Hexes aren't always passive.

The spelling of the subject line of this thread pains me.

Yep.

What about tricams and big bros?

I'm going to try to get in a passive-only climb this weekend. Back to the basics!

The subject of this thread pains me.

I know i spell

What about sliding nuts?

Sweat will go easily if you have big tri-cams.

okay, I just thought of a better way to describe it. Active gear actively creates friction (which holds it in place) when pulled on. Passive relies on the rock being in the way of it's movement.

That's a ridiculous definition and many spring loaded camming device placements would actually fit in there. There are pod shaped placements that hold a cam without relying on the springs and camming angle friction. Cammed hexes, tricams and big bros rely on a feature of the rock to provide a pivot that holds them in place.

okay, I just thought of a better way to describe it. Active gear actively creates friction (which holds it in place) when pulled on. Passive relies on the rock being in the way of it's movement.

Yeah, I have a full set, but will probably leave them at home and take the nuts and hexes instead. We were on Sweat a couple weeks ago and I didn't think about the all-passive send. Probably will be on other stuff this weekend anyway.

Perhaps something in the Triple Cracks area....

Sweat will go easily if you have big tri-cams.

The amish protect their climbs with ONLY passive gear. Active gear is the work of the devil, though some amish youth experiment with cams as teenagers.

One thing is for certain... Amish climbers NEVER zipper their pro. NEVER!

DMT

Ummm. Am I missing out on some inside joke?

yes. Amish do not use zippers. It was funny. hehehe.

Make sure that the first placement is multi-directional. Very important, or you could zipper everything out on a fall. (look in How to Rock Climb, by John Long for a good illustration on zippering)

meh. Sweat goes easily as a v0- boulder problem.

I consider anything that relies on twisting, camming, or other movements to stay in positions. To me this includes cammed hexes, ball nutz, cammed tricams, cam hooks (leepers), copperheads and big bros. Passive includes threads, nuts, wedged hexes, pins, hooks, wedged tricams, wedged knots, chockstones, and cams with stops that are placed fully open (when you already used the right sized nut or whatever).
But of course that's just me.

Well, I didn't get my all-passive climb in this weekend. Maybe when we go to the Wichita's.....

The subject of this thread pains me.

Climbed with this cat in Australia back in 03. Not only would this guy ONLY climb with a rack of passive gear, he also refused to use chalk and refused to ware climbing shoes. He would lead 5.11 face and crack with ease. Crazy but true.

This is true. However, when the gloriously epic summit of enchanted rock is only 20 higher, it is almost a waste to not practice gear placements.
You are speaking to a guy who managed to do the 10 pitch traverse of the main dome out of sheer boredom.

Dang! That's impressive. I admire his desire to stay true to his style!

Of course they all create friction, but in a 0 friction world nuts would still work, wouldn't they?

Nuts would not function in a zero friction world. They would either split or crush the rock with outward force, or the force would destroy the nut itself.

If you'd like to do the math, notice that as you reduce friction and taper angle, outward force increases. There's an asymptote at zero friction or angle where outward force approaches infinity.

Of course this is all theoretical, and has no place in the real world; nor do arbitrary gear definitions. It all makes interesting discussions, but I don't take it to the rock.

I place what I need to to be safe. I try not to get into a rut, though. By practicing lesser-used placements, I'm prepared to safely climb in a greater variety of conditions.

Phillip

Fuckin' kids these days. I tell 'ya. Any gear that is not spring loaded is "passive" even if it relies on camming action. Duh...

Curt

Are big bros passive then?

If you'd like to do the math, notice that as you reduce friction and taper angle, outward force increases. There's an asymptote at zero friction or angle where outward force approaches infinity.

I place what I need to to be safe. I try not to get into a rut, though. By practicing lesser-used placements, I'm prepared to safely climb in a greater variety of conditions.

while they do have springs in the design the springs aren't required for the device to work. a cam with no springs would be reletively useless. a big bro with no springs, while very hard to place, would still hold.

...
If you'd like to do the math, notice that as you reduce friction and taper angle, outward force increases. ...

Nuts would not function in a zero friction world.

I know i spell

Nuts would not function in a zero friction world. They would either split or crush the rock with outward force, or the force would destroy the nut itself.

If you'd like to do the math, notice that as you reduce friction and taper angle, outward force increases. There's an asymptote at zero friction or angle where outward force approaches infinity.

Of course this is all theoretical, and has no place in the real world; nor do arbitrary gear definitions. It all makes interesting discussions, but I don't take it to the rock.

I'm curious if their are any using only passive gear

Mo cow bell

approach to climbing

The subject of this thread pains me.

well ill just use them passively, technically they do have an axle....

That's right kids, Memorial Day 2009 is going to be the first 'National Cam-Free Day'! Go passive and grab a piece of history. Hell you'll still have harnesses, ultra-stick rubber, and skinny ropes - go for it, and get a taste of how Grandma and pa did things in the bad ole' days. Quaking or smiling, it will be a day you won't forget!

Ya I climb with a set of nuts too, always.. tend to carry smaller ones in ice though

Why don't you REALLY go full on purest, and toss all the metal, use only knotted slings?
There are actually crags where this is the rule.

Ya I climb with a set of nuts too, always.. tend to carry smaller ones in ice though

well i could fill my pockets with rocks..

..wear hobnail boots and climb on a hemp rope ohh, and wear my laterhosen (Sp) but i think i would get alot of strange looks, ill try throwing in a knoted slink or two just for you....

Doesn't that limit the routes you can do in winter?

It quickly seems apparen that your theoretical world is flawed in theory. In theory land there are two contact forces between parallel surfaces - friction and the normal force. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Normal_force You seem to have completely forgotton about this normal force which just so happens to be the most important force in nut placements.

With wedged nuts in wedged shaped cracks it is trivial to resolve the force vectors allowing only for forces that are normal to the surfaces.

In contrast cams operate in parallel cracks where the two contact force vectors are both orthoganal to the force applied. Thus friction forces are required to resolve the vector problem.

To get more geeky the two contact normal vectors are not parallel in the plane thus vector resolution can occur. With parallel cracks an orthoganal vector in terms of friction is needed to oppose the applied force.

If you are going to do the math. Do it right. And don't ignore the 50% of the contact forces!


(written aggressively but no malice intended, you went geek so I went geekier)

healyje ill take that challenge. heading ot to dome rock next weekend to hopefully do anti jello craack and tree route of course!

That's a ridiculous definition and many spring loaded camming device placements would actually fit in there. There are pod shaped placements that hold a cam without relying on the springs and camming angle friction. Cammed hexes, tricams and big bros rely on a feature of the rock to provide a pivot that holds them in place.

I would say that only ballnuts and SLCDs are active. Gear that relies on springs and movement within the device to engage the rock.

On easy climbs my friends and I often play gear games. Tricam only ascents. Nut only ascents. Some climbs take passive gear best and it doesn't even need to be contrived. I wouldn't make a day of it though.