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sprog
Apr 7, 2008, 9:10 PM
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I've had this dilemma lately - I've gotten my start climbing sport but what I really want to be doing is alpine mountaineering, and it seems like getting into it is kind of difficult. Apparently allot of people take a class from a guide company or something - but a few thousand for a week long class is allot of money to me and it seems like one would learn the basics in one of these courses, and then what? Try not to kill yourself while gaining experience? My question is, how did you guys get started in this sport? Experienced climbing partner? Above mentioned guide company sort of situation?
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petsfed
Apr 7, 2008, 9:17 PM
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Three things:
1) experienced partner
2) strong desire to go do it
3) dumb luck that kept you alive
That's how most hard core alpinists get to where they are now.
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durangoclimber
Apr 7, 2008, 9:31 PM
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petsfed wrote: Three things: 1) experienced partner 2) strong desire to go do it 3) dumb luck that kept you alive That's how most hard core alpinists get to where they are now.
AGREED !!!
Always offer to buy the beer, be courteous and attentive. Don't be a dumb ass !!! Always carry more than your fare share and don't give up with your quest.
Good Luck.
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dingus
Apr 7, 2008, 9:35 PM
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Wiseass man says one-size-fits-all answer will leave you with baggy pants and empty wallet.
Where you live is probably THE most important consideration for a would-be alpinist. The farther you live from the mountains the more it will cost you - that is the economic truth of the situation.
If you don't live near your heart's desire then moving to be in or close to the mountains will be your best initial investment.
I believe a strong foundation in rock climbing, from bouldering skills to sport to trad, is the best avenue for those who don't live close enough to for-real mountains to learn alpinism organically. With gyms and what have you a majority of the technical Jedi-rope-tricks can be larnt away from the big hills.
An awful lot of mountaineering and its sterner cousin alpinism is about walking up hill with loads of gear on yer back.... so big thighs and a willingness to suffer is key. How do you like pain? If your ideal answer is 'I hate pain?' Seek no more....
With rope skills and strong thighs you also need the following:
Weather clothing
Snow camping gear
Snow climbing equipment
Ice gear
Mountain weather savy
Avalanche awareness (and fear, stress the FEAR)
Orientation skills
Knowledge foundation
You don't need all this shit to hike a peak though, fer christsakes. Just pick a big hill and hike up it, for starters.
Then start adding on the baggage - skills, book knowledge, fitness, gear, documentation, goals, partners, etc.
You don't have to work on it all at once or spend you wad all in one go either.
Having your end goal in mind is important, and if you have the money and temperment, there is no harm in taking an intense alpinism class, probably shoots nitro into your mountain climbing career that way.
But if you're on a shoe string or enjoy working though goals and problems on your own..... there's no reason you can't aspire in that direction as well.
While I'm no alpinist I have a lot of technical summits 'neath my boots; lots of rock, some snow and some ice. Did it mostly on my own terms and didn't get seriously started on it till I left Tennessee at age 26 and moved to Cali to live in a place less than 2 hours from the nearest 10k peaks. Then BOOM.... !
But I'd already laid a firm ground work of trad rock climbing skills, and had begin to accumulate kit as well.
If skiing is also in your bag (and imo, to be a well rounded mountaineer it SHOULD BE) there are many, many parallels in skills and gear.
Round about answer to say again - it Depends (Tm)
DMT
(This post was edited by dingus on Apr 7, 2008, 9:38 PM)
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skiclimb
Apr 7, 2008, 9:41 PM
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Haha funny how the above poster an I gave pretty similar advice. I was composing my post as he was apparently and it came in ahead of me. Good advice above and a bit simplified below. Gluck
First you need easy acsess to mountains.
Start out paranoid and expect the worst...be overly cautious until you KNOW what you can do safely.
Go hike the easy ones get good at outdoor travel and overnighting.
Meet people who mountaineer and make new friends.
TAKE A GOOD AVALANCHE COURSE
Take a good first aid course. Wildeness EMT or maybe WEC (ski patrol class)
Learn to travel efficiently with crampons and become expert at self-arrest.
Read everything you can get your hands on.
become proficient at the various aspects of technical climbing. Trad, Rock and Ice.
become expert at self rescue (crevasse and high angle)
mix your technical skills with a reasonable progression of routes as you develope experience and judgement.
Have a blast and make sure you are enjoying what you do. All of the above should be really fun and should just come naturally as you go.
BTW i hate LUCK. Luck is when a route ends up being easier/better than I expected. Only luck I habve had and i will admit that there is some to staying alive anywhere and true in climbing is this. I have not made any really stupid mistakes WHEN IT MATTERRED :). Hope that keeps up.
(This post was edited by skiclimb on Apr 7, 2008, 9:58 PM)
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dingus
Apr 7, 2008, 9:49 PM
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Haha I noticed that too.
'What he said!"
Cheers
DMT
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majid_sabet
Apr 7, 2008, 9:53 PM
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Dingus
Will you take me on your next alpine climbing trip ?
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mattb1921
Apr 7, 2008, 10:19 PM
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Start slow and remember that it takes years to become experienced. Paying thousands for a course will get you a great base but there is nothing like learning thru doing. I never took a course, I just learned from doing and buying beer for those more experienced to show me a thing or two.
Start with easy routes that are not that commiting and work your way up. Try and find a like minded partner who is willing to take it slow as well. Read books and seek advice from locals who are more experiecned.
Just remember that it takes time to get on long and hard routes and there is nothing wrong with reading about them until you are ready to take the sharp end and give them a go yourself.
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builttospill
Apr 7, 2008, 10:53 PM
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Nothing is more important than time spent in the mountains. Thus, living close is key (or having lots of money to travel every weekend to Colorado, CA, Washington, Wyoming, etc).
Learn to climb on gear, first and foremost. That is the single biggest obstacle to most people I see trying to get into alpine climbing. They either can't place gear, or they can't climb hard above gear (as opposed to sport climbing), so their options in the mountains are forever limited.
Learn how to suffer. Some may say this tongue in cheek, but it's actually true and not just a pithy phrase. It'll help you appreciate the learning process a lot more and make you a much better climber/mountaineer/alpinist in the long run. Don't get hung up on cushy conveniences on your trips into the mountains. Learn to move fast. A lot of that has to do with the big thighs that dingus mentioned. In addition to that, being able to climb hard makes that 5.8 pitch in the mountains feel like a walk in the park rather than desperate. Being proficient with protection makes building anchors quick. And being fit makes the approach take less time. And that is a huge timesaver and a huge reason why I see people fail in the mountains despite being far better at actual movement over rock than me.
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adeptus
Apr 8, 2008, 10:29 AM
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rangerrob
Apr 8, 2008, 1:49 PM
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Stop clipping bolts. Save your money during the week, plan a trip, and go do it. Go there, try it, have the shit scared out of you, come home vowing never to do it again, 3 months later start planning the next one...slightly harder.
RR
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bob_54b
Apr 8, 2008, 3:11 PM
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yes, just have to go out and do it, and have a lot of dumb luck.
taking some class isn't going to teach you a damned thing. the only way you learn is by getting out there and making mistakes and learning how to get your butt out of it alive.
that's how we did it, we didn't have trust funds so we had to learn on our own. we worked on the basic skills on road assessible rocks and then took it out to the alpine stuff. we errored on the side of caution most of the time...if I'd done half the routes I've backed off of i'd be considered a great climber I guess.
alpine isn't just technical skill, it's also taking into account the weather, your physical/mental condition, the degree of committment you want to make. start on the easier climbs and get a feel for it, start to build a 6th sense about things...how does it feel. That 6th sense is going to be what keeps you alive more than anything and it takes time to develop...gotta pay your dues.
so start out slow, easier things, get a feel for it, be humble enough to go down if it feels bad or weird, there will be a time when you make the decision that a climb is indeed worth a very steep risk, but you want to work up to that so that you have the experience to make the judgements that cut the odds on your side.
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shimanilami
Apr 8, 2008, 9:22 PM
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majid_sabet wrote: Dingus Will you take me on your next alpine climbing trip ?
That's the funniest thing I've read in a long time.
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irregularpanda
Apr 8, 2008, 9:24 PM
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dingus wrote: Wiseass man says one-size-fits-all answer will leave you with baggy pants and empty wallet. Where you live is probably THE most important consideration for a would-be alpinist. The farther you live from the mountains the more it will cost you - that is the economic truth of the situation. If you don't live near your heart's desire then moving to be in or close to the mountains will be your best initial investment. I believe a strong foundation in rock climbing, from bouldering skills to sport to trad, is the best avenue for those who don't live close enough to for-real mountains to learn alpinism organically. With gyms and what have you a majority of the technical Jedi-rope-tricks can be larnt away from the big hills. An awful lot of mountaineering and its sterner cousin alpinism is about walking up hill with loads of gear on yer back.... so big thighs and a willingness to suffer is key. How do you like pain? If your ideal answer is 'I hate pain?' Seek no more.... With rope skills and strong thighs you also need the following: Weather clothing Snow camping gear Snow climbing equipment Ice gear Mountain weather savy Avalanche awareness (and fear, stress the FEAR) Orientation skills Knowledge foundation You don't need all this shit to hike a peak though, fer christsakes. Just pick a big hill and hike up it, for starters.
Agreed. Also, take that money that you could spend on the training to get the gear, the bible, and some sunscreen. Where do you live? If its in the northwest the NWAC website is THE resource for avalanche conditions. Also, if you go to college, a good way to get free training and experience is by getting a job with the Outdoor Program at your college. Sometimes it's called wilderness education, sometimes its called the recreation center..... either way trainings are free, you can coerce your boss into taking you up big things every couple weeks, and you could eventually get a pro-deal for cheaper gear....
THe first rule of pro-deal is don't talk about pro deal.
the second rule of pro-deal is don't talk about pro deal.
edited because the bible is called "the freedom of the hills" newest edition is best.
(This post was edited by irregularpanda on Apr 8, 2008, 9:24 PM)
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shimanilami
Apr 8, 2008, 9:39 PM
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I got me a copy of Freedom of the Hills and just went for it. I didn't die.
Of course, I'm invincible. (Not too many people can say that.)
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jjanowia
Apr 8, 2008, 10:09 PM
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Everyone else's suggestions on here are good. practice, read, listen, study, practice. Basically, how one "gets good" at anything.
Ask yourself why you want this. Forget the cock-tugging about how cool it is to be hard and how much you want to be like those guys / gals in 'Alpinist'. Do you really like suffering? Have you totally absorbed yourself into other athletic pursuits in your life prior to coming to climbing? Do you think that you're smart, have strong focus, and are mentally tough? Do you think you're driven?
IMHO, for most folk, being a decent alpine climber means you have to be satisfied at least as much from things as they occur bottom-up as they do top-down. What I mean is this: you want to summit peak X because you just do (top down). Do you think you're really interested in doing all of the things it'll take to make that happen (bottom up)? Many folks want things in a top-down sense, but aren't willing and/or don't want the bottom-up things necessary to make it happen.
I only write this the way I do because you sound like you're young. That's a good thing. This is gonna sound totally dick, but I think most people who have the necessary motivation to be serious alpine climbers are resourceful and self - actualized enough to get information on how to pursue their goal without making vague internet posts.
(This post was edited by jjanowia on Apr 8, 2008, 10:09 PM)
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bonin_in_the_boneyard
Apr 8, 2008, 10:38 PM
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I'm more or less just starting out myself and I'm enjoying this thread. But after 16 replies there seems to be an almost eerie absence of the usual bad advice. At the risk of bucking this trend I'd like to add my own two cents:
I'm finding that Alpine climbing is a combination of trad and ultralight winter backpacking. Any time you can't actually be alpine climbing, trad or winter backpacking is good practice.
Also, get your body and mind used to BIG days. I was out for 19 hours pretty much non-stop Saturday. It really makes you feel alive -- and dead at the same time 
I don't know what your abilities are, but don't be afraid to work your way through 3rd and 4th class terrain before getting heavy. Even that stuff can be pretty exciting when you're weighed down with gear at altitude!
Some great reading to get you into the mindset (if you don't have them already) are "Kiss or Kill" by Mark Twight, and "The White Spider" by Heinrich Herrer. A lot of this game is mental, and reading about the unreal s--t other people have gone through will help you keep perspective when things get funky out there.
Last thing: DON'T GO OUT IN BAD WEATHER - at least in the beginning. It's not hardcore, it's putting yourself at an extreme disadvantage, possibly danger. Wait for a nice weekend and go bigger/harder. If you're planning a trip with someone put aside two or three weekends in a row so you have a weather window.
See ya out there...
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reno
Apr 8, 2008, 10:53 PM
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dingus wrote: An awful lot of mountaineering and its sterner cousin alpinism is about walking up hill with loads of gear on yer back.... so big thighs and a willingness to suffer is key. How do you like pain?
Exactly right. Someone once said that suffering is part of mountaineering, while it is the objective of alpinism.
Or something like that.
My take is quite in line with Mr. Milktoast's assessment: Have a solid foundation of rock and rope work. Study, read, and learn from others. Know your limitations, know when it's safe to push them, and be ready for the pain.... cause it really sucks when you're doing it, but it's really good when it's done.
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bonin_in_the_boneyard
Apr 8, 2008, 11:46 PM
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That's a great site. Articles like this really help pass the days between climbs. I.e., workdays 
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acarp
May 20, 2008, 7:33 PM
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Who has actually taken a course? Was it a waste of money? Say I wanted to test the waters in alpinism, where else would I look besides are class? Are many climbers willing to help a newbie out? I can imagine that most people would like their partner to have at least some level of competence before going out.
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stymingersfink
May 21, 2008, 5:27 AM
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take up Heroin. Same difference, except that with heroin O.D.'s they will usually find the body eventually.
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EvilMonkey
May 21, 2008, 9:26 PM
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I never took a course. of course, i'm not doing any alpine climbing yet either. I'm basically doing what everybody else has already advised you to do. Move some place where you can climb a lot that gets cold in the winter. spend your first coupl of winters learning about avalanch safety, maybe backcountry snowboarding, or whatever. definitely start technical ice climbing as much as you can. and something that i didn't see mentioned is that you should be comfortable with climbing easy to moderate terrain unroped, if you wanna tackle the serious shit. experience and conditioning. it's all about moving. you gotta be quick, and you gotta be able to function when you're totally sketched out. kelly cordes has a pretty good vid on youtube. just type his name in the search box. good luck!
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papromulgator
May 24, 2008, 8:06 PM
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sprog wrote: how did you guys get started in this sport?
drive...just make it your priority and the rest will follow.
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wcfauna
May 24, 2008, 8:55 PM
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dingus wrote: An awful lot of mountaineering and its sterner cousin alpinism is about walking up hill with loads of gear on yer back.... so big thighs and a willingness to suffer is key. How do you like pain? If your ideal answer is 'I hate pain?' Seek no more....
It reminds me of a saying, which in estonian sounds "mägimatkal on raskuseks mäed, suusamatkal suusad" and can loosely be translated into something like "in mountaineering, difficulty are the mountains, in ski expeditions, difficulty are the skis". Nothing can be more true :)
About getting a grip with alpinism, I can't really help because I like backpacking in the mountains and rock climbing in warm sunny places. Alpinism is somewhere in between and I'm still pushing my comfort zone into hanging on a wall in cold :) But I second to the advice to go out and get started with it. Just try to avoid stupid situations that can have disastrous outcomes until you know what you are doing.
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rowan
Jun 1, 2008, 3:25 PM
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There is lots of great advice on this thread. I thought I'd add my .02 cents, since I've actually taken the Alpine Ascents International 5 day mountaineering course.
All in all, I found the course to be tremendously valuable, and it was a great week. It was also what got me hooked on mountaineering.
When I took the course my goal was to climb a big Himalayan peak (possibly with AAI). After the course was over I started to climb on my own and subsequently found Alpinism. Obviously this changed my direction dramatically, however more on that later.
Here are the pros and cons of the course that I took.
Pros:
* If you don't have "friends" who can take you out, or who are willing to go out with a noob, a course is for you. I had ice climbing friends, and mountaineers around, but calendars and other events always seemed to transpire to prevent us from getting out together. This was frustrating to me, as I wanted to get into the mountains post haste!
* Even if you DO have the right friends, it is unlikely they will spend 5 days teaching you basic lessons.
* The course will give you a relatively safe environment to get up to speed on many of the basics of mountaineering.
* Guides were *terrific*, very helpful, patient, etc.
Cons:
* Skill/fitness/dedication level mismatches between me and the other clients. Most of the others in the class were not anywhere near as fit, dedicated or committed as I was (with 1 exception), so I found that I was waiting around alot for others to learn things which I thought should have been simple/fast.
* Cost
At the end of the day, I believe there are many more pros than cons. If your goal is to get into the mountains, and you can afford it, and you don't have Steve House, Kelly Cordes or vince Anderson at your disposal, then I'd highly recommend you just go take the course.
After taking this course, I got into the mountains every weekend, made friends with local climbers, got my rock climbing friends into alpine climbing, went out solo, and generally felt that I had a very solid base for attacking much more serious objectives.
The course gave me the practical experience with all the skills you read about in Freedom of the Hills. I find many of the alpine climbers I meet have never actually prusiked themselves out of a crevasse, or set up a Z pulley, etc. Certainly you can learn these skills by falling into a crevasse the first time, or you can spend the time ahead of time practicing those skills.
After getting a bunch of alpine climbing under my belt, I decided to take an "accelerated" approach to my alpine climbing career by hiring a succession of private guides to climb with me, and teach me specific skills, like ice climbing, etc.
Having a private guide allowed me to avoid the issue of skill mismatches with other members of a group of clients, but had the downside of significant added cost. This could easily be defrayed by adding one or two other friends who you are certain have the same skill/dedicated/motivation that you have.
In the climbs that followed, the one downside of this accelerated approach was I realized was that my "skill" level was much further ahead of my experience level. That is, I had lots of skill to get myself onto huge technical alpine routes, and consequently huge amounts of trouble, but I had no experience to guide me out of it.
After my first epic, I quickly realized nothing takes the place of experience.
Now I have plenty of friends in the climbing world, and I don't recommend that they go out and do these classes, because I like to take them with me and I like to teach them this stuff myself. It saves them money, and I like to do it.
I suspect many other alpinists are like myself, and love to teach their friends whenever they possibly can. The downside here is that many people who are good at doing are *not* good at teaching. Usually they lack patience and the real techniques to teach someone else at the right gradient.
If you can find an experienced alpinist with good teaching ability, and who you can trust, then you should definitely take advantage of it, and save yourself the cash.
But if you can't find someone great, and you have the money and the time, I would highly recommend classes and guide services to teach you. If you have the dedication and motivation, I would further recommend professional guide services to help you along your way.
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Alpinisto
Jun 2, 2008, 1:31 AM
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Your profile doesn't say where you're located, but as other replies have indicated, proximity to los montanas will have the most impact on how quickly/easily/cheaply you can get into alpinism. (If you're a coupla hours away, chances are there are other alpinists/alpinist wanna-be's near you that you can hook up with and learn from. If you're in Ft. Lauderdale, chances are that a class is gonna give you a kick start that local climber won't be able to.)
A coupla other thoughts:
-Start trad climbing. You'll learn the knots, pro placements and rope-management skills that are a very big part of alpine climbing. (Clipping bolts is fun and can be a great workout, but IMO, doesn't have as much crossover for alpine climbing as trad does.)
-If you DO end up taking a class, I'm a go out on a limb and say that the stock weeklong beginner class may not be the most effective use of your time and money. As Rowan noted above, you may be matched up with a bunch of other noobs that need to be taught the most basic stuff (like what is a carabiner and how to tie a figure-eight) -- i.e., giant waste of time and money.
Instead of speding $1,500 and five days to learn not as much as you'd like, you could spend maybe $250 for a single day one-on-one with a guide and learn EXACTLY what you need to, skipping over the stuff that you already know. Hell, at those rates, you could do three private lesson days for half the cost of a week-long noobie class and, I'd argue learn WAY more.
I'm just sayin'...
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rowan
Jun 2, 2008, 5:13 AM
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Agree with Alpinisto -- if you can afford a private guide for 1:1 or even 1:2 instruction it seems more economical than the 5-day class.
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theirishman
Jun 18, 2008, 3:58 PM
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screw freedom of the hells. Get the Mountaineering Handbook! That is hands down the BEST mountaineering/alpine climbing book on the market, no questions asked
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old_apple_juice
Jul 17, 2008, 4:19 AM
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Being a relative noob, I found that some of the folks at my local section of the Alpine Club are super helpful.
Not sure how the Alpine Club is in the States, but I've learned a ton of rope skills and tricks, met some great folks and just avoided the 'overly social' folks, because I'm an introvert and I'd rather climb than talk.
Also the mountaineering trip offered by my section is generally really cheap (compared to alternatives) and come with mentors, guides, cheap hut access etc. etc.
Just another solution that is perhaps cheaper and slightly more regulated than 'fishing' for partners....lots of folks seem to agree that having a good partner is necessary and I think the Alpine Club lets you do some good 'partner' shopping....
Depends on the folks in your region, and it may not be your bag. I avoided the club initially, but then again, I was into sport climbing and bouldering before.....now I'd prefer to have more of an adventure....I mean you could bivy on a sport route if you really wanted.....I suppose. |
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timd
Aug 27, 2008, 10:23 AM
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My first piece of advice would be to stay the hell awy from Majid, Second get a guide, they will give you the basics hands on.
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Eskil
Sep 12, 2008, 11:04 AM
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Spend a summer in Chamonix climbing all the famous ridges and easy mixed snow/ice peaks. Read up closely on your object climb, talk to locals about the conditions. be well prepared in terms of equipment.
If deciding to hire a guide I recommend http://www.mountain-spirit-guides.com
They will challenge and instruct you at your level and as far as you want to go, more info about their alpine climbing courses at http://www.mountain-spirit-guides.com/...climbing-courses.asp
(This post was edited by Eskil on Feb 3, 2009, 3:58 PM)
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