Also, why are hanging belays commonly accepted as "free?" Hanging belays show that a route probably CAN be freed, not that it is HAS been freed. (Skinner and Piana took a huge, visionary step towards freeing the Salathe - they did not free the Salathe)

Also, why are hanging belays commonly accepted as "free?"

Eliminating hanging belays is harder and better style. I don't see how that can be argued.

why don't you free the nose and see if you fall? i will try to do the same and then we can spray/talk/whine about it.

I think you'll find plenty of takers if you'd like to argue a 'harder=better style' equivalence.

Eliminate hanging belays:
It is harder.
It is also better style.

I'm going to spend today's remaining hours on the clock dedicated to this very issue.

Hanging belays are contrived. You would not be able to use them if you were soloing. Free soloing is the most stylistically pure form of climbing, but it is unrealistic at this level. The closest one can get to free soloing while still maintaining remaining safe is the best possible style.

Do you feel that clipping into a piece and resting when you are pumped is free climbing? I don't. Do you feel that clipping an anchor and resting at a stance upon which you wouldn't normally be able to rest is free? I don't. If you can't stand or sit and completely unweight your arms and unclench your body tension, yet you rest on a piece or an anchor, you are not truly free climbing. You could improve the style of your ascent by avoiding that rest.

Hanging belays are contrived. You would not be able to use them if you were soloing. Free soloing is the most stylistically pure form of climbing, but it is unrealistic at this level. The closest one can get to free soloing while still maintaining remaining safe is the best possible style.

Do you feel that clipping into a piece and resting when you are pumped is free climbing? I don't. Do you feel that clipping an anchor and resting at a stance upon which you wouldn't normally be able to rest is free? I don't. If you can't stand or sit and completely unweight your arms and unclench your body tension, yet you rest on a piece or an anchor, you are not truly free climbing. You could improve the style of your ascent by avoiding that rest.

Hanging belays are contrived. You would not be able to use them if you were soloing. Free soloing is the most stylistically pure form of climbing, but it is unrealistic at this level. The closest one can get to free soloing while still maintaining remaining safe is the best possible style.

Also, why are hanging belays commonly accepted as "free?" Hanging belays show that a route probably CAN be freed, not that it is HAS been freed. (Skinner and Piana took a huge, visionary step towards freeing the Salathe - they did not free the Salathe)

...2005: Tommy Caldwell. Free ascent in 12 hours, leading every pitch, 1 fall on Changing Corners pitch.
---

As has been mentioned elsewhere, the bottom to top ascent without falls has yet to be done.

There are a few climbers who accept a multi-pitch free climb only after they have climbed each pitch consecutively without falling. I realize that some will view this as absurd (yes, I know, most of you don't care...), but I think it has some validity...

Using that logic, if you clip the chains on a sport route that is not a no-hands rest, you didn't "free climb" the route! And, on any multi-pitch climb if the belay is not "no hands" you didn't free climb the route??

And I think this prohibition against hanging belays is just f---ing silly.

Outright silly. I'm serious, you old guys are embarrassing me. Stop it with the hanging belay s--- OK?

DMT

I have to agree with dingus in that hanging in a belay does not negate a free ascent. Hanging belays have been a recognized and accepted component of free ascents for at least as long as I've climbed (three decades).

Certain belays would not be possible without them, regardless of a climber's physical and technical prowess. As much as climber's abilities have skyrocketed in the last decade or so, I find it hard to believe that we will be seeing even top rockstars free belaying from 5.14, overhanging stances anytime soon.

What I find most remarkable about this thread is that the author's OP made a very good point, and yet most all here chose to ignore it in favor of this - with all due respect - silly debate.

I would be very interested in hearing what you think about the idea of only calling a traditional ascent free after it has been done from base to summit without falls - hanging belays notwithstanding

It is rare that a decent rest isn't available within 200-250 ft... Even those super-hard Dolomite free routes are mostly stance to stance (Huber's Bellavista is, I believe).

Speaking of Huber... Yuji linked past Huber's "marginal" stance on the Salathe and called the pitch 13d - and said he felt he'd done a "new route." I think this may well be true; like Sharma on Realization, he came a step closer to climbing the natural line without gear-assistance.

In my opinion, Tommy, Beth, Lynn and Scott all freed the nose. There's still room for a "freer" ascent, though.

Oh, and this coming from someone who calls himself "stickclipper" ? :D

Now you woke me up ( and pissed me off) Lynn, Tommy and beth freed the nose. Scott TOP ROPED a crux pitch. had Scott been a member of a strong enough team that his partner could have led that pitch then he would have been part of a team free acent. that was NOT the case. as hard as he is and as close as he came he still missed the mark by a long mile.

Of course, unless you really care about interjecting sport climbing standards and language into trad climbing, following a pitch with no falls also constitutes doing the pitch free. I also believe that Scott has done the Nose free. He just hasn't led every pitch free--there's a difference.

Curt

Of course, unless you really care about interjecting sport climbing standards and language into trad climbing, following a pitch with no falls also constitutes doing the pitch free. I also believe that Scott has done the Nose free. He just hasn't led every pitch free--there's a difference.

Curt

Dissagree. As i stated If scott was part of a TEAM that led every pitch free then folowing the roof free would have counted. fact was they did NOT lead every pitch he top roped a crux pitch. top ropeing simply does not count. If it did then i would be able to spray WI 5+++ for christ sake :roll:

not stressed at all, i just soloed 500 ft of perfect 5.6 7 5.7. Extreemly yummy. Putting a top rope accent in there with a fee lead is just silly. scotts effort is certainly huge and worth mentioning but he tryed and failed. The other three individuals succeded.

I think the better question to ask is...did the "Nose" actually see a free ascent?

since the line that was free climbed is not actually the nose as most people climb it and rely's on chipped variation pitches.

Tommy and Beth's acomplishments on El Cap are truly amazing, no doubt.

Dissagree. As i stated If scott was part of a TEAM that led every pitch free then folowing the roof free would have counted. fact was they did NOT lead every pitch he top roped a crux pitch. top ropeing simply does not count. If it did then i would be able to spray WI 5+++ for christ sake :roll:

Close counts in horse shoes, hand grenades and tactical nuclear weopens. It does NOT count in red point attempts 8^)

You're missing the point...a free climb is defined as:

To climb rock using only hands and feet to ascend (ie. without recourse to artificial aids).

This is exactly what Burke did!!

I get to the last pitch and for whatever reason be it weather , fatigue, aproacheing darkness, sudden lack of sac or whatever, I grab gear and haul my butt up past the two bolts at the crux, take a hang, cuss a bit and call myself a wimp. then i lower back down to the belay, shake out again and top rope back up past that pesky crux to the turkey ledge anchors. I DID NOT FREE CLIMB POD :roll:

For some strange reason it appears that only people who started climbing before "sport" climbing existed understand what the actual definition of free climbing is. How odd.

Curt. top ropeing may be free climbing but it is not leading and does not count in the FA dept.

I would think a good republican like yourself would understand the black and white win lose factor represented in this argument?

Curt. top ropeing may be free climbing but it is not leading and does not count in the FA dept...

Unless you are trying to be particularly obtuse, this thread is not about who got the FFA of the Nose. Everyone knows that was Lynn Hill. The question asked was about who has climbed the Nose free. Scott has done that, whether it gets your panties in a bunch or not. However, since you still appear to not comprehend the true definition of free climbing, I am quite certain you will post something else to this thread that is incorrect.

Curt

And by the way, just because my name is Stickclipper doesn't mean I'm a sport climber. Ever consider that a name may be in jest?

I won't trouble myself with the difficulty of explaining the concept of irony to you.