I think we're one of the most environmentally damaging user groups out there.

Oh yeah, cause all those golfers, off roaders, power boaters, hunters, skiers, bus loads of tourists, BBQing red necks etc. are frigging wonderful for the environment. Shame on us, we should definately learn from these groups :P.

-JP

...If you can't at least respect the environment, then just stay in the frigging gym and stop causing access problems for the climbers who know what they have.

I'm not talking about prancing around every woodland flower as if it's sacred, or being afraid to walk down a trail in case you erode it. Try to create the least impact you can and be aware of how other users see climbers and you go a long way to protecting our climbing areas.

Oh yeah, cause all those golfers, off roaders, power boaters, hunters, skiers, bus loads of tourists, BBQing red necks etc. are frigging wonderful for the environment. Shame on us, we should definately learn from these groups :P.

-JP

Hunters actually are a group that give back to the environment. They create habitat in places where the habitat is dwindling. They keep down populations of animals that have been concentrated due to the sprawl of human development. E.G. too large of a concentration of deer leads to starvation and inbreeding, which leads to weaker animals that are suseptible to disease.

I honestly don't see how one can be a climber and NOT care about the environment... which leads me to wonder why there aren't more Adopt-a-Crags being done and more climbers participating in them, but that's a whole 'nother can of worms....

In a since its like there are three types of "environmental abusers". Its impossible not to have an impact on the environment, its just a matter of how much/how little and what your motives are I think.

The first is the group who genuinely loves and appreciates the esoteric values of the environment. They love being in it, using it, making a conscious effort to protect it, but still want to have some fun. I believe most rock climbers tend to fit in this category. ( Tend to = room for fluff). The second type of group I think would be the people who love the outdoors but treat it badly. People who leave crap everywhere, and are flat out disrespectful to their surroundings. They reek the benefit but don't give anything back. And then there is the third type that doesn't like the environment at all. They see its value as means of a place to dump chemical waste etc.

To keep it in perspective, I think the couple of summers of sewage overflows that precipitated (bad pun) the 2 Glacier Point/Apron rockfalls in Yosemite have done far more damage than 50+ years of climbing.

This question comes from the guy who posted a pic of bouldering on rocks with petroglyphs.... Oh, what sweet irony.

He was also off trail in an area that prohibits off trail travel.

More internal classification. Just what rock climbing needs.

-shanedms

Save the Lichens!

I think we're one of the most environmentally damaging user groups out there.

Personally, I think I'm a selfish bastard who routinely puts my own fun interest ahead of environmental matters. I try my best to limit my impact, but not at the expense of where and how I want to climb.

That's about as honest as I can be.

Just being alive, we abuse the environment.

"I accept that many of us indulge in destructive technologies and behaviors, yes. But I do not accept the radical notion that merely through breathing, eating, drinking and fornicating (4 of my favorite things!) I am abusing the environment. "

I didn't say existing, I said living. Living...where do you breathe at night? In your home made entirely of recycled woods and materials and powered by the sun? Do you have a compost pile in your backyard for the scraps of food you don't eat? Do you recycle every bottle and can you drink out of? Do you make sure restaurants do the same? Is that condom you fornicate with or birth control method you use entirely natural, not tested on animals, made from all natural elements?

The acts of eating, breathing, drinking and fornicating are some of my favorite things as well. Mankind needs those things to exist, to sustain. But, as part of living, we dont do this is the best way possible. As part of enjoying the time we spend on Earth, we use forms of recreation and comfort. Not necessary to survive, but being a selfish creature, I need and want those things to live!

this is stupid....

--not me and the people that I climb with. You probably are a selfish bastard but trying your "best" to limit impact sounds a little weak. It sounds like you don't really try your best or you'd have a little more to say about it...so why don't you try being a little more honest.
--If I am heading to a crag and a faster way would be for me to stomp through delicate plants/ cryptobiotic soils... and the like I stick to the trail. I cart out my s--- whenever possible( often). I NEVER leave trash or tape etc...I pick up others trash( hikers/ campers/ and sometimes climbers)
--However, I drive a big gas guzzling SUV to the crag / climbing location...so I loose on that one.
--when it comes to me in the "woods"/ "wilderness" I do everything possible, that I know of, to limit my impact on the area. and yes it is important to me and it really pisses me off when I see other climbers being irresponsible. Most of the time I see people being pretty damn good about it.

this is stupid...

--not me and the people that I climb with. You probably are a selfish bastard but trying your "best" to limit impact sounds a little weak. It sounds like you don't really try your best or you'd have a little more to say about it...so why don't you try being a little more honest.
--If I am heading to a crag and a faster way would be for me to stomp through delicate plants/ cryptobiotic soils... and the like I stick to the trail. I cart out my s--- whenever possible( often). I NEVER leave trash or tape etc...I pick up others trash( hikers/ campers/ and sometimes climbers)
--However, I drive a big gas guzzling SUV to the crag / climbing location...so I loose on that one.
--when it comes to me in the "woods"/ "wilderness" I do everything possible, that I know of, to limit my impact on the area. and yes it is important to me and it really pisses me off when I see other climbers being irresponsible. Most of the time I see people being pretty damn good about it.

Back to the question "Who cares about the environment?" Good question..hard answer. While we all care about the environment in some way, be it recycling, picking up trash, minimizing impact by staying on trails, hunting for population control (WTF!), we are all guilty of abusing the environment. Just being alive, we abuse the environment. It is a part of living. Until we all move to a commune, grow our own fruits and vegetables, raise livestock, share responsibilities, separate our trash even into scraps, donate that car to the needy, quit using hair products, deodorant or even certain soaps, until we stop using pesticides and stop being selfish in general...then we are all guilty of not caring about the environment fully. I am a selfish b----/bastard just like J-ung, just like most i would imagine. I am not ready to do that, but willing to find my own happy medium.
On a side notet the whole hunting issue, it being about controlling population is BS! Yes, I understand that hunting does control species from breeding out of control. No question it effects ecosystems greatly and in a good way. But-poaching is hunting something illegally, and sport hunting--well it's a sport! Just like climbing, it is a form of recreation. And, do you think hunters try to stay on marked trails or do they trample vegetation? DO you think they pick up their empty shells all the time. Hell, I have seen a dead carcus lying at the base of a cliff, obviously decomposed, but still with an arrow through an undistinguishable part of its body. What happenned to LNT when you see the remains of a successful hunt? Can you honestly say hunters go out with their full-on riot gear to protect the environment or do they go out as SPORTSmen and women? I think the latter.

Stupid? :?


Soooo.. in other words, we completely agree. You listed some specific things you do limit your damage. I left specifics out.

If you need specifics, here you go. I do all the same things you do, except I don't drive an SUV. I am also active in local access groups. I dig deep holes to crap in and wipe my ass with leaves and rocks. Seriously, I can't remember the last time I buried toilet paper outside. I practice commonly accepted LNT ethics in every aspect of my outdoor experience...

...and it still doesn't erase the impact I have on the environment when I climb. I've drilled bolts, permanently damaging the stone. I clip every bolt I pass and routinely seek out sport climbs. I trample lichens if they're unfortunate enough to lay across my climbing path. I shoo bats and lizards off my holds. I trample the soil next to the cliffs every single time a I go out, and guess what, you do too.

As far as I know, the only difference between us is that I'm conscious of the damage I cause and accept it.