Well thats clear as mud! anyone willing to provide a bit more detail? Thanks!

What *I* do, is

1) set-up my anchor.
2) pick up my rope so that I can clip in for the repell.
3) clip myself directly into my anchor with a runner or daisy chain.
4) downclimb without holding the rope
5) weight my repell and then unclip my safety.
6) repell!

What *I* do, is

1) set-up my anchor.
2) pick up my rope so that I can clip in for the repell.
3) clip myself directly into my anchor with a runner or daisy chain.
4) downclimb without holding the rope
5) weight my repell and then unclip my safety.
6) repell!

IMO you're overestimating the forces involved with a static setup falling 2 feet, but to each their own.

I can't recall anyone ever getting injured by setting up with a daisy chain.

IMO you're overestimating the forces involved with a static setup falling 2 feet, but to each their own.

I can't recall anyone ever getting injured by setting up with a daisy chain.

If you're really worried about downclimbing, do this:
1)set up your tr anchor
2)rapell off a tree (or rock/second anchor back from the cliff face) to your TR anchor.
3)tie into the anchor
4)have your partner rap all the way down, if possible
5)pull the rope and thread it through your TR anchor. be sure to tie the rope to yourself somehow before pulling it so that you don't drop it entirely during the transition.
6)rap
7)pat yourself on the back. you're now practically a multipitch sport rapeller. awesome.

IMO you're overestimating the forces involved with a static setup falling 2 feet, but to each their own.

I can't recall anyone ever getting injured by setting up with a daisy chain.

I once fell on my daisy while moving onto a new aid placement. Trust me, it freakin' hurt. I wasn't injured, necessarily, but I chipped a tooth and it really shook me up.

I'd recommend that you try to avoid falling on a static line from any distance.

IMO you're overestimating the forces involved with a static setup falling 2 feet, but to each their own.

I can't recall anyone ever getting injured by setting up with a daisy chain.

"Do not use static ropes for climbing. Static ropes stretch very little at all (0.5 to 1.5 percent or less). Forces generated in a climbing system can quickly exceed factor 2 if a static rope is used, causing grave (deadly) injuries to the climber and generating forces in the system which exceed the strength of the gear used. (a fall of as little as 4 feet on a static rope can create enough shock load to cause injury, death, or failure of climbing gear). " from flatliners.
of course - static rope has a little give, but your sling does not - so a shorter fall will do equal damage.

I don't personally do it myself as I don't even own a static rope nor would I even chance it if I did, but I have been told that it is possible to TR on a static rope.

*shrug* doesn't seam worth it to me but I dunno.

And to the other poster, do you still use a daisy chain for a backup or do you use a different system now?

i pull a bunch of rope through my rappel device, then take a jump. its kinda like bungee jumping. sometimes my huge balls swing into the rock though, kinda hurts a bit.

good thing about this technique is that you end up about half way down the cliff, so less time actually rappelling.

(side note: dont actually do this)

Interesting food for thought, however I think there is a LITTLE stretch in the system.

Afterall, aren't you clipped in when you are doing a setup? What's the point in clipping in if there is no added safety?

hope you have a really strong back to support that kind of jerking

IMO you're overestimating the forces involved with a static setup falling 2 feet, but to each their own.

I can't recall anyone ever getting injured by setting up with a daisy chain.

IMO?.... In My OPINION?!!!


In My EXPERIENCE, even a two foot daisy fall (<FF1) onto the anchor is something I'd rather not ever repeat. PERIOD. Let alone a 2' FF2.
Just because you've never heard of it, or can't recall that it happens, doesn't mean the possibility and probability of it happening does not exist.

Why would you risk something when you've got no idea what the odds of failure are? Casinos in Nevada rely and thrive on people like you. If you don't know the odds, don't play the game. Especially when the cost could be the rest of your life.

Prussik into one of the arms of the anchor.

You're putting a prussic on something other than a rope? How thoroughly have you tested this rig? Will a prussic on a cordellete or a spectra sling reliably hold? I wouldn't expect it to. It is certainly not a standard use of a prussic.

I agree that using a daisy to lower yourself over the edge is potentially dangerous. Daisies are designed to hold body weight only, and can fail in a static fall. A Metolius PAS might be handy to have if you find yourself doing this often.

Jay

Im not sure i understand your question. We're talking Tr anchors here, which in my head, in a simple sense means two big trees. An "arm" of this lanchor would be a length of static, appx 10-11 mm. I wouldn't reccomend prussicing onto a cordalette or sling....

That said, standard 6-7 mm prussiks work fine, as does a single length webbing runner tied as a kleimheirt. i did find that spectra runners slipped a lot mroe before catching, making things a bit jerky.

Yeah most of the toproping I do is in an institutional setting, where we get to use big freaking technical static rope. That said, when TR on my own time in the "two big trees" situation - which there are a lot of around here- if find that static works real nice. Would you use webbing? Maybe I would, if i weren't so used to static.

Static rope is great for TR anchors, but unless you do a lot of TRing you probably don't own static rope. The institutional setting you refer to is definitely a specialized situation. Most climbers don't have dedicated TR gear of any kind. When they set up a top rope anchor, they use whatever gear they have from their lead rack. Usually that means that cordelletes and long slings make up the bulk of the anchor, which probably means that a friction knot on an arm of the anchor isn't an option in most cases.

Jay

to explain better... the only way to the bottom of the cliff is from the top. To rappell down. I only have one rope, so i have to use my toprope anchor to reach the bottom, and the anchor point is 1 foot below the lip on the top of the cliff. Seems as though i would have nothing supporting me until i was below the power point.

I think our geography is showing. Around here, most people have dedicated TR setups and not racks. Mostly because everything worth climbing here is easily tr'd...that's a gross generalization, but what I see around here is people getting first set up with TRing gear such as webbing and static, then, if so inclined, move into buying a rack.

Once my statics bit the dust, will I get a new one? Probably not. But it gets a hell of a lot of use now on routes that are short, awesome, but sketchy leads.

I would much rather fall on a sling or daisy chain than...[X]

A little discomfort is better than having a prussik cut through webbing which it WILL do without that much force.

Puting rope material directly on webbing is a short path to death.

Wasn't there an incident two or three months ago where a climber fell above an anchor he was attached to with a spectra sling and pulled the anchor, resulting in his death? IIRC, it was either on Mont Blanc or the Grand Jorasses. From what I read, he had climbed about two feet above his anchor on a static sling. He slipped, fell four feet onto the anchor, which then ripped from the impact force, sending him to his death below?

Regardless, when anchoring directly to anchors with no dynamic rope in the system, if I'm in a situation where there is any chance of falling on the anchor, I would use a Purcell tied in 7 or 8 mm perlon. The perlon stretches a bit to absorb force, and if you really generate a huge amount of force, the prussic will slip to help dissipate it.