DRILL - IT IS FAKE AND WITHOUT A TRAINED EYE YOU NEVER CAN TELL IF EVEN A BLANK WALL MIGHT HAVE A ROUTE THAT WEAVES AROUND FEATURES THAT YOU CANT SEE OR WOULDNT CONSIDER HOLDS UNLESS YOU HAVE PUT UP PLENTY OF NATURAL FIRST ASCENTS AND CLIMB/BOULDER ON REAL ROCK ALOT. BUILD A CLIMBING WALL, GO BOULDERING, LEARN. ONE MOVE WONDERS ARE NOT A BAD THING. I PUT UP MY HARDEST FIRST ASCENT EVER (Judge Dredd 5.13B) FOR TWO REASONS - BECAUSE 1- IT LOOKED RAD AND 2- TO SHOW THAT YOU DONT NEED TO CHIP/DRILLL. THE ORIGINAL ROUTE ON THE WALL WAS CALLED "Jury Duty" 5.13c AND IT HAD A DRILLED POCKET WHICH FILLED IN A BLANK SPOT ON THE WALL. I RAPPELLED DOWN AND WITH A FEW WHACKS OF MY HAMMER TO REMOVE A COUPLE LOOSE PLATES I HAD SOME HOLDS TO GRAB AND A ROUTE EVEN EASIER THAN THE ORIGINAL. IT ONLY TOOK ME A FEW MINUTES MORE THAN THE FAKE HOLE DRILLER WHO MUST HAVE BEEN IN A HURRY. ANOTHER FAKE LOCAL ROUTE IS THE "Beach Arete" 5.13c AT MICKEYS BEACH WHICH A FEW YEARS AFTER IT WAS CHIPPED WENT NATURAL BY MY BUDDY KEVIN JORGESON WHO RATED IT A 5.13D/5.14A WITHOUT THE FAKE POCKET - NOT MUCH HARDER THAN THE ORIGINAL FAKE ROUTE AND NOT HARD AT ALL BY TODAYS STANDARDS. IF THE GUY WHO DRILLED IT HAD DECIDED TO DRILL A FEW MORE HOLES HE MIGHT HAVE RUINED THE NATURAL HOLDS KEVIN FOUND AND RUINED A GREAT NATURAL LINE. CHIPPING AND DRILLING RUINS CLIMBS FOR FUTURE GENERATIONS, CAUSES ACCESS ISSUES AND IS UGLY AND FAKE. IT IS SELFISH AND ME ME ME NOW NOW NOW - IT IS EVERYTHING THAT IS BAD ABOUT AMERICAN CULTURE. IT IS DISGRACEFUL AND DISPICABLE. I DONT GET WHAT YOU ARE TRYING TO ACCOMPLISH WITH THIS STUPID POLL - YOURE ASKING A BUNCH OF NIEVE INTERNET NEWBIES LIKE YOURSELF WHAT THEY THINK? IT MAKES NO SENSE - WHAT IF EVERYONE ON RC.COM SAYS YES LETS CHIP - WILL THAT MAKE IT O.K.? - IF YOU LOOK AT WHAT EXPERIENCED CLIMBERS SAY - YOU WILL SEE THAT THEY SAY IT IS NOT O.K. TO CHIP - EVER. IF I EVER SEE OR EVEN HEAR ABOUT ANYONE CHIPPING OR DRILLING ON MY LOCAL ROCKS I WILL TREAT THEM LIKE A GRAFFITI VANDAL OR WORSE AND - WELL JUST LOOK OUT. I HOPE THAT YOU WILL ALL DO THE SAME. GET A FRKN CLUE. CLIMBING IS NOT ABOUT PUTTING UP ROUTES - IT IS ABOUT CLIMBING ROCKS AND ACCEPTING THE CHALLENGES THAT MOTHER NATURE GAVE US - I THINK THAT YOU MIGHT BE BETTER AT SPORTS WITH LITTLE BOUNCY BALLS BECAUSE YOU OBVIOULSY HAVE NO BALLS OF YOUR OWN.
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jt512
Dec 24, 2008, 9:56 AM
Post #287 of 323
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drunkenmaster wrote: THE ANSWER IS ABSOLUTELY NO TO ALL 3 - I CANT BELIEVE THIS IS EVEN A QUESTION ANYMORE. THIS IS THE LAMEST THREAD IVE EVER READ. WHOEVER STARTED THIS THREAD AND ANYONE WHO ANSWERED YES TO ANY OF THESE IS PATHETIC AND WEAK MINDED. THERE IS NEVER A NEED TO CHIP OR DRILL - IT IS FAKE AND WITHOUT A TRAINED EYE YOU NEVER CAN TELL IF EVEN A BLANK WALL MIGHT HAVE A ROUTE THAT WEAVES AROUND FEATURES THAT YOU CANT SEE OR WOULDNT CONSIDER HOLDS UNLESS YOU HAVE PUT UP PLENTY OF NATURAL FIRST ASCENTS AND CLIMB/BOULDER ON REAL ROCK ALOT. BUILD A CLIMBING WALL, GO BOULDERING, LEARN. ONE MOVE WONDERS ARE NOT A BAD THING. I PUT UP MY HARDEST FIRST ASCENT EVER (Judge Dredd 5.13B) FOR TWO REASONS - BECAUSE 1- IT LOOKED RAD AND 2- TO SHOW THAT YOU DONT NEED TO CHIP/DRILLL. THE ORIGINAL ROUTE ON THE WALL WAS CALLED "Jury Duty" 5.13c AND IT HAD A DRILLED POCKET WHICH FILLED IN A BLANK SPOT ON THE WALL. I RAPPELLED DOWN AND WITH A FEW WHACKS OF MY HAMMER TO REMOVE A COUPLE LOOSE PLATES I HAD SOME HOLDS TO GRAB AND A ROUTE EVEN EASIER THAN THE ORIGINAL. IT ONLY TOOK ME A FEW MINUTES MORE THAN THE FAKE HOLE DRILLER WHO MUST HAVE BEEN IN A HURRY. ANOTHER FAKE LOCAL ROUTE IS THE "Beach Arete" 5.13c AT MICKEYS BEACH WHICH A FEW YEARS AFTER IT WAS CHIPPED WENT NATURAL BY MY BUDDY KEVIN JORGESON WHO RATED IT A 5.13D/5.14A WITHOUT THE FAKE POCKET - NOT MUCH HARDER THAN THE ORIGINAL FAKE ROUTE AND NOT HARD AT ALL BY TODAYS STANDARDS. IF THE GUY WHO DRILLED IT HAD DECIDED TO DRILL A FEW MORE HOLES HE MIGHT HAVE RUINED THE NATURAL HOLDS KEVIN FOUND AND RUINED A GREAT NATURAL LINE. CHIPPING AND DRILLING RUINS CLIMBS FOR FUTURE GENERATIONS, CAUSES ACCESS ISSUES AND IS UGLY AND FAKE. IT IS SELFISH AND ME ME ME NOW NOW NOW - IT IS EVERYTHING THAT IS BAD ABOUT AMERICAN CULTURE. IT IS DISGRACEFUL AND DISPICABLE. I DONT GET WHAT YOU ARE TRYING TO ACCOMPLISH WITH THIS STUPID POLL - YOURE ASKING A BUNCH OF NIEVE INTERNET NEWBIES LIKE YOURSELF WHAT THEY THINK? IT MAKES NO SENSE - WHAT IF EVERYONE ON RC.COM SAYS YES LETS CHIP - WILL THAT MAKE IT O.K.? - IF YOU LOOK AT WHAT EXPERIENCED CLIMBERS SAY - YOU WILL SEE THAT THEY SAY IT IS NOT O.K. TO CHIP - EVER. IF I EVER SEE OR EVEN HEAR ABOUT ANYONE CHIPPING OR DRILLING ON MY LOCAL ROCKS I WILL TREAT THEM LIKE A GRAFFITI VANDAL OR WORSE AND - WELL JUST LOOK OUT. I HOPE THAT YOU WILL ALL DO THE SAME. GET A FRKN CLUE. CLIMBING IS NOT ABOUT PUTTING UP ROUTES - IT IS ABOUT CLIMBING ROCKS AND ACCEPTING THE CHALLENGES THAT MOTHER NATURE GAVE US - I THINK THAT YOU MIGHT BE BETTER AT SPORTS WITH LITTLE BOUNCY BALLS BECAUSE YOU OBVIOULSY HAVE NO BALLS OF YOUR OWN.
YOU ARE CLEARLY A SERIOUS CLIMBER. THANK YOU FOR YOUR CLEARLY SERIOUS OPINION.
JAY
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dingus
Dec 24, 2008, 12:03 PM
Post #288 of 323
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Thread resurrection of the week,
Nonono.
DMT
fer2706 wrote: 1- No 2- No 3- No In my personal opinion chipping isn't accepted on any situation. Climbing is about improving your skills and strength, If you cannot send the route then look for something easier. In my local climb zone we use to have a 5.14+ route, a spanish dumb ass came and chip holds to it downgrading it to 5.13a Chipping is not climbing! Peace |
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jimo
Dec 24, 2008, 12:35 PM
Post #289 of 323
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Posts: 79
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dingus wrote: Thread resurrection of the week, Nonono. DMT
Shouldn't there be a statute of limitation on thread resurrection? Soon we'll see the resurfacing of issues like: Should climbs be graded above 5.10...
Just sayin'
Merry Christmas!
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mike_devildog
Dec 24, 2008, 2:37 PM
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No to all 3..unbelievable..that climbers even remotely consider chipping..blows my mind!
Eventually humans will be able to scale completely blank vertical walls, with just our sticky scientific rubber, and brute tendon strength!! Peace!
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Gmburns2000
Dec 24, 2008, 3:18 PM
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jimo wrote: dingus wrote: Thread resurrection of the week, Nonono. DMT Shouldn't there be a statute of limitation on thread resurrection? Soon we'll see the resurfacing of issues like: Should climbs be graded above 5.10... Just sayin' Merry Christmas!
NO!
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jt512
Dec 24, 2008, 5:24 PM
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% of respondents answering "no no no": 95%
% of above who should have responded: "I'm an ignorant 'noob noob noob'": 100%
% of above who ignored the realistic responses posted by actual route developers: 100%
% of above regularly climb on manufactured holds and are utterly oblivious to it: 100%
Jay
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caughtinside
Dec 24, 2008, 5:32 PM
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drunkenmaster wrote: I RAPPELLED DOWN AND WITH A FEW WHACKS OF MY HAMMER TO REMOVE A COUPLE LOOSE PLATES I HAD SOME HOLDS TO GRAB AND A ROUTE EVEN EASIER THAN THE ORIGINAL.
YOU SIR ARE A HEINOUS BALL-LESS RAP BOLTER AND A CHIPPER TO BOOT. CALLING IT AGGRESSIVE CLEANING DOESN'T MEAN IT IS NOT CHIPPING. LEAVE YOUR HAMMER AT HOME. CLEAN CLIMBING IS WHERE IT'S AT. PLEASE DON'T HIT OUR ROCKS WITH YOUR HAMMER BECAUSE YOU ARE A FAT AND WEAK.
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dingus
Dec 24, 2008, 5:47 PM
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jt512 wrote: % of respondents answering "no no no": 95% % of above who should have responded: "I'm an ignorant 'noob noob noob'": 100% % of above who ignored the realistic responses posted by actual route developers: 100% % of above regularly climb on manufactured holds and are utterly oblivious to it: 100% Jay
Hah! I'm above you all, VonLumpHausen.
I know all too well the little ethical DimeBags yall sell to get yer fixes hahahahahahahaha!
All sport routes are chipped, that's the dirty little secret.
I still say, given the context of the offered choices nonono.
Now feel free to qualify.
DMT
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Hennessey
Dec 24, 2008, 6:32 PM
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Chipping is like the equivelant to shooting a cop.
IT SHOULD BE PUNISHABLE BY DEATH
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coolcat83
Dec 24, 2008, 8:56 PM
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jt512 wrote: % of respondents answering "no no no": 95% % of above who should have responded: "I'm an ignorant 'noob noob noob'": 100% % of above who ignored the realistic responses posted by actual route developers: 100% % of above regularly climb on manufactured holds and are utterly oblivious to it: 100% Jay
so you support chipping? i sure can't climb the nose, but hell i'll just turn it into a jug haul? where do you place the line between developing and manufacturing? and who gives you or anyone else the right to do so?
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spikeddem
Dec 24, 2008, 9:11 PM
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coolcat83 wrote: jt512 wrote: % of respondents answering "no no no": 95% % of above who should have responded: "I'm an ignorant 'noob noob noob'": 100% % of above who ignored the realistic responses posted by actual route developers: 100% % of above regularly climb on manufactured holds and are utterly oblivious to it: 100% Jay so you support chipping? i sure can't climb the nose, but hell i'll just turn it into a jug haul? where do you place the line between developing and manufacturing? and who gives you or anyone else the right to do so?
It looks to me like he's just spelling out the facts.
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j_ung
Dec 24, 2008, 9:21 PM
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Moved to General, so as not to interrupt the flow of this fine, upstanding thread. Happy holidays!
--Head Librarian.
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IclimbNAKED
Dec 24, 2008, 9:36 PM
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No, no, and no.
I will echo what many have already said, and what is my personal belief, if you can't climb it, then don't.
Advancements in climbing technique and strength of the top climbers may one day result in something that was deemed completely unclimbable being climbed. Chipping just ruins it all.
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overlord
Dec 24, 2008, 9:40 PM
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come on, this has been laid to rest. unless theres a big flake threatening to fall on someone, chipping is not acceptable ;)
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Maddhatter
Dec 25, 2008, 12:38 AM
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Chipping is great!!!
Just make sure you tell all the other climbers that use the area what you are doing, where you are doing it and what time. I'm 100% sure this will all get worked out. 
TRUST ME. 
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drunkenmaster
Dec 25, 2008, 2:43 AM
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caughtinside is a hipocrit. and is obviously the fat weak ball-less pussy that knows nothing about cleaning loose rock from a route. if you want to talk smack to me you - do it to my face - but youd better be ready for what will come after. i admit it was "aggressive cleaning" but that is how routes get put up on less than perfect rock - he should know that - he has climbed at dtsa and auburn. those routes had things broken off all over them not just a few plates that were hollow and would have broke off after a few pulls on them but almost every hold. i think he might have even helped put up some of those routes. they are choss. just like his brain. caughtinside: you can find me on my website - send me a personal email - i will meet you sometime and school you in person. most climbers have agreed with me that chipping and drilling is over the line of what is acceptable - aggresive cleaning is not.
*merry xmas - to all.
(This post was edited by drunkenmaster on Dec 25, 2008, 4:07 AM)
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zeke_sf
Dec 25, 2008, 6:31 AM
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Yeah, you're right that Caughtinside has put up some chossass choss lines. But what are you going to do? It's the Bay Area, home of only fat weak ball-less pussy-asses who still think it's junior high and meeting after school at the ball field to open-hand slap each other in the mudflaps is the solution to a debate. Or maybe they'll just shove each other in the chest WHILE YELLING AT EACH OTHER ON THE INTERWEBS? Either way, you two douchenozzles can guzzle some recycled holiday ale straight from my jizz dispenser. MERRY XMAS!!!
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caughtinside
Dec 25, 2008, 7:52 AM
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Chris you are a silly illiterate wanker and I love you man!!! Keep drinking smoking and cranking in 09!!! It was a joke!!
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tombvortx
Dec 25, 2008, 11:02 PM
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no in all three cases
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drunkenmaster
Dec 26, 2008, 2:18 AM
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right on - i just came on here to be nice also being its xmas but you frkn beat me to it. now lets talk crap to this zeke geak - just kidding. i thought we had gotten over all that crap talking along time ago anyway - i even noticed roughster and i sort of trying to get along awhile back - that might be good. very glad you were the bigger man before i had to be. i have a hard time taking jokes from someone i dont know - or have we met? either way now when we see each other - beers are on me! i have a broken leg right now and am a little more bummed and grumpy than usual. i hope this thread dies a quick death now that we all agree chipping is lame. i shouldnt have called the thread starter ball-less since he didnt know any better. but all who said yes - please learn a lesson from the majority. anyway - MERRY FRKN XMAS TO ALL!
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saxfiend
Dec 26, 2008, 4:29 AM
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dingus wrote: jt512 wrote: % of respondents answering "no no no": 95% % of above who should have responded: "I'm an ignorant 'noob noob noob'": 100% % of above who ignored the realistic responses posted by actual route developers: 100% % of above regularly climb on manufactured holds and are utterly oblivious to it: 100% Jay Hah! I'm above you all, VonLumpHausen. I know all too well the little ethical DimeBags yall sell to get yer fixes hahahahahahahaha! All sport routes are chipped, that's the dirty little secret. I still say, given the context of the offered choices nonono. Now feel free to qualify. DMT
What's the best shoe for climbing on chipped routes? I did a search but couldn't find the answer to this important question.
JL
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drucilla
Dec 28, 2008, 4:05 AM
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no, no, prolly not.
but...
gotta consider proximity to developed climbing, though. a batshit-splattered cave behind somebodys garage in ohio might be a great training tool for locals- why let it go unutilized if youre deperate for realestate.
also- quarries are acceptable chipperies...
and now for the puritanical response.......
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suilenroc
Dec 28, 2008, 4:29 AM
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No way was I going to read this entire thread. In fact, I couldn't even make it through the O.P... Where the feck is the poll?
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waltersiebert
Dec 29, 2008, 1:21 AM
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In Arco (Lake Garda, Northern Italy) is a nice 4-pitch-route, about 5.6, with 1 crux 5.10. There are many many routes 5.10, but only very few 5.6. Somebody drilled a hole and put 1 artificial handhold in. This route was now a great route 5.6. with one 5.7 crux and many people could climb it. One day the handhold was gone and from now many many parties have to retreat 3 pitches.
I think it was a good idea to put the handhold in. Hundreds of people had a great experience, now they have only 2 routes in this area which they can climb. No climbers who are able to climb 5.10 are interested in this route, it is very boring for them, and has just 1 difficult move. Chipping is just the wrong solution. Why not put in handholds?
So: 1.. No
2. yes
3. No
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Maddhatter
Dec 29, 2008, 1:33 AM
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waltersiebert wrote: In Arco (Lake Garda, Northern Italy) is a nice 4-pitch-route, about 5.6, with 1 crux 5.10. There are many many routes 5.10, but only very few 5.6. Somebody drilled a hole and put 1 artificial handhold in. This route was now a great route 5.6. with one 5.7 crux and many people could climb it. One day the handhold was gone and from now many many parties have to retreat 3 pitches. I think it was a good idea to put the handhold in. Hundreds of people had a great experience, now they have only 2 routes in this area which they can climb. No climbers who are able to climb 5.10 are interested in this route, it is very boring for them, and has just 1 difficult move. Chipping is just the wrong solution. Why not put in handholds? So: 1.. No 2. yes 3. No
Sounds like a great easy first 5.10 to me. Shame some dick couldn't climb it so they put a hold in and ruined the line for others.
IF!!! All in the area say it's ok then fine. If not it will be chopped every time. Why not add holds to all the 5.10's I'm sure there are more people that can climb 5.7 then 5.10.
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zeke_sf
Dec 29, 2008, 7:10 AM
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Maddhatter wrote: waltersiebert wrote: In Arco (Lake Garda, Northern Italy) is a nice 4-pitch-route, about 5.6, with 1 crux 5.10. There are many many routes 5.10, but only very few 5.6. Somebody drilled a hole and put 1 artificial handhold in. This route was now a great route 5.6. with one 5.7 crux and many people could climb it. One day the handhold was gone and from now many many parties have to retreat 3 pitches. I think it was a good idea to put the handhold in. Hundreds of people had a great experience, now they have only 2 routes in this area which they can climb. No climbers who are able to climb 5.10 are interested in this route, it is very boring for them, and has just 1 difficult move. Chipping is just the wrong solution. Why not put in handholds? So: 1.. No 2. yes 3. No Sounds like a great easy first 5.10 to me. Shame some dick couldn't climb it so they put a hold in and ruined the line for others. IF!!! All in the area say it's ok then fine. If not it will be chopped every time. Why not add holds to all the 5.10's I'm sure there are more people that can climb 5.7 then 5.10.
The hold bolted into the wall is a bit cheesy but it got me thinking about a climb like Royal Arches in Yosemite whose fixed line (for the famed pendulum) is a longstanding tradition, keeping a largely 5.7 line at that moderate grade rather than the 5.9/10 grade it would otherwise garner. I can see Walter's point that it's pretty cool to have a moderate line that is 99.99% one grade remain accessible at that grade. Then again, I think Royal Arches has the fixed line more as tradition (wasn't that how the FA put it up?) as well as safety, whereas more moderate leaders should be able to yard through a move on a bolt if they can't pull the move. The irony is the roped aid point probably remains because the climbers who would chop the tat appreciate not having to pull those moves when they solo RA.
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roghman
Dec 29, 2008, 7:28 AM
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No to all three, p;ain and simple.
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Maddhatter
Dec 29, 2008, 7:54 AM
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It's not about one hold for me. Yes the first guy puts in one small hold, Mr.Joe blow sees it and goes "hey that's cool let's put one over here to" and in a few years, it's huge pink buckets with flashing lights. But there climbable and every one can do them. You have to draw a line.
Don't change the rock unless you have to in order to get pro. There are a lot of lines that with one move on aid it changes the over all rating. Corkscrew comes to mind, 5.11 or aid on one bolt and it's 5.9. Classic line if ever there was. Paint your hangers!! Don't rap huge amounts of pink webbing around trees everyone can see!! And never bolt shit to the rock other then pro. Would I chop it? I have done enough road tripping to know different places different rules.
I'm just not a chopper. It does more harm then good to the rock.
(This post was edited by Maddhatter on Dec 29, 2008, 8:11 AM)
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dingus
Dec 29, 2008, 1:44 PM
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The Arco example is specific enough for me to say, sure, in that specific instance, the bolt-on hold doesn't strike me as particularly aggregious.
I'm curious about the Italiano climbing scene, perhaps you could shed some light....
here in America, so long as its public land and 'fixed pro' is allowed, ANYONE can place a bolt. Anyone at all.
And too, anyone else can remove that bolt, at will. There are very, very few regulatory authorities that are involved or are willing to get involved and many of us don't want them involved anyway. No good can come fron democratic route policing, none whatsoever.
So we have here (particularly in the American west) an old Wild West scene where the good intentions of each climber are the only real law in town. And the vigilantte ever holds the hammer in mute threat to chop the living shit out of bolts that violate an area's norms.
The one principle that still holds considerable sway here is the 'first ascent.' We don't cotton (for the most part - sport climbing is different) to subsequent parties physically altering an already established route unless there is considerable community pressure to do so. Even then, in some areas mods still would not be tolerated, no matter what. In others premission to muck with the route should be sought from the FA party.
Now it sounds from your post that Arco is similar in some respects - if a climber is free to place a bolt (or a hold) another climber is free to remove it.
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zeke_sf
Dec 29, 2008, 2:24 PM
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Maddhatter wrote: It's not about one hold for me. Yes the first guy puts in one small hold, Mr.Joe blow sees it and goes "hey that's cool let's put one over here to" and in a few years, it's huge pink buckets with flashing lights. But there climbable and every one can do them. You have to draw a line.
That's a well-greased slope you just described. It sounds like the local ethic there is close enough to yours though. I thought it's an interesting point Walter made because I could see either side of the argument (a rarity for me). Then again, I wouldn't want to be the guy whose crag is that one with the hold bolted on...
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jt512
Dec 29, 2008, 5:09 PM
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dingus wrote: The one principle that still holds considerable sway here is the 'first ascent.' We don't cotton (for the most part - sport climbing is different) to subsequent parties physically altering an already established route...
Sport climbing is no different. Once the route is up, it's not to be altered. An exception is when the original route was botched, then—maybe—adding or moving bolts around will be acceptable. But changing any holds on established route is thought of as vandalism by practically every climber I know.
Jay
(This post was edited by jt512 on Dec 29, 2008, 5:14 PM)
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Alphaboth
Dec 29, 2008, 6:44 PM
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It's interesting to analyze the climbers philosophy on the ethics of climbing. Frankly i'm more concerned about my climbing than rock conservation when I'm climbing. If you want to be environmentally concious, pick up your trash, walk or run to the crag, and buy biodegradable cams. Chipping away pieces of a rock may take away from the purity of the sport, but rarely takes away from the beauty of a place. I have no problem climbing a route that was chipped. It's climbing, that's what I like, don't care if it's made made or natural, it's there and it's real, and it's there to climb. In fact I would like to go to a place that was entirely blank rock intially and people have chipped the hell out of it to make a shitload of routes, that'd be sweet, people aren't concerned about climbing natural lines, they just want to climb, it creates a good atomosphere. Having said that there are places not to chip, and it's not cool when people do.
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jeepnphreak
Dec 29, 2008, 7:30 PM
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1. NO if he can't climb it that don't put the rout there.
2. NO rank it at the crux, if it an 11 that rate it so. no need to bring it down to a 5.10.
3. NO on several means. 1 bats inhabit the area, you may be violating habitat of a protected species. and if there are people even the occasional hiker, respect them too. No need to be manufacturing a wall just so a few can climb it. This sound like a good way to start pissing people off and getting climbing areas close to the public. Go some were else.
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roughster
Dec 29, 2008, 7:55 PM
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This thread is what we like to call at work "Atta Boy!" Emails. You know the kind where some Department Head sends an email saying, "Blah blah we accomplished blah blah" and invariable 10-20 emails will follow ranging from "Good Job" to, "I want to feel your balls bouncing on my chin!"
Most of the replies in this thread are of the "I want to feel your balls bouncing on my chin!" variety. It's a crude analogy but, sorry to say it, spot on.
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waltersiebert
Dec 30, 2008, 12:09 AM
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Arco is a community which focuses on outdoor/recreation sports. They established mountainbike routs as well as climbing crags. You find very well bolted beginners and sports climbing areas as well as real adventure big walls (very very rarely repeated if at all).
This route with the one handhold (I think it broke, was not chopped) fits perfectly to this area with lack of multi-pitch easy routs.
There are no clear rules and no authority, I think. Its the local climbers and guides community who cares for the bolts, financed by the community of Arco.
On the Collodri (300m wall behind the campground) you find some bolts but you need a complete rack.
You have a great variety of style in Arco. This is great.
I would really appreciate if somebody builds a 5.7 climb through the collodri. 10 pitches vertical ... would be great fun for many people.
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zeke_sf
Dec 30, 2008, 4:06 PM
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roughster wrote: This thread is what we like to call at work "Atta Boy!" Emails. You know the kind where some Department Head sends an email saying, "Blah blah we accomplished blah blah" and invariable 10-20 emails will follow ranging from "Good Job" to, "I want to feel your balls bouncing on my chin!" Most of the replies in this thread are of the "I want to feel your balls bouncing on my chin!" variety. It's a crude analogy but, sorry to say it, spot on.
It's a crude analogy but you sound like the kind of guy who likes the feeling of balls bouncing off his taint.
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DownstairsB
Feb 22, 2013, 8:06 PM
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1. No
2. Yes in some areas this might be acceptable
3. Only if they own the land. However it would still not be as fun as a natural climb.
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