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Potter Climbs Delicate Arch
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ullr


May 9, 2006, 12:58 AM
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Potter Climbs Delicate Arch
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Legal, not really. The park service employee interviewed said no named arch in the park is legal to be climbed.

Thanks for the great impression you are leaving for the rest of us climbers. :roll:

In reply to:
Delicate Arch climb has park chief red in the face
By Lisa J. Church
Special to The Tribune





Dean Potter climbs Delicate Arch, one of the most popular sandstone arches, at Arches National Park early Sunday. Authorities are not amused. (Photo courtesy of Dean Potter)

MOAB - For almost 12 years, Dean Potter studied the tiny cracks and crevices in Delicate Arch, searching out potential fingerholds and footholds that could aid his ascent of Utah's most famous icon.
On Sunday morning, Potter, a professional climber known for his speed and agility, put that research to the test, successfully scaling the 45-foot monument "free solo" - without the aid of ropes and other climbing gear. But the 34-year-old part-time Moab resident's achievement doesn't sit well with National Park Service officials and some fellow climbing enthusiasts.
"I'm very sorry to see someone do this to Utah's most visible icon," said the park's superintendent, Laura Joss. "I would just ask if they think it's a good idea to encourage this."
Potter believed that as long as he used no fixed anchors and did not damage the rock, he was free to climb Delicate Arch.
Not so, says Joss.
It was an idea that Potter, a climbing ambassador for outdoor-gear company Patagonia, could not get out of his head.
"For the past four years or so, I've been going up there kind of obsessively and looking at it in every possible light," Potter said Tuesday. "When I realized I was going to try this, I started going out to it more and more frequently."
Feeling his way along the rock face early Sunday morning, Potter inched his way to the top of Delicate Arch, stood on the flat, wide shelf and looked out over the Moab Valley.
"This was one of the most beautiful climbs I've ever done," Potter said. "For me, it was just an overwhelming experience, as if the formation was vibrating with energy."
Once atop the arch, Potter lowered a string to retrieve a climbing rope to make his descent. He says he climbed Delicate Arch "several times in a two-hour period." Even one time is too many, Joss said.
"The intent of our [regulations] is that all named arches are closed to climbing," Joss said. "If the compendium is found not to be sufficient, we will work with our solicitor posthaste to put a closure on Delicate Arch immediately."
Arches allows climbing


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Advertisement


---------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------



in some areas, and Joss said that in the past climbers have respected the rules, which include prohibitions on climbing the park's most famous rock formations.
Matt Moore, owner of Desert Highlights, a climbing outfitter in Moab, said he has always understood that park regulations prohibit climbing on Delicate Arch.
"Probably every climber looks at it and thinks it would be great to climb Delicate Arch," Moore said. "On the one hand, it was probably a great ascent for Dean, but at the same time, I can't condone it because it is against park regulations."
Patagonia's publicity department initially alerted the media to Potter's ascent, but indicated it may back off on further promotions after learning that Potter may have broken park service regulations.
His Delicate Arch ascent marks the second time in as many years that Potter has come to the attention of Arches officials. The park recently changed its regulations to prohibit "slacklining" - a sport in which flexible nylon rope is stretched between two points, often over a steep fissure, and walked like a tightrope - after Potter slacklined the Three Gossips, another well-known rock formation in the park, Joss said.
Potter said he took great care to leave Delicate Arch undisturbed, and he is unapologetic about undertaking the challenge.
"I am very conscientious about following nature's rules. I respected the arch to the fullest. I did no more than blow a little dust off a few handholds," Potter said. "What has our world come to if we cannot join nature by climbing one of nature's most beautiful features?"
_________________


dru


May 9, 2006, 1:34 AM
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Gee how many famous climbers with the initials DP live in Moab :lol:


toejam


May 9, 2006, 1:40 AM
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Yeah, anyone who climbs something without permission should be shot!


sbaclimber


May 9, 2006, 1:45 AM
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According to the thread linked to in the OP, someone in Utah should have seen the report on the nightly news.........anyone?
As far as I can tell, it would have been 'brought to you by Steve Baron, the weather guy' :P


ullr


May 9, 2006, 1:52 AM
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In reply to:
According to the thread linked to in the OP, someone in Utah should have seen the report on the nightly news.........anyone?
As far as I can tell, it would have been 'brought to you by Steve Baron, the weather guy' :P

I live in SLC and know Mr. Baron. I will watch the show, tape it, and possible post it here.

I hope they had permission. Otherwise we will be taking a step backwards in access.

I kind of would assume they would have permission, if Steve is interviewing them.


sbaclimber


May 9, 2006, 1:55 AM
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In reply to:
In reply to:
According to the thread linked to in the OP, someone in Utah should have seen the report on the nightly news.........anyone?
As far as I can tell, it would have been 'brought to you by Steve Baron, the weather guy' :P

I live in SLC and know Mr. Baron. I will watch the show, tape it, and possible post it here.

I hope they had permission. Otherwise we will be taking a step backwards in access.

I kind of would assume they would have permission, if Steve is interviewing them.
I would most certainly hope so as well, though Steve didn't say one way or the other in the TetonGravity thread.
I just can't image the NPS giving permission for something like that though.

Edit, and thanks for keeping an eye out for the report (and potentially providing a vid of it).


roseraie


May 9, 2006, 3:29 AM
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In reply to:
...the inconsiderate asshat should be hung by his testicles from the arch. Thanks for potentially screwing up access issues in an already sensitive area.

I'll hazard a guess that climbing the arch to string someone up by their testicles would probably not help your access issues much. :twisted:


ullr


May 9, 2006, 3:50 AM
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The ranger stated no arch that is named in the park can be climbed. Legality sounded marginal in the TV report.


musicman


May 9, 2006, 3:52 AM
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i just saw the news report on Potter's climb. The ranger they interviewed seemed pretty upset, but he didn't break any laws, from what they said it seemed he more manipulated the law than anything else. i'm not sure exactly, wasn't all that clear. they did interview dean, he haid some good things to say. had some cool footage too of him on it. looked well within his comfort level. i think it was a pretty cool feet, hopefully it doesn't screw up access issues or cause too much drama.


ullr


May 9, 2006, 3:53 AM
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Re: Ass Hat Potter Climbs Delicate Arch [In reply to]
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From the Arches NP website.

In reply to:
Regulations

Use of motorized drills is prohibited.
Climbing is prohibited on any arch identified on current USGS 7.5 minute topographical maps; on Balanced Rock year-round; on Bubo from January 1st to June 30th; on Industrial Disease on the Devil Dog Spire from January 1st to June 30th.
The use of chalk for climbing must be of a color which blends with the native rock.

Thanks Potter, for so visually giving climbers a bad reputation in the park. And thanks to the tool from the climbing shop who thought his climb should be praised. :roll:


ullr


May 9, 2006, 3:55 AM
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In reply to:
i just saw the news report on Potter's climb. The ranger they interviewed seemed pretty upset, but he didn't break any laws, from what they said it seemed he more manipulated the law than anything else. i'm not sure exactly, wasn't all that clear. they did interview dean, he haid some good things to say. had some cool footage too of him on it. looked well within his comfort level. i think it was a pretty cool feet, hopefully it doesn't screw up access issues or cause too much drama.

Are you kidding me? Sure, he may have manipulated the law. But do we need manipulation on Fox13 news? Do we need a selfish climber fucking access up? Using WHITE chalk on the route?


ullr


May 9, 2006, 3:57 AM
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Let me requote or those who don't get it.

In reply to:
Regulations


Climbing is prohibited on any arch identified on current USGS 7.5 minute topographical maps;

The use of chalk for climbing must be of a color which blends with the native rock.

If nothing else, he used white chalk on THE most popular visual piece of the park, and did it on Fox13 news. Great publicity for us all.


curt


May 9, 2006, 4:00 AM
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In reply to:
Let me requote or those who don't get it.

In reply to:
Regulations


Climbing is prohibited on any arch identified on current USGS 7.5 minute topographical maps;

The use of chalk for climbing must be of a color which blends with the native rock.

If nothing else, he used white chalk on THE most popular visual piece of the park, and did it on Fox13 news. Great publicity for us all.

Isn't white the usual color of bird shit? How more natural can you get? :D

Curt


musicman


May 9, 2006, 4:01 AM
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no no no! of course not, i was just stating what i saw. all i knew i heard from mr steve baron. the white chalk thing is pretty bad. i didn't mean to come across like that at all. it was a cool thing to do, but not under those circumstances. manipulation is no good, especially not within the climbing community, especially not being played all over tv. i was just saying what i saw on the news. i wasn't aware of the white chalk thing either. makes sense, definitley.


cintune


May 9, 2006, 12:41 PM
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Cravin' choke puppy, DP.


mackavus


May 9, 2006, 1:23 PM
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In reply to:
BLAH,BLAH,BLAH


ullr


May 9, 2006, 1:27 PM
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Delicate Arch climb has park chief red in the face
By Lisa J. Church
Special to The Tribune





Dean Potter climbs Delicate Arch, one of the most popular sandstone arches, at Arches National Park early Sunday. Authorities are not amused. (Photo courtesy of Dean Potter)

MOAB - For almost 12 years, Dean Potter studied the tiny cracks and crevices in Delicate Arch, searching out potential fingerholds and footholds that could aid his ascent of Utah's most famous icon.
On Sunday morning, Potter, a professional climber known for his speed and agility, put that research to the test, successfully scaling the 45-foot monument "free solo" - without the aid of ropes and other climbing gear. But the 34-year-old part-time Moab resident's achievement doesn't sit well with National Park Service officials and some fellow climbing enthusiasts.
"I'm very sorry to see someone do this to Utah's most visible icon," said the park's superintendent, Laura Joss. "I would just ask if they think it's a good idea to encourage this."
Potter believed that as long as he used no fixed anchors and did not damage the rock, he was free to climb Delicate Arch.
Not so, says Joss.
It was an idea that Potter, a climbing ambassador for outdoor-gear company Patagonia, could not get out of his head.
"For the past four years or so, I've been going up there kind of obsessively and looking at it in every possible light," Potter said Tuesday. "When I realized I was going to try this, I started going out to it more and more frequently."
Feeling his way along the rock face early Sunday morning, Potter inched his way to the top of Delicate Arch, stood on the flat, wide shelf and looked out over the Moab Valley.
"This was one of the most beautiful climbs I've ever done," Potter said. "For me, it was just an overwhelming experience, as if the formation was vibrating with energy."
Once atop the arch, Potter lowered a string to retrieve a climbing rope to make his descent. He says he climbed Delicate Arch "several times in a two-hour period." Even one time is too many, Joss said.
"The intent of our [regulations] is that all named arches are closed to climbing," Joss said. "If the compendium is found not to be sufficient, we will work with our solicitor posthaste to put a closure on Delicate Arch immediately."
Arches allows climbing


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Advertisement


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



in some areas, and Joss said that in the past climbers have respected the rules, which include prohibitions on climbing the park's most famous rock formations.
Matt Moore, owner of Desert Highlights, a climbing outfitter in Moab, said he has always understood that park regulations prohibit climbing on Delicate Arch.
"Probably every climber looks at it and thinks it would be great to climb Delicate Arch," Moore said. "On the one hand, it was probably a great ascent for Dean, but at the same time, I can't condone it because it is against park regulations."
Patagonia's publicity department initially alerted the media to Potter's ascent, but indicated it may back off on further promotions after learning that Potter may have broken park service regulations.
His Delicate Arch ascent marks the second time in as many years that Potter has come to the attention of Arches officials. The park recently changed its regulations to prohibit "slacklining" - a sport in which flexible nylon rope is stretched between two points, often over a steep fissure, and walked like a tightrope - after Potter slacklined the Three Gossips, another well-known rock formation in the park, Joss said.
Potter said he took great care to leave Delicate Arch undisturbed, and he is unapologetic about undertaking the challenge.
"I am very conscientious about following nature's rules. I respected the arch to the fullest. I did no more than blow a little dust off a few handholds," Potter said. "What has our world come to if we cannot join nature by climbing one of nature's most beautiful features?"


ullr


May 9, 2006, 1:28 PM
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In reply to:
In reply to:
BLAH,BLAH,BLAH

http://www.frontiernet.net/...hread%20congrats.jpg

Congratulations on your worshipping of your hero and his potential limiting of YOURs and others privelege of climbing in Arches. :roll:

Maybe you could get some kneepads, and continue sucking.


killclimbz


May 9, 2006, 1:32 PM
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In reply to:

Isn't white the usual color of bird s---? How more natural can you get? :D

Curt


HA! :righton:


mackavus


May 9, 2006, 1:33 PM
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[quote="ullr"]
In reply to:
In reply to:
BLAH,BLAH,BLAH


Congratulations on your worshipping of your hero and his potential limiting of YOURs and others privelege of climbing in Arches. :roll:

Maybe you could get some kneepads, and continue sucking.

Ummm, when did I said Dean Potter was my hero?


ullr


May 9, 2006, 1:34 PM
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In reply to:
In reply to:

Isn't white the usual color of bird s---? How more natural can you get? :D

Curt


HA! :righton:

Impressions last longer than chalk.

Curt, you fight for your precious bouldering in Queen Creek to keep it from the mining, but you could care less about Arches?


Partner j_ung


May 9, 2006, 1:34 PM
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This is not Community. Please elevate the discourse accordingly.

RC.com


Partner j_ung


May 9, 2006, 1:38 PM
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This is not Community. Please elevate the discourse accordingly. Ullr, would you please consider changing your thread title to reflect my request?

RC.com


killclimbz


May 9, 2006, 1:41 PM
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Obviously you enjoy climbing at Arches and Dean's actions have your feathers ruffled. Be happy that it was Dean Potter that pulled this stupid stunt and not a bunch of no name climbers. It holds us as a group much less responsible. As I said on the TGR thread, if others decide to do this then you have a problem. I don't think people in the climbing community are going to do this.

Much like like what's his name John Thesenga(?) from climbing magazine, climbing up a formation at J-tree and pouring gas down a slab and lighting it on fire. The repercussions fell on him and not the climbing community as a whole.

It's lame that he climbed it. Right now all indications are that the Park Service is pissed at DP and not the climbing community as a whole.


Partner j_ung


May 9, 2006, 1:41 PM
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Thank you. :)


ullr


May 9, 2006, 1:48 PM
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In reply to:
Right now all indications are that the Park Service is pissed at DP and not the climbing community as a whole.

Fine, maybe the park won't change it's regulations. And maybe I'm the only one who is disturbed.

But in the end, the climbing community doesn't make the regulations, the park officials do. And it's alot harder to reverse restrictions than it is to tread lightly and keep the current priveleges intact.

I don't defecate in my backyard, and I would hope other climbers would realize it stinks when they do so, and it's not fun cleaning up the resulting mess.


nuts_r_us


May 9, 2006, 2:00 PM
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What a dick.

If Potter was so convinced it was okay to do, he shouldn't have had a problem with asking the superintendent first to find out for sure.

Pissed about it? Call Patagonia and any other Potter sponsors and tell them you are boycotting their product and why. Anybody know who else sponsors him?


rockprodigy


May 9, 2006, 2:05 PM
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You're not the only one who is dissapointed.


killclimbz


May 9, 2006, 2:11 PM
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In reply to:
In reply to:
Right now all indications are that the Park Service is pissed at DP and not the climbing community as a whole.

Fine, maybe the park won't change it's regulations. And maybe I'm the only one who is disturbed.

But in the end, the climbing community doesn't make the regulations, the park officials do. And it's alot harder to reverse restrictions than it is to tread lightly and keep the current priveleges intact.

I don't defecate in my backyard, and I would hope other climbers would realize it stinks when they do so, and it's not fun cleaning up the resulting mess.

I agree. If people in the climbing community start to think that climbing Natural Arch is a cool thing to do then we have a problem.


mackavus


May 9, 2006, 2:13 PM
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This is not Community. Please elevate the discourse accordingly. Ullr, would you please consider changing your thread title to reflect my request?

RC.com

To comply with J_ung's request, I will explain the reason for the Gay Thread pic.

What is your goal? Exactly what are you trying to accomplish here? My reason for the picture was not to defend Dean Potter, but to insult this thread and all threads like this in general. While I have mixed feelings about the entire situation, and although this may actually belong in "World Climbing News," I feel that creating a thread like this is just the first snowflake in an entire avalanche of lame, uninformed comments. I do not mean to insult the website here, but especially on RC.com. The "philosophers" are going to come out of the woodwork on this one.

I think that Killclimbz made come great points, but we all know that isn’t going to last. This thread is doomed. I could be partly to blame for that sure, but since I didn’t like this topic from the start, I guess I don’t care so much.

I actually am not "happy" that Potter did this, but I can understand his reasons. I do not necessarily "agree" with his reasons, but I can see why he did this.

(PS - The "Call Pata and tell them you are boycotting thier gear" comment was sickening)


Happy Flaming!

Peace. :D


ullr


May 9, 2006, 2:18 PM
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^^^^My initial thread title was a knee jerk reflex from last night. It has since been edited. Sorry for the lack of composure in that arena.

I think the issue is bigger than the thread title.


feanor007


May 9, 2006, 2:18 PM
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there goes my hero
watch him as he goes


krusher4


May 9, 2006, 2:23 PM
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Where the pic?


ullr


May 9, 2006, 2:25 PM
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If you doubt the parks high priority on conservation and visitor impacts, go visit the Fiery Furnace, when it's entry isn't being led by rangers.

-They make you sign out.
-Watch a 20+ minute video on low impact travel (walking on rocks-staying in washes-leaving no trace)
-They even go so far as to tell you to keep your voices down.

If this type of strict conservation doesn't tip you off on the possible impacts of climbing Delicate Arch, then you aren't very alert to your surroundings.


ullr


May 9, 2006, 2:28 PM
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Folks get all up in arms over bolts at certain crags, bolt chopping, etc. But can't realize the possible consequences of pissing off park officials on multiple occasions.

Double standard?


jakedatc


May 9, 2006, 2:29 PM
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Mack.. first.. i think J_ung should have addressed you instead of Ullr. Your posts are not helpful to this thread.

this is an access issue in the Moab region... illegally climbing places will only piss off the land managers and cause everyone to lose out. they could say "no climbing on any arch. period." and because of one person everyone would be effected.

Edit: i'd compare it to someone going out to Skytop at the gunks to shoot a commercial without asking the owners first.

as far as the Patagonia thing... i agree.. If they filmed him doing it for advertising purposes then they are trying to profit from him tresspassing. That should not be tolerated. Hopefully the park won't allow them to use the footage


mackavus


May 9, 2006, 2:37 PM
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Re: Ass Hat Potter Climbs Delicate Arch [In reply to]
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In reply to:
Mack.. first.. i think J_ung should have addressed you instead of Ullr. Your posts are not helpful to this thread.

The original title of this thread was "Asshat Potter Climbs...etc."

My response of "gayness" was directly related to that title. Ullr has explained his position, and I have explained mine. You can find these at the bottom of page two. While I am just making my headache bigger by saying this, I dont think ANY POSTS are going to be HELPFUL to a THREAD LIKE THIS.

Ullr, I see why you had such a reaction about this and I will edit my post to kill the pic. Its the least I can do since you edited your title.


brianinslc


May 9, 2006, 2:46 PM
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In reply to:
this is an access issue in the Moab region... illegally climbing places will only piss off the land managers and cause everyone to lose out. they could say "no climbing on any arch. period." and because of one person everyone would be effected.

Ugh. I think its pretty common knowledge that named arches in Arches are off limits to climbing. Has been since I started climbing in Arches in the mid eighties.

Pretty high profile stunt. And, filmed, of course. I always get a kick out of these stunts, especially where the person that does them conveys some sort of spiritual connection or special-ness associated with the event. Seems diminished when it shows up on film. This could have been done low profile and privately. Also, other un named arches aren't off limits. Ugh. Selfish, IMHO.

No way Patagonia was involved. This could (and probably will) have a huge effect on their sponsership of maybe even both of them. I wonder, with the benefit of hindsite, if it'll be worth it.

Arch climbing used to be very popular, back in the 30's and on into the 50's and 60's. There's even a guidebook to the arches in Arches, written by Gerry Roach. Info below.

-Brian in SLC

Why would anyone want to climb an arch? Well, clearly arches have a lot of power and therefore it must be good to walk across them. It must be something about overcoming all that air. Volcanoes have a lot of power too, but arches are more easily done in shorts and tennis shoes and obviously that is a plus. Anyone who prefers wool pants and stiff boots should toss this book and head for Mt. St. Helens.
– Gerry Roach - from Arch Bagger

Arch Bagger
– A Scrambler’s Guide to Arches National Park

Gerry self-published Arch Bagger, his first book, in 1982. The 5.5 x 8.25 inch, soft-cover, 70-page guide describes scrambling routes to the top of 39 named arches plus the standard route to the top of Elephant Butte, the highest point in Arches National Park. The book has 21 black-and-white photographs and 18 illustrations. The guide describes how to get on top of the arches, but not how to find them. Gerry wrote Arch Bagger in a light-hearted, tongue-in-cheek style to make the book more about being free and exploring than about particular deeds.

After Gerry produced Arch Bagger, the National Park Service defined new rules for climbing in Arches National Park. Climbing is prohibited on any arch identified on current USGS 7.5 minute topographical maps but, with a few exceptions, is permitted elsewhere. This rule affects 16 of the 39 arches described in Arch Bagger. Presumably, it is legal to visit the tops of the other 23 arches described in Arch Bagger. Gerry doesn’t know how the park defines “climbing.” In his world, hiking is movement with a difficulty of Class 1 or Class 2, scrambling is movement with a difficulty of Class 3 and climbing is movement with a difficulty of Class 4 or Class 5. Using this definition, 4 of the 16 arches described in Arch Bagger on which climbing is prohibited are still accessible. Gerry has not pursued the matter with the park service, and it is best to err on the side of caution in this environmentally sensitive area.

Gerry printed a mere 300 copies of Arch Bagger, the tiny tome is long out of print, and it is very scarce.


ullr


May 9, 2006, 3:25 PM
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In reply to:
Pretty high profile stunt. And, filmed, of course. I always get a kick out of these stunts, especially where the person that does them conveys some sort of spiritual connection or special-ness associated with the event. Seems diminished when it shows up on film. This could have been done low profile and privately. Also, other un named arches aren't off limits. Ugh. Selfish, IMHO.

If he would have just climbed it sans publicity, sans park knowing about it, fine.

I'm just a little upset that it was documented by the media, and the park is fully aware of it. The media's coverage has undoubtable brought this beyond the park and climbers attention, and to the general publics attention with a somewhat negative tone to it.


valeberga


May 9, 2006, 3:25 PM
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He used chalk? What a p***y little sporto.


wzrdgandalf


May 9, 2006, 3:31 PM
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Im not mad at DP but mad at patagonia for alerting the media about it. How dumb can you be? They should have known what problems it would cause.

Where are the pics?


adklimber


May 9, 2006, 3:32 PM
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In reply to:
brianinslc wrote:

Pretty high profile stunt. And, filmed, of course. I always get a kick out of these stunts, especially where the person that does them conveys some sort of spiritual connection or special-ness associated with the event. Seems diminished when it shows up on film. This could have been done low profile and privately. Also, other un named arches aren't off limits. Ugh. Selfish, IMHO.

I agree with this. I actually liked his reasoning for doing the climb, but it seems there is the pleasing the sponsor, self-notoriety, "look at me" motive going on.

With this said, it is easy to fall into this after a big accomplishment.


dingus


May 9, 2006, 3:33 PM
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In reply to:

Thanks Potter, for so visually giving climbers a bad reputation in the park. And thanks to the tool from the climbing shop who thought his climb should be praised. :roll:

Thus the free spirit of climbing is chained by corporate rule makers and their drones.

Fuck THAT!

I'm tired of this ambassador bullshit. I don't want none a yall button down, cardigan wearing Yale types representing me.

DMT


ullr


May 9, 2006, 4:33 PM
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In reply to:
In reply to:

Thanks Potter, for so visually giving climbers a bad reputation in the park. And thanks to the tool from the climbing shop who thought his climb should be praised. :roll:

Thus the free spirit of climbing is chained by corporate rule makers and their drones.

f--- THAT!

I'm tired of this ambassador s---. I don't want none a yall button down, cardigan wearing Yale types representing me.

DMT

It's got nothing to do with ambassadorship, I could give a shit who climbed it. Fact is, it was climbed, and the park was pissed about it.

Free spirit of climbing in ARCHES, is chained to some degree by Uncle Sam. Like it or not.

This isn't the 1970's fantasy land you're living in. We have potential consequences for our actions.

Remember Hueco? Used to be a great place in the good 'ol days.


sierramike


May 9, 2006, 4:43 PM
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This guy is an ambassador for OUR sport (read: not only HIS love of nature, movement, etc.)? I hardly think so.

Just another scenario when a climber had the chance to shine in the eyes of a land manager and failed. Every place we climb has a land manager. Every place. These are the people we ALL must keep happy. Special use permits are issued for various situations. They could have issued one here and probably would have is this guy said they were filming something, low to zero impact, respect for the area, etc. Yet, he maintained his selfishness and did it solely for himself without regard to future climbers and their relationship with land managers.

I'm not naive enough to believe we don't all climb for ourselves, however, in today's society in which we all live (this guy more than others as he's sponsored, a "representative") we must work with others if we wish to continue climbing, kayaking, backcountry skiing, and every other outdoor venture that we live for. This guy definitely didn't do us any favors.

Just my .02.


wyomingclimber


May 9, 2006, 4:44 PM
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Dean Potter climbs Delicate Arch... [In reply to]
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Got this from the Access fund. If you have any plans to ever climb in Arches, you might want to contact Patagonia and let them know your feelings. In my exprience with the park service, there is no winning with them. It only takes one grandstanding jackass (and his personal photographer) to blow it for everyone.

http://www.patagonia.com/custserv/contact_us.shtml?src=botnav

From the access fund:

The hits just keep coming from the Dean Potter show – first thumbing his nose at the NPS re slacklining in the 3 Gossips – and now this – EVERYONE knows this is illegal – he must be really interested in provoking them – Potter: the human climbing access issue



Delicate Arch climb has park chief red in the face

By Lisa J. Church
Special to The Tribune


Dean Potter climbs Delicate Arch, one of the most popular sandstone arches, at Arches National Parkearly Sunday. Authorities are not amused. (Photo courtesy of Dean Potter)


MOAB - For almost 12 years, Dean Potter studied the tiny cracks and crevices in Delicate Arch, searching out potential fingerholds and footholds that could aid his ascent of Utah's most famous icon.
On Sunday morning, Potter, a professional climber known for his speed and agility, put that research to the test, successfully scaling the 45-foot monument "free solo" - without the aid of ropes and other climbing gear. But the 34-year-old part-time Moab resident's achievement doesn't sit well with National Park Service officials and some fellow climbing enthusiasts.
"I'm very sorry to see someone do this to Utah's most visible icon," said the park's superintendent, Laura Joss. "I would just ask if they think it's a good idea to encourage this."
Potter believed that as long as he used no fixed anchors and did not damage the rock, he was free to climb Delicate Arch.
Not so, says Joss.
It was an idea that Potter, a climbing ambassador for outdoor-gear company Patagonia, could not get out of his head.
"For the past four years or so, I've been going up there kind of obsessively and looking at it in every possible light," Potter said Tuesday. "When I realized I was going to try this, I started going out to it more and more frequently."
Feeling his way along the rock face early Sunday morning, Potter inched his way to the top of Delicate Arch, stood on the flat, wide shelf and looked out over the Moab Valley.
"This was one of the most beautiful climbs I've ever done," Potter said. "For me, it was just an overwhelming experience, as if the formation was vibrating with energy."
Once atop the arch, Potter lowered a string to retrieve a climbing rope to make his descent. He says he climbed Delicate Arch "several times in a two-hour period." Even one time is too many, Joss said.
"The intent of our [regulations] is that all named arches are closed to climbing," Joss said. "If the compendium is found not to be sufficient, we will work with our solicitor posthaste to put a closure on Delicate Arch immediately."
Arches allows climbing in some areas, and Joss said that in the past climbers have respected the rules, which include prohibitions on climbing the park's most famous rock formations.
Matt Moore, owner of Desert Highlights, a climbing outfitter in Moab, said he has always understood that park regulations prohibit climbing on Delicate Arch.
"Probably every climber looks at it and thinks it would be great to climb Delicate Arch," Moore said. "On the one hand, it was probably a great ascent for Dean, but at the same time, I can't condone it because it is against park regulations."
Patagonia's publicity department initially alerted the media to Potter's ascent, but indicated it may back off on further promotions after learning that Potter may have broken park service regulations.
His Delicate Arch ascent marks the second time in as many years that Potter has come to the attention of Arches officials. The park recently changed its regulations to prohibit "slacklining" - a sport in which flexible nylon rope is stretched between two points, often over a steep fissure, and walked like a tightrope - after Potter slacklined the Three Gossips, another well-known rock formation in the park, Joss said.
Potter said he took great care to leave Delicate Arch undisturbed, and he is unapologetic about undertaking the challenge.
"I am very conscientious about following nature's rules. I respected the arch to the fullest. I did no more than blow a little dust off a few handholds," Potter said. "What has our world come to if we cannot join nature by climbing one of nature's most beautiful features?"


ullr


May 9, 2006, 4:47 PM
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I wonder if the 'film crew' had a permit to film in the NPS? For some reason, I doubt they did.

But I bet we'll still see this footage next year.


sidepull


May 9, 2006, 4:48 PM
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Obviously I'm coming to this post post-edits and so some of the discussion is confusing because the context has changed. I'm glad the moderators have tried to help tone things down so that we can have a reasonable discussion. To that end, I completely disagree with Mackavus - this type of topic is precisely the reason for the existence of an online community, so that we can discuss and better understand issues that we all face.

Here are my thoughts:

1) Potter's ascent seems more ego driven than most bolting and chipping. I have definitely lost respect for him because his climb shows a lack of respect for the climbing community and the community at large.

2) Using white chalk on Delicate Arch is plain tacky and just begs others to repeat the stunt.

3) There are hints in other posts that Patagonia some how sponsored this climb? Is there any evidence of this? At the very least I think this stunt should cause Patagonia to question their sponsorship of Potter - I don't think he's a good advocate for their values. If Patagonia is at all complicit in the climb (i.e. involved in filming, using photographs in upcoming catalogues, etc.) then they too have lost some of my respect as a company.


ullr


May 9, 2006, 4:49 PM
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If his acent was filmed commercially, then the videographers need permits to film in the park.

Wonder if they obtained such a permit?


tavs


May 9, 2006, 4:51 PM
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In reply to:
In reply to:

Thanks Potter, for so visually giving climbers a bad reputation in the park. And thanks to the tool from the climbing shop who thought his climb should be praised. :roll:

Thus the free spirit of climbing is chained by corporate rule makers and their drones.

f--- THAT!

I'm tired of this ambassador s---. I don't want none a yall button down, cardigan wearing Yale types representing me.

DMT

When he brought the film crew along and publicized the event, he made himself an ambassador of some kind.


boymeetsrock


May 9, 2006, 4:54 PM
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Re: Dean Potter climbs Delicate Arch... [In reply to]
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Way to set an example Dean.

What a D i c k. :evil:


jakedatc


May 9, 2006, 5:04 PM
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there is already a thread about this..... :roll:


dingus


May 9, 2006, 5:05 PM
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In reply to:
This isn't the 1970's fantasy land you're living in. We have potential consequences for our actions.

Remember Hueco? Used to be a great place in the good 'ol days.

I deserved that, but I live in no fantasy land. I live in 2006 when a so-called conservative president wants to sell off millions of acres of public land to pay his war debts.

In that climate, I just do not care if Potter climbs Washington's Nose on Rushmore either.

DMT

ps. If Sherman hadn't advertised Hueco and brought in the masses, quien sabe?


jakedatc


May 9, 2006, 5:12 PM
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there is already a thread about this..... :roll: :roll:


imove2fast


May 9, 2006, 5:12 PM
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Does anyone have access to the video footage or the photos? I hope it never sees a repeat, but I also would have liked to have been there to see him do it.


sidepull


May 9, 2006, 5:26 PM
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In reply to:
ps. If Sherman hadn't advertised Hueco and brought in the masses, quien sabe?

isn't this exactly what potter did - advertise?


tarzan420


May 9, 2006, 5:28 PM
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In reply to:
3) There are hints in other posts that Patagonia some how sponsored this climb? Is there any evidence of this? At the very least I think this stunt should cause Patagonia to question their sponsorship of Potter - I don't think he's a good advocate for their values. If Patagonia is at all complicit in the climb (i.e. involved in filming, using photographs in upcoming catalogues, etc.) then they too have lost some of my respect as a company.

From the article in today's tribune (http://www.sltrib.com/ci_3800468):
In reply to:
Patagonia's publicity department initially alerted the media to Potter's ascent, but indicated it may back off on further promotions after learning that Potter may have broken park service regulations.
I'm not sure how to take that, even though it certainly seems like an official endorsement (+ backpedaling) from the sponsor.


sidepull


May 9, 2006, 5:31 PM
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thanks tarzan!


krusher4


May 9, 2006, 5:32 PM
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IT WAS RAD!!! Get over the politics what a awesome first!


dingus


May 9, 2006, 5:37 PM
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In reply to:
In reply to:
ps. If Sherman hadn't advertised Hueco and brought in the masses, quien sabe?

isn't this exactly what potter did - advertise?

Perhaps, yes. My point was, most of US would never have heard of Hueco if Sherman hadn't brought it to our attention. Citing 'remember The Hueco' seems a tad self serving as a result.

Let me pose a question... if Potter had climbed that thing and only told a bud or two, and nothing else... how would that affect your opinion of the whole thing? So instead of reading about it here, you hear it from your Bro one night at the Climber's Bar...'say, didjya hear Potter bagged Delicate Arch?"

All quiet, hush hush, strictly on the Q T. Still warrant comdemnation?

Just curious...

DMT


glyrocks


May 9, 2006, 5:37 PM
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In reply to:
I live in 2006 when a so-called conservative president wants to sell off millions of acres of public land to pay his war debts.

I'm not sure I understand your logic. Because our president is abusing public land we should too? Apathy is a very poor why of fighting a tryanny.


----


And hah! To the jackass that complained about the media and then asked to see the pictures... you weren't even kidding were you? Amazing... you bitch about sensitive access and how wrong it was for it to be filmed and photographed but everyone wants to see the picture all the same. Good luck convincing yourself that isn't hypocritical.


sidepull


May 9, 2006, 5:40 PM
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Just out of curiosity - can anyone translate this sentence into plain english?

In reply to:
"If the compendium is found not to be sufficient, we will work with our solicitor posthaste to put a closure on Delicate Arch immediately."

Thanks.


ullr


May 9, 2006, 5:41 PM
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In reply to:
In reply to:
This isn't the 1970's fantasy land you're living in. We have potential consequences for our actions.

Remember Hueco? Used to be a great place in the good 'ol days.

I deserved that, but I live in no fantasy land. I live in 2006 when a so-called conservative president wants to sell off millions of acres of public land to pay his war debts.

In that climate, I just do not care if Potter climbs Washington's Nose on Rushmore either.

DMT

ps. If Sherman hadn't advertised Hueco and brought in the masses, quien sabe?

Look, I could really give a shit that he climbed the thing. I'm sure it was fun.

But this isn't a political thread about Bush and his antics. It's about climbing responsibly so others can continue the current privelege of being able to climb in Arches.

The Bush conservative thread is another ball of nasty wax.


keinangst


May 9, 2006, 5:45 PM
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Re: Ass Hat Potter Climbs Delicate Arch [In reply to]
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Who said anything about George Bush?! Is everything a f*cking travesty with you?

http://battellemedia.com/images/walter_can.jpg


tarzan420


May 9, 2006, 5:49 PM
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In reply to:
To the jackass that complained about the media and then asked to see the pictures... you weren't even kidding were you? Amazing... you b---- about sensitive access and how wrong it was for it to be filmed and photographed but everyone wants to see the picture all the same. Good luck convincing yourself that isn't hypocritical.
Nice to know that I wasn't the only one who noticed it.

In reply to:
Let me pose a question... if Potter had climbed that thing and only told a bud or two, and nothing else... how would that affect your opinion of the whole thing? So instead of reading about it here, you hear it from your Bro one night at the Climber's Bar...'say, didjya hear Potter bagged Delicate Arch?"

All quiet, hush hush, strictly on the Q T. Still warrant comdemnation?
In the end, I'm not sure.

On one hand, I'm sympathetic with Potter on the "Nature's Law" vs. "Man's Law" issue - if he/patagonia hadn't publicised it, it would be a non-issue.

On the other hand, by obeying some of the laws set for us by those in power, we preserve our ability to pursue our activities elsewhere relatively unhindered.


ullr


May 9, 2006, 5:51 PM
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In reply to:
Who said anything about George Bush?! Is everything a f*cking travesty with you?

http://battellemedia.com/images/walter_can.jpg

Perhaps read the thread, then smoke crack.

glyrocks did, look above a few posts.

No, it's not a travesty, I never said it was.

Again, read first, then smoke crack.


dingus


May 9, 2006, 5:51 PM
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I'm not sure I understand your logic. Because our president is abusing public land we should too? Apathy is a very poor why of fighting a tryanny.

If Potter somehow damaged Delicate Arch by climbing it then it seems to me that ALL climbing on public land is damaging. We are appealed to as a group... and are asked to think of how land managers view us because of one climber.

So I posited another view... a view of ALL OF THEM through the prism of one president. If its good for Potter its good for Bush.

I think many fine comments and points have been made concerning the publicity angle of this thing. Cool.

But I'm not really speaking to that. I'm speaking to a sentiment that seems to suggest that any breaking of the rules by any climber is a moral deficiency. I've climbed in restricted areas and I won't apologize for it.

I don't care if 'us' is outraged by my transgressions. I wouldn't have called 'us' for bail money iof it came to that either.

I wonder how much Bush would take for Delicate Arch?

DMT


lemon_boy


May 9, 2006, 5:52 PM
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potter is a f'ing lame ass. his "spiritual" shit is so arrogant. between this stunt, base jumping a route in patagonia and leaving his wife to rappel it by herself, filming himself free-soloing, etc, he comes across as the typical "i'm a bad ass, hear me roar" douchebag. what a f'ing loser.

and how about patagonia. "yay for dean, he is sooo cool, oh wait, nevermind". thank god i don't buy any of that pata-gucci garbage. f'ing pathetic.


sidepull


May 9, 2006, 5:57 PM
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In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
ps. If Sherman hadn't advertised Hueco and brought in the masses, quien sabe?

isn't this exactly what potter did - advertise?

Let me pose a question... if Potter had climbed that thing and only told a bud or two, and nothing else... how would that affect your opinion of the whole thing? So instead of reading about it here, you hear it from your Bro one night at the Climber's Bar...'say, didjya hear Potter bagged Delicate Arch?"

All quiet, hush hush, strictly on the Q T. Still warrant comdemnation?

Just curious...

DMT

Good question. For me it's a matter of scale. For instance, if someone builders a building at night that they would get busted for during the day and I hear about it through social circles I would be both impressed by the feat but still annoyed that the individual needs to add illegality to what they're doing in order to find a thrill. If they do the same stunt during the day knowing they'll get busted then I'm more angry because the detriment is no longer just to the climber seeking the thrill but it negatively impacts climbers as a group.

So, I think Potter is wrong in climbing delicate arch and the publicity amplifies the negative consequences. For me it isn't man's law versus nature's law as mentioned above. It's more of an issue of the categorical imperative - should we all climb delicate arch? The answer is obviously no - the rock is soft and it would be ruined by chalk and black rubber in a decade. So he was wrong to do it. Publicizing it makes it worse because it a) sends a public message that this is okay b) makes climbers look like they don't care about conservation c) amplifies the egotistical nature of the stunt.


killclimbz


May 9, 2006, 6:01 PM
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I know some people wanted a pic. Here it is.
http://i2.photobucket.com/...mbz/delicatearch.jpg


roy_hinkley_jr


May 9, 2006, 6:01 PM
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In reply to:
Let me pose a question... if Potter had climbed that thing and only told a bud or two, and nothing else... how would that affect your opinion of the whole thing?

Are you really so naive to believe that it hadn't been done years ago? Puh-leez. That summit was tread upon ages ago by climbers smart enough not to spew. Oh that's right, Potter and Thesenga are both your heros. Asswipes.


roy_hinkley_jr


May 9, 2006, 6:04 PM
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In reply to:
Let me pose a question... if Potter had climbed that thing and only told a bud or two, and nothing else... how would that affect your opinion of the whole thing?

Are you really so naive to believe that it hadn't been done years ago? Puh-leez. That summit was tread upon ages ago by climbers smart enough not to spew. Oh that's right, Potter and Thesenga are both your heros. :roll:


dingus


May 9, 2006, 6:16 PM
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In reply to:
Oh that's right, Potter and Thesenga are both your heros. Asswipes.

Oh yes, they're my here O's!

Hey Leroy, you should go get Potter's job the way you guys got Thesenga's. That'll teach em to fear the internet lynch mob!

DMT


glyrocks


May 9, 2006, 6:20 PM
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In reply to:
In reply to:
I'm not sure I understand your logic. Because our president is abusing public land we should too? Apathy is a very poor why of fighting a tryanny.

If Potter somehow damaged Delicate Arch by climbing it then it seems to me that ALL climbing on public land is damaging. We are appealed to as a group... and are asked to think of how land managers view us because of one climber.

So I posited another view... a view of ALL OF THEM through the prism of one president. If its good for Potter its good for Bush.

I think many fine comments and points have been made concerning the publicity angle of this thing. Cool.

But I'm not really speaking to that. I'm speaking to a sentiment that seems to suggest that any breaking of the rules by any climber is a moral deficiency. I've climbed in restricted areas and I won't apologize for it.

I don't care if 'us' is outraged by my transgressions. I wouldn't have called 'us' for bail money iof it came to that either.

I wonder how much Bush would take for Delicate Arch?

DMT


Dingus-

Gotcha. Thanks.



Everyone else that had no idea where my comment on the president came from-

Refrain from smoking crack and maybe you'll catch on quicker next time.


jakedatc


May 9, 2006, 6:21 PM
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krusher wrote:
In reply to:
IT WAS RAD!!! Get over the politics what a awesome first!

weren't you the one freaking out about people dry tooling routes?
In reply to:
THAT IS SUCH BULL SH*T!!! Tools simply destroy the rock!!!
Who ever is doing that crap STOP!

yea i thought so..


and i agree with whoever said the "spiritual crap" if you're gunna go on a soul searching solo you don't bring a HD camera crew and do laps on the thing


glyrocks


May 9, 2006, 6:24 PM
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In reply to:
krusher wrote:
In reply to:
IT WAS RAD!!! Get over the politics what a awesome first!

weren't you the one freaking out about people dry tooling routes?
In reply to:
THAT IS SUCH BULL SH*T!!! Tools simply destroy the rock!!!
Who ever is doing that crap STOP!

yea i thought so..

hah, classic.


Partner tgreene


May 9, 2006, 6:26 PM
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Re: Ass Hat Potter Climbs Delicate Arch [In reply to]
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Laws are routinely broken in Camp-4 as well, so we must decide as a "community as a whole" as to what IS and ISN'T acceptible in the realms of illegal actions on NPS land.

I'm torn on this issue... I would admire it had it been a stealthy Nija raid activity, but despise the publicity as it will only fuel the attempts by others.


tarzan420


May 9, 2006, 6:34 PM
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In reply to:
I'm speaking to a sentiment that seems to suggest that any breaking of the rules by any climber is a moral deficiency. I've climbed in restricted areas and I won't apologize for it.

I don't care if 'us' is outraged by my transgressions. I wouldn't have called 'us' for bail money iof it came to that either.

I think in some ways, it's a matter of consequeces. If getting caught (or publicising the fact that you're breaking the rules) means you get slapped with a fine, jail time, whatever, that's fine. What you choose to do impacts you, and you alone. However, if getting caught means further access restrictions or a complete closure, you've affected others, I begin to question that. Is it a moral deficiency? I'm not sure. Is jepordizing other's freedoms to pursue their activity of choice as much a moral deficiency as jeapordizing other's health, safety, and life in general? I don't think so.


ullr


May 9, 2006, 6:46 PM
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From now on, please climb the fucker at night, by moonlight. It should be cool enough where you won't need chalk. Don't tell anyone, or bring the damn Hollywood film crew along. When you rap off, please try to mitigate the nasty rope groove that repeated raps on sandstone create, afterall, we don't want to saw the pig in half.

All will be well in the west. Thanks.


areyoumydude


May 9, 2006, 6:55 PM
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There's nothing wrong with what Dean did. Sure he pissed off the park, but sense you can't climb arches anyway it won't affect access. The chalk will wash off. I don't think other climbers will be lining up for that one.


dingus


May 9, 2006, 7:03 PM
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In reply to:
However, if getting caught means further access restrictions or a complete closure, you've affected others, I begin to question that.

Yes, I can understand that distinction. Time will tell I guess.

DMT


freeskicolorado


May 9, 2006, 7:17 PM
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In reply to:
There's nothing wrong with what Dean did. Sure he pissed off the park, but sense you can't climb arches anyway it won't affect access. The chalk will wash off. I don't think other climbers will be lining up for that one.

Correct, it will not have any effect on the policy banning climbing on named arches. They will remain closed. However, the point is that it could potentially affect access to other, currently legal climbing opportunities in the park.

Did I really just need to point that out?


roy_hinkley_jr


May 9, 2006, 7:18 PM
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The last time somebody desecrated Delicate Arch, it cost him 150 hours of community service and $10,900 in restitution. Hopefully Potter will get similar treatment. At least Mike Fatali admitted that he was stupid while Potter whines the "I didn't know it was wrong" BS. But it's all good for ol' Dingus, anything goes as long as it's climbers being climbers. Meanwhile the Access Fund has to meet with the NPS to clean up Potter's mess.


tarzan420


May 9, 2006, 7:32 PM
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But it's all good for ol' Dingus, anything goes as long as it's climbers being climbers.

I don't think that was Dingus' point at all. My understanding of him was, "Breaking rules does not necessarily make you a bad person".

Historical Examples of Rule Breakers:
* Jesus
* Martin Luther King, Jr.
* Hitler

In other words, just because Potter broke a rule doesn't mean that he's a horrible person. However, it doesn't mean he's not, either.


brolloks


May 9, 2006, 7:55 PM
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You're either part of the problem, or part of the solution - DP is definitely not part of the solution to access issues.


wjca


May 9, 2006, 8:02 PM
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Too bad he didn't drop a couple bolts into that bad boy for all the sport climbers itching to concur the arch and lacking the sack to solo it. Any body got his email? Maybe he'd offer up some beta.


nuts_r_us


May 9, 2006, 8:10 PM
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In reply to:
In reply to:
I'm tired of this ambassador s---. I don't want none a yall button down, cardigan wearing Yale types representing me.

DMT

When he brought the film crew along and publicized the event, he made himself an ambassador of some kind.

From http://www.fiveten.com/athletes.php?s_a_id=3 :

"Five Ten's team members work as ambassadors, combining outstanding physical prowess, great personalities and an ability to spread their enthusiasm for sport and Five Ten. We value our close relationships with many of the world's top athletes. "

What a perfect ambassador for our sport. Self-serving prick.


roy_hinkley_jr


May 9, 2006, 8:10 PM
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In reply to:
In reply to:
But it's all good for ol' Dingus, anything goes as long as it's climbers being climbers.

I don't think that was Dingus' point at all.

Seems pretty clear that's exactly what Dingus was thinking when he wrote "Thus the free spirit of climbing is chained by corporate rule makers and their drones.

FUCK THAT!"

Dingus equally rants against anyone who thinks Thesenga should have been fired and never rehired for gross stupidity. Ah yes, the freespirit of climbing where rules are made to be broken, public property is for the abuse of climbers, the environment doesn't matter, and anyone who disagrees with the party line is a drone.


nuts_r_us


May 9, 2006, 8:13 PM
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From http://www.patagonia.com/...ne_ambassadors.shtml :

"Patagonia's Alpine Ambassadors are some of the best and most highly respected climbers in the world. They’re part of our extended family, helping us to develop products, acting as spokespeople and sending us photos and essays from their worldwide adventures"

Hope they rethink that.


dingus


May 9, 2006, 8:38 PM
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In reply to:
But it's all good for ol' Dingus, anything goes as long as it's climbers being climbers.

Yes, its all my fault Potter climbed Delicate Arch.
Go rat me out to someone, I'm sure you'll feel better.

DMT


dingus


May 9, 2006, 8:43 PM
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In reply to:
and anyone who disagrees with the party line is a drone.

I think you should have me fired!

DMT


krusher4


May 9, 2006, 8:45 PM
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Did he use chalk? The pic is too small for me to tell.


fightingmuskrat


May 9, 2006, 8:53 PM
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Let's attempt to use some reasoning:

Example one:
Dean Potter breaks a climbing rule/law in a National Park.
Park Authorities take away climbing for everyone.

Example two:
Someone illegally breaks the speed limit.
Highway Patrol takes away all driving privileges to licensed drivers.

This lacks reasoning.
As such, it seems the Park Authorities are trying to specifically bully the climbers.
Laws/rules will be broken, by climbers and tourists - anybody. It will happen.

Of most concern is why the National Park Service reacts with such a dictator-esque, extreme response?


Of Note - Dean Potter's effort left no trace.
I see the trace of tourists dumping trash out of their car windows at National Parks incessantly.


nuts_r_us


May 9, 2006, 9:06 PM
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In reply to:
Let's attempt to use some reasoning:

Example one:
Dean Potter breaks a climbing rule/law in a National Park.
Park Authorities take away climbing for everyone.

Example two:
Someone illegally breaks the speed limit.
Highway Patrol takes away all driving privileges to licensed drivers.

This lacks reasoning.
As such, it seems the Park Authorities are trying to specifically bully the climbers.
Laws/rules will be broken, by climbers and tourists - anybody. It will happen.

Of most concern is why the National Park Service reacts with such a dictator-esque, extreme response?


Of Note - Dean Potter's effort left no trace.
I see the trace of tourists dumping trash out of their car windows at National Parks incessantly.


I agree with you that you lack reasoning. His ascent 'left no trace' except a pissed off park superintendent and a cynical public eye. A speeder in the park benefits 'the man' financially when they get caught. Nearly everybody speeds when they drive, at least part of the time, even if unintentional. I doubt Potter will financially benefit the park, nor is it common to climb the arch, nor was it unintentional. Using one as a comparison for the other makes absolutely no sense.


mdude


May 9, 2006, 9:07 PM
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YEP. Dean Potter is on my shit list.

He has step over the line and should pay the price.

MD


crimpandgo


May 9, 2006, 9:39 PM
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In reply to:
Let's attempt to use some reasoning:

Example one:
Dean Potter breaks a climbing rule/law in a National Park.
Park Authorities take away climbing for everyone.

Example two:
Someone illegally breaks the speed limit.
Highway Patrol takes away all driving privileges to licensed drivers.

This lacks reasoning.
As such, it seems the Park Authorities are trying to specifically bully the climbers.
Laws/rules will be broken, by climbers and tourists - anybody. It will happen.

Of most concern is why the National Park Service reacts with such a dictator-esque, extreme response?


Of Note - Dean Potter's effort left no trace.
I see the trace of tourists dumping trash out of their car windows at National Parks incessantly.

Dean may have left no trace. the park service is far more worried about trace everyone else will leave when they follow him up the climb.

And I hardly doubt the rope he used to rapell back down left no trace. Even one time on the rock can leave affects, albeit small.


musicman


May 9, 2006, 9:50 PM
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so when he rapped off did he just through the rope around the arch or what? he left nothing and that seems like the only way to get down without down-climbing. and with how wide it is on top that would definitly do some damage pulling the rope when he was down.


erclimb


May 9, 2006, 9:53 PM
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climbers are a paradox: we talk about the beauty of the land in tones of worship; we claim to be commited to the purity of our wild places...but, our passion promotes the opposite...i imagine for most people, there is nothing beautiful about some nuts hanging on the side of el cap; we rail about the tourons in their suvs, but we are also blots on the landscape...and climbing accelerates erosion; there is nothing pure about campgrounds, trails, bolts, protection, chalk, rubber shoes, etc.

rather than be thankful for all the amazing places we can climb, we complain about the few we can't...we act as if we are entitled to climb--we're not...the national parks belong to us, which means we are the stewards of the land...we have an obligation (moral?) to protect these lands even (especially?) from ourselves...but as humans, we can rationalize our most selfish acts even as we condemn others who truly may have the most selfless intentions

the arches are special because they are so fragile...el cap will fall some day, but there is a real likelihood that we'll lose some of the arches in our lifetimes...consider this: if we drill in anwr, we will definitely cause harm, but our impact will definitely disappear after we leave; it might take a thousand years, but the tundra will come back...dean potter's 200-pounds likely caused in a few minutes the same erosion that naturally would have taken several years...if that arch falls tomorrow, it will NEVER return

dean potter is a most fortunate man; he has a life that most of us would consider ideal...he is a gifted climber; his wife is beautiful and an equally gifted climber; he can travel all over the world and climb in places most of us can only dream about--on somebody else's dime...he seems to have it all...why did he need that climb, too? this is a classic example of hubris, where the hero sees only himself

the fact is, the nps must come down hard on potter; otherwise, they invite every climber to repeat potter's stunt (with all the publicity, that's all it is), but they are charged--by us--to protect those arches--for us...and many of us will still rant about "leos" and fascist regulations


triznut


May 9, 2006, 9:53 PM
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I wasn't going to get involved here, but after reading a bunch of idiotic comments, I must spit my 2cents worth....

Yes DP fucked up and broke the rules. Fightingmuskrat makes some good points... Rules will always get broken. This kind of stunt was bound to happen sometime. And who else would you expect to do it..? (and yes, of all the people who should now better) Doesn't matter who did it or what their reasons are for why they did it... I don't care. Obviously he's in some hot water with a lot of people, and he should be... and hopefully his punishment will be harsh enough for him so he thinks twice about it the next time he wants to pull a stunt like this...

What I'm hearing here that I don't like, is that a bunch of you are already jumping to the conclusion that the climbing access there will be cut-off as if it was fact and has already happened. You all need to settle down a bit and lets wait to see what happens first. If they do cut it off completely for us, then will go to DP's house and &&%$^$##@ him up :twisted:

But until anything happens....JUST RELAX and think about the times you've broken the law and why you did it and if you learned anything good out of it when you were caught... :idea:

Peace ya'll!


arrow


May 9, 2006, 9:56 PM
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http://photos1.blogger.com/.../2938/1600/letmy.jpg


triznut


May 9, 2006, 10:08 PM
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In reply to:
climbers are a paradox: we talk about the beauty of the land in tones of worship; we claim to be commited to the purity of our wild places...but, our passion promotes the opposite...i imagine for most people, there is nothing beautiful about some nuts hanging on the side of el cap; we rail about the tourons in their suvs, but we are also blots on the landscape...and climbing accelerates erosion; there is nothing pure about campgrounds, trails, bolts, protection, chalk, rubber shoes, etc.

rather than be thankful for all the amazing places we can climb, we complain about the few we can't...we act as if we are entitled to climb--we're not...the national parks belong to us, which means we are the stewards of the land...we have an obligation (moral?) to protect these lands even (especially?) from ourselves...but as humans, we can rationalize our most selfish acts even as we condemn others who truly may have the most selfless intentions

the arches are special because they are so fragile...el cap will fall some day, but there is a real likelihood that we'll lose some of the arches in our lifetimes...consider this: if we drill in anwr, we will definitely cause harm, but our impact will definitely disappear after we leave; it might take a thousand years, but the tundra will come back...dean potter's 200-pounds likely caused in a few minutes the same erosion that naturally would have taken several years...if that arch falls tomorrow, it will NEVER return

dean potter is a most fortunate man; he has a life that most of us would consider ideal...he is a gifted climber; his wife is beautiful and an equally gifted climber; he can travel all over the world and climb in places most of us can only dream about--on somebody else's dime...he seems to have it all...why did he need that climb, too? this is a classic example of hubris, where the hero sees only himself

the fact is, the nps must come down hard on potter; otherwise, they invite every climber to repeat potter's stunt (with all the publicity, that's all it is), but they are charged--by us--to protect those arches--for us...and many of us will still rant about "leos" and fascist regulations

Well said.....


helios


May 9, 2006, 10:16 PM
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From one media hor to another, cool stunt!
http://img.slate.com/...TV_DavidBlaineTN.jpg
- David Blaine


triznut


May 9, 2006, 10:30 PM
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In reply to:
Article Last Updated: 05/09/2006 02:26:40 PM MDT

Update: Park officials say arch climbing is forbidden
The Salt Lake Tribune


Officials at Arches National Park issued a statement today that underscores its prohibition of climbers on arches or natural bridges in the park located north of Moab in southeastern Utah. The statement follows Sunday morning's so-called "free climb" of Delicate Arch by Moab resident Dean Potter. The statement says: "Effective May 9, 2006, under the authority of Title 36 Code of Federal Regulations (CFR), Part 1, Section 1.5(a)(1), all rock climbing or similar activities on any arch or natural bridge named on the United States Geological Survey 7.5 minute topographical maps covering Arches National Park are prohibited. "In addition, 'slacklining' in Arches National Park is prohibited. Slacklining
is defined as walking on a rope or other line that is anchored between rock formations, trees, or any other natural features. Height of the rope above the ground is immaterial. "These closures are based upon a determination that such action is necessary for the maintenance of public health and safety, protection of environmental or scenic values, protection of natural resources and avoidance of conflict among visitor use activities."

So there you have it.... Now will have to wait and see what they'll do with Dean....


ullr


May 9, 2006, 10:38 PM
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Who filmed it?

Maybe they can sell the footage to the Enquirer.


dirko


May 9, 2006, 10:41 PM
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There is a long history, both in the Southwest and in Asia of poached summits, it's a tradition I understand and condone.... but why did he have to FILM it??? Chalk?

I understand the access issues. That isn't what gets my goat. The chalk does. The film does. I want flip all the P.C. types the bird, but I can't defend hubris.


dru


May 9, 2006, 11:16 PM
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In reply to:
In reply to:
There's nothing wrong with what Dean did. Sure he pissed off the park, but sense you can't climb arches anyway it won't affect access. The chalk will wash off. I don't think other climbers will be lining up for that one.

Correct, it will not have any effect on the policy banning climbing on named arches. They will remain closed. However, the point is that it could potentially affect access to other, currently legal climbing opportunities in the park.

Did I really just need to point that out?

You mean like the way they ban all climbing in Red Rocks whenever someone gets ticketed for illegally bolting in the canyons, or bivying without a permit? Yes, there are so many cases where all climbers are punished for the misdeeds of one. It's horrible, isn't it.


alpinfox


May 9, 2006, 11:35 PM
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In reply to:
so when he rapped off did he just through the rope around the arch or what? he left nothing and that seems like the only way to get down without down-climbing. and with how wide it is on top that would definitly do some damage pulling the rope when he was down.

I don't know how he did it, but here is one way it could be done. Throw rope over one side. Have a person on the ground anchor it (or just lock off a belay), rappel off the other side. Pull rope after rappel. I don't think it would cause much noticable damage, though it certainly would if it were done hundreds/thousands of times.


aimeerose


May 9, 2006, 11:41 PM
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To have it filmed and photographed and use white chalk was just a bad idea. If he had really left no trace and it had only been witnessed by few to no people, then no harm no foul. But doing it this way, gives us all a bad name with the park people.


ullr


May 10, 2006, 12:21 AM
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In reply to:
I don't think it would cause much noticable damage, though it certainly would if it were done hundreds/thousands of times.

One only needs to look as far as the Bad Moki Roof on Wall Street to see the impacts of repeated raps on sandstone.

This pic poorly illustrates that. But there are 5" deep grooves (multiple) in the roof. I bet tourists would love to see grooves in Delicate Arch. That would leave a great impression.


http://www.rockclimbing.com/...p.cgi?Detailed=49177


Partner tim


May 10, 2006, 12:50 AM
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In reply to:
You mean like the way they ban all climbing in Red Rocks whenever someone gets ticketed for illegally bolting in the canyons, or bivying without a permit?

Of course someone might then point out that those folks usually don't end up on the back cover of magazines nor earn their living from pulling stunts like this.

Cop to it folks, Dean Potter is well known because he is outrageous... but this is outrageous in a very clumsy and white-trash blowing-up-propane-tanks-behind-the-meth-lab fashion. Love it or hate it, it's not making anyone any new friends at the NPS nor making it any easier for the AF to promote "responsible" climbing (whatever that is).

Dru -- keep that attitude -- better yet, join a like-minded crowd and start BASE jumping -- they get carted off in a paddy wagon when they're spotted descending from El Cap. At one point a "compromise" was attempted but a number of rather selfish BASE jumpers had to fuck it up for the rest (some of whom were rather enjoying jumping off El Cap, legally). I liked the additional verbiage making it clear that slacklines of any height were now outlawed in the park -- nice touch! Time to start bolting that webbing into place, maybe set up a swing on one of them arches. (Which reminds me, Catherine Destivelle did this with a swing set some years ago, no? Great photo op, probably not a high point in the NPS relations at Arches though) Rise up against the Man!!!1 Fuck anyone else and fuck the tourists who want something other than an ''urban'' experience (ala Yosemite) at Arches.
Right? Why should anyone exhibit any personal responsibility, this is the US!

Dean's an amazing climber but this was a stupid choice.


dirko


May 10, 2006, 1:00 AM
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E-G-O

I mean, why?
I would love to stand corrected, Dean, please tell me the deal.


steezy


May 10, 2006, 1:02 AM
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The park service is considering limiting access to the arch because of Dean's free solo.


catbiter


May 10, 2006, 1:03 AM
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Do you think that most first assents were made with permission? What about the people who get arrested for climbing buildings in huge cities? Do they ban all climbers from entering said cities? This is hopefully and isolated case. If anything the media surrounding it certainly brings the message" STAY OFF THE F!@#$ING ARCHES". I think everyone is getting too upset about this. What about when the editor/previous editor of a climbing magazine lit the rock on fire? Was climbing banned? Did it ever happen again? I rest my case. Look on the bright side, at least Dean didn't set it on fire did he?


mdude


May 10, 2006, 1:22 AM
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There is definately some fire here.

I would put money on the NPS setting a new law that NO One can approach the arch at all. How about closing the trail head?

Dean did it on a Sunday? How many people were there or with in view on a Sunday? Take a guess? 100? 200? I bet more!!

MD


ullr


May 10, 2006, 1:35 AM
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In reply to:
Do you think that most first assents were made with permission?

Your argument is entirely invalid in this context.

This arch was clearly off limits, but a loophole allowed it's ascent. Good judgement was not exercised. Only a self righteous, unapologetic attitude.


ullr


May 10, 2006, 1:37 AM
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In reply to:
Do you think that most first assents were made with permission? What about the people who get arrested for climbing buildings in huge cities? Do they ban all climbers from entering said cities?

Try again. Your argument is entirely out of context and unrelated.

Is that the best comparison you can make?


miavzero


May 10, 2006, 1:47 AM
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Congrats to Dean Potter on an excellent poach!
He truly reached one of the most aesthetic summits out there.

With that said, WTF was he thinking allowing himself to be filmed by someone who would publicize the ascent? If Dean had gone there when the place was deserted and climbed for his enjoyment alone, then there would be no issue. It's not like Delicate Arch would have become a trade route.

We can all call Dean an ego maniac. Maybe he is, but not even all of the people who know him can be sure. I would guess that Dean climbed DA because it was a thrilling experience. I would certainly love to do the same.

If Dean would have remembered the old saying Loose lips sink ships, then maybe he would have considered the potential knee-jerk reaction of NPS to close all of Arches to climbing.

Perhaps the climb was meant to be publicized as some sort of up yours statement. I certainly hope it wasn't.


roy_hinkley_jr


May 10, 2006, 1:48 AM
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In reply to:
Do you think that most first assents were made with permission?

Well you got the spelling right. Can you name any other first (dubious at best) assents where the Access Fund had to send somebody to kiss ass with the NPS? How many other assents were of the symbols for the entire state? The ban has only been printed in every guide book to the region published since 1988. Potter definitely knew it was wrong and chose to publicize the crime rather than being discrete. At least the pyromaniac bolt-chopping editor didn't make the news on 3 tv stations and newspapers a thousand miles away.

The saddest part of this is all the "climbers" who would rather wash it under the table -- typical good ol' boy crap. The Dean apologists and silent ones are making this ugly tale even worse.


jgill


May 10, 2006, 1:58 AM
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A sad commentary on "professionalism" in climbing. :(


sbaclimber


May 10, 2006, 2:05 AM
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what jakedatc said.........twice

Would it have been so hard to read the 'recent posts' on the front page before posting yourself?

:roll: :roll: :roll:


dirtineye


May 10, 2006, 2:09 AM
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Wonder why he had to rap off instead of downclimbing the other side of the arch?

Supposedly the thing is incredibly soft, and not much of a challenge at that.

I agree, what a d!ck.


sbaclimber


May 10, 2006, 2:15 AM
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In reply to:
Wonder why he had to rap off instead of downclimbing the other side of the arch?

Supposedly the thing is incredibly soft, and not much of a challenge at that.

I agree, what a d!ck.

*sigh* this has all been gone over in the original thread about this, and the original original thread on Teton Gravity


rock_ranger


May 10, 2006, 2:22 AM
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Does anyone have access to the video footage or the photos? I hope it never sees a repeat, but I also would have liked to have been there to see him do it.

Salt Lake Tribute is where the article ran. Only photo was http://extras.mnginteractive.com/...teplug_0509_a1~1.jpg


rhythm164


May 10, 2006, 2:39 AM
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Wow, I don't think I've ever seen such a quick, and overwhelming response to a thread on this website. I can definitley see both sides of the coin here, so I guess my take is this: Was it right for Potter to climb Delicate Arch, no. Was it smart to film it? Not really. Does this incident make him the devil? No. I mean, christ, everybody can piss and moan all they want, but the only real thing to do is wait it out and see what happens. I don't agree with what happened and I think that what he did was irresponsible, but it doesn't discredit all the guy has accomplished. He's a great climber, and I respect him for his willingness to push the limits, this is just a case of the limits being pushed in the wrong direction. Someone mentioned earlier about his basejump in Patagonia, and how shitty it was to leave Steph Davis to rap the route alone, wouldn't you think that they would've come to some agreement about this beforehand? I don't think Potter pulled a chute out of the pig and hopped off while her back was turned. If you read any articles from either of them (the one from Climbing about when Davis sent Freerider comes to mind) it's obvious that they're very supportive of each others endeavors. I think I also read in another post about how Patagonia sucks and it's pathetic and blah blah blah. Bullshit. This company has done more to promote green business and the steps Chouinard has taken to lessen the corporate footprint should be a lesson to all companies. Not to mention their gear is fucking bombproof. I proudly purchase, use, and abuse Patagonia products. But this is somewhat off topic. I guess what it boils down too is that he made a bad desicion, and all we can hope for is that it won't set a precident in the park of people treading into no access areas. These access restrictions are in place for a reason, and as climbers, or anyone who recreates in the outdoors, they need to be respected and adheared too. From a conservationist standpoint, every closer, be it riding your mountain bike down that eroded hiking trail to climbing Delicate Arch should be respected. I don't agree with Potter for what he did, but I still respect him for all he's done.

Holy crap, that was longwinded. I definitly respect anyone who made it all the way through that.


musicman


May 10, 2006, 3:45 AM
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In reply to:
In reply to:
I don't think it would cause much noticable damage, though it certainly would if it were done hundreds/thousands of times.

One only needs to look as far as the Bad Moki Roof on Wall Street to see the impacts of repeated raps on sandstone.

This pic poorly illustrates that. But there are 5" deep grooves (multiple) in the roof. I bet tourists would love to see grooves in Delicate Arch. That would leave a great impression.


http://www.rockclimbing.com/...p.cgi?Detailed=49177

that is the exact route that came to mind! yeah, sure, one or two raps isn't going to leave 5" grooves but that sandstone is soft, and a couple 100' lowers seems like it could do some noticable damage. and even if it isn't noticable, he definitly would "leave a trace" on the arch. so much for just "blowing a bit of dust off of holds" and nothing else.


grover


May 10, 2006, 4:10 AM
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Funny how in South Dakota, drilling and blasting a massive rock face for a tourist trap is kosher, and in Utah, simply soloing up some choss pile is a way to get lynched.


Hmmmmm..... me thinks you all rather be pickin on bigger problems...

punters......


zozo


May 10, 2006, 4:15 AM
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In reply to:
Funny how in South Dakota, drilling and blasting a massive rock face for a tourist trap is kosher, and in Utah, simply soloing up some choss pile is a way to get lynched.


Hmmmmm..... me thinks you all rather be pickin on bigger problems...

punters......

yup,

I put this thread in a pot on the stove, boiled the piss out of it for three hours and reduced it down to a nice sticky syrup and found I had a "Climbers pissed at people for climbing things" thread.


josephgdawson


May 10, 2006, 5:20 AM
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I must agree with Gill that Potter's behavior is unprofessional. It reminds me of people making illegal ascents up Everest and then bragging about it publically. With regards to access it was not bright and tends to upset the bureaucrats. I would go so far as to say that if he climbed it that is his business, but he should not have gone public with it.

On the other hand, I agree with that Potter's statement, "What has our world come to if we cannot join nature by climbing one of nature's most beautiful features?" I am no fan of the NPS and wilderness rules strike me as an oxymoron.


curt


May 10, 2006, 6:41 AM
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In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:

Isn't white the usual color of bird shit? How more natural can you get? :D

Curt


HA! :righton:

Impressions last longer than chalk.

Curt, you fight for your precious bouldering in Queen Creek to keep it from the mining, but you could care less about Arches?

I care about climbing access everywhere. If you were unable to tell that my earlier post was meant to be funny, then I would say that your humor bypass surgery was a complete success.

Curt


slcathena


May 10, 2006, 7:12 AM
Post #130 of 322 (41436 views)
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In reply to:
Let's attempt to use some reasoning:

Example one:
Dean Potter breaks a climbing rule/law in a National Park.
Park Authorities take away climbing for everyone.

Example two:
Someone illegally breaks the speed limit.
Highway Patrol takes away all driving privileges to licensed drivers.

This lacks reasoning.
As such, it seems the Park Authorities are trying to specifically bully the climbers.
Laws/rules will be broken, by climbers and tourists - anybody. It will happen.

What lacks reasoning is this analogy. Dean Potter isn't just "someone." Rules/laws change all the time because of high profile instances. Think Enron. Additionally, they are more likely to change when the population affected is significantly smaller than the population writ large. I'm sure the NPS would have no problem closing access to rock climbers in order to protect it for the bulk of other people who visit the park, and they are much more likely to do it when someone of note breaks the rules so egregiously than when climber x does it randomly.


couloir


May 10, 2006, 7:24 AM
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9 pages in two days! Must be some sort of record. Keep on fighting the worthless (I mean good) fight on the online battlefields.


fredo


May 10, 2006, 1:53 PM
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[quote="dingus"]
In reply to:
In reply to:
ps. If Sherman hadn't advertised Hueco and brought in the masses, quien sabe?

Let me pose a question... if Potter had climbed that thing and only told a bud or two, and nothing else... how would that affect your opinion of the whole thing? So instead of reading about it here, you hear it from your Bro one night at the Climber's Bar...'say, didjya hear Potter bagged Delicate Arch?"

All quiet, hush hush, strictly on the Q T. Still warrant comdemnation?

Just curious...

DMT

In my opinion yes. The difference to me is the portrayal. He was quoted saying it was his best climb and about the energy on top of the Arch, but then thumbs his nose at the officials. If he has an axe to grind fine, but do not confuse the two. The spirituality of climbing vs. making a point. Both are diminished.


ddriver


May 10, 2006, 2:43 PM
Post #133 of 322 (41436 views)
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From today's Salt Lake tribune:

http://www.sltrib.com/ci_3804296#

"Potter was unrepentant Tuesday, saying he is "not sorry for my actions at all."
He said he did not read the regulations before Sunday's climb but did ask several rangers about the park's regulations. He said now that the wording has been changed, he will follow the rules.
"I didn't want to break the law, and I didn't break the law," he said. "The suggestion that I did something illegal causes harm to me and my reputation. I'd be surprised if anybody would find anything wrong if the story had just been 'man climbs rock,' or 'man communes with nature.' "

As others have stated, it has long been clear that climbing named arches in the park is prohibited.


http://www.nps.gov/arch/climb.htm

"Regulations

Use of motorized drills is prohibited.
Climbing is prohibited on any arch identified on current USGS 7.5 minute topographical maps; on Balanced Rock year-round; on Bubo from January 1st to June 30th; on Industrial Disease on the Devil Dog Spire from January 1st to June 30th.
The use of chalk for climbing must be of a color which blends with the native rock.
Climbers are encouraged to employ clean-climbing ethics, leave dull-colored webbing when recovery is impossible, and access climbing routes via established trails, slickrock or sandy washes."


Most are probably aware, but Delicate Arch has greater significance than any arch in the state. The only thing that would raise more stink than this is Rainbow Bridge.

http://www.us-way.de/license-plates/116.jpg

Draw your own conclusions.


fishbelly


May 10, 2006, 4:00 PM
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I will boycott Patagonia until they fire Potter and make restitution's to the Park Service with an apology.


marc801


May 10, 2006, 4:01 PM
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Here's today's editorial comment from the SL Trib that sums things up pretty well:
In reply to:
Elevated ego: Climber who scaled Delicate Arch deserves stiff penalty
Tribune Editorial

Dean Potter and a few irresponsible all-terrain vehicle riders have two traits in common: They are stubbornly determined to go where no humans have gone before, and they believe that rules meant to protect the landscape don't apply to them.

Potter is the professional climber who scaled Utah's most prominent icon, Delicate Arch, Sunday, despite Arches National Park rules against climbing all its named arches. Making the ascent had become an obsession, he said. We see it more as an ego trip and a chance to advance his climbing career.

That Patagonia, whose outdoor gear Potter promotes, had plans to use the climb in its advertising seems the most probable motive for the stunt.

Potter obviously did not consider the potential harm he could cause by disregarding park regulations. Or he simply put his own personal gratification - or was it a need for attention? - ahead of any concern for the unique rock formation he claims was "vibrating with energy" as he stood on its top. If the huge old arch could vibrate, indignation or outrage would be a more likely cause.

His rationalization that he did not harm the 45-foot natural sculpture - "I respected the arch to the fullest. I did no more than blow a little dust off a few handholds" - does nothing to excuse his behavior. It's the same reasoning that takes ATV riders off established trails and into untrammeled territory. How much damage can just one vehicle do?

That argument has a hollow ring. Once an ATV has shoved its way through formerly pristine forest or desert, its track becomes a trail and others will soon follow. That may also be a consequence of Potter's climb, and Park Service prohibitions will only make it more of a challenge to those who, like Potter, care little about the reasons behind the rules. His legacy may well be a damaged and violated Delicate Arch, not a notable sports achievement.

Whatever penalty the Park Service exacts, we hope it includes a lifelong ban of Potter from Arches National Park.

Potter wonders "What has our world come to" if climbers are prevented from scaling "one of nature's most beautiful features"? Despite what he seems to believe, the world is not Potter's personal playground and it will be better off if no other climbers follow his hedonistic example.


dingus


May 10, 2006, 4:02 PM
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So... assuming the gossip is correct and Potter exploited a loop hole in the climbing regulations, what's left for you law and order types to hang the hat of shame on Potter? White chalk? Publicity hound? Film crew?

What?

I am swayed by the 'negative perception' arguments offered here and elsewhere. I think most professional climbers are 'guilty' of self-promotion to one extent or another. One poster here suggested it was my fault in a sense, for hero worshipping the likes of Potter and Thesenga.

I had to laugh at that... I haven't bought a climbing mag in YEARS. I haven't bought a climb vid EVER. I don't own any autographed Dean Potter chalk bags. I couldn't quote a Thesenga article if I tried. I've never met either man and I am quite sure I could pass them on the street and not recognize either one.

Hey Roy? Bought a climbing mag in the last coupke of years? if so man, you're part of the problem too. Stop the hero worship man, stop it where it counts... the pocket book. If no one buys what they're selling... it all just stops.

The consumer rules the roost.

DMT


hugepedro


May 10, 2006, 4:36 PM
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Re: Ass Hat Potter Climbs Delicate Arch [In reply to]
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What is this loophole? Can someone explain it please?

Regardless if he found a loophole, he caused a big stink that could affect the access of others. That is his "crime", in my opinion. He has to be a total idiot if he didn't anticipate that his actions would be controversial. His actions, and his defiant attitude after the fact, are the stuff of a self-absorbed, self-serving prick.

The Park should throw the book at him, and I agree with the editorial posted above, a lifetime ban form Arches would be appropriate and send a message to others who might follow him.


roy_hinkley_jr


May 10, 2006, 4:46 PM
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There was no loophole. There was no question about the ban. There is no doubt that countless other capable climbers had more respect for that rock. Any climber that has spent time in the area (let alone lived there for a decade) absolutely knew it was off limits. The ones who climbed Delicate before Potter, and other protected summits, had enough class not to thump their chest and thumb their nose. He broke the biggest rule of all secret climbs, let alone the law.

In reply to:
Hey Roy? Bought a climbing mag in the last coupke of years?

Last one I paid for would have been around 1980. You say the "consumer rules the roost" yet get all bent out of shape when the "drones" decide to speak out when they perceive idiocy. Your vehement defense of fools sure makes you look like a brown nose or a hero worshipper.


marc801


May 10, 2006, 4:51 PM
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In reply to:
What is this loophole? Can someone explain it please?
Potter explained that he interpreted the "...no climbing on named arches..." regulation as meaning no pitons or bolts and that somehow free soloing a route isn't "climbing" the arch.

There is no loophole, just a lame attempt at justification.


dingus


May 10, 2006, 4:52 PM
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And your self righteous attitude makes you seem like a prick. We all have our crosses to bear.


DMT


hugepedro


May 10, 2006, 5:04 PM
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In reply to:
In reply to:
What is this loophole? Can someone explain it please?
Potter explained that he interpreted the "...no climbing on named arches..." regulation as meaning no pitons or bolts and that somehow free soloing a route isn't "climbing" the arch.

There is no loophole, just a lame attempt at justification.

Thanks.

If he expects that anyone other than a know nothing tourist would believe that that was his honest interpretation he's and even bigger idiot than I thought.


yanqui


May 10, 2006, 5:11 PM
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Wow. I never imagined so many climbers took their ambassadors so seriously. You know, putting them up to such tight scrunity and all. Well, I suppose they are the ambassadors. And where would climbers be without ambassadors? I am inspired by this thread to be stern and judgemental with the ambassadors. Just like that Tribune editorial. This whole thing should go down on Potter's permanent record.

Frankly I could care less about the ambassadors, unless maybe I get to meet them and get know them as people. So Potter likes to push things sometimes. Big deal. I doubt this stunt will have much bearing on future access. If it does, THEN start a thread dissing Potter. Until then, what the hell difference does it make? Meanwhile, how's the AIR QUALITY in SLC during those lovely winter inversions? Air quality like that is what I call an environmental problem. Not a couple of skid marks where rappel ropes passed over some rock. Just my opinion.

I was thinking it would be kind of funny if the Delicate Arch just collapsed. You know, all by itself. Those kinds of things happen in nature, all the time. Maybe we could blame Potter.


clayman


May 10, 2006, 5:15 PM
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I have to agree that the fact the it was filmed and done in a "look at me" fashion, is pure stupidity. I really don't care that much about breaking of NPS rules. However, if you chose to break the rules and you get caught then you should be prepared for all that comes with getting caught, including elevating access issues.

I, one day, plan to do some climbing at Skytop (Gunks). But, f*ck sake, I sure as hell don't want anybody, except my close friends to know about it. And in the event that I get caught and the Preserve decides to institute some policy to more tightly control who climbs at the Trapps, I WOULD deserve a lynching.

"What has our world come to if we cannot join nature by climbing one of nature's most beautiful features?"
Although I agree with the essence of this statement, when you juxtapose this against the manner of the climb, it comes across as sanctimonious drivel.

cl


wilcox510


May 10, 2006, 5:48 PM
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Yanqui - I agree using the term "ambassador" as Patagonia does is ridiculous. But the fact is Potter is a very high profile climber who has already pissed off the NPS on multiple occasions, and NPS climber relationships are already very strained. His denial that he was doing something illegal is bullshit, he's just playing semantics. Whether or not he really did degrade the environment is not the issue to me, it's that he was being a selfish prick and putting further strain on climbing access. And yes, the inversions here in SLC are pretty disgusting.


yanqui


May 10, 2006, 6:23 PM
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In reply to:
But the fact is Potter is a very high profile climber who has already pissed off the NPS on multiple occasions, and NPS climber relationships are already very strained. His denial that he was doing something illegal is s---, he's just playing semantics. Whether or not he really did degrade the environment is not the issue to me, it's that he was being a selfish prick and putting further strain on climbing access.

Let's just hope the NPS has the good sense to crack down on Potter and not anyone else. I think we can agree on this.


dingus


May 10, 2006, 6:59 PM
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http://www.supertopo.com/...ic_id=190654&f=0&b=0

For a lighter look at the situation.

DMT


wyjames


May 10, 2006, 7:49 PM
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Whether there are obvious repercussions or not the NPS will definitely remember this publicity stunt (that what it is) and I am sure NPS doesn't care about Potter misinterpretation of the rule. Ever worked with children? they also use the misinterpretation excuse, for a supposed professional it is lame.

Climbing may have a history of rebelliousness, but unfortunately we have outgrown our history. Like it or not climbing is becoming more mainstream and access is becoming increasingly sensitive everywhere as more and more climbers venture out onto the rock.

I find it extremely selfish for a well known and well traveled climber to risk (it was a risk whether or not there is a fallout) access and well as risk bad press (this is definitely happening) just to climb a short 5.9 (not even an FA) on an iconic formation. Maybe Mt. Rushmore will be next, that would make a great Patagucci ad

Too bad, and yes I have met Potter coincidently I wasn’t impressed by him in person either.

Later, James


dingus


May 10, 2006, 8:09 PM
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In reply to:
Climbing may have a history of rebelliousness, but unfortunately we have outgrown our history.

Clearly we have not. I hope we never do.

Long live the adolescents!

Purging the rebellion from climbing would kill the goose that laid the golden egg. I want no part of your brave new world.

DMT


wyjames


May 10, 2006, 8:12 PM
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It is your world Dingus I'm just living in it!


kjclimbing


May 10, 2006, 8:15 PM
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Great PR move on Potter's part - he's gotten more press in the last 24 hours on blogs, message boards and news reports than in the last 24 years. Not sure if Patagonia is so stoked. They says that they are "checking into it" and will review weather or not he'll get the boot from their payroll.

Pretty weak that he had the time to get cameras and others ready for the climb but he couldn't stop by the climbing shop to pick up some brown chalk. Ambassador, pfft.


sidepull


May 10, 2006, 8:17 PM
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In reply to:
http://www.supertopo.com/...ic_id=190654&f=0&b=0

For a lighter look at the situation.

DMT

Which should not imply that the discussions on that board are that different in their sense of outrage:

http://www.supertopo.com/...ic_id=190843&f=0&b=0

Dingus - it seems people disagree with your take on both boards? What about b.com - oh wait, bvb climbed D-arch back in '77 (insert expletive here).

I find it telling that Climbing has yet to post a "hot flash" - I would bet they're pretty ambivalent about how to couch this, Dean is a golden child in that rag but he's placed himself in the role of a pariah.


dingus


May 10, 2006, 8:36 PM
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In reply to:
Dingus - it seems people disagree with your take on both boards?

Yes, absolutely. 3 boards actually.

The publicity thing? You folks have convinced me, twas a bad idea. I'm on board.

But the law and order crowd, the 'climbing is dead and you MUST obey the law?' folks? Bite me.

The 'what gives the mighty Dean Potter the right to do this! The ARROGANCE!' group? I don't buy that line of reasoning at all either.

I think the outrage is misplaced. A yawn would be a more telling reaction, specially with respect to Potter.

DMT


dingus


May 10, 2006, 8:51 PM
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In reply to:
There was no loophole.

Maybe you should tell that to the National Park Service?

In reply to:
Arches acting Chief Ranger Karen McKinlay-Jones believes Potter's actions on Sunday violated the intent of park regulations but said the park's solicitor advised that Potter cannot be prosecuted because the regulation "was not worded well."

Loophole. Case closed it would seem.

DMT


Partner the_mitt


May 10, 2006, 8:51 PM
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(This post was edited by the_mitt on Nov 19, 2006, 6:39 PM)


sidepull


May 10, 2006, 8:57 PM
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In reply to:
The publicity thing? You folks have convinced me, twas a bad idea. I'm on board.
Agreed. My non-climber brother called me last night - "can you believe a guy would do that? It just seems stupid."

In reply to:
But the law and order crowd, the 'climbing is dead and you MUST obey the law?' folks? Bite me.
I think the Camp 4 hey day is long gone. I don't think that means that the rebelious spirit in climbing has died, although we do tend to dress better which leads to . . .

In reply to:
The 'what gives the mighty Dean Potter the right to do this! The ARROGANCE!' group? I don't buy that line of reasoning at all either.
This is the same argument that prompted Charles Barkley to say, "just because I'm a basketball player doesn't make me a role model." But that logic doesn't fly. Sponsored athletes, by virtue of being sponsored do have more impact on their sports and how people perceive the people that participate in the sport. Potter's actions stand in defiance of the larger role he plays in the sport.

If you disagree with that argument then Potter's send was still done in a public way but for personal "feel the vibrations" reasons. That combination of public spectacle and private acheivement does make it arrogant, more so because he was wrong to do it.

In reply to:
I think the outrage is misplaced. A yawn would be a more telling reaction, specially with respect to Potter.
This is a compelling statement, but I'm not sure what you mean?


lonnie_utah


May 10, 2006, 8:59 PM
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For his next feat, Potter has announced that he will scale Washington's nose at Mt. Rushmore....

L


jaybro


May 10, 2006, 9:00 PM
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Dingus is being modest because he may be uncomfortable with how many people pretty much agree with what he said.


slcathena


May 10, 2006, 9:06 PM
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In reply to:
For his next feat, Potter has announced that he will scale Washington's nose at Mt. Rushmore....

L

lol. Nice.


Partner tim


May 10, 2006, 9:07 PM
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In reply to:
Let's just hope the NPS has the good sense to crack down on Potter and not anyone else. I think we can agree on this.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAA!!!

(that was a joke, right? I noticed that you are an expatriate... maybe you haven't been paying attention to what's been happening lately... the NPS could give a fuck who they trample as long as they don't chase away the RV's and snowmobilers. These imbeciles are of a piece with the HUD secretary that canceled a contract because the provider was unhappy with Bush -- they don't seem to understand that their job is to serve the American people, *NOT* some fucking chimp in the White House who changes every 4-8 years.)

Anyways, I'm off to climb Shiprock and sell some photos of my highline on it!


dingus


May 10, 2006, 9:08 PM
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In reply to:
I think the Camp 4 hey day is long gone. I don't think that means that the rebelious spirit in climbing has died, although we do tend to dress better which leads to . . .

There may be a flicker left in your soul but many have voiced the opinion that laws must be observed. That is cut and dry... and I bet good money most of them speed to the crags too.

In reply to:
Sponsored athletes, by virtue of being sponsored do have more impact on their sports and how people perceive the people that participate in the sport.
This isn't a debate in a logic class. I'm telling you I don't give a damn about Potter's image or role model, not positive, not negative. I DO NOT CARE.

In reply to:
That combination of public spectacle and private acheivement does make it arrogant, more so because he was wrong to do it.

Fine, you believe it was arrogant. Do Arches regulations prohibit that too?

In reply to:
I think the outrage is misplaced. A yawn would be a more telling reaction, specially with respect to Potter.
This is a compelling statement, but I'm not sure what you mean?
I mean a great sound and fury on the internet is fun and all and it has been demonstrated that it can cost people their jobs in the world, but this is mostly feel good venting with no real expectation of a result.

If you want Pattigucci and Potter to really feel your angst... never EVER buy anything from anyone who has anything to do with either of them. That's what I mean.

Cheers man
DMT


rock_gizmo


May 10, 2006, 9:12 PM
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I would have to say it is irresponsible for Potter to do or even to attempt to climb an Arch in the park. I also think corporation such as Black Diamond and Patagonia etc who are huge sponsor of environmental and conservations issues would support such a climber in their ranks. It is my own opinion but any corporation who sponsors someone to climb also agrees with the ethical choices of that individual and their choice of routes they decide to climb. If climbing corporation or magazines continue to sponsor such an act by supporting the individual economically or by publishing article on them, they have doomed the environment to senseless acts. :( :evil:


slcathena


May 10, 2006, 9:17 PM
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In reply to:
In reply to:
Sponsored athletes, by virtue of being sponsored do have more impact on their sports and how people perceive the people that participate in the sport.
This isn't a debate in a logic class. I'm telling you I don't give a damn about Potter's image or role model, not positive, not negative. I DO NOT CARE.

That's great that you don't care. I hate to break it to you, other people do care, and some of those people have the power to change access to lots of places. No, this isn't a logic class, but it is the real world where people don't act in a vacuum and high profile people should have the decency to know how their actions affect the rest of us. The last thing we need is another Hueco.


dingus


May 10, 2006, 9:23 PM
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In reply to:
That's great that you don't care. I hate to break it to you, other people do care, and some of those people have the power to change access to lots of places. No, this isn't a logic class, but it is the real world

Here? On rc.com? Real world? If you say so...

In reply to:
where people don't act in a vacuum

HERE??? ON RC.COM????

In reply to:
and high profile people should have the decency to know how their actions affect the rest of us. The last thing we need is another Hueco.

Like I said the publicity angle, I'm with you. But I see no parallels to Hueco.

DMT


tslater


May 10, 2006, 9:25 PM
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yeah, with every swing of the axe there is a consequence. And we don't live in a vacuum. I think we should focus on the action though, and not the individual.


slcathena


May 10, 2006, 9:26 PM
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My point wasn't about RC.com. I really could care less what happens on a message board, my points were discussing the real world, and how actions affect people.


yanqui


May 10, 2006, 9:32 PM
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In reply to:
In reply to:
Let's just hope the NPS has the good sense to crack down on Potter and not anyone else. I think we can agree on this.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAA!!!

(that was a joke, right? I noticed that you are an expatriate... maybe you haven't been paying attention to what's been happening lately... the NPS could give a f--- who they trample as long as they don't chase away the RV's and snowmobilers. These imbeciles are of a piece with the HUD secretary that canceled a contract because the provider was unhappy with Bush -- they don't seem to understand that their job is to serve the American people, *NOT* some f---ing chimp in the White House who changes every 4-8 years.)

Anyways, I'm off to climb Shiprock and sell some photos of my highline on it!

Not that I wanna hijack all the wonderful goose-steppin going on (Dingus excluded), BUT ....

as an interesting aside, I recently read an article in the Washington Post about how the USDA (you know, the Forest Service) is getting the message from above that they need to start painting rosy pictures of the Iraq occupation in their official USDA announcements:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/...AR2006050700898.html

In reply to:
Now, you might still be scratching your heads, trying to figure out how this is going to work when people expect a talk about agriculture issues. Not to worry. The attachments -- which can be viewed at http://www.washingtonpost.com/fedpage -- show how easy it is to work a little Iraq happy talk into just about anything.

There's a sample introduction: "Several topics I'd like to talk about today -- Farm Bill, trade with Japan, WTO, avian flu . . . but before I do, let me touch on a subject people always ask about . . . progress in Iraq." See? Smooth as silk.

So then you talk about how "we are helping the Iraqi people build a lasting democracy that is peaceful and prosperous." If it looks like the audience is with you, try to slip in the old Iraq/al-Qaeda/terrorism link and say Americans are helping build a country "that will never again be a safe haven for terrorists."


sidepull


May 10, 2006, 10:00 PM
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In reply to:
In reply to:
Sponsored athletes, by virtue of being sponsored do have more impact on their sports and how people perceive the people that participate in the sport.
This isn't a debate in a logic class. I'm telling you I don't give a damn about Potter's image or role model, not positive, not negative. I DO NOT CARE.


Sorry - I wasn't trying to bowl you over with logic, I was admitting that my argument had holes but that it was part of my rationale and I was simply trying to understand yours.


roy_hinkley_jr


May 10, 2006, 10:31 PM
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Potter can lie his ass off about not knowing it was off limits all he wants. Only a moron buys that argument. So nice of him to say he won't violate the "new" regulations because they were so different from the "old." :roll:

The story was reported by AP this morning and has now been printed with the photo in dozens of newspapers all over the country. Google News is showing it places like Houston, San Diego, Seattle, Atlanta, plus London, Australia, etc.

Great job Dean! Way to get yourself international attention. Thanks for exposing millions of people who otherwise couldn't care less to the antics of climbers. Perhaps you can score a book contract and movie deal out of this, hot damn. No doubt, Climbing will run it as a cover story for the September issue, perfectly timed for OR. Great way to sell more magazines. Unless Outside outbids them. Yep, Potter is sure a climber to admire.


paulj


May 10, 2006, 10:32 PM
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From the Access Fund:

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
May 10, 2006

Contact:
Robb Shurr, Access Fund
robb@accessfund.org
303.545.6772 x100
Access Fund Condemns Delicate Arch, UT Climb

A recent ascent of Delicate Arch in Utah’s Arches National Park has fueled a firestorm of media coverage and interest from federal land managers, politicians and the climbing community. See Park tweaks rules after Delicate Arch climb in the May 10 edition of the SALT LAKE TRIBUNE (http://www.sltrib.com/ci_3804296). Many individuals—both climbers and non-climbers—have expressed outrage at this event, and the climb has received both statewide and national media attention.

The Access Fund does not condone the climb of Delicate Arch and the actions of this individual are not representative of the climbing community.

The Access Fund supports justifiable climbing restrictions which protect natural and cultural resources and works towards effective and reasonable climbing management policies is cooperation with land managers and the greater climbing community. This process of discussion limits unnecessary restrictions, results in climbing management policies based on mutual agreement, and helps to ensure cooperation and effective enforcement of climbing policies.

We trust the public will understand that the actions of one person should not condemn the larger community of climbers who are equally appalled by this event. The Access Fund urges all climbers to recognize and limit the impacts of their climbing practices on the environment and other users of the land and to respect existing closures. If questionable restrictions arise, climbing advocacy efforts opposing such unreasonable restrictions should follow proper administrative procedures.

Climbers pride ourselves on respect for the environment and the Access Fund’s stewardship efforts around the country speak directly to the greater climbing public taking responsibility for climbing resources.



Policy Questions: contact Jason Keith, jason@accessfund.org
Media inquiries: contact Robb Shurr, robb@accessfund.org


g
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May 10, 2006, 11:14 PM
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In reply to:
For his next feat, Potter has announced that he will scale Washington's nose at Mt. Rushmore....

L
I wish him the best on that one.

http://www.npr.org/.../gmartinez_large.jpg


sidepull


May 10, 2006, 11:54 PM
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doubt he'll be happy if he feels vibrations climbing Washington's nose - "tectonic sneeze coming right up!"


ccox


May 11, 2006, 12:37 AM
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Dean Potter is a narcissist, just like his wife. They can't go climbing without a photographer to capture their insignificant feats of self-promotion on film, for example - Astroman, Salathe free. They must think they are the chosen ones, and we all should be in awe. I don't really give a shit about the rules he broke in Arches, but I'd sure enjoy seeing his image in a courtroom. Would he still look around to be sure the cameras were aimed at him?


slablizard


May 11, 2006, 12:50 AM
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Wow guys....so much for climber's camraderie eh?
Yes he broke the law climbing there, did you ever broke the law yourself?
He left chalkmarks, they'll be gone with the first rain, if a flock of birds would have covered the arch in poop it would have been worst I guess. But no one would complain about that.
He didn't bolted the arch, he free soloed it...I think you're exxagerating a bit here.
I am sure that someone like Potter considered all the danger and damage involved in a feat like this. AS I am sure he did all he could to avoid any damage.

Was he right? Probably not, but he's still a climber,


djoseph


May 11, 2006, 1:03 AM
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Not sure if this has been posted already, but off the AP wires (http://news.yahoo.com/...arches_park_climbing

In reply to:
Climber Dean Potter scaled Delicate Arch, the soaring desert symbol of southern Utah. Now, the National Park Service wants to make sure he doesn't do it again.

Arches National Park on Tuesday announced a tightening of its rules on climbing after Potter announced with photographs and video that he made an unassisted climb of the arch just after daybreak Sunday.

Arches Park Superintendent Laura Joss said she reported Potter's climb to the Interior Department's chief lawyers, and park rangers were investigating whether Potter did any damage to the arch.

Joss said she was rewriting the rules to ban climbing of any named arches or natural bridges in the park.

The new rules took effect Tuesday and were posted prominently on the park's Web site, http://www.nps.gov/arch. Potter said he will not violate them.

Potter said he didn't know of any other climber going to the top, but didn't take credit for a first ascent. "I would think somebody a hundred years ago figured out a way to get up, maybe with ladders and rope," said Potter, a 34-year-old professional climber. "It's only 70 feet tall."


potreroed


May 11, 2006, 1:30 AM
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Having quietly poached a few illegal routes myself, all I can say is that it's too bad he didn't do this a a true solo, without the photographers and publicity.


tonloc


May 11, 2006, 1:46 AM
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fuck it that boy can climb whatever else is going on...


ne_dan


May 11, 2006, 2:07 AM
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I think this was just Dean Potter making a statement saying that by protecting America's wild and natural place we are making it so that no one can enjoy them.

All be it an incredibly stupid statement, but whats done is done.

There's only one way to make the NPS happy now and it involves getting on your knees.

This doesn't take away from anything he's done before, it just makes all climbers look bad.


threefox


May 11, 2006, 3:16 AM
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I agree with the idea that he was making a statement. Let's see, he did it first thing in the morning right? Didn't I see something about climbing at dawn. Hmmm, curious isn't it?

Dawn would be a logical time to commit a criminal or an un-popular act.

Tell me he wasn't posing for the pictures we've seen. Hell, tell me all you want to and it won't change the fact that he was posing.

White chalk? Don't know anything about that. Bottom line is if he used white chalk it was an obvious slap in the face of NPS rules.

Criminal or not, it is a common fact that there are certain area's where climbing isn't wanted. This moron claims to be a part time Moab local, what an idiot.

Anyone ever heard the saying "Don't Shit Where you Eat!"

I'll bet if you took anyone NOT famous, say one of us from the general climbing community. Our ass would have received a citation at the bare minimum. Most likely there would have been a different photograph taken along with some ink on the pads of our fingers.

Can you say TRESPASSING?

Patagonia outta cut him loose, I bet they will.

Somebody from Access Fund should pay someone with a low moral turpitude to go visit him some time soon. You know, nothing serious, maybe just a few broken fingers to slow him down for a month or so.

He's as much of an ambassador for climbing as Saddam and Osama are for World Peace and Religious Freedom!

What a dumb shit!


And Potter, I'll be in Moab on the 23rd if you want to discuss this in person.


areyoumydude


May 11, 2006, 4:49 AM
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You guys really need to get a life.

Fuk the police.


alvinswill


May 11, 2006, 6:16 AM
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Shameless on his part. This is ironically what Dean's boss at Patagonia use to warn all of us about the dangers of mixing money and climbing. What a bunch of hypocrites from the top to the bottom (Dean) at Patagonia.


lonnie_utah


May 11, 2006, 11:42 AM
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Ok. Maybe Washington's nose won't work. However, "Boondocks" said they would let him climb their arch anytime he wanted, for just 5 bucks!!!!

http://home.comcast.net/~shullln/DSCN2694.JPG

If he does good, they might even let him drive the go carts!!!


lonnie_utah


May 11, 2006, 11:50 AM
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In reply to:
Shameless on his part. This is ironically what Dean's boss at Patagonia use to warn all of us about the dangers of mixing money and climbing. What a bunch of hypocrites from the top to the bottom (Dean) at Patagonia.

I'm willing to bet patagonia lets him go (cans him). I had a long talk with one of their CSR's yesterday and they say they are getting quite the call/email volume on the subject. People are pissed. The lady I spoke with said that many of the employees are "upset" by it. This is a long way to come for a company that once upon a time had photos of John Sherman crow barring bolts of a route in their catalog...


bill413


May 11, 2006, 12:58 PM
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Just, for what it's worth, a letter I sent to Patagonia:
In reply to:
Dear Sirs -

I have a lot of respect for your company, for the environmental stances it has taken. I am saddenned to learn that one of your climbing ambassadors, Dean Potter, does not have such an environmental awareness.

I am referring to the recently reported climb by Mr. Potter of Delicate Arch in Arches National Park. How could he have "studied the tiny cracks and crevices ..." for "almost 12 years" without being aware that such a climb was illegal. And, that the sandstone formations are relatively fragile.

I am a climber. I have been to Delicate Arch regularly. Yes, I understand the desire to climb it. However, I also know what the impact of allowing climbing on such a structure would be.

I would like you to convey to Mr. Potter that such actions are not good for the climbing community, and are inconsistent with his role at your company.

Thank you for your attention.


ullr


May 11, 2006, 1:39 PM
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In reply to:
You guys really need to get a life.

Fuk the police.

Unfortunately, "Fuk"ing the police in this scenario is also fucking your peers. Something I generally try to avoid doing.


photon


May 11, 2006, 2:36 PM
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Awesome climb! anyone know what he rated it?
Also, any record of a dry tool winter asent?


fitzontherocks


May 11, 2006, 2:46 PM
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There's probably some weird reason it's called DELICATE Arch.


tradclimbinfool


May 11, 2006, 3:18 PM
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Personally I find it quite impossible to believe that Potter didn't realize his actions were illegal. His statements in the newspaper article sound like total BS. Very much reminds me of the lame comments Lindsey Jacobellis made after blowing a gold medal due to showing off and pulling a bad method air in the snowboard cross at the winter games. Sometimes a lie is just too easy to spot, Dean Potter.

So, I did some digging on the NPS site to see if I could actually find their climbing regulations. Someone posted a link earlier to their one page regarding climbing. I was curious if they had recently changed any wording on this page so I checked google's cached view of the page which was recorded on May 2, 2006.
In reply to:
The rock at Arches offers excellent climbing opportunities, despite its sandy nature. Most climbing routes in the park require advanced techniques. Permits are not required, unless the trip involves an overnight stay in the backcountry.

It the responsibility of all climbers to know and obey park regulations and route closures.

Rock climbing guides to Arches and the surrounding area are available at the visitor center and through the bookstore.

Regulations

Use of motorized drills is prohibited.
Climbing is prohibited on any arch identified on current USGS 7.5 minute topographical maps; on Balanced Rock year-round; on Bubo from January 1st to June 30th; on Industrial Disease on the Devil Dog Spire from January 1st to June 30th.
The use of chalk for climbing must be of a color which blends with the native rock.
Climbers are encouraged to employ clean-climbing ethics, leave dull-colored webbing when recovery is impossible, and access climbing routes via established trails, slickrock or sandy washes.
Nothing has changed here since Potter's climb and it seems to clearly state that climbing named arches is off limits.
However, digging through the Parks Management Documents I did come across some significant changes in their climbing policy. As of February 7, 2006, this is how their climbing regulations read:
In reply to:
Rock Climbing:
The following rock climbing routes may be closed for all or a portion of the year due to
aesthetic, wildlife, or other resource related concerns:
1. Any arch identified on the current issue U.S.G.S. 7.5 minute topographical map.
2. Balanced Rock- Closed to climbing year-round.
3. Bubo- Closed from January 1st to June 30th.
4. Industrial Disease on the Devil Dog Spire is closed from January 1st to June 30th.
The use of chalk for climbing must be of a color that blends with the native rock. Webbing
left at rappel/belay points must be subdued colors that blend with the rock.
The use of motorized power drills is prohibited.
Now, only two days after Potter's ascent, on May 9, the park service has updated this document with the following wording:
In reply to:
Rock Climbing:
Definitions:
Technical Rock Climbing is defined as ascending or descending a rock formation utilizing
rock climbing equipment.
Free Climbing and Clean Aid Climbing are minimum impact approaches that employ
chocks, stoppers, nuts and camming devices, rather than pitons or bolts, for protection or
direct support. These are climbing aids that are removable and do not damage the rock.
Slacklining is defined as walking on a rope or other line that is anchored between rock
formations, trees, or any other natural features. Height of the rope above the ground is
immaterial.
The following closures, conditions, and restrictions apply to rock climbing or similar
activities such as, but not limited to, technical rock climbing, free climbing and clean aid
climbing within Arches National Park:
Closures:
1. Any arch or natural bridge named on the United States Geological Survey 7.5
minute topographical maps covering Arches National Park is closed to climbing
year-round.
2. Balanced Rock- Closed to climbing year-round.
3. Bubo- Closed from January 1st to June 30th.
3
4. Industrial Disease on the Devil Dog Spire is closed from January 1st to June
30th.
5. Slacklining is prohibited anywhere within Arches National Park year-round.
Restrictions:
No new permanent climbing hardware may be installed in any fixed location. If an
existing bolt or other hardware item is unsafe, it may be replaced. This will limit all
climbing to existing routes or new routes not requiring placement of fixed anchors.
Climbing anchors and/or protection points may not be placed with the use of a hammer
except to replace existing belay and rappel anchors and bolts on existing routes, or for
emergency self-rescue.
If an existing software item (sling, runner etc.) is unsafe, it may be replaced.
Software (webbing, accessory cords, etc.) that is left in place shall match the rock
surface in color.
The intentional removal of lichen or plants from rock is prohibited.
The physical altering of rock faces such as chiseling, glue reinforcement of existing
holds, and gluing of new holds is prohibited.
The use of motorized power drills is prohibited.
Fixed ropes may not be left in place for more than 24 hours. Fixed ropes left in place
longer than 24 hours shall be considered "abandoned property" and removed.
The use of chalk for climbing must be of a color that blends with the native rock.
I'm not really sure what to make of all this. I'm sure many of these issues have been on the minds of park officials for some time--guess they were just waiting for a Dean Potter (read that--"an arrogant ass") to come along and spur them into action. Thanks a lot buddy!


gogo


May 11, 2006, 3:34 PM
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Wow, it seems like a lot of people think that Dean Potter really was going for a fair amount of bank from climbing it . . .

Would the outcry here be the same if it were a different climber? Even if people disagree with it, a lot of this seems like an excuse to say "I don't like Dean Potter."

I also had another, hypothetical question for y'all that I've been wondering about. People flip about things like this, claiming that it is humans damaging nature, etc. Looking at a bigger perspective, though, is it really that bad? Aren't we part of nature? I understand that they say no climbing on named arches to protect them b/c they are rare geologic formations that might collapse in our lifetime, but from what I've gathered in this argument, it seems like they could potentially fall w/o anyone ever climbing on it, and Dean did climb it in the most natural way possible.

That, and I think its interesting that people are pissed about the newer, "clarified" regulations. The way most people here sound about protecting the purity of nature and such, these regulations seem to go alongside what you all want. Colored chalk, no pro just left on climbs, etc.

Sorry if there was no clear direction with what I just said, I just wanted to bring up a few points.


bill413


May 11, 2006, 3:44 PM
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The question has been asked is this a reaction specific to Dean Potter performing this act, as opposed to some other climber.

For myself, I can say that my major reaction is to any climber doing this. It is intensified by the fact that it is a high profile climber, and as such, reflects more on the community that has acquiesed in elevating him to this status.


keinangst


May 11, 2006, 4:02 PM
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My big issue with this is simply based on categorical imperative, not Potter's celeb status or sponsorship, etc.

If Potter is going to do it, then let's assume hundreds of people a day do it, too. Imagine it covered in chalk, broken holds, scuffs, black marks...and let's put a couple anchors at the top, too!

Now we have a problem. Therefore, it is wrong for anyone to do it. I don't agree with a lot of philosophers out there, but Kant was right on the money with that one. IMO it's the best way to settle most ethics questions, even in climbing.


daled


May 11, 2006, 4:05 PM
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A sample of what a person can do:

Dear Patagonia,

I have a lost a great deal of respect for your company because of the actions of Mr. Dean Potter. His climbing of Delicate Arch in Arches National Park shows an obvious disrespect for the environmental and law in general.

It is clear that this uncaring climbing ambassador was in it for his own personal reasons without regard for the rest of the climbing community. His actions whether he acknowledges it or not, reflect on the rest of the climbing community.

I regret to say that if this is the sort of behavior endorsed by Patagonia that I will no longer be able to support your company by purchasing your products. Certainly you do have a choice in which climbers you support and those climbers should have proper climbing morals and ethics. Mr. Dean Potter showed neither moral nor ethical judgment by his climbing of this fragile National Treasure.


All you have to do is send this to Patagonia if you disagree with Mr. Potter's actions and his connection with Patagonia. To be "dropped" by Patagonia may help Mr. Potter to think about his future actions in climbing.

Just my thoughts,

Dale


bill413


May 11, 2006, 4:17 PM
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Dale - that letter is so much better than mine. Very nice.


dingus


May 11, 2006, 4:21 PM
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In reply to:
It is clear that this uncaring climbing ambassador was in it for his own personal reasons without regard for the rest of the climbing community.

I'd dare say that applies to most climbers. I am certainly not into climbing for the benefit of the rest of the community.

That said, I do understand your point *about this particular incident*.

I don't think this deal warrants the ruination of a career though. I urge you good folks to not over react, to take a deep breath and ask yourselves how many times you might have lost your job over a mistake but did not, due to someone else's compassion and forgivenness.

Be not too hasty in going after someone's job!

(I anticipate the 'but CLIMBING ambassador IS his job...) and the point is well taken. I still urge you folks to stop look and listen before crssong the tracks into the 'off with his head' realm.

Cheers
DMT


climbingbums


May 11, 2006, 4:21 PM
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lame, but cool... but mostly lame.


golsen


May 11, 2006, 4:29 PM
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In reply to:
I also had another, hypothetical question for y'all that I've been wondering about. People flip about things like this, claiming that it is humans damaging nature, etc. Looking at a bigger perspective, though, is it really that bad? Aren't we part of nature?

We are all a part of nature. Sex is natural. But most of us dont video tape or photograph those natural things. Unless you are getting paid for it...


erclimb


May 11, 2006, 4:29 PM
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yeah, we're "part of nature, too", only we have something that the rest of nature doesn't--the ability to consciously direct our behavior...a 200-pound bear doesn't climb a tree (or rock) for fun or to test his limits or to seek a spiritual connection with the tree...so we can choose to treat nature with reverence or simply as a resource

i think most climbers choose to treat nature with reverence (to greater or lesser degrees); that's why we honor regulations on bolting, parking, approaching, etc.; we want to preserve the land even if our motivation isn't entirely selfless...

potter's decision to climb this spectacular formation tells me that he sees the rock as simply a resource for his own pleasure (or career)...there are still thousands of first ascents to be made around the world, and he cold have patagonia fund his expeditions to climb any of them...

further, perhaps the arch means nothing to him, but it means a great deal to many others...doesn't that deserve some respect?

the analogy to hueco has one problem...the regulations at hueco protect the damage done to the rocks by other humans...seriously, nobody has any idea what the petroglyphs mean...for all we know, they could simply be ancient graffitti: "the chief is a d---head"...however, just by speaking facetiously about hueco i will draw the wrath of many "pure" climbers

we should protect hueco and the arches and many other places...otherwise, why not drill in anwr or build a luxury home development outside red rock canyon or a tram across the grand canyon?


fitzontherocks


May 11, 2006, 4:36 PM
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If your're gonna write, you might need this:

Casey Sheahan, President, CEO
Patagonia
8550 White Fir St.
Reno, NV 89523


Partner tgreene


May 11, 2006, 4:44 PM
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I will offer that any letter or email that is sent to Patagonia would be taken MUCH more seriously if a spell and grammer checker were to be used. ;)

Ranting is one thing, but intelligent ranting gets far better results... unless u'Re bitchan about Nascar.


fitzontherocks


May 11, 2006, 4:50 PM
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That's grammar, not grammer. :wink:

(And I know I spelled "you're" as "your're." I goofed.)


ullr


May 11, 2006, 6:41 PM
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Recent press about this incredible climb:

Deseret News


New West

Outdoornewswire

Salt Lake Trib

Salt Lake Trib

Charlotte Observer

Yahoo News

The Olympian

Knick Knack

KUTV[/rul]

Helena Independent

Meta Filter

National Park Traveler

Plenty of negative press outside the climbing community.


roy_hinkley_jr


May 11, 2006, 6:56 PM
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http://extras.mnginteractive.com/..._073955_05112006.jpg


hugepedro


May 11, 2006, 7:30 PM
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I sent a letter to Patagonia. I also sent a letter to Arches N.P. expressing my disgust with Potter's actions and my support for Park rules.


Partner cracklover


May 11, 2006, 7:40 PM
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I agree with Dingus in this: I'm psyched that there are people like Potter out there pushing the limits. Pushing limits is what we all do as climbers, so I think he's a fair ambassador in that way.

I agree with others in this: I think the way he went about it was wrong. I don't know if he deserves to lose his job or not. I have no desire to influence that decision one way or another.

Here's my take on the whole situation: As climbers we need to balance our desire to "go for it" with our self-regulating instinct, or we'll take a bad fall. I think Dean Potter has taken a bad fall - he just may not know it.

GO


roy_hinkley_jr


May 11, 2006, 10:33 PM
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In reply to:
From the Access Fund:

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
May 10, 2006

Contact:
Robb Shurr, Access Fund
robb@accessfund.org
303.545.6772 x100
Access Fund Condemns Delicate Arch, UT Climb

A recent ascent of Delicate Arch in Utah’s Arches National Park has fueled a firestorm of media coverage and interest from federal land managers, politicians and the climbing community. See Park tweaks rules after Delicate Arch climb in the May 10 edition of the SALT LAKE TRIBUNE (http://www.sltrib.com/ci_3804296). Many individuals—both climbers and non-climbers—have expressed outrage at this event, and the climb has received both statewide and national media attention.

The Access Fund does not condone the climb of Delicate Arch and the actions of this individual are not representative of the climbing community.

The Access Fund supports justifiable climbing restrictions which protect natural and cultural resources and works towards effective and reasonable climbing management policies is cooperation with land managers and the greater climbing community. This process of discussion limits unnecessary restrictions, results in climbing management policies based on mutual agreement, and helps to ensure cooperation and effective enforcement of climbing policies.

We trust the public will understand that the actions of one person should not condemn the larger community of climbers who are equally appalled by this event. The Access Fund urges all climbers to recognize and limit the impacts of their climbing practices on the environment and other users of the land and to respect existing closures. If questionable restrictions arise, climbing advocacy efforts opposing such unreasonable restrictions should follow proper administrative procedures.

Climbers pride ourselves on respect for the environment and the Access Fund’s stewardship efforts around the country speak directly to the greater climbing public taking responsibility for climbing resources.

They sent out a revised press release today. Same as above but with one extra paragraph.
In reply to:
On May 10, Access Fund policy director Jason Keith met with Arches National Park Supervisor Laura Joss to address these incidents as they relate to future climbing access in Arches National Park. At this meeting the Access Fund was told that while no immediate additional restrictions are planned, future climbing access in Arches and other national parks may be restricted as a result of the Delicate Arch incident. Utah’s US Congressional delegation has also weighed in but the possibility of additional restrictions is not known at this time.

Thanks Dean! You're a true inspiration to climbers everywhere.


od


May 11, 2006, 10:43 PM
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if you're gonna do something like this, do it for yourself, not for the camera or video .... and then repeating it several times! I guess he thinks it supports the patagonia 'dirtbag' badboy image -- it would ... if you didnt have it photographed! I dont think Croft had someone take photos of him soloing Astroman. what a promo homo ....


jaybro


May 11, 2006, 11:07 PM
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"Plenty of negative press outside the climbing community."

I'll take your word for it, but, I just read through this list (posted above the above quote) and there is really nothing as critical as what is written on this thread; only one blanket condemnation.

Hasn't it been fifteen minutes already?


crimpandgo


May 11, 2006, 11:21 PM
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In reply to:
"Plenty of negative press outside the climbing community."

I'll take your word for it, but, I just read through this list (posted above the above quote) and there is really nothing as critical as what is written on this thread; only one blanket condemnation.

Hasn't it been fifteen minutes already?

So, you don't think the NPS considering closures of climbing areas based on DP's recent activities is critical enough?


rhythm164


May 11, 2006, 11:44 PM
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In reply to:
I guess he thinks it supports the patagonia 'dirtbag' badboy image .

Is that the same dirtbag badboy image that embodies one of the most environmentally aware companies in business today? I can think of more than a few adjectives to describe Patagonia, 'badboy' doesn't make the list. Dirtbag however, does. :D


c-dub
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Access issues are always touchy. On the one hand, people are always fighting to keep their favorite climbing area open. On the other hand, there is a healthy debate over what to keep open and what to designate off limits. My question is this: what makes a rock more beautiful than the next? Why should someone not be allowed to FREE SOLO - the purest form of climbing that is widely considered by the climbing community as a clean, responsible way of climbing - one rock formation that is in a national park, but be allowed to bolt the hell out of another rock formation that happens to be a little “off the map”? Why is delicate arch any more off limits than any other rock? Just because it’s more cool looking than the other rocks in the park?

I would say that dean potter should not have climbed delicate arch, solely because it was against park rules and is bad for a sensitive access area. However, access issues in arches, I feel like, should focus more on the delicate ecosystem surrounding the rocks than focusing on the rock itself. How many climbers tromp all over the desert within the park to climbs with blatant disregard of the delicate ground on which they walk? I’ve seen plenty myself. I don’t condone putting bolted anchors on delicate arch, but as long as potter climbed the arch in a clean and ethical way (publicity aside) I don’t feel that he deserves all of this criticism.

Oh, and as for the white chalk: whatever, that shit’ll buff out.

People are a bit too uptight about things like this...park service included. If they want to start closing climbs down because of this, they need to check themselves.


roy_hinkley_jr


May 12, 2006, 1:44 AM
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In reply to:
My question is this: what makes a rock more beautiful than the next? Why should someone not be allowed to FREE SOLO - the purest form of climbing that is widely considered by the climbing community as a clean, responsible way of climbing - one rock formation that is in a national park, but be allowed to bolt the hell out of another rock formation that happens to be a little “off the map”? Why is delicate arch any more off limits than any other rock? Just because it’s more cool looking than the other rocks in the park?

Sounds like you haven't spent much time there. Hang out for a while and pay attention to who shows up. Yeah, there's the typical fastfoodfed tourons showing up in droves...who might not have otherwise gotten off their butts for a hike (is that a bad thing?). There's also an polyglot of tourists (lots of Germans IME) from around the world who paid the fee and make the trek to that specific rock because there are no others like it on the planet. At most dawns and sunsets when it isn't cloudy, you'll find serious photographers who drag a lot of heavy equipment to get an icon shot.

NONE of these people want to see selfish punks standing on top of that rock. That particular rock stands out like no other (only Landscape, Rainbow and a couple others even come close). A climber on ElCap, a Zion wall, or almost anywhere else you can name is insignificant. On top of an arch, they are a visual blight with far greater impact. Climbers seem to think they have more rights than anyone else. Potter thinks he's above all others...just another pissant who'll be forgotten in a decade, only he leaves a legacy of more regulation.


threefox


May 12, 2006, 4:11 AM
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In reply to:
You guys really need to get a life.

Fuk the police.

Ya you're about intelligent.

Actually, I think your post took some considerable thought and preparation. It's of a quality that we seldom see. Thanks so much for showing us how well public education is preparing the leaders of tomorrow..

Adam


dudemanbu


May 12, 2006, 5:20 AM
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Honestly, idiots doing things like this are the reason that we have access problems.


areyoumydude


May 12, 2006, 7:16 AM
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In reply to:
In reply to:
You guys really need to get a life.

Fuk the police.

Thanks so much for showing us how well public education is preparing the leaders of tomorrow..

Adam

You're welcome.


areyoumydude


May 12, 2006, 7:18 AM
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In reply to:
In reply to:
You guys really need to get a life.

Fuk the police.

Thanks so much for showing us how well public education is preparing the leaders of tomorrow..

Adam

You're welcome.


azrockclimber


May 12, 2006, 12:46 PM
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In reply to:
I agree with Dingus in this: I'm psyched that there are people like Potter out there pushing the limits. Pushing limits is what we all do as climbers, so I think he's a fair ambassador in that way.

I agree with others in this: I think the way he went about it was wrong. I don't know if he deserves to lose his job or not. I have no desire to influence that decision one way or another.

Here's my take on the whole situation: As climbers we need to balance our desire to "go for it" with our self-regulating instinct, or we'll take a bad fall. I think Dean Potter has taken a bad fall - he just may not know it.

GO

I think he went about it in a selfish manor. It was stupid..yes.. Why film it? ego? I dunno...not cool though.

I am not pissed enough about it that I want to try and get the guy fired :wtf: by writing a letter to patagonia and the NPS and shit. Thats a little extreme. Get you panties out of a bunch and suck it up all of those who are all butt sore about it.

A letter to the NPS touching on how you do not support his actions and that he is one rogue among many who do obey the rules there.

Next time you see him tell him it was f'ed up. He knows it already...Trying to get him fired or his spnsorship canceled is F'ed up... Fine him $2000.00 or whatever figure would be appropraite. ( I have no idea how much those guys make??)
...something like that would be pretty normal I would say.


fitzontherocks


May 12, 2006, 3:16 PM
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C-dub, it's called DELICATE Arch for a reason. Look at the photo. One of the legs on the arch narrows to about 3-4'. And it's sandstone, not granite. It is, um, how you say-- delicate! Probably had something to do with why they put it off limits. It's not out of the realm of possibility that a 200-pounder could do some damage to it.


dingus


May 12, 2006, 4:02 PM
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In reply to:
Honestly, idiots doing things like this are the reason that we have access problems.

Can you cite examples? I can't think of any frankly, where the actions of a sole climber caused the loss of access for an entire area.

Please advise, thanks
DMT


rockprodigy


May 12, 2006, 4:06 PM
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OK, I can't take it any more. The reason it is called "Delicate Arch":

The arch in question was originally called "Landscape Arch" becuase of it's dramatic position in front of an expansive desert. Another arch in the park was named "Delicate Arch" because it is very narrow (perhaps 3-4 feet), while covering a large (120ft?) span. This arch would never purposely be called "Landscape Arch" because the scenery is actually quite dull. Behind the arch is just a wall of red entrada sandstone...no landscape whatsoever. Sometime in the "olden days" a mapmaker screwed up a map, and switched the names of Landscape and Delicate Arch, so now we call Landscape Arch "Delicate Arch" and Delicate Arch "Landscape Arch".

That said, the arch is delicate (which anyone who has climbed in Arches and seen the damage should understand), but that's not why it's called "Delicate Arch". It's called that because someone made a mistake once upon a time.


dingus


May 12, 2006, 4:10 PM
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In reply to:
Next time you see him tell him it was f'ed up. He knows it already...Trying to get him fired or his spnsorship canceled is F'ed up... Fine him $2000.00 or whatever figure would be appropraite. ( I have no idea how much those guys make??)
...something like that would be pretty normal I would say.

This is where I'm coming from too. The off with his head crowd, quien sabe, perhaps one day they'll be drinking their own koolaide for some stupid thing they did too. Not that I wish it on them either.

It would appear that he isn't going to be fined however. The missing pound of flesh, from whence will it be carved?

DMT


fitzontherocks


May 12, 2006, 4:13 PM
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Someone made another mistake on Sunday.


helios


May 12, 2006, 4:20 PM
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Rockprodigy condescended:
In reply to:
OK, I can't take it any more. The reason it is called "Delicate Arch":

The arch in question was originally called "Landscape Arch" becuase of it's dramatic position in front of an expansive desert. Another arch in the park was named "Delicate Arch" because it is very narrow (perhaps 3-4 feet), while covering a large (120ft?) span. This arch would never purposely be called "Landscape Arch" because the scenery is actually quite dull. Behind the arch is just a wall of red entrada sandstone...no landscape whatsoever. Sometime in the "olden days" a mapmaker screwed up a map, and switched the names of Landscape and Delicate Arch, so now we call Landscape Arch "Delicate Arch" and Delicate Arch "Landscape Arch".

Oh RRY?

From Wikipedia:

Because of its distinctive shape, the arch was known as "the Chaps" and "the Schoolmarm's Bloomers" by local cowboys. It was given its current name by Frank Beckwith, leader of the Arches National Monument Scientific Expedition, who explored the area in the winter of 1933-1934. (The story that the names of Delicate Arch and Landscape Arch were inadvertently exchanged due to a signage mixup by the National Park Service is false.)


roy_hinkley_jr


May 12, 2006, 4:32 PM
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In reply to:
Because of its distinctive shape, the arch was known as "the Chaps" and "the Schoolmarm's Bloomers" by local cowboys. It was given its current name by Frank Beckwith, leader of the Arches National Monument Scientific Expedition, who explored the area in the winter of 1933-1934. (The story that the names of Delicate Arch and Landscape Arch were inadvertently exchanged due to a signage mixup by the National Park Service is false.)

Yep. According to the USGS web site (http://geonames.usgs.gov), other early names included: Bloomers Arch, Mary's Bloomers, Old Maids Bloomers, Pants Crtoch, Salt Wash Arch, School Marms Pants, Schoolmarms Bloomers, and The Chaps.


roy_hinkley_jr


May 12, 2006, 4:47 PM
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In reply to:
This is where I'm coming from too. The off with his head crowd, quien sabe, perhaps one day they'll be drinking their own koolaide for some stupid thing they did too. Not that I wish it on them either.

Sponsored athletes are on annual contracts. There is no guarantee it will be renewed automatically. That decision comes down to many factors including performance, behavior, exposure, etc. A company has to evaluate how and where it's limited advertising dollars are best spent. In this case, a paid spokesperson has single-handedly managed to get an entire activity (dumb as it is) banned from a national park and focused negative attention on the brand. Perhaps when dangling from a string, you should think twice about cutting it.


dingus


May 12, 2006, 5:02 PM
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A quick point and a question:

In reply to:
Sponsored athletes are on annual contracts. There is no guarantee it will be renewed automatically. That decision comes down to many factors including performance, behavior, exposure, etc. A company has to evaluate how and where it's limited advertising dollars are best spent.

Understood. What patagonia does or doesn't do with respect to Potter is obviously their perogitive. I wasn't calling on them to fire or not fire Potter. I am talking about those who contact Patagonia in a specific effort to get Potter fired, at least some of whom have never even set foot in Arches NP.

In reply to:
In this case, a paid spokesperson has single-handedly managed to get an entire activity (dumb as it is) banned from a national park and focused negative attention on the brand. Perhaps when dangling from a string, you should think twice about cutting it.

Question (sincere): Earlier in this thread you made the point that Potter parsed the existing regulations to create his loophole (I agreed with that assessment btw). The park reacted the next day by rewording the existing reg. You stated uis said basically the same thing. Then I guess that two days later additional rock climbing regulations were published as well. I read through it and thought it again stated climbing was prohibited on named arches? And too, there is the prohitition against new routing... is THAT the banning you speak of? Cause the way I read that post... existing routes can be climbed and even maintained so long as power tools don't come into play.

Please advise (and peace be upon you my brother)

DMT


killclimbz


May 12, 2006, 5:18 PM
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In reply to:
In reply to:
This is where I'm coming from too. The off with his head crowd, quien sabe, perhaps one day they'll be drinking their own koolaide for some stupid thing they did too. Not that I wish it on them either.

Sponsored athletes are on annual contracts. There is no guarantee it will be renewed automatically. That decision comes down to many factors including performance, behavior, exposure, etc. A company has to evaluate how and where it's limited advertising dollars are best spent. In this case, a paid spokesperson has single-handedly managed to get an entire activity (dumb as it is) banned from a national park and focused negative attention on the brand. Perhaps when dangling from a string, you should think twice about cutting it.

I don't remember seeing that climbing has been banned because of this. I've seen the Park Service threaten a ban. Which is something they love to do as a scare tactic to try to keep from others pulling the same stunt.

Am I wrong???


Partner j_ung


May 12, 2006, 5:21 PM
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In reply to:
FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE

Media Contact:
Robb Shurr, Access Fund
303-545-6772 x100
robb@accessfund.org

Policy Information Contact:

Jason Keith, Access Fund
303.545.6772 x102
jason@accessfund.org

Access Fund Condemns Recent Climb of Delicate Arch, UT

May 11, 2006, Boulder, CO- A recent ascent of Delicate Arch in Utah's Arches National Park has fueled a firestorm of media coverage and interest from federal land managers, politicians and the climbing community. See Park tweaks rules after Delicate Arch climb in the May 10
edition of the SALT LAKE TRIBUNE (http://www.sltrib.com/ci_3804296). Many individuals-both climbers and non-climbers-have expressed outrage at this event, and the climb has received both statewide and national media attention.

The Access Fund does not condone the climb of Delicate Arch and the
actions of this individual are not representative of the climbing community.

The Access Fund supports justifiable climbing restrictions which protect natural and cultural resources and works towards effective and reasonable climbing management policies in cooperation with land managers and the greater climbing community. This process of discussion limits unnecessary restrictions, results in climbing management policies based on mutual agreement, and helps to ensure cooperation and effective enforcement of climbing policies.

We trust the public will understand that the actions of one person should not condemn the larger community of climbers who are equally appalled by this event. The Access Fund urges all climbers to recognize and limit the impacts of their climbing practices on the environment and other users of the land and to respect existing closures. If questionable restrictions arise, climbing advocacy efforts opposing such unreasonable restrictions should follow proper administrative procedures.

Climbers pride themselves on respect for the environment and the Access
Fund's stewardship efforts around the country illustrate how the greater climbing public takes responsibility for their climbing resources.

On May 10, Access Fund policy director Jason Keith met with Arches National Park Supervisor Laura Joss to address these incidents as they relate to future climbing access in Arches National Park. At this meeting the Access Fund was told that while no immediate additional restrictions are planned, future climbing access in Arches and other national parks may be restricted as a result of the Delicate Arch incident. Utah's US Congressional delegation has also weighed in but the possibility of additional restrictions is not known at this time.


hugepedro


May 12, 2006, 5:26 PM
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In reply to:
In reply to:
Honestly, idiots doing things like this are the reason that we have access problems.

Can you cite examples? I can't think of any frankly, where the actions of a sole climber caused the loss of access for an entire area.

Please advise, thanks
DMT

Dingus,
He said, “access problems.” I think that is a bit broader than just closures. It might be useful to look at that question from another angle.

Climbing in one of my favorite areas was banned in the ‘90’s - The Wichita Mountains Wildlife Refuge in Oklahoma. Not only was this an entire area that was closed, but it was the best (and in many cases only) climbing resource in a multi-state area.

It was decided that climbing was not a use that was compatible with the purpose of the Refuge. It was only through hard work by dedicated climbers that they were able to convince the land manager that climbing was not only compatible, but that climbers were among the “best” user groups who visited the area. After a long struggle, access was restored.

The image of climbers as a user group is very important. In the case of the Wichita Mountains, the land manager’s perception of climbers was rather neutral, yet it took a tremendous effort to change that perception from neutral to positive, and without that shift in perception access would have never been restored.

I don’t think it’s a great stretch to consider the possibility that Potter’s antics will make it more difficult in future access issues to make a case for climbers being a “good” user group. The more actions like this - especially highly visible ones, by highly visible climbers, in areas managed by very powerful land managers (the NPS controls a vast inventory of climbing resources) - the more difficult it will be to change those perceptions from negative, or even neutral, to positive ones.


killclimbz


May 12, 2006, 5:29 PM
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^^^ Threats not bans. I've read where the tightening of the regulations has resulted in a ban of any sort of climbing on all named natural bridges and arches. That makes sense.

So far there is this threat of a ban but there is not ban on climbing. Sounds like a bunch of saber rattling to me.


roy_hinkley_jr


May 12, 2006, 5:50 PM
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In reply to:
I don't remember seeing that climbing has been banned because of this.

Correct, it was slacklining that Potter got banned from his stunt in September. Good riddance but somehow I doubt that was the desired outcome. All he did this time was weasel out of a fine by pretending that free soloing isn't climbing so that he could commune with his ego. Personally, I think he should stay sponsored and be required to put in at least 150 hours of communtiy service (a la Fatali). See Dougald's post on The Mountain World blog about how Kurt Smith attoned for his lesser screw up...way better example than Potter so far.


clayman


May 12, 2006, 5:52 PM
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In reply to:
I am talking about those who contact Patagonia in a specific effort to get Potter fired, at least some of whom have never even set foot in Arches NP.
DMT

Not trying to start anything here, and I agree with you about the firing business, I really don't care one way or the other. But, why can't people care and be involved in issues about places they have never been too? (ANWR comes to mind).

cl


dingus


May 12, 2006, 5:57 PM
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In reply to:
But, why can't people care and be involved in issues about places they have never been too? (ANWR comes to mind).

cl

No reason, but I am suspect of distant calls for firings. I question the motives behind the call for dismissal.

Cheers
DMT


sidepull


May 12, 2006, 5:58 PM
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In reply to:
^^^ Threats not bans. I've read where the tightening of the regulations has resulted in a ban of any sort of climbing on all named natural bridges and arches. That makes sense.

So far there is this threat of a ban but there is not ban on climbing. Sounds like a bunch of saber rattling to me.

but i think that misses two points 1) a saber rattling environment casts a negative halo on other access issues, so even if areas aren't closed because of this, the stunt will force climbers to work harder to maintain access because they have to overcome the negativity associated with this. 2) wouldn't you rather not have anyone making threats because some selfish twit decided to feel vibrations on top of Delicate Arch?


tradmanclimbs


May 12, 2006, 6:09 PM
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Cut his balls off and throw them to the wolves :twisted: If he had stealth climbed it at midnight for himself that would be one thing but the publicity stunt video thang was pretty fckn stuuuupiidd


killclimbz


May 12, 2006, 6:43 PM
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In reply to:
In reply to:
^^^ Threats not bans. I've read where the tightening of the regulations has resulted in a ban of any sort of climbing on all named natural bridges and arches. That makes sense.

So far there is this threat of a ban but there is not ban on climbing. Sounds like a bunch of saber rattling to me.

but i think that misses two points 1) a saber rattling environment casts a negative halo on other access issues, so even if areas aren't closed because of this, the stunt will force climbers to work harder to maintain access because they have to overcome the negativity associated with this. 2) wouldn't you rather not have anyone making threats because some selfish twit decided to feel vibrations on top of Delicate Arch?

Don't get me wrong. What Dean did was very detrimental. Another stunt like this in the near future by anyone, could cause an outright ban. That could go NPS wide. Hmm Yosemite without climbing....

Give it a few months, a year, heck maybe a week and the policticians will move onto the next hot subject. The biggest thing for climbers is to not repeat this, and make sure that the powers that be understand this was the act of an individual, not a community attitude. Seems that the Access Fund is working to make sure of this.

Repurcussions should fall on Dean's shoulders, not the other users who respect the regulations of the NPS.

The reality is climbing is not banned at this time. Play by the rules and chances are that is not going to change. I honestly think that if this had of been done as a "stealth" mission a climbing ban would have been more likely if the park service noticed that the arch had been climbed. By chalk marks, left slings whatever. Then they would just know "climbers" are breaking the regulation vs a "climber" broke them. Group vs individual etc...


alpinismo_flujo


May 12, 2006, 6:50 PM
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Potter has the opportunity to climb anywhere in the world...anytime (when access is LEGAL)...doing the Delicate Arch = wanker.


dingus


May 12, 2006, 6:52 PM
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In reply to:
Another stunt like this in the near future by anyone, could cause an outright ban. That could go NPS wide. Hmm Yosemite without climbing....

I agree with the underlying point, but come on now... they are not going to ban climbing in Yosemite over incidents in Arches NP. That just isn't going to happen.

DMT


tradmanclimbs


May 12, 2006, 6:59 PM
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With this administration anything can happen. Wouldn't supprise me if they screwed up so bad that there was no mony left for NPS so they just shut them all down. Lock the gates and walk away just like a scrapped military base. maby Bid them all out to the oil and copper companys :roll:


tradmanclimbs


May 12, 2006, 7:00 PM
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With this administration anything can happen. Wouldn't supprise me if they screwed up so bad that there was no mony left for NPS so they just shut them all down. Lock the gates and walk away just like a scrapped military base. maby Bid them all out to the oil and copper companys :roll:


killclimbz


May 12, 2006, 7:03 PM
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In reply to:
In reply to:
Another stunt like this in the near future by anyone, could cause an outright ban. That could go NPS wide. Hmm Yosemite without climbing....

I agree with the underlying point, but come on now... they are not going to ban climbing in Yosemite over incidents in Arches NP. That just isn't going to happen.

DMT

I didn't think I would get you to bite on that one! :lol: There is mention of a ban affecting all National Parks, but yeah there is no way a ban of climbing in Yosemite would happen.


dingus


May 12, 2006, 7:09 PM
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Cheers buddy!

DMT


roy_hinkley_jr


May 12, 2006, 7:26 PM
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So now the ugly truth emerges. Turns out ol' Dean rehearsed the climb with a top rope. He used a bow and arrow to shoot a line over the arch then pulled a rope over. Apparently made several ascents before his poser climb in front of the cameras. I retract my earlier comment about hoping he doesn't lose his contract. Pathetic loser.


golsen


May 12, 2006, 7:47 PM
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So roy, where did you get the ugly truth? Just curious.

The desert landscape is fragile, wild and beautiful. I started climbing in Arches about 25 years ago, and at the time I was somewhat surprised that climbing was allowed. I still think that being allowed to climb anything in Arches is a privilege. One needs only look at some of the other NP’s in Utah (ie: Capitol Reef) to find more stringent climbing restrictions (leave no trace restrictions). IMO the access is pretty good in Arches NP. Climbers can already summit many named and obvious towers such as 3 Penguins and 3 Gossips that are very obvious from the road. While Dean may not have left a trace other than chalk, I believe that his selfishness has risked access for the climbing community and the rest of us punters. While it may have been spiritual for him it will no doubt be seen as a publicity stunt to the mainstream public.

If DP had climbed the thing and stroked his self in secret, then good for him. Then it would have been between him and the rock. Commune with nature he says? Cool, why the cameras and publicity then?


delarig


May 12, 2006, 7:57 PM
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"It's not the end of the world. He free soloed an arch. Woo Woo. At least he did'nt scar our countries' rock with pro like everyone else here does. Did you notice that Potter did'nt get fined? That's because he did'nt hurt the rock...at all. People climb "Ancient Art" all the time and that thing is WAY, WAY more fragile than Delicate Arch. Yet you don't see climbers getting chatised for climbing it. Why? It's because this argument is all about Dean Potter conforming to laws and technical regulations rather than his lack of respect for nature. How is Delicate Arch any different than Ancient Art? It's because it's in a National Park that is choked with the exhaust of hundreds of thousands of tourist cars stopping by on their way to Disneyland, all paying $20 to go look at an arch they saw on a postcard. Who is truly exploiting nature...Potter or the NPS? Hmmmmm? He climbed it with the highest level of respect. Props!!"


sspssp


May 12, 2006, 9:40 PM
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In reply to:
In reply to:
Another stunt like this in the near future by anyone, could cause an outright ban. That could go NPS wide. Hmm Yosemite without climbing....

I agree with the underlying point, but come on now... they are not going to ban climbing in Yosemite over incidents in Arches NP. That just isn't going to happen.

DMT

Overnight an outright ban. Unlikely. But individual climbers pulling stupid tricks gives the government/NPS/whoever a better reason to add regulations. Say, requiring every climber to register. So that they can force climbers to listen to a lecture about the do's and don'ts of climbing in the area, keep track of imacts, and possibly aid enforcement when a climber does something they shouldn't.

Then you get regulation creep where more restrictions are added, instead of a "registration" system you get a "permit" system where the number of permits (and the area they are good for) is limited and on, and on, and on.

If we want to keep the free spirit/unregulated aspect of climbing legal, there are a lot of things the climbing community can do to help or hurt.

Climbing Delicate Arch sure isn't helping.


roadman33


May 13, 2006, 5:29 AM
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Dean Potter is a fucking hypocrite....

I hope Patagonia has the sense to drop his sponsorship!

I'm writing Patagonia to ask them to stop supporting him.


mattyp


May 13, 2006, 1:22 PM
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Laws? Who writes those laws? Who do they pertain to? I suppose it is becoming more and more obvious that our legislative body isn't for the people by the people. More like for special interest by special interest and we just get in the way.
Did he hurt the arch? Is it going to fall down? No. Oh no, white chalk! Isn't that stuff water soluble? I know it doesn't rain much in the desert, but when it does, it really comes down and will probably manage to wash that "nasty white stuff" off the rock.
Nature isn't there for us to put in a box and wonder at. It was ALL wilderness at one point, but nobody seems to have a problem living up in the Rockies or out in the forested sides of the Cascades. I don't condone abusing our planet, but get real people, it is here for us.


jabtocrag


May 13, 2006, 7:30 PM
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In reply to:
"It's not the end of the world. He free soloed an arch. Woo Woo. At least he did'nt scar our countries' rock with pro like everyone else here does. Did you notice that Potter did'nt get fined? That's because he did'nt hurt the rock...at all. People climb "Ancient Art" all the time and that thing is WAY, WAY more fragile than Delicate Arch. Yet you don't see climbers getting chatised for climbing it. Why? It's because this argument is all about Dean Potter conforming to laws and technical regulations rather than his lack of respect for nature. How is Delicate Arch any different than Ancient Art? It's because it's in a National Park that is choked with the exhaust of hundreds of thousands of tourist cars stopping by on their way to Disneyland, all paying $20 to go look at an arch they saw on a postcard. Who is truly exploiting nature...Potter or the NPS? Hmmmmm? He climbed it with the highest level of respect. Props!!"

:roll:

Just because he hasn't been fined doesn't mean he won't be. And if you really think that the NPS is exploiting nature for what can only be called financial gain (why else??), then you really know nothing about the organization and what they do with park proceeds.


maldaly


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After I heard this many people asked me to chime in with my opinion. My first reaction was one of shock. Why would he do that? As a founding board member of the Access Fund this was the ultimate insult, wasn't it? As I watched this thread grow and mutate into a hate fest I realized I had heard nothing but heresay and third party innuendo. That was when I decided to get in touch with Dean and Steph to listen to their story before I spewed.

Here's the deal: Dean asked a park ranger if it was okay to climb Delicate Arch and was given the go-ahead. At the time of Dean's climb, one week ago today, the official regulation said that "...named arches may be closed for all or a portion of the year due to aesthetic, wildlife or other resource-related concerns." What was on their website was NOT in the regulations. Loophole? Perhaps, but certainly one that I'd take advantage of if I was in any shape to climb something like Delicate.

So let's back off and cool down a bit. What Dean did was legal, authorized and pre-aproved by the NPS. (If it was illegal Dean would be either sitting in jail or looking at a hefty fine. All the NPS has done since is to tighten up their regulations. You may or may not agree with his decision to publicize the climb but that's Dean's deal, not yours. How many of you have seeked approval for climbing on a new cliff before climbing it?

I stand in awe of what he did. Bravo Dean.

I just spoke with Dean (Sunday Morning) and he apologized for being somewhat of a luddite in regards to internet protocol. He does email but not much more so he hasn't been following these threads. He's just been suffering the blowback and you can imagine it's a lot. I encouraged him to pipe in here in the next few days if he can.

I support the NPS' new closure of the Arch to climbing. No doubt some idiot would bolt it (legal or not) and lots of traffic would ruin it

"There, but for the grace of God, go I"

Mal


roadman33


May 15, 2006, 5:22 AM
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Mal,

Dean was in the wrong and it's sad that you're out here blowing this BS horn saying his shit don't stink. He's just a hypocrite. And yes I've met him, heard him speak and yes he's pretty self-righteous.

Oh and if he plans on selling his images or video from the climb he better have a filming permit! Because it’s very illegal to break that LAW in any national park.


treez


May 15, 2006, 5:40 AM
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Maybe he can get sponsored by Bad Idea Jeans.


mdude


May 15, 2006, 5:41 AM
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Looks like the letter of the law has prevailed and the spirit of the law has been denied.

Great, another legal loophole. Looks like everyone's definition of "CLIMBING" is different.

Maybe Dean Potter should run for President and Malcolm Daly as Vice President.


mdude


May 15, 2006, 5:54 AM
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OOOH Yeah.

NPS immediately changed the regulations to meet the spirit of the law.

Now they really mean it. Thanks Dean. Loopholes are closing down.

BTW

NPS has a history of being lenient to the law breakers.

Just a couple of years ago some base jumpers were caught in Canyonlands. The Chief Ranger was to much of a wimp to even fine them.

Not everyone goes to jail even when they have earned it.

List goes on.


curt


May 15, 2006, 5:56 AM
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Those who support Potter's illicit ascent of Delicate Arch appear to fall into the following groups:

1) His friends.
2) Those longing for the return of the good-old-days of counterculture climbing ethics.
3) Stupid people.

Some of his supporters may cross boundaries and fall into more than one of the above categories. Make no mistake--this is not the climbing environment that we enjoyed in the '60s and '70s. There are now orders of magnitude more climbers using our National Parks and other managed lands. We create more impact. We are more visible. We climbers and our activities no longer "fly under the radar" where a rather public stunt like this would recieve relatively little notice.

There is constant discussion these days at both Federal and local levels regarding exactly how much regulation is necessary to keep climbers and other users of public land from running amok. Actions like Potter's recent ascent in Arches NP can only have a negative impact on the future of climbing access from which we all will suffer.

As John Stannard told me 25 years ago, "if we (climbers) can't effectively regulate ourselves--regulation will surely be imposed on us." Something to think about...

Curt


mdude


May 15, 2006, 5:57 AM
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OOH Yeah again.

Canyonlands NP is just across the street. They have climbing restrictions there too.

I would bet that they are tightening the regs too.

Watch out. We could lose both places pretty fast.

MD


dingus


May 15, 2006, 2:52 PM
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In reply to:
As John Stannard told me 25 years ago, "if we (climbers) can't effectively regulate ourselves--regulation will surely be imposed on us." Something to think about...

Curt

Right. That's what internet lynch mobs are for, to police ourselves.

So we can hang people even before we have all the facts. So we can get people fired from real jobs for some stupid stunt they pulled on the rock.

That's how we climbers police one another.

DMT


Partner macherry


May 15, 2006, 3:16 PM
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nice post curt


Dingus what you call an internet lynch mob is nothing more than an internet campfire discourse. The discussion is good for climbing.


what's that about opinions and assholes........everybody's got one


dingus


May 15, 2006, 3:24 PM
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In reply to:
nice post curt


Dingus what you call an internet lynch mob is nothing more than an internet campfire discourse. The discussion is good for climbing.


what's that about opinions and assholes........everybody's got one

OK, its a camp fire lynch mob too.

DMT


c-dub
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i agree that a reasonable discussion about this topic would be good for climbing. however, a fairly large number of posts have been nothing but overly negative bull shit. calling people stupid and calling dean potter all sorts of names, regardless of his actions, have no place in a forum like this. keep the discussion intelligent, make your point, but leave out the childish name calling.


maldaly


May 15, 2006, 3:49 PM
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Here's a cross-post from the Access Fund Condems....topic:

Here's the complete relevant text of the official park regs that were in place at the time of Dean's climb. Thanks for Ron Olsen at mountainproject.com for this info.
Mal
--------------------


"COMPENDIUM
ARCHES NATIONAL PARK
February 7, 2006
SECTION 1.5 CLOSURES AND PUBLIC USE LIMITS

Rock Climbing:

The following rock climbing routes may be closed for all or a portion of the year due to aesthetic, wildlife, or other resource related concerns:
1. Any arch identified on the current issue U.S.G.S. 7.5 minute topographical map.
2. Balanced Rock- Closed to climbing year-round.
3. Bubo- Closed from January 1st to June 30th.
4. Industrial Disease on the Devil Dog Spire is closed from January 1st to June 30th.

The use of chalk for climbing must be of a color that blends with the native rock.

Webbing left at rappel/belay points must be subdued colors that blend with the rock.

The use of motorized power drills is prohibited.

-------------------------------
And a link to the entire document.

http://www.nps.gov/applications/parks/arch/ppdocuments/ARCHC>>>>>

Note the date on the document: Feb 7 2006. The wording for the rock climbing restrictions was reviewed and approved within the last 4 months. They clearly provide for the ability for the park to close any arch for almost any reason but, in addition, it clearly leaves them open to climbing unless otherwise specified. Note that they specifically closed Balanced Rock but not Delicate Arch. That's a pretty damn big ommission to call a loophole.

Did they simply forget to close Delicate Arch? If Linda Joss, the park superintendant, is pissed it's probably because she signed off on this regulation and now has egg on her face. Oops!

Mal


jaboyd510


May 15, 2006, 6:47 PM
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Again, weak sauce. He didn't down climb. I mean, anybody can upclimb.


fitzontherocks


May 15, 2006, 6:59 PM
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They specifically closed "Balance Rock year round" and they specifically closed "Any arch identified on the current issue U.S.G.S. 7.5 minute topographical map."

I don't have a copy of that map, but I'm guessing Delicate Arch is on it. Seems pretty clear to me. Am I missing something, Mal?


jaybro


May 15, 2006, 7:05 PM
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Do you really think if they Could have busted him they would have hesitated?


maldaly


May 15, 2006, 7:17 PM
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fitzontherock,
Here's that language again. Read it carefully.

The following rock climbing routes may be closed for all or a portion of the year due to aesthetic, wildlife, or other resource related concerns:
1. Any arch identified on the current issue U.S.G.S. 7.5 minute topographical map.
2. Balanced Rock- Closed to climbing year-round.
3. Bubo- Closed from January 1st to June 30th.
4. Industrial Disease on the Devil Dog Spire is closed from January 1st to June 30th.

There is no language whatsoever saying that "Any arch identified on the current [USGS]" is closed to climbing. There is language that specifies Balanced Rock as being closed. So the phrase "The following rock climbing routes may be closed..." would include routes on DA. If I was wanting to climb Delicate and had read that regulation I would have approaced a ranger, as Dean did, and asked if Delicate Arch was currently open to climbing. An affirmative answer, like Dean got, would seem like permission to climb it to me.

I'll be the first to admit that it's a poorly written regulation with plenty of ambiguity and inaccurate language. I, like most of us here had assumed that the Arch was closed to climbing so hearing of Dean's climb came as a shock. I was offended by his action and embarrassed for the climbing community. Unlike other people on this forum and unlike the Access Fund, I decided to call Dean to find out his side of the story. Turns out he'd done his homework and was able to do a visionary and bold climb. You can argue with the morality of it, you can let the ethics offend you and you can whine about white chalk, but you can't call it squeezing through a loophole or illegal.

Will there be fallout? Sure. It's already fractured the climbing community and caused the park service to finally tighten up their language. I've even lost some customers who think I sonsor Dean. (I don't but I did give him a t-shirt once.) I'd also bet that the park service begins to enforce their white chalk rule (a good thing, I think).

Mal


fitzontherocks


May 15, 2006, 7:34 PM
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Thanks, Mal. I honestly overlooked the introductory line before the numbered points (the one that reads "The following rock climbing routes may be closed for all or a portion of the year due to aesthetic, wildlife, or other resource related concerns: ") And you're right; it is poorly written. But I'm curious... when you said that Potter asked a ranger first, that was the first time I had read/seen that. Seems like he would have volunteered that right off the bat when the story broke. Do you still feel confident about Dean's assertion that he talked to someone "in authority" before the event? (And Dean, if you're out there, chime in any time now.)


maldaly


May 15, 2006, 7:43 PM
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When Dean tells me I'm on belay I believe him. When he tells me he talked to a ranger (several actually) about it I believe him too.

Dean doesn't do internet and is not follwing this or any other thread.
Mal


brianinslc


May 15, 2006, 7:51 PM
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In reply to:
The following rock climbing routes may be closed for all or a portion of the year due to aesthetic, wildlife, or other resource related concerns:
1. Any arch identified on the current issue U.S.G.S. 7.5 minute topographical map.

There is no language whatsoever saying that "Any arch identified on the current [USGS]" is closed to climbing.

Yes there is. Here it is, written a bit differently:

From http://www.nps.gov/arch/climb.htm:

************
Regulations

Use of motorized drills is prohibited.

Climbing is prohibited on any arch identified on current USGS 7.5 minute topographical maps

************

I'm pretty sure the above is exactly what's on the handout at the park. Right on the brochure the park gives you if you ask for climbing information.

Here's the current quad with Delicate Arch clearly identified:

http://www.topozone.com/map.asp?lat=38.74278&lon=-109.49333

Here's what Gerry Roach says in the 1982 book "Arch Bagger - A Scramblers Guide to Arches National Park":

"Delicate Arch has enough power that it is sufficient to simply view. Don't get greedy."

I've climbed in Arches since 1985. I've known the "no climbing on named arches" rule since then, and, I don't live in Moab.

Given the flack over the slacklining on the Gossips...and his prior comments and actions towards NPS folks...its just really hard to swallow this as an honest mistake. And, an Arches employee giving him the verbal greenlight? Ugh. Question shouldn't have been asked in the first place.

Loophole schmoophole. Calculated more likely. Baited the "tools". NPS and his sponsers? I'm amazed the Patagonia folks haven't released a statement.

I'd be curious to know if he rehearsed the climb with a top rope prior to the solo ascent. Anyone?

-Brian in SLC


jabtocrag


May 15, 2006, 7:53 PM
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In reply to:
I've even lost some customers who think I sonsor Dean. (I don't but I did give him a t-shirt once.)

Mal

Mal...no matter your view on this, you won't lose me as a customer. I see you as an honest man who runs a great company.


killclimbz


May 15, 2006, 8:10 PM
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Well it looks like Dean's actions have had an effect on others wanting to pull stunts on Delicate Arch. These idiots were captured on film yesterday.


http://i2.photobucket.com/...e_arch_w2ridersc.jpg


:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


sidepull


May 15, 2006, 8:31 PM
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In reply to:
When Dean tells me I'm on belay I believe him. When he tells me he talked to a ranger (several actually) about it I believe him too.

Dean doesn't do internet and is not follwing this or any other thread.
Mal

now it's several rangers??? why did the story change?


Partner cracklover


May 15, 2006, 9:21 PM
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Hey, one of those unicyclists looks like an author who's name rhymes with schlong. Burn the witch!

G:lol:


asendr


May 15, 2006, 9:34 PM
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what is the symbolic gesture behind potters actions? don't claim to know the guy, and i recognize his ability to "push the envelope",but this strikes me as selling out. to who? the industry thats who.$$$$$$$$$$ yall. no different in my mind than a typical whore who shows off the goods on a street corner. got to flash that ass to make that cash. who cares what any body thinks, right? gotta make a livin'. even if it means you gotta ignore the rules a little.

i am probably way off. perhaps he did do it to connect w/the universe, and the camera.


krusher4


May 15, 2006, 10:04 PM
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There was video right? I can't wait to see it.


c-dub
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asendr: you call dean a sell out...just out of curiosity (not trying to start any shit) what do you do to make your lifestyle possible?


curt


May 16, 2006, 5:05 AM
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* He asked several rangers.....

* The published rules say that the ascent was OK.....

* This is a lynch mob.....

What utter bullshit. The fact is that Potter either knew that his climb of Delicate Arch would stir-up a hornet's nest--or he's the dumbest fucking climber on the planet.

Curt


dirtineye


May 16, 2006, 5:09 AM
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In reply to:
* He asked several rangers.....

* The published rules say that the ascent was OK.....

* This is a lynch mob.....

What utter s---. The fact is that Potter either knew that his climb of Delicate Arch would stir-up a hornet's nest--or he's the dumbest f---ing climber on the planet.

Curt


Hard to argue with your last sentence.


c-dub
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yeah...Dean Potter knew this would happen...or he didn't. either way, why do people always think that the climbing world is, or should be, immune to controversy and publicity? everyone is always so frightened that their favorite climbing route/crag/area is going to be shut down and then, "oh no! there's no where else to go!" this will never happen in your life time. there will always be good rock for you to climb...especially near moab. climbing will continue to change and grow, for better or worse, regardless of Dean Potter's actions. the negativity within the community is not going to help anyone's cause.


sidepull


May 16, 2006, 9:33 PM
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I just received this from Patagonia:

In reply to:
Hello,

Thank you for writing us with your concerns. Patagonia ambassador Dean Potter's May 7 free solo of Delicate Arch has generated significant controversy about the legality and appropriateness of the climb of what has been described as a national icon. We'll be interested to follow the controversy and to listen to views of those on both sides.

A few facts are in order. First, no crime has been committed. The National Park Service has conceded that its regulations were ambiguous and that they will not cite Dean for the ascent. They have said they will seek to clarify their regulations to prevent a second try. The Park and a number of opinion leaders have argued that Delicate Arch is an icon that should not be climbed.

It is important to note that Dean did no harm to the route or to the rock. He free-soloed the arch, placing no anchors and creating no impact beyond blowing dust off the holds. As he says, "No one reveres rocks more than me. I consider all rocks sacred, as do most climbers."

Dean, like all Patagonia ambassadors, undertakes his own climbs on his own terms. He told us about the climb afterward.

We have taken positions in the past on a number of issues of climbing ethics, including bolting. We take no position on this one. As Casey Sheahan, our CEO, notes, "From the early days in the Tetons to the rebelliousness of Yosemite's Camp 4, every generation of climbers has had its run-ins with government regulations that attempt to restrict climber's freedom of expression. At Patagonia we don't control the ways our sponsored athletes conduct themselves except to encourage respect for the environment and uncommon approaches to every challenge. Dean is at the pinnacle of free solo climbing, makes decisions for himself, and has our complete support."

Again, we thank you for your time and your opinion.

Patagonia

This probably makes Dingus happy, but for me it is really disappointing. I like Patagonia because it is a values-based company and I really feel that they've dropped the ball here. I'm far less likely to buy their gear and more than likely to repeat this story as an example of hypocrisy rather than tout their values. Here are my thoughts and then I'll stop ranting about this issue and just be sad.

1) No crime - this is barely true. Is that how people want to live - finding loopholes, exploiting semantics, using ethics in the slimmest way possible? How can Dean be an ambassador for the sport with that type of rationale?
2) No harm - a few years ago there was an interview with Yvon in Climbing and he cursed modern climbers for their use of chalk. Sure, this is really a detail, but white chalk on red stone is a glaring detail in this case.
3) Route - it isn't a route. It's an arch. Calling it a route only promotes further stupidity and selfishness.
4) Revering rocks - I don't buy this. To me his actions scream a lack of reverance. Reverance is generally quiet and personal, not filmed, rehearsed, and done in spectacle.
5) He told us afterward - again, the news reports state that Patagonia was there. Maybe this is misinformation from the media.

Please note that this is Patagonia exonerating Dean. Time will diminish the controversy and soon this will be just another dumb story. But I bet it foreshadows further slippage in Patagonia's core values and more stupidity by high profile climbers looking to make names for themselves.


roy_hinkley_jr


May 16, 2006, 10:06 PM
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Look at the bright side: Patagonia has admitted that it only gives lip-service to environmental and access issues to sell clothing. None of it really counts when a friend is involved with misdeeds. So you don't have to listen to the green-guilt-trip from the marketing department anymore! May as well save money with clothing that's just as good from TNF, Columbia, or Nike.

More pluses: Thanks to this incident, there will inevitably be even more restrictions in national parks, so Mr. No-one-reveres-rocks-more-than-me Potter has actually protected the rock by ensuring fewer climbers have access in the future. He also has a new career as a politician worthy of DeLay since he can twist words, misrepresent the truth, abuse natural resources, screw an entire community and have them asking for more.

All this goodness from one meaningless publicity stunt by a dude on an ego trip. Hooray for Dean Potter!


mped


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Dang dudes,

when I send Delicate Arch I am going to chalk up that bad boy likes no one elses business. Probably throw in a couple of pitons, hell I might put up a route of my own, bolted mind you. :lol:

If we can break the middle loose it would be a great boulder problem. Hey, I will start a business selling rock table tops made from the arches. There is a market!

The argument of everyone against the climb:

That pretty arch, no one should climb it because I want to look at it, it is pretty.

Maybe we should stop mining iron ore, we can make do without steel. We are only distorting the natural balance of the earth. Maybe we should stop killing forests. We don't need houses or shelter, foolish humans.


dingus


May 16, 2006, 11:14 PM
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In reply to:
I just received this from Patagonia:


This probably makes Dingus happy,

Yet another problem with internet lynch mobs... they never run out of people to blame.

DMT


sausalito


May 16, 2006, 11:21 PM
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I am a pretty cheap individual but the next thing I buy that patagonia sells I am going to buy something from them. All to often these days companies quickly abandon employees, or in this case a sponsored athlete, because they want to avoid all controversy....

Bravo Patagonia for not being one of the companies that dont allow their employees to be individuals.


md3


May 16, 2006, 11:34 PM
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Some of Patagonia’s customers are climbers, but climbers don’t seem to be an important target market for them. Perhaps some of their non-climber customers like the free-spirit / rebellious / adventurous climber image associated with Patagonia clothing. A boycott of their clothing by people to whom climbing access is important might alert their image oriented consumers to the reality that they are being sold a bit of false hype from a company that has little awareness of the access problems confronting the climbing community.

Climbers have no protected “freedom of expression” in the form of climbing. We have, through the good fortune of publicly owned lands, an interest in a set of shared, limited resources. While some particular uses have been sanctioned through regulation or statutes, such as mining, logging and in some places, even climbing, none of these uses is immune to eventual limitation or prohibition. I support restricting the access of ATVs and miners from more of our public lands because I think their negative impact outweighs their benefits. As climbers we have to do whatever we can to convince the rest of the people with whom we share these resources that our impact is not so negative or destructive as to warrant our exclusion.

Potter’s publicized actions are not those of a good “ambassador” for any organization that is concerned with access issues. Patagonia may be ecologically sensitive, but that letter from them reflects a real insensitivity to climbing access issues. I won’t buy any more Patagonia.


dingus


May 16, 2006, 11:39 PM
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one meaningless publicity stunt by a dude on an ego trip.

I agree, a meaningless publicity stunt.

DMT


sidepull


May 16, 2006, 11:53 PM
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In reply to:
In reply to:
I just received this from Patagonia:


This probably makes Dingus happy,

Yet another problem with internet lynch mobs... they never run out of people to blame.

DMT
http://www.foxhome.com/...tman_robin_wlogo.jpg
Holy misinterpretation Batman!


sausalito


May 16, 2006, 11:58 PM
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I really cant even form an opinion on what Dean did because I have yet to complete my personal understanding of the legal system. However I can say that getting all angry is not going to do much good. I am not Michael J Fox so I cant travel back in time. Whats done is done. What I was impressed with is that Patagonia is saying we support this guy even if he does something stupid. I like that. I think we should be able to make poor judgments sometimes and not be totally screwed because of it....

To further a point in the patagonia letter about climbing and the history of climbing and run ins with rules I will leave you with this. Tom Robbins wrote this in Still Life With Woodpecker:

"Humanity has advanced, when it has advanced, not because it has been sober, responsible and cautious, but because it has been playful, rebellious, and immature. "

Mabey at least a part of that is true for climbing as well.......


rhythm164


May 17, 2006, 12:00 AM
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Look at the bright side: Patagonia has admitted that it only gives lip-service to environmental and access issues to sell clothing. None of it really counts when a friend is involved with misdeeds. So you don't have to listen to the green-guilt-trip from the marketing department anymore! May as well save money with clothing that's just as good from TNF, Columbia, or Nike.

You are fucking deluded. Lip service? Maybe you should do some research before you post again. Go onto their website and read the field reports, Read about PCR(http://www.patagonia.com/enviro/pcr.shtml) and organic cotton(http://www.patagonia.com/enviro/organic_cotton.shtml), or check the page where it tells about the dispursal of grants fomr 1% For The Planet(http://www.patagonia.com/enviro/enviro_grants.shtml). OR (God forbid) read Chouinard's book. As a company, Patagonia should be a role model for all business in terms of the outreach, and steps taken to perserve the integrity of the environment. And as far as sving money by buying from other brands, no offense to anyone who likes North Face, I've bought a few items and they've fallen apart in a year. When I spend $180 on a fleece coat, I expect it to be able to take a little abuse. As far as Columbia and Nike are concerned, Columbia outerwear blows in terms of performance, and well, I don't own anything from Nike, so I won't say anything. I buy from Patagonia, proudly, I might add. I know that thier gear won't quit on me, that I'll have it for years, and that my money is going to an ecologically minded company. I support Patagonia, I support Potter, and I feel sorry for you, you bitter old fuck.

And for the record, we should ALL be listening to the "green guilt trip", unless you like desertification, acid rain, decreased crop yeilds, and GMO's.


ne_dan


May 17, 2006, 12:12 AM
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Nobody cares if your going to boycott Patagonia,
Patagonia doesn't care if you boycott Patagonia,
Dean Potter doesn't read this shit, so who cares
I can't believe I'm reading this let alone replying to this,
So lets keep on beating the dead horse because if we say the same shit over and over it must make it true.
The fact is the 15 minutes of fame for this are over,
nobody cares not even you.


rock_ranger


May 17, 2006, 12:40 AM
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In reply to:
Nobody cares if your going to boycott Patagonia,
Patagonia doesn't care if you boycott Patagonia,
Dean Potter doesn't read this s---, so who cares
I can't believe I'm reading this let alone replying to this,
So lets keep on beating the dead horse because if we say the same s--- over and over it must make it true.
The fact is the 15 minutes of fame for this are over,
nobody cares not even you.

Had to give this a trophy. Well put :)

___________________________________
http://www.teesfortards.com/images/voicesbigalt.jpg


jabtocrag


May 17, 2006, 1:44 AM
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In reply to:
The argument of everyone against the climb:

That pretty arch, no one should climb it because I want to look at it, it is pretty.

Maybe we should stop mining iron ore, we can make do without steel. We are only distorting the natural balance of the earth. Maybe we should stop killing forests. We don't need houses or shelter, foolish humans.

Your analogy is weak.


jabtocrag


May 17, 2006, 1:54 AM
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As a company, Patagonia should be a role model for all business in terms of the outreach, and steps taken to perserve the integrity of the environment.

Now here's something we can agree on. Patagonia seems to be one of the few major companies that actually gives a damn about our environment. No one can take that away from them.


boombewm


May 17, 2006, 2:16 AM
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When I spend $180 on a fleece coat

the trick is NOT to spend $180 on a fleece coat

weeeeee


curt


May 17, 2006, 2:21 AM
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In reply to:
I just received this from Patagonia:

In reply to:
Hello,

Thank you for writing us with your concerns. Patagonia ambassador Dean Potter's May 7 free solo of Delicate Arch has generated significant controversy about the legality and appropriateness of the climb of what has been described as a national icon. We'll be interested to follow the controversy and to listen to views of those on both sides.

A few facts are in order. First, no crime has been committed. The National Park Service has conceded that its regulations were ambiguous and that they will not cite Dean for the ascent. They have said they will seek to clarify their regulations to prevent a second try. The Park and a number of opinion leaders have argued that Delicate Arch is an icon that should not be climbed.

It is important to note that Dean did no harm to the route or to the rock. He free-soloed the arch, placing no anchors and creating no impact beyond blowing dust off the holds. As he says, "No one reveres rocks more than me. I consider all rocks sacred, as do most climbers."

Dean, like all Patagonia ambassadors, undertakes his own climbs on his own terms. He told us about the climb afterward.

We have taken positions in the past on a number of issues of climbing ethics, including bolting. We take no position on this one. As Casey Sheahan, our CEO, notes, "From the early days in the Tetons to the rebelliousness of Yosemite's Camp 4, every generation of climbers has had its run-ins with government regulations that attempt to restrict climber's freedom of expression. At Patagonia we don't control the ways our sponsored athletes conduct themselves except to encourage respect for the environment and uncommon approaches to every challenge. Dean is at the pinnacle of free solo climbing, makes decisions for himself, and has our complete support."

Again, we thank you for your time and your opinion.

Patagonia

This probably makes Dingus happy, but for me it is really disappointing. I like Patagonia because it is a values-based company and I really feel that they've dropped the ball here. I'm far less likely to buy their gear and more than likely to repeat this story as an example of hypocrisy rather than tout their values. Here are my thoughts and then I'll stop ranting about this issue and just be sad.

1) No crime - this is barely true. Is that how people want to live - finding loopholes, exploiting semantics, using ethics in the slimmest way possible? How can Dean be an ambassador for the sport with that type of rationale?

Well, that depends on what the meaning of the word "is" is.

Curt


lonnie_utah


May 17, 2006, 12:48 PM
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In reply to:
I just received this from Patagonia:

In reply to:
Hello,

Thank you for writing us with your concerns. Patagonia ambassador Dean Potter's May 7 free solo of Delicate Arch has generated significant controversy about the legality and appropriateness of the climb of what has been described as a national icon. We'll be interested to follow the controversy and to listen to views of those on both sides.

A few facts are in order. First, no crime has been committed. The National Park Service has conceded that its regulations were ambiguous and that they will not cite Dean for the ascent. They have said they will seek to clarify their regulations to prevent a second try. The Park and a number of opinion leaders have argued that Delicate Arch is an icon that should not be climbed.

It is important to note that Dean did no harm to the route or to the rock. He free-soloed the arch, placing no anchors and creating no impact beyond blowing dust off the holds. As he says, "No one reveres rocks more than me. I consider all rocks sacred, as do most climbers."

Dean, like all Patagonia ambassadors, undertakes his own climbs on his own terms. He told us about the climb afterward.

We have taken positions in the past on a number of issues of climbing ethics, including bolting. We take no position on this one. As Casey Sheahan, our CEO, notes, "From the early days in the Tetons to the rebelliousness of Yosemite's Camp 4, every generation of climbers has had its run-ins with government regulations that attempt to restrict climber's freedom of expression. At Patagonia we don't control the ways our sponsored athletes conduct themselves except to encourage respect for the environment and uncommon approaches to every challenge. Dean is at the pinnacle of free solo climbing, makes decisions for himself, and has our complete support."

Again, we thank you for your time and your opinion.

Patagonia

For what it's worth, I got exactly the same e-mail....

L


rhythm164


May 17, 2006, 1:23 PM
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In reply to:
In reply to:
When I spend $180 on a fleece coat

the trick is NOT to spend $180 on a fleece coat

weeeeee

I have absolutly no problem dropping cash for good gear that will last me 20 years. I'd rather spend $200 once than $80 four times.


colkurtz


May 17, 2006, 1:58 PM
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poor patagonia. it cant win.

if any of the companies who have tried to buy patagonia succeeded, they would be better run, have better products and i would be a customer even if the products weren't free to me. they also would have buckled to public opinion and rc losers would be happy.

on the other hand the cats on this board would have cried foul. boo hoo don't sell to the big corporations. whinge whinge .

independent companies have independent opinions and that's why i love them. without independent thinkers we would be in the bronze age still. good for patagonia for not buckling under pressure.

but it seems to me that the critics here, and the people who love their small independent manufacturers, don't really support independence or taking a stand. they just support the 'little guy' and want them to stay little because they too are little--little minded people and love company


crankmas


May 17, 2006, 2:47 PM
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why are so many NPS employees bitter people?


dontmaytagme


May 17, 2006, 3:03 PM
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Well. F me. I am late to the discussion.

--

This article, attitude, is the normal BS that climbers impose on themselves. Hell.. Potter could have at least used the military expression of "If I wanted to hear 'no', I would have asked."

I've been to Arches many times too.. and I very well knew that the named arches were off limits. But, then again.. perhaps the signage was inadequate.. who knows. And as usual, the 11th hour climbers will squabble amongst themselves and revel in some madness to curse the Powers that Be for shutting it down.

We'll see.


athena


May 17, 2006, 3:40 PM
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poor patagonia. it cant win.

if any of the companies who have tried to buy patagonia succeeded, they would be better run, have better products and i would be a customer even if the products weren't free to me. they also would have buckled to public opinion and rc losers would be happy.

on the other hand the cats on this board would have cried foul. boo hoo don't sell to the big corporations. whinge whinge .

independent companies have independent opinions and that's why i love them. without independent thinkers we would be in the bronze age still. good for patagonia for not buckling under pressure.

but it seems to me that the critics here, and the people who love their small independent manufacturers, don't really support independence or taking a stand. they just support the 'little guy' and want them to stay little because they too are little--little minded people and love company

you idiot - people aren't mad because they're exercising their independence, people are upset because that lettered is embedded with so many half truths that it screams "we don't believe what we claim to believe!" If I see a pic of Delicate Arch with or without Potter in a Patagonia catalog in the near future I will puke!


dirtineye


May 17, 2006, 3:47 PM
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Well call em and give em an earfull, good or bad



PHONE

1-800-638-6464

Patagonia Customer Service Reps are available for inquiries weekdays from 6am to 6pm, and weekends from 8am to 4pm (PST). Phone orders are accepted 24 hours a day, 7 days a week.


akornylak


May 17, 2006, 4:03 PM
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It's my birthday so what the hell.

There are a lot of things well within the law that Patagonia champions vociferously against, such as the use of pesticides in cotton farming, unsustainable water use, and so on. I don't think the law has anything to do with it.

Its just climbing. Bad taste, maybe, but its just climbing.


yanqui


May 17, 2006, 4:04 PM
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In reply to:
why are so many NPS employees bitter people?
A surprising number of rock climbers seem to fall into this category as well.


nuts_r_us


May 17, 2006, 4:47 PM
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why are so many NPS employees bitter people?

You would be too if you had to deal with tourons and Germans all day long.


md3


May 17, 2006, 5:25 PM
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ne_dan wrote:
In reply to:
nobody cares not even you.

Actually I do care. I care about access because I like to go climbing a lot, and as I am no one’s “ambassador”, I can’t just move on to the next area when local options become more restricted or close altogether.

Sensitivity to access issues and environmental responsibility are very different things. While environmental impact may affect the access debate, access is often more immediately determined by opinions and prejudices that have little direct relationship to quantifiable negative environmental impact. Environmentally responsible organizations may pursue objectives that directly impinge on climbing access. Of course, attempts to secure access without regard for potential negative environmental impacts are unattractive and anathema to the environmentally appreciative and respectful aspect of climbing I embrace. Patagonia’s environmental efforts are great, but the insensitivity to climbing access issues evinced in that statement is especially repugnant given their use of a climbing image and a climbing “ambassador” to sell their products.


crankmas


May 17, 2006, 7:26 PM
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Thanks for the insights on my perceptions of NPS folks come to think of it there are some bitter climbers, maybe its just a human thing- sad- everybody should lighten up.


musicman


May 19, 2006, 11:35 PM
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i know this dead horse has been beaten...and will be some more...but this is new
dean potter's plea for help.
http://www.freakclimbing.com/...ile=article&sid=1165


jabtocrag


May 20, 2006, 3:44 AM
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In reply to:
i know this dead horse has been beaten...and will be some more...but this is new
dean potter's plea for help.
http://www.freakclimbing.com/...ile=article&sid=1165

Comes across as a desperate plea.


c-dub
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anyone else question the validity of this "plea"? i saw it on another website. a letter next to a picture of dean and we're supposed to assume that it is actually from him. also, who is that quote on the bottom from? no citation. interesting...


jstan


May 21, 2006, 9:44 PM
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Climbing has always had difficulties much like those of today. It argues well for our ability to resolve these problems if we are careful to respect the needs and rights of others fully as much as we respect our own. And success is always made more likely if we know who our friends are. If I were still climbing I think I would first of all read Desert Solitaire yet another time. Indeed, were I in the area I would go to the places described by Mr. Abbey and there read the relevant passages. His message is, if anything, even more powerful today than it was forty years ago.

I would urge those concerned with recent events also to read Abbey again, to carefully think through all the things at stake, and then to express yourself in personal letters to the appropriate principals. If you will permit me, I will here draw from my own past experience.

In the mid 1970’s climbers really had no lobbying effort going so I got involved trying to get people from as far away as California to write West Virginia’s Monongahela National Forest arguing against the Forest Service’s supporting the destruction of Mouth of Seneca with an interstate highway. At a meeting with the superintendent he remarked to me on the side that, “you are certainly very good at getting letters written.” The wry smile on his face and the fact he said anything at all immediately told me what his personal opinion was on the matter. He was expressing his gratitude to climbers for giving him some of the ammunition he needed to deal with the situation. From what I read on this thread I would conclude management of Arches National Park is very professional and careful. We need to be the same.

About that same time chromoly was literally destroying the rock right in front of our eyes. Before very long something quite magical happened. In all the climbing stores chromoly was moved to a back shelf. There was never a word said or an announcement made. Surely, no one’s profits became higher because of this change. Could they have done more? Possibly. We did not need perfection, however. In the areas where I was climbing we did need help very badly. And we got it.

Lester Germer taught me something of immense value, which I want to share. Back in the dark days of the late 60’s Lester said to me, “Somebody has GOT to do something!” I could not believe what I had just heard. I don’t know how many of you are familiar with Lester. He volunteered to fight in WWI and flew as an ace fighter pilot in that god awful war. He survived, came home, got his degree in physics, and went to work for Bell Labs. While there he did the work that was the basis of a Nobel prize, later cited by Albert Einstein as the experiment that most informed his own view of the Quantum Theory(Davisson-Germer experiment). While in his 60’s Lester was marooned on the Otter Body snow field and spent the night in freezing waterfall , after a person higher up had fallen and planted their crampons in his back. A year or so later Lester was trekking in Nepal. The source of my astonishment was that someone so powerful and who had apparently never failed at anything – felt helpless.

What I took away was that anyone who is breathing, can feel helpless. It is a feeling without meaning. One’s only rational response is to give it your best, knowing that if failure does come your way it will only make you stronger.


brianinslc


May 22, 2006, 2:18 PM
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Nicely done.

A "pox" in Arches? Or in the community...

Thanks,

-Brian in SLC


weschrist


May 22, 2006, 2:26 PM
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In reply to:
if any of the companies who have tried to buy patagonia succeeded, they would be better run, have better products and i would be a customer even if the products weren't free to me.

It worked for The North Face... oh, wait, no it didn't.

In reply to:
the people who love their small independent manufacturers, don't really support independence or taking a stand. they just support the 'little guy' and want them to stay little because they too are little--little minded people and love company

They all bitch about the corporations and claim to support the little guy, but when it comes down to it they will still go to WalMart to save $1 on peanut butter. Or go to Starfucks because they are too lazy to cross the street or walk the extra block to a real coffee shop.


sidepull


May 22, 2006, 5:50 PM
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still no mention of this Climbing or Rock and Ice. So strange.


gravitylover


Jun 1, 2006, 4:10 AM
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Who wouldn't like to see some video of this awesome rock climbed. Free solo is the way to go, too. I think it's awesome.

If anyone is concerned about access, the issue is with the park rangers (those that are anti-climber) not with other climbers. Dean Potter certainly doesn't deserve to lose any sponsors over this.


greenmachineman7


Jun 1, 2006, 4:52 AM
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In reply to:
Dean Potter certainly doesn't deserve to lose any sponsors over this.

I'm not sure I agree with that statement. If I were Patagonia, I'd certainly publicity chastize DP for it...

I mean really, I think that as climbers, we're all pretty intrigued and psyched that someone did it, but to blatantly do so against park regulations gives us ALL a bad name and threatens our access issues in all climbing areas.


gravitylover


Jun 3, 2006, 5:41 AM
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Dang dudes,

when I send Delicate Arch I am going to chalk up that bad boy likes no one elses business. Probably throw in a couple of pitons, hell I might put up a route of my own, bolted mind you. :lol:

If we can break the middle loose it would be a great boulder problem. Hey, I will start a business selling rock table tops made from the arches. There is a market!

The argument of everyone against the climb:

That pretty arch, no one should climb it because I want to look at it, it is pretty.

Maybe we should stop mining iron ore, we can make do without steel. We are only distorting the natural balance of the earth. Maybe we should stop killing forests. We don't need houses or shelter, foolish humans.

I think mped has a point (made with sarcasm?). It's absurd that there should be no climbing on something just because it's awesome to look at.

However, I think we can find alternative resources and keep trees standing. And I'll still climb a tree. I don't think Dean want's to destroy anything, either.


sidepull


Apr 17, 2007, 4:06 AM
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[quote "sidepull"]still no mention of this Climbing or Rock and Ice. So strange.[/quote]

[u]http://www.climbing.com/news/hotflashes/arches07/[/u]

Finally, almost a year later they (Climbing) sort of, maybe, kind of, almost admit that it's a potential possibility that Dean could have or even might have climbed an arch and maybe, in a very vague, obtuse and esoteric probabilistic sense, this caused something to happen. (Wait, cause is way too strong of word). Of course it's a really a good thing children, don't be mad at Dean, he did us all a big favor. That is, if he did anything, which, we're not really sure about.

I swear, the same idiots managing climbing must be PR consultants for the Attorney General.


boymeetsrock


Mar 23, 2009, 8:42 PM
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Hard to believe this was two years ago already.

Any body seen or heard of Potter since? Seems like he dropped of the face of delicate arch...


sidepull


Mar 23, 2009, 8:52 PM
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there was an awesome "jeep world of adventure" segment on Potter free soloing the North Face of the Eiger (I think?) with a base-jumping parachute on his back just-in-case. It was really well filmed and beautiful. I don't care for Dean so much though.

I think he was cut by Patagonia.


Partner cracklover


Mar 23, 2009, 9:21 PM
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boymeetsrock wrote:
Hard to believe this was two years ago already.

Any body seen or heard of Potter since? Seems like he dropped of the face of delicate arch...

You're resurrecting a two year old thread in order to rag on DP?

Lame.

GO


quiteatingmysteak


Mar 23, 2009, 9:26 PM
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He's still out there, for sure. I think he spent some time in Patagonia and, of course, there was the whole freebase thing....


zeke_sf


Mar 23, 2009, 9:38 PM
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cracklover wrote:
boymeetsrock wrote:
Hard to believe this was two years ago already.

Any body seen or heard of Potter since? Seems like he dropped of the face of delicate arch...

You're resurrecting a two year old thread in order to rag on DP?

Lame.

GO

Indeed.


boymeetsrock


Mar 23, 2009, 11:53 PM
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zeke_sf wrote:
cracklover wrote:
boymeetsrock wrote:
Hard to believe this was two years ago already.

Any body seen or heard of Potter since? Seems like he dropped of the face of delicate arch...

You're resurrecting a two year old thread in order to rag on DP?

Lame.

GO

Indeed.


While perhaps a side effect of the thread resurrection, it is not my intent to rag on DP. I just haven't heard anything about him, when in fact he was a prominent figure before the indecent. And I was bored at work.


hafilax


Mar 24, 2009, 12:18 AM
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He's still a prominent figure. You mustn't be looking in the right places.


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