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metoliusmunchkin
Aug 12, 2002, 12:45 AM
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During one's climbing endeavour, there are many mental and emotional forces and processes continuously developing. As such, many of these emotional forces and processes create certain effects on behaviour and mental states. It is my intention to birth an explanation or interpretation (as of behaviour or mental states) in terms of such mental and emotional forces or processes introduced above.
For quite some time, it has been the psychodynamics of climbing that I have found so very interesting and compelling. I find it extremely amazing how any one indignant lifestyle can have such a profound effect upon one's emotional states. Though I assume that all lifestyles are compelling.
Psychodynamics (to be described in its most basic terms as being the motivational forces acting especially at the unconscious level) play such an active and dynamic role in climbing, that one becomes familiar to its nature, even though unaware of its important existence. Climbing acquires so many diverse aspects that it is very difficult to simply describe anyone, notably its most complicated one: the mental aspect.
On a climb, there are so many mental aspects running to and fro about the mind unconsciously, that one would describe the actions of ascent are simply autonomic. A perfect instance to describe such a truth would be during the ascent of a climb extensively familiar to the climber. The climber will have no trouble making its concluded completion. The manoeuvres demanded by the climb's sequences are so mentally-physically familiar that one's mind can wonder to other things.
These "other things" will continue to concern the climb itself, yet not dwell upon the usual mental aspects of a climb. It is now not the conscious mind allowing the climber to successfully complete the climb, yet the unconscious motivational forces (psychodynamics) allowing the climber to make the ascent.
Within so many diverse and differing instances could one find a suitable exemplary explanation of the psychodynamics of climbing, and how it relays the unconscious mind to the conscious one.
It is my personal belief, that such a relaying between consciousness and unconsciousness (not actually leaving consciousness, yet unconscious thought rather) is the key to a healthier mental game for true success in climbing. Such is the psychodynamics (unconscious, ever driving, motivational force) used to the climbers advantage while upon the face.
If one can find their own personal particular "zone" in which the psychodynamics becomes the primary focus for completion, one has found the utmost mental game for such a game, and need not ever again find a climb to be mentally challenging. However, it can easily be stated that psychodynamics is not the key to a successful climb, and this is true.
Psychodynamics will not be the basis of success alone, yet a balance of such a skill and physical technique that will allow one to become the ultimate climber. Firstly one must acquire the strength and technique-skill required for the physical aspect of climbing, and secondly acquire the psychodynamic-realization of the game to allow for perfect, flawless success.
You dig?
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marcel
Aug 12, 2002, 2:22 AM
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After reading a few of your post metoliusmunchkin are you really only 14?
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metoliusmunchkin
Aug 12, 2002, 2:37 AM
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Actually, I'm thirteen.
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marcel
Aug 12, 2002, 2:43 AM
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I'm impressed!
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wiegs
Aug 12, 2002, 3:11 AM
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*sigh*
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mzllr
Aug 12, 2002, 3:13 AM
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if i have kids, they're going to a canadian school.
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aelita
Aug 12, 2002, 3:25 AM
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hey, metoliusmunchkin... interesting thoughts... but... not to make this an attack or anything, but uhh... you can say the same thing in simpler terms and sentences and it doesn't take away from the quality of thought... just makes it easier to read...
cheers
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rmiller
Aug 12, 2002, 3:44 AM
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However, one can also state that the act of climbing (behavior) is an attempt to work out certain unconcious mental states that are unacceptable to the preconcious or conscious mind. In particular, it is my belief that the act of climbing is an attempt to work through unconcious, split off parts of the self. As Freud discovered, and Klein later developed more fully, we are born with an unconcious force termed the "death" instinct. To keep it short and simple, I believe we split off these "parts" that are based within the death instinct due to "anxiety." Basically, we are trying to keep the unconcious fantasies, wishes, etc. out of conciousness. it appears we do so by splitting them off from our mind, project them out into the world, and then identify them as not part of us. Climbing appears to be an attempt to "work out" these unconscious forces in a arena that is "ok" for us to handle consciously. Thus, we may never be able to reach the mental state you are discussing, as we will always have a drive force stemming from the death instinct. Yes, we may be able to work through some of the unconcious material, resulting anxiety, and become more comfortable on the rock. But we might, and probably won't, work through all of it. In result, climbing will more than likely always result in some levels of anxiety and be mentality challenging, as unconcious forces are always present. Yet, I could also be wrong! Great thought and mind you have!!! Keep it up.
Ronnie
[ This Message was edited by: rmiller on 2002-08-11 20:48 ]
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metoliusmunchkin
Aug 12, 2002, 5:20 AM
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Ronnie (rmiller) wrote:
Quote:Basically, we are trying to keep the unconcious fantasies, wishes, etc. out of conciousness. it appears we do so by splitting them off from our mind, project them out into the world, and then identify them as not part of us. Climbing appears to be an attempt to "work out" these unconscious forces in a arena that is "ok" for us to handle consciously. Thus, we may never be able to reach the mental state you are discussing, as we will always have a drive force stemming from the death instinct.
I agree with the statement of the fact that we as human entities could never reach such a state of mental and emotional enlightenment simply through the delicate stages of our unconsciousness during climbing. There must be far more powerful forces at work in order to accomplish such a higher mental state.
Moreover, I again am in agreement with your statement of: "Climbing appears to be an attempt to 'work out' these unconscious forces in a arena that is 'ok' for us to handle consciously." However, the key to such a statement is the use of the word attempt. We are constantly attempting to simply attempt to reach such a sophisticated state of mental grace in tapping into the psychodynamics of the climbing consciousness, yet as human beings, are unable to do so.
This is precisely the reasoning behind my stating that if one could in actuality overcome such a humanistic inability, to reach a state of the meshing of both the conscious and the unconscious mind, one will thus become a better climber for it - not to mention a better person in general.
Basically, we must attempt to introduce the unconscious state of mental brainwaves to the conscious thought, as such to become one, and we may consequently use more of our brainpower, overcoming obstacles far greater than simply a physically demanding climb (let alone its mental demand).
...
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wonder1978
Aug 12, 2002, 5:52 AM
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A good try Munchkin, very good indeed.
As you develop your argument you should watch for rhetorical traps such as the pleonasm, I've noticed one or two instances of such a defect which makes the thesis slightly weaker. As for the thesis itself, it is unfortunately antithetical and will eventually lead to a dead end. Perhaps you would be interested in the writings of the French philosopher Jacques Derridas and his ideas concerning
"la Differance". You might feel compelled to review your argument more thoroughly. When Freud discovered the unconscious, Derridas immediately opposed it to the well known conscious rendering them utterly unreconcilable. Just as death is inexistent without life, unconsciousness does not exist without our conscious awareness of it. Merging them, according to Derridas, would annihilate both as well as you. It is, of course, a simplistic explanation of a complex phenomenon but this isn't philosopha.com now is it. If you are interested though I gladly refer you to the writings of Lacan, Heidegger, Hegel, Foucault and of course Derridas!
Enjoy!
Steve
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noosphere
Aug 12, 2002, 11:34 AM
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Whoa! I'm certainly in the wrong post!
..::Brian
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metoliusmunchkin
Aug 13, 2002, 6:45 PM
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Steve (wonder1978) wrote:
Quote:Merging them, according to Derridas, would annihilate both as well as you.
"[..]according to Derridas[..]," proves that such philosophy, as is the one presented before you here, is solely based upon a particular opinion (as most philosophies are). Also, the existent thought of psychodynamics and climbing is more of a theory, rather than an actual philosophy in itself.
Furthermore, how possibly could the merging of both consciousness and unconsciousness prove to annihilate the physical body? How is it even possible to prove such a statement. Such is the flaw of Derridas' philosophy.
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wonder1978
Aug 13, 2002, 7:28 PM
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explanation: The unconscious has meaning only when opposed to its counterpart: our own consciousness. If one attempts to merge these two concepts (for concepts is all that they are) they lose all their meaningfulness, and we as humans lose our ability to recognize them and therefore to conceptualize them. In the same way, we humans, individuals exist only as opposed to the Other. Without the Other we have no foundation on which we can base our construction of ourself. Everything that is, is through 'Differance'.
I respect your theory though(and your mind), it's just too paradoxical for my understanding.
Regards, Steve
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metoliusmunchkin
Aug 13, 2002, 8:36 PM
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So what you are stating is that the merging of both consciousness and unconsciousness will form the destruction of one's own individual recognition of their differences, yes? And, this destruction pertains not to the physical being, rather the mental self.
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phillycheese
Aug 13, 2002, 8:51 PM
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aahhh the great "Other." very Lacanian and more contemporary Zizak. good stuff you two. keep it coming.
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acrophobic
Aug 13, 2002, 9:04 PM
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I find climbing much the same as meditating. You ever get the times where you are climbing, and after you finish you say to yourself “how on earth did I do that move”? Or times where you grab a hold and try a move and fail, and someone comes up and tells you to hold it a different way, and you can’t remember how you grabbed it the first time?
This is the side effect of extreme concentration. I find I climb most the time “blank” in comfortable conditions. I don’t think of anything at all… I don’t think “ok I need to place my hand like this”, it is just automatic. My mind isn't wandering around memories or past events. It is focused and precise. This is the same effect you have in meditation. You are almost unaware of passage of time… ask artists when they are drawing. They might be sitting at that desk for 2 hours, but to them the times flies by and are usually surprised at the time when they stop.
It deals with the separation of left and right hemispheres in your brain. The left logical side keeps track of time, does math and is the product of all those years of public schooling. The right has no concept of time, it is the artistic, manual and daydream side. When you first start doing yoga, for example, your left brain sends out messages such as “why are you doing this? It’s a waste of time, I want to do something else” It is much the same why people cannot draw.. They stop learning at a young age, so the left brain says “this is how I know to draw a hand, so just draw it like that, why are you wasting time drawing what you are seeing??”
Same goes with climbing. Your left hemisphere tells you logical observations like to slow down, stop, be afraid, “you can’t make that hold”. Your right hemisphere has no concept of these things and just accepts what you are doing. Like highway driving, you go almost into a trance and time kind of passes more quickly because your left hemisphere basically gives up because it has nothing to do and can’t change the fact your stuck in a car. Driving is like walking, you don’t need to think to walk. Climbing is much the same after a while, thinking becomes obsolete . When you get to an unfamiliar area, or get very high up and your not accustomed to it, your left kicks into gear again because you now are in unfamiliar territory. People who do a lot of on sights are usually very experienced and can switch of the logical thinking. Artist do this all the time when they start to draw. Try having a thought provoking discussion with someone you know while they are drawing, they will most likely stop or just start scribbling random stuff. This is because the left is interfering again with the right, so the right bows down. Our culture has taught us that math is far more important that art and it shows in your thinking.
Learn to control the mind, and everything else will follow.
[ This Message was edited by: acrophobic on 2002-08-13 14:05 ]
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metoliusmunchkin
Aug 13, 2002, 9:32 PM
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Andrew (acrophobic) wrote:
Quote:This is the side effect of extreme concentration. I find I climb most the time “blank” in comfortable conditions. I don’t think of anything at all… I don’t think “ok I need to place my hand like this”, it is just automatic. My mind isn't wandering around memories or past events.
Whilst I climb, my mind frame is in that exact state as you described - a void of nothingness. Even during an onsight attempt, my mind wanders into a difference in area.
This is better described as the wandering of the consciousness, thus the unconscious mind will then control the body (to some degree) allowing one's conscious mind to appear "blanked." It is this that is the essence of my theory concerning the psychodynamics of climbing - the rendering of the body to the unconscious mind, and the allowing of this by the conscious mind.
Quote:You are almost unaware of passage of time… ask artists when they are drawing. They might be sitting at that desk for 2 hours, but to them the times flies by and are usually surprised at the time when they stop.
The events described above usually take place whence a person becomes so entangled within a particular task (a task that they love, exemplified here as drawing, yet can really be exemplified as any activity - in this case: climbing) that, again, their unconscious mind seems to render the conscious mind unable to concentrate upon the normal things which we concentrate upon (such as the passing of time, the moves of a climb, etc.).
Quote:It deals with the separation of left and right hemispheres in your brain. The left logical side keeps track of time, does math and is the product of all those years of public schooling. The right has no concept of time, it is the artistic, manual and daydream side. When you first start doing yoga, for example, your left brain sends out messages such as “why are you doing this? It’s a waste of time, I want to do something else” It is much the same why people cannot draw.. They stop learning at a young age, so the left brain says “this is how I know to draw a hand, so just draw it like that, why are you wasting time drawing what you are seeing??”
Pure logic. The unconscious mind can be best suited to be found "within" the right brain. It is times like these (immersed within a loved activity) where the right brain will overcome the logic of the left brain, thus causing one to loose track of all logical instances, unaware of the passing things affecting him, or happening around him.
Quote:When you get to an unfamiliar area, or get very high up and your not accustomed to it, your left kicks into gear again because you now are in unfamiliar territory. People who do a lot of on sights are usually very experienced and can switch of the logical thinking.
Yes, although those who can somehow merge the consciousness mind (the logic of movement, during a climb of course) with the unconscious mind (the "blankness" that allows us to climb so well) one can become the greatest climber to ever grace the face of a rock. It is this that is the essence of my theory.
Quote:Learn to control the mind, and everything else will follow.
Yes.
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wonder1978
Aug 13, 2002, 10:58 PM
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Yes, metoliusmunchkin, this is exactly what I mean (or rather what Derrida means). By recognizing that the unconscious has meaning only when opposed to the conscious we give them both significance.
I totally agree with you that if a climber could somehow put himself in a state of mind that would make him oblivious of his own mental hindrances he would be, limited by his own strength and technique, a lot more efficient. That is not to say that there is any merging of conscious and unconscious as I still believe this claim to be somewhat paradoxical.
Yes, yes phillycheese, the great Lacanian Other. Not a Lacan scholar myself but I've had to deal with him one time or two. Can't say I totally agree with his theories though.
Metoliusmunchkin, if you were old enough to drink, I'd buy you a beer and we'd have a nice evening of talk. Conversation is an art that is decaying.
Regards, Steve
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metoliusmunchkin
Aug 13, 2002, 11:15 PM
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Well, glad to have cleared that up then. It is the basic self realization that is deleterious to the negative mental hindrances. With the controlling of the mind (rather than the mind controlling the self) such mental hindrances can be drawn out of thought, and one would thus become a better climber for it.
Well, next time I'm in Quebec, you can buy me a rootbeer and we can still have a good conversation.
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collegekid
Aug 13, 2002, 11:31 PM
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Isn't all the "unconscious/conscious merging" not necessary?
I mean, i know climbing is a mentally demanding sport, but it doesn't require some zen-like state to achieve your potential. If you simply have the confidence to climb to your potential, you should do fine...convince the conscious mind that you ARE able to do things. confidence comes from experience.
Anyway, the reason i climb in the first place is that it is a mental AND physical challenge. If you could block negative, conscious thoughts such that you can climb to you absolute limit, then it's no longer a mental challenge...just a matter of physical training. Essentially, without your conscious mind, you are a robot. I would not trade my conscious enjoyment of climbing for robot-like abilities.
Maybe i misunderstood metoliusmunchkin's idea of blending conscious/unconscious. Whatever.
Also, this idea is as old as the olympics. Ever watch a distance race (such as the 1500 meters)...it is ALL mental. Watch the movie "without limits" besides being a good movie, prefontaine shows that racing is all mental. Humans do have physical limits to thier performances, and psychological factors can decrease performances..making one "think" he cannot do something that is in fact within his abilities. But as i've already said, without these factors, you are no longer human, and instead are a...ROBOT.
I am going to stop talking now.
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wonder1978
Aug 13, 2002, 11:41 PM
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Ok, this is getting dreadfully redundant and superfluous. since the last post doesn't further the argument but rather rephrases it in simpler terms let us drop it. Such threads are much more interesting mano a mano. and they are very interesting by the way
regards, Steve
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metoliusmunchkin
Aug 13, 2002, 11:49 PM
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Jon (collegekid) wrote:
Quote: Isn't all the "unconscious/conscious merging" not necessary?
I mean, i know climbing is a mentally demanding sport, but it doesn't require some zen-like state to achieve your potential. If you simply have the confidence to climb to your potential, you should do fine...convince the conscious mind that you ARE able to do things. confidence comes from experience.
Not in any way does my theory even in the slightest manner imply that one must merge both consciousness and unconsciousness to become a better climber. What my theory does heavily imply however, is that with the acquiring of the qualitative skill of meshing both the conscious and the unconscious mind, one would thus become a great climber.
Surely one could become a great climber without acquiring such a self-realizing, powerful skill. With such a skill, though already a great climber, a great climber could become the greatest. Mentally, this sport is very demanding, with such a "mental realization-skill" it is no longer demanding.
Quote:Anyway, the reason i climb in the first place is that it is a mental AND physical challenge. If you could block negative, conscious thoughts such that you can climb to you absolute limit, then it's no longer a mental challenge...just a matter of physical training. Essentially, without your conscious mind, you are a robot. I would not trade my conscious enjoyment of climbing for robot-like abilities.
It is also not being implied that with such a realization of the meshing of both the conscious and unconscious mind that one need not require mental training afterward. If this was so (which I heavily stress isn't) you would be correct in stating that there would no longer be any point in mental training, although you are incorrect.
Such a self-realizing mental control allows a climber to realize his mental climbing limits, not necessarily allow him to simply reach them. You must first learn to utilize such an unconscious to conscious binding power before attaining the mental heights we all seek. Once reaching such an elite mental level, there is still work to be done (mentally, as well as physically).
In anything in this life, there will always be improvement. Even if there is every chance known to man is working in his favour, there is still room for error, an error that can cause ultimate fate. This is precisely why knowledge and intelligence overcomes power in all of its forms.
This brings us back to the simple fact that one must be in control of one's mind, rather than having the mind control the self. Such is the key to the utilization of personal power (the attainment of the merging of consciousness and unconsciousness).
Quote:Humans do have physical limits to thier performances, and psychological factors can decrease performances..making one "think" he cannot do something that is in fact within his abilities. But as i've already said, without these factors, you are no longer human, and instead are a...ROBOT.
The human physicality has its limits, yes, though the mentality does not. Again, I must stress that this entire thread is based upon the eternal mental horizons that have been given to man. If one can learn to utilize certain capacities of such a horizon, the mental aspects of his life are endless.
Quote:I am going to stop talking now.
I'm not done yet...
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lilred
Aug 14, 2002, 12:03 AM
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~breakthru~ Whoah...you all have just helped me tremendously...I've been climbing like poo for the last few months, stuck on some "plateau" or whatever, and I never thought about the "zone" in this aspect. After I read this post, I went off to the canyon and instead of dreading the climb like I usually do, I went completely blank, as if meditating, and I can't tell you how fluid the movement was. Instead of shaking, and putting my feet in three different places like I usually do, IT FLOWED...perfectly, effortlessly, all with timelessness....
WOW
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wonder1978
Aug 14, 2002, 12:10 AM
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Amen!!!!!!
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metoliusmunchkin
Aug 14, 2002, 12:17 AM
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Meghan (lilred) wrote:
Quote:~breakthru~ Whoah...you all have just helped me tremendously...I've been climbing like poo for the last few months, stuck on some "plateau" or whatever, and I never thought about the "zone" in this aspect. After I read this post, I went off to the canyon and instead of dreading the climb like I usually do, I went completely blank, as if meditating, and I can't tell you how fluid the movement was. Instead of shaking, and putting my feet in three different places like I usually do, IT FLOWED...perfectly, effortlessly, all with timelessness....
WOW
I'm extremely happy that such theories were of significant help to you. Great job on that route! Hopefully this sort of thing may help you on the climbs to come.
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collegekid
Aug 14, 2002, 12:24 AM
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I guess the concept is too subtle for me then... I prefer the method of climbing that involves grunting and cussing as opposed to higher mental states.
The extent of my knowledge of psychology is one class on development...so if you are going to write anything further, please do so in layman's terms. Otherwise, sorry for "getting dreadfully redundant and superfluous."
Is what you're talking about simply the state known as "the zone"?
[ This Message was edited by: collegekid on 2002-08-13 17:26 ]
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metoliusmunchkin
Aug 14, 2002, 12:34 AM
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Jon (collegekid) wrote:
Quote:Is what you're talking about simply the state known as "the zone"?
No. It is far more complicated than that. Basically, what this theory is describing, is the integrating (and eventually, the merging) of both the conscious and unconscious mind, so that one can perceive the intentions of the unconscious mind, consciously.
It also describes the psychodynamics of climbing (how climbing can emotionally/mentally effect you). I suggest looking up "psychodynamic" in the dictionary.
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collegekid
Aug 14, 2002, 12:36 AM
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basically, knowing what is holding you back mentally. ?
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roclymber
Aug 14, 2002, 12:47 AM
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The ability for the mind to be able to hold someone back in anything is definitely evident, and the reverse is true too for the mind in raising your self confidence (The mind is not something outside the body, Im just addressing it as such to make it easier to relay point.)
Though I have two problems with metolius' theory. And it may be due to a lack of understanding (reading conscious and unconscious over and over so many times can confuse the point.) so let me try to explain. You are proposing to heighten one's ability in climbing by combining the characteristics of the unconscious mind to the conscious so the climber is not aware (aware is a bad word, but fits) of his inabilities or abilities? That way only his physical inadequacies will stop him?
And now for my other question.
I don't think many people have this "mental setback" if it is the case. They may do, but it is definitely hard to identify. For example if a climber were to think that he could not do a problem, then he simply wouldn't do it. If he tried, and fell because he lost his grip, then I wouldn't attribute that to his mental state at the time. Maybe a fear of heights or disappointment may stop some, but to others that could be an advantage something to utilize to force themselves to climb better. In the top competitions, I fail to see why any of the most elite climbers would have anything in their minds to hold them back. And what if you were able to completely climb everything free solo style (e.g. spiderman) What in your mind could possibly act as a hinderance?
Just something to ponder. I touched philosophy, but never really found a love because I encountered too many paradoxes(sp?)
-matt
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metoliusmunchkin
Aug 14, 2002, 3:22 AM
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It is not merely a case of the mentality of a climber holding him back, it is a matter of mental enlightenment that can cause one to better enjoy a climb, become more aware of one's self, become more aware of the distinct climb one is on, and to completely delete all mental inhibitions.
Seeing as climbing is ideally a mentally charged sport, it is the mind's inhibitions that cause a climber to not reach his full potential. We must firstly concentrate on disallowing such inhibitions to affect us in any way, and consequently attempt to get rid of them.
As such, as we find that the unconscious mind leads us to better climbing (the lack of concentration upon logic, and the concentration upon the autonomic functions that should appear while climbing), we must work to realize such unconsciousness. Basically, we must become conscious of the unconscious mental functions that allow us to climb at such a wonderful level.
If this delicate art is perfected, there is no telling of what we may accomplish as climbers. The perfection of such an art renders its perfecters the ultimate mental game to aid his or her climbing, and thus only the physical aspects of the sport need work on.
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dynamic
Aug 14, 2002, 4:12 AM
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Sometimes I wonder if this entire paradigm of 'psychodynamic' is manipulated with misplaced intent. I just listened to a tape on improving memory. It was good, but I found that much of its content wasn't really powerful, but more that the time spent dwelling on the issue of memory might make one more focused throughout the day on remembering. I find it amusing that such issues can be so simple yet intriguing and entertaining to pursue in methods of theory, art, and prescriptivism.
One other thing I wonder is that perhaps that positive results in attentiveness to psychodynamics is actually from being distracted by psychology rather than enhanced by focusing on it. It seem to me that the most effective psyching up stems naturally from some stimuli such as mulling over defeat, success, or hunger. Highly subjective to the individual yet also quite generalized for humanity.
I agree with most everyone here, munch- good post.
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katydid
Aug 14, 2002, 12:59 PM
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What a great read over my morning tea! Next time I'm up in the Bruce Peninsula, m'munch, I'll let you know. (Probably Labour Day weekend....) We can do some bouldering, and then I'll buy you a root beer and we can get down to some serious talking about psychology and philosophy.
Assuming you're game, of course.
Kate
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wonder1978
Aug 14, 2002, 1:57 PM
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Collegekid, I did not mean 'redundant and superfluous' to be an attack on your post, sorry that you may have interpreted it this way. What I meant was that from here on out the argument could only be re-ruminated and would perhaps not lead to greater understanding of munchkin's theory. Concerning that point I see now that I was half wrong.
I still have to disagree though. Yes, if we could become aware of our unconscious self we would perhaps be more efficient climbers (but perhaps not as it has never been done to the extent mentionned). But this to me is still an impossibility as the main characteristic of the unconscious, what gives meaning and significance to the concept is its being UN-conscious, its being something outside our awareness and not retrievable. Self-hypnotism maybe the only solution to this riddle and that I am sure would be pretty unique to witness.
Steve
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acrophobic
Aug 14, 2002, 3:46 PM
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hypnotism and meditation are pretty much exactly the same.
it shuts off your left brain... hypnotism is pretty much described as "knowing what you are doing, but just don't care why you are doing it". That's why you can get guys to make out with other guys under hypnotism. Right brain says: sex = this emotion regardless of the gender. Left brain says: sex = only do it to this gender, as doing it with same gender is pointless and wrong.
This is why in greek times it was not out of the ordinary for 2 men to "fall in love".. their society was very right brain driven... they encouraged arts and myths and liberal minds. Not saying that switching to right brain thinking will make you bi-sexual... just a point in case.
I think the unconscious and the "void time" (as i like to call it) are two different things. There are many theories behind dreams and such.. most think it is a time the brain reorganizes important information and such, sort of like de-fragging your computer . All animals dream… My dog dreams sometimes when he is asleep. One time he woke up abruptly form I guess was a bad dream and hid under the table for 10 minutes and wouldn’t even come out for bacon!
IN any case, it is a pretty widely documented theory… and maybe people live and die by the practice of controlling their minds. Yogi are know to be able to slow down their resting heart beat and breathing by up to 50%, along other involuntary body functions.
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metoliusmunchkin
Aug 14, 2002, 6:46 PM
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Steve (wonder1978) wrote:
Quote:But this to me is still an impossibility as the main characteristic of the unconscious, what gives meaning and significance to the concept is its being UN-conscious, its being something outside our awareness and not retrievable.
It seems as though you perceive that the consciousness of certain unconscious thoughts (or the realization of their existence), still renders such thoughts in the unconscious category. This is wrong. Once something not known to the conscious mind becomes known (taken from unconsciousness) it is now conscious, and no longer unconscious.
Surely it would be extremely difficult to consciously realize any mental matters of unconsciousness within ourselves, but that is precisely why the attainment of such a mental status is very rare and hard to come by - as I have stated many times before.
The chances of one actually attaining such a level of mental self-realization, and their conscious knowledge of certain unconscious orders given to the physical body (which causes this so-called "Zen" or "Zone" while climbing) are extremely minimal. Slim to none actually.
Quote:Self-hypnotism maybe the only solution to this riddle and that I am sure would be pretty unique to witness.
I have not yet considered the contemplation of how self-hypnotism can affect these theories, though I'm sure it would not work. One must be so in tune with their mind to realize the unconscious. Rendering one's self hypnotized will to some degree great this "in tune-ness" to their mind, and perhaps delete all chances of their realizing certain unconscious matters.
Andrew (acrophobic) wrote:
Quote:There are many theories behind dreams and such.. most think it is a time the brain reorganizes important information and such, sort of like de-fragging your computer.
This is yet another theory that I have not yet contemplated, and is very interesting. Maybe the only way of actually realizing the means of the unconscious impulses is through the conscious realization of the meaning of dreams...
Quote:Yogi are know to be able to slow down their resting heart beat and breathing by up to 50%, along other involuntary body functions.
Yogi are the highest form of mental control. They are very rare to this day and age, though I am sure that they could easily reach such a state (conscious realization of the unconscious) seeing as they worship themselves - very internal people. Their entire religion is based upon it, their life rather. Very interesting...
Kate (katydid) wrote:
Quote:What a great read over my morning tea! Next time I'm up in the Bruce Peninsula, m'munch, I'll let you know. (Probably Labour Day weekend....) We can do some bouldering, and then I'll buy you a root beer and we can get down to some serious talking about psychology and philosophy.
Assuming you're game, of course.
Of course I'm game! Give me a shout when you're going down, and maybe PM me with some more details. Then we can definitely work out a meeting (hopefully).
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phillycheese
Aug 14, 2002, 8:06 PM
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metolious: i've been following this thread for a while and while your premise sounds good, it is faulty at the core. it's a logical fallacy to say that both consciousness and unconsciousness can co-exist. it's like saying that you can exist in non-existence. to know non-existence is impossible, for non-existence can't be known through existence. even the state of non-existence is not possible for to be in a state is to "be", and you cannot "be" in non-existence. it's a non-entity. so in essence, non-exsistence can't exist in existence or otherwise. (see the semantic problem?) just as unconsciousness cannot be known through consciousness. an awareness of uncosciousness is possible, but not a knowledge. maybe that is what you were getting at. awareness is different than knowledge.
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wonder1978
Aug 14, 2002, 8:42 PM
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in total agreement with phillycheese on this point
steve
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metoliusmunchkin
Aug 14, 2002, 11:34 PM
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Phil (phillycheese), how is it impossible to become conscious of certain unconscious thoughts? You have stated that "non-existence can't be known through existence," however the unconscious mind exists. Therefore, it can be known to the consciousness (existence).
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waxman
Aug 15, 2002, 12:16 AM
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You have quite the vocabulary for a fourteen year old.........Hooked on Phonics worked for you? Sorry, I must be jealous or something. Give me a break!
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phillycheese
Aug 15, 2002, 12:58 AM
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metolious: i see where you are trying to go but you are missing the definition of what consciosness is. to simplify it and not take it to heideggerian terms(we could go forever on semantics so i'll try not to take it there), lets just say to be conscious is to know empirically, or through sensory perception, whether it's touch, taste, sound, sight, etc. however, in order to be conscious, they all have to be filtered through our brain and processed into thought. unconsciousness is the antithesis. it is to know while not using the empirical realm. can this be? can we truely know without sensory perception? this all will lead to epistemology and metaphysics. can one truely be unconscious and yet still process conscious thought?? you cannot know of unconsciousness unless you are conscious which will always eliminate unconsciousness. you end up with a fallacious argument based on circle logic. one more time for clarity, you must consciously be unconscious to know the unconsious which ends up begging the question.
sorry for the confusion, but these topics are never cut and dry. good philosophical debates will go for days.
BTW: i'm not posting in order to up my count or start an arguement, and i also know that there probably are holes in my arguement as well so i welcome all criticism with open arms. i like to learn and progress, and criticism is a great step in progression of thought.
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collegekid
Aug 15, 2002, 1:18 AM
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could we stop using the words "consciousness" and "unconsciousness" so much?
I agree with phillycheese.
Does one need to have conscious access to his/her entire mind in order for it to function better? For example, could you imagine what could happen if you had control over involuntary bodily functions? Dangerous things to mess with. I suppose for a yogi or a monk, this idea works, since that type of person has been practicing control over subconscious functions for some time. But to do so requires a different lifestyle...one with less complication and stress. If you wish to leave society and live in the mountains with a cult for the rest of your life, controlling the subconscious in order to become a super-climber is possible. To become truly "in tune" with your mind requires concentration, time, and a lack of distractions (this is why yoga classes are taken in the dark , without music)
I suppose simply doing yoga or some other relaxation technique could help you to climb better. I don't think that is nearly as extreme of mind control as m'munchkin is talking about though.
I think simply believing in yourself (consciously) would vastly improve one's climbing...watch pro tip #7 at http://www.climbxmedia.com/index4.html.
Don't forget that the conscious mind has a large influence on the subconscious mind...thinking good thoughts will ultimately make you feel better.
fav quote of mine: "if you think 'sh t' you'll climb sh t"
[ This Message was edited by: collegekid on 2002-08-14 18:32 ]
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metoliusmunchkin
Aug 15, 2002, 1:41 AM
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Let me firstly state how much I appreciate all of your contributions to this thread of mine. It does however discourage me that there aren't as many people contributing to such a thread as I would have hoped.
Jon, each of your points are vallid, however, each of your questions can be answered within my previous posts, use your head. You must find such answers. I will no longer repeat myself, because as Steve had previously stated, this thread is getting rather redundant.
Phil, the word consciousness is being used in the context of being aware of certain things, or the knowledge of their existence. It is not necessary to know theories or facts through the basis of "touch, taste, sound, sight, etc." but to simply know of their existence, consciously.
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phillycheese
Aug 15, 2002, 1:59 AM
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metolious: being aware/conscious is done empirically. however, i completely agree with you in that knowledge is not limited to empirical evidence. we have progress in our thinking since David Hume made that idea popular in the 19th century. and yes, this is getting redundant and will end up digressing into a semantics debate. Steve, as i'm sure you know, Derrida would have much to say about language and it's digression. that being said, thanks again metolious for a great conversation and i look forward to more of your insights.
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metoliusmunchkin
Aug 15, 2002, 2:13 AM
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Phil (phillycheese) wrote:
Quote:metolious: being aware/conscious is done empirically. however, i completely agree with you in that knowledge is not limited to empirical evidence.
Thank you. I feel very strongly of this.
Quote:[..]thanks again metolious for a great conversation and i look forward to more of your insights.
Your welcome (although I'm really not sure what I have done). I too look forward to my next insights, however one is never sure what they will be. We will just have to wait and see.
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wonder1978
Aug 15, 2002, 2:18 AM
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yes in deed phil, Derrida would have a ball, and would probably be pissed at all of us for our shallowmindedness. I deal too much with Derrida at the university (and foucault and Lacan and heidegger and Hegel and Barthes and many others for that matter)to even think about them on rc.com. But it seems I have trouble resisting a heated philosophical debate, eventhough philosophy is not my main thing. (more of a literary kind of guy)
It was extremely entertaining nonetheless.
m'munchkin will surely be a talented scholar one day.
Regards, Steve
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krustyklimber
Aug 15, 2002, 2:46 AM
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Hey let's go back to philosphy, I'm lost and my head hurts, and not once in this thread has Munchie said "Krusty totaly gets it!"
That was more fun for me anyway!
Right on Munchie!
You know how I feel!
Your Friend,
Jeff
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metoliusmunchkin
Aug 15, 2002, 11:47 PM
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Jeff (jeremiah_the_bullfrog) wrote:
Quote:i always thought climbing was just a way to get out and get up high.
Yes, but with the utilization of such mentalities (or the mental enlightening - becoming conscious of unconscious climbing related impulses) one can acquire an even greater "high."
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