Tell us, why do you hate christianity so much?

On the other hand I could name a few incidents (and threads) of the recent past which are well able to give a cause for the aversion displayed.

Those same threads are hardly adverts for tolerance on the part of atheists either. Yet you don't see me or other christians starting anti-atheist hate threads, now do you?

Similarly, you don't see us obssessing endlessly about atheism, attacking, ridiculing and outright lying about it, because atheism genuinely doesn't bother us.

Can you say the same about your side?

oh here's a quick and good one

THE CONCISE HISTORY OF THE WESTERN WORLD DATING BACK TO CONSTANTINE

I frequently get the impression that some people consider the net impact of Christianity on the western world to be negative.

Do people really think this?

No. But then, I'm not a side but a perfectly indepedent entity with an opinion on my own. And you won't find me attacking, ridiculing and lying about religion... at least not in a way that should provoke anyone beyond a good argument.

Similarly, you don't see us obssessing endlessly about atheism, attacking, ridiculing and outright lying about it, because atheism genuinely doesn't bother us.

"It is impossible to exaggerate the importance of the coming of Christianity. It brought with it, for one thing, an altogether new sense of human life. For the Greeks had shown man his mind; but the Christians showed him his soul. They taught that in the sight of God, all souls were equal, that every human life was sacrosanct and inviolate. Where the Greeks had identified the beautiful and the good, had thought ugliness to be bad, had shrunk from disease and imperfection and from everything misshapen, horrible, and repulsive, the Christian sought out the diseased, the crippled, the mutilated, to give them help. Love, for the ancient Greek, was never quite distinguished from Venus. For the Christians held that God was love, it took on deep overtones of sacrifice and compassion." - R. R. Palmer (standard college history text)

"The history of Christianity is inseparable from the history of Western culture and of Western society. For almost a score of centuries Christian beliefs, principles, and ideals have colored the thoughts and feelings of Western man. The traditions and practices have left an indelible impress not only on developments of purely religious interest, but on virtually the total endeavor of man. This has been manifest in art and literature, science and law, politics and economics, and, as well, in love and war. Indeed, the indirect and unconscious influence Christianity has often exercised in avowedly secular matters--social, intellectual, and institutional--affords striking proof of the dynamic forces that have been generated by the faith over the millenniums. Even those who have contested its claims and rejected its tenets have been affected by what they opposed. Whatever our beliefs, all of us today are inevitable heirs to this abundant legacy; and it is impossible to understand the cultural heritage that sustains and conditions our lives without considering the contributions of Christianity."

I was pretty much agreeing with everything you said, until that. YOU may not feel bothered by atheism, but if you think that's the norm everywhere, come spend a year in the southeastern US.

I suppose one good thing Christianity did was to promote art but that propaganda was well worth their money.

If you or anyone else feels abused by christians, why not address your frustrations to those you think are abusing you, be it in the southeast or wherever, instead of those of us here who aren't?

Personally I had enough the time you felt obliged to call gay life style a disease which needed to be eliminated from the gene pool.

I was pretty much agreeing with everything you said, until that. YOU may not feel bothered by atheism, but if you think that's the norm everywhere, come spend a year in the southeastern US.

I said no such thing. In fact I specifically said I didn't think being homosexual was a disease.

As an aside to this, if you're offended by me, why would it make sense to abuse other people because of it? Yet this is what we see time and time again from so many posters.

Boondock, without the church there would have been no renaissance. They were almost single-handedly responsible for the development of western art. They were also the main force behind the development of architecture, engineering, eduation, literacy, health care, psychology, literacy, economics, banking, literature and almost every other spect of our culture.

Your idea that christianity is universally bad is in stark contrast to the historical facts.

It's like people take rare instances and convince themselves this is a regular occurance. :?

Sorry, skip the 'disease' part. I can't see where you draw the line, but I don't mind if you're talking about an (obviously unwanted) 'biological condition' and a disease. Especially not as the only parallels you did draw where your kidney and the Down's syndrom.

Either way it is an insult. Imagine someone argues: Red haired people are unwanted, therefore we should prevent all further generations from being born red haired.

I wonder what would happen if somebody produced an atheism-evengelizing TV show. If I got on the airwaves and preached that there is no God, would there be a backlash?

You know nothing. The renaissnace started because it did, not because the church said so.

Actually, we have such programs here already. Richard Dawkins was given his own huge-budget two part mini series to preach exactly that (in fact it was slightly stronger, the series was called "The Root of All Evil?").

An ex-girlfriend's mother once called me a heathen. :lol: A heathen!

I wonder what would happen if somebody produced an atheism-evengelizing TV show. If I got on the airwaves and preached that there is no God, would there be a backlash?

The "care" responsible consenting adults want comes in the form of respect and equality. That's where PTC's care for gay people goes awry.

For one month, whenever the topic of religion comes up -- regardless of the setting -- mention that you're an atheist and see how non-athiest people treat you. Then come back here and tell me that its all in my head. An ex-girlfriend's mother once called me a heathen. :lol: A heathen! I've stopped telling people I'm an atheist when religion comes up in a face-to-face setting. It's just not worth the trouble.

:idea:
I wonder what would happen if somebody produced an atheism-evengelizing TV show. If I got on the airwaves and preached that there is no God, would there be a backlash?

We don't let people we care about do just anything they want and support them regardless. If we care about them, we try to set them straight when they make choices that are bad for them.

Don't you think that's how PTC's care is expressed?

oh here's a quick and good one

THE CONCISE HISTORY OF THE WESTERN WORLD DATING BACK TO CONSTANTINE

This is my point Jay. How long ago was this? How many times has it happened since?

Boondock, without the church there would have been no renaissance. They were almost single-handedly responsible for the development of western art. They were also the main force behind the development of architecture, engineering, eduation, literacy, health care, psychology, literacy, economics, banking, literature and almost every other spect of our culture.

Your idea that christianity is universally bad is in stark contrast to the historical facts.

How about athiests, do you hate them? Because Hitler certaintly didn't make them look good. And the list goes on...

The folkish-minded man, in particular, has the sacred duty, each in his own denomination, of making people stop just talking superficially of God's will, and actually fulfill God's will, and not let God's word be desecrated. For God's will gave men their form, their essence and their abilities. Anyone who destroys His work is declaring war on the Lord's creation, the divine will.

“Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord.”

And now Staatspräsident Bolz says that Christianity and the Catholic faith are threatened by us. And to that charge I can answer: In the first place it is Christians and not international atheists who now stand at the head of Germany. I do not merely talk of Christianity, no, I also profess that I will never ally myself with the parties which destroy Christianity. If many wish today to take threatened Christianity under their protection, where, I would ask, was Christianity for them in these fourteen years when they went arm in arm with atheism? No, never and at no time was greater internal damage done to Christianity than in these fourteen years when a party, theoretically Christian, sat with those who denied God in one and the same Government.

“We were convinced that the people needs and requires this faith. We have therefore undertaken the fight against the atheistic movement, and that not merely with a few theoretical declarations: we have stamped it out.”

Secular schools can never be tolerated because such schools have no religious instruction, and a general moral instruction without a religious foundation is built on air; consequently, all character training and religion must be derived from faith.

How about athiests, do you hate them? Because Hitler certaintly didn't make them look good. And the list goes on...

The folkish-minded man, in particular, has the sacred duty, each in his own denomination, of making people stop just talking superficially of God's will, and actually fulfill God's will, and not let God's word be desecrated. For God's will gave men their form, their essence and their abilities. Anyone who destroys His work is declaring war on the Lord's creation, the divine will.

“Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord.”

And now Staatspräsident Bolz says that Christianity and the Catholic faith are threatened by us. And to that charge I can answer: In the first place it is Christians and not international atheists who now stand at the head of Germany. I do not merely talk of Christianity, no, I also profess that I will never ally myself with the parties which destroy Christianity. If many wish today to take threatened Christianity under their protection, where, I would ask, was Christianity for them in these fourteen years when they went arm in arm with atheism? No, never and at no time was greater internal damage done to Christianity than in these fourteen years when a party, theoretically Christian, sat with those who denied God in one and the same Government.

“We were convinced that the people needs and requires this faith. We have therefore undertaken the fight against the atheistic movement, and that not merely with a few theoretical declarations: we have stamped it out.”

Secular schools can never be tolerated because such schools have no religious instruction, and a general moral instruction without a religious foundation is built on air; consequently, all character training and religion must be derived from faith.

Maybe I'll do the same, write down the responses and impressions I get and report back.

Maybe I'll do the same, write down the responses and impressions I get and report back.

Hitler may have been many things, but an atheist is not on that list.

Ever wonder why Hilter's "use" of Christianity in his speeches practically disappeared once came into power? Anything after August 2, 1934?

Being an ethical person has basically zero to do with religious faith.

Wow :shock:

Being an ethical person has basically zero to do with religious faith.

It seems like there's a lot of evidence that Hitler was not a Christian. At the same time, I don't think he was an Atheist, either.

Regardless, he seemed to be the living embodiment of evil.

We don't let people we care about do just anything they want and support them regardless. If we care about them, we try to set them straight when they make choices that are bad for them.

Don't you think that's how PTC's care is expressed?

We don't let people we care about do just anything they want and support them regardless. If we care about them, we try to set them straight when they make choices that are bad for them.

Don't you think that's how PTC's care is expressed?

The person is never unwanted. I said that in the thread you're referring to as well. The biological condition they have, however, may well be unwanted.

You'd do well to learn the difference between a person and their actions. It would help you understand my point about homosexuality, and it would help you understand why guys like me and pinktricam continue to post here and care about the people despite the abuse we get for it.

1.) I bet even strictly gay people in average have more children than, say, catholic priests.

most people I know aren't strictly gay (as most aren't strictly straight).

If you tell me that a huge part of my life, a source of fun, satisfaction and self esteem, is 'wrong' and worth being eliminated (for further generations, but still), you are insulting me. Genetic or not.

Mmm, posting pages from an anti-christian hate site. Very mature convincing.

Tell us, why do you hate christianity so much?

The infidelguy is open and honest about his hatred and its roots. I think we'd like to see you explain why you hate and fear christianity so much that it's become an obessession which has almost completely overtaken your posting on this forum.

Even I - and you won't call me religious in any way - could easily spot out a handful of obvious flawed statements in the first article. Enough not to read any further.

On the other hand I could name a few incidents (and threads) of the recent past which are well able to give a cause for the aversion displayed. I never was against religion or christianity, but I'm about to get pretty fed up with people who are trying to tell me my life and/or my view of it is worth less then theirs...

Boondock- do you spend your valuable time fighting muslims? Because some for their fanatical fringes use religion to further their agendas? And the list goes on...

Maybe I should list all the contradictions we find in secular humanism, would that be fun reading for you? The guy that put up that site just shows that he has no real knowleddge of the book he is quoting. Sure some dates don't match, or wieghts don't line up with what we use today, 4000 years later, how does that reflect poorly on the whole book or the whole religious movement? (I only had enough time to glance at one of the "contradiction" threads.) This guy is obvviously uneducated about the Bible, biased, and doesn't care what the facts really say. Boondock, surely you don't align yourself with that, though it appears that way.

So, here is an offer for you, BD, I will buy you a book and send it to you that deals with some of these so called "contradictions". But, I'll only do this if you think you can read with an open mind willing to learn, even if it curbs your preconcieved notions. (I'm not asking you to convert at all.) If that is of no interest to you then go back to reading the sites that only say what you want to hear. Post your response here and you can pm me your address. Nope, I'm not going to tell you the title, my perrogative.

Aaron

2Ti 4:3 -
For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers (or websites) to say what their itching ears want to hear.

Wow :shock:

The guy that put up that site just shows that he has no real knowleddge of the book he is quoting. Sure some dates don't match, or wieghts don't line up with what we use today, 4000 years later, how does that reflect poorly on the whole book or the whole religious movement? (I only had enough time to glance at one of the "contradiction" threads.) This guy is obvviously uneducated about the Bible, biased, and doesn't care what the facts really say. Boondock, surely you don't align yourself with that, though it appears that way.

No. No, No, No, No, NO! That's not how debate works!

It is simply not good enough to respond with, "your argument's crap. Here's mine." The very first thing you need to do is back up your arguments, either with reasoning or with references! Otherwise, things go absolutely nowhere fast.


What my itching ears want to hear is reason, backed up by sound evidence!

Tradman's right. I do fear christianity, just as I fear any other organisation that teaches that to accept without evidence or question is virtuous, and that to question the word of authority is sinful. Our brains are the one thing we have that definitively separates us from the rest of the animal kingdom, and yet everywhere I turn I see people being taught not to think!

That f---ing terrifies me.


Oh, and finally,


You really believe that, don't you?

[The person is never unwanted. I said that in the thread you're referring to as well. The biological condition they have, however, may well be unwanted.

Another thing, slightly off topic but covered here some pages back--Athiests are working off beliefs just as fundamantalist doctrine based religiosos are working off beliefs--but in both cases they say that they "know" in the same sense that we know the sun is round.

And how do they "know" this. . . the question always goes unanswered, and has since Socrates' time.

JL

Devil's Advocacy here Styndall, but only for the sake of the argument.

What evidence would make you change your mind?
I only ask because I do not believe there is sufficient evidence to convince anyone who has examined their faith even in passing that there is (or isn't) a higher power, much less one worth worshipping.

Are you saying that most of the people you know are bi-sexual?

That most have switched teams at one time or another?

I'm sure a lot of smokers would agree. :lol: :lol: :lol:

Well, a verifiable miracle or two might go some way towards it. A revelation, like a burning bush talking to me, or a fiery pillar, something appropriately biblical would convince me that a god exists.

That would be great if we were discussing the care one friend has for another or the care a parent has for a child. But we're talking about billions of people trying to make decisions for millions of people, because they believe the minority is immoral. That is not my definition of care, but it is my definition of self-righteousness. And if it's your definition of care, then thanks, but no thanks. I really don't want that kind of care.

Tradman's right. I do fear christianity, just as I fear any other organisation that teaches that to accept without evidence or question is virtuous, and that to question the word of authority is sinful.

There's no accepted (in the scientific community) evidence that homosexuality is a biological "condition." While there is usually a biological component to most behavioral traits (such as aggressive, shy, intuitive, et al), the biology is not considered the "cause" in and of itself. That's materialism, and also reductionism, and both have been junked years ago as valid arguments. This kind of thinking goes back to Plato's "efficient cause," or the idea that one thing caused another thing.

Athiests are working off beliefs just as fundamantalist doctrine based religiosos are working off beliefs--but in both cases they say that they "know" in the same sense that we know the sun is round.

And how do they "know" this. . . the question always goes unanswered, and has since Socrates' time.

Christianity teaches none of those things and I think you know it.

Every christian has evidence, their own personal experience.

Churches and theologians exist so that the bible and our interpretation of it can be questioned.

I think you know that christianity doesn't teach those things, and I think you know that most christians don't believe them. I think you just use them as an excuse to avoid touching something which you're frightened you might want.

That's your real fear.

:lol:

Glad you liked it!

Again, you may claim you have no interest in christianity, but you keep coming back to it, don't you?

Doesn't it bother you at all that you just don't seem to be able to leave it alone?

Ironically, that's exactly what children say to their parents when they're told they can't do something.

You sound very like I did as a sulky teenager!

:lol:

Not really. Guess I just live in hope that one day somebody will say to me, "hey, you're right! This stuff really is silly. Thanks!"

Do you really consider this a reply to a legit argument or are you just eager to convince the last doubter of your arrogance?

There are christian bookshops in almost every town and city in the western world, each filled with thousands of volumes of proof, theories, evidence and testimony which speak to the existence of God.

Yet you choose to demand evidence which you know doesn't exist.

Be honest, you're not really interested in examining the evidence at all, are you? In fact you'll do almost anything to avoid having to look at it, including pretending that you'll believe if someone provides imaginary evidence which is impossible to provide and which christians never claimed to be able to.

Well, maybe I will!

I have enough doubts about my faith and myself to know that I'm not always right. If my mind isn't open to the possibility of change then what's in it is just dogma.

Can you see the same possibility in yourself?

The idea that you should be allowed to do whatever you want and nobody is allowed to comment on it is not a "legit argument". It's self-centered nonsense.

... billions of people trying to make decisions for millions of people ...

Tell you what - how about you start presenting your arguments by number from now on? You know, just to make things easier for everybody. Yours here would be number 18, for example.

... billions of people trying to make decisions for millions of people ...

This happens every single day. Marijuana is illegal. Smoking is banned in public places. Immigration laws change. The list goes on and on and on. Sometimes you're in the group doing the changing, sometimes you're in the one whose rights are changed.

This is not news.

Oh, and nice invocation of the corollary of 24 by the way.

:lol:

Touché.

Tradman, would you argue that incredible volume's of data makes something true, or even serves as sufficient evidence?

So, here is an offer for you, BD, I will buy you a book and send it to you that deals with some of these so called "contradictions". But, I'll only do this if you think you can read with an open mind willing to learn, even if it curbs your preconcieved notions. (I'm not asking you to convert at all.) If that is of no interest to you then go back to reading the sites that only say what you want to hear. Post your response here and you can pm me your address. Nope, I'm not going to tell you the title, my perrogative.

Aaron

Thorne... Your response is disgusting and is the antithesis of what Jesus taught.

You should be thoroughly ashamed and desperately need to reevaluate your commitment to religion.

Jesus said some good stuff, but western christianity lost sight of it a long time ago. Have fun at Small Group.

Hey Thorne, I got a disgusting response for you.

I've got a stalker. How cute.

Hey Thorne, I got a disgusting response for you. Notice the candy wrappers.

wjca, what does your wife think about your big women fetish?

wjca, what does your wife think about your big women fetish?

There are christian bookshops in almost every town and city in the western world, each filled with thousands of volumes of proof, theories, evidence and testimony which speak to the existence of God.

Yet you choose to demand evidence which you know doesn't exist.

Be honest, you're not really interested in examining the evidence at all, are you? In fact you'll do almost anything to avoid having to look at it, including pretending that you'll believe if someone provides imaginary evidence which is impossible to provide and which christians never claimed to be able to.

Well, a verifiable miracle or two might go some way towards it. A revelation, like a burning bush talking to me, or a fiery pillar, something appropriately biblical would convince me that a god exists.

Your books of personal experience would probably work fine for somebody who is alread convinced, but me, I like my world simple. Reasonable physical explanation take precedence over postulating an invisible sky being what has magical powers. I've read some of your thousands of volumes of proof and evidence and whatnot, and it's mostly unconvincing. It's the same way I've read creation science papers. The arguments they put forth or so simple and wrong-headed that they can be smashed to bits by any passably-educated layman.

It seems like you are only willing to accept God's existance with firsthand proof.

How much of the physical world do you accept as fact on the word of others? Do you (basically) believe in the Big Bang theory? What are you beliefs on the origin of our planet? On the origins of life?

Same trick again.

Instead of actually considering the evidence, you make up something christians don't actually believe in - "an invisible sky being what has magical powers" - and attack it, then declare that you've proven the evidence is false.

You haven't. All you've disproved is a fantasy which you created for exactly that purpose, in order to avoid addressing the actual evidence I'm talking about.

"Invisible sky being with magical powers" is a bit of a silly epithet, but whatever. The Christian God is claimed to have performed miracles in great numbers in the old days, speaking from burning bushes, making many loaves and fishes out of few, turning water to wine, etc. etc.. Yet today, we have to be satisfied with the occasional claim of healing someone quite sick, which happens often enough without religious claiming that its easy to doubt.

The thresh-hold for believing in the Christian God is higher still, especially since it looks a lot like the commonly disbelieved mythologies of hundreds of other cultures, world-wide.

It might well be comforting to take the view that the most powerful being in the universe cares about everything you do for your entire life, but that's also profoundly self-centered, and the rest of the universe is distinctly not centered around me. Such a self-centered world view seems likely to be a sort of comforting wishful thinking.

Likewise, it seems that just the happenstance of history that Christianity gains primacy now. Other religions have held sway in their times, and doubtless yet others will take their place in the future.

Do you have any examples that have had the longevity and/or number of followers of Christianity, from "mythologies of hundreds of other cultures, world-wide"?

I'm amazed that some people can understand what is involved in having a Christian faith, and then construe the polar opposite of it's significance.

Primacy now? You mean compared to the 1900s? 1800s? 1700s? How long ago was this not the case?

You seem intent on looking for exceptions to punch holes in the obvious. :wink:

Unicorns? Stamp collecting? Pederasty?

Well, the population explosion in recent centuries rules out a raw numbers comparison, though if you want to play a popularity contest, I expect the Hindu religion or Buddhism to bring numbers quite close to the fore. And the Vedic religion, which forms the basis for that of the Hindu (c.f. religion of Abraham against modern Judaism and Christianity) is at least as old, probably older than the semitic religions.

Historically speaking, religions come and go.

The practices of the Greeks and Romans, for instance, the tree knowledge of the Celts, the animism of the First Peoples of the American continents.

I'm a historical linguist. I'm looking at things on the scale of time since humans invented writing. Christianity only recently widespread on that scale of time.

I'm not looking for exceptions. I'm looking for the broad patterns of human existence. Despite vast differences in time and space, the human experience is quite similar everywhere.

And as to the unicorns business, think of ghosts or vampires or hydras or any of thousands upon thousands of the monsters of myth.

The problem is that people expect the infinite to be revealed to them without so much as setting down the beer in their hand. In other words, they want everthing for nothing. But it don't work that way in my experience.

JL

Yes, I am a lawyer and I have some moral decency. Don't act so surprised.

How about a fat guy in a box?

Good grief.

I'm spending my days reading the texts of the Western World's oldest religions in their original languages, and you're saying I'm trying to get my experience for nothing?

Anyway, I'm offering you a whole book, for free, that has plenty of proofs in it, researched by experts in their field. The question is are you open minded enough to read it or not? I don't think so, so prove me wrong.

These threads are like the movie "Groundhog Day". Same crap over and over...

These threads are like the movie "Groundhog Day". Same crap over and over...

Oh, you were talking to me? I thought you were talking to Boondock Saint. Sure, I'll read your book. I'll even review it for you. But, rather than make you go through the trouble of sending it all the way down here to the arse end of the world, how about you just give me the title and authors and I'll look it up for myself?

Bob is right about this, you know. To gain any ground you have to move outside the regular arguments or it's back to square one every time.

JL

To gain any ground in this argument you need god to say "I exist now stop being asses to each other" to every human being at the same time. If the whole world heard the same sentence (in their language of choice) at the same time, there wouldn't be many disbelievers left. People would still argue over which god spoke to everybody but that's a differant argument. It would take this god something like 1 minute of effort (ok maybe 10 minutes if the sentence should be drafted up first). Until this happens, I and countless others, will either believe that there is no god, or if there is he doesn't give a rats ass about what happens here and therefore does not deserve our worship.