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sid_rock
Apr 19, 2003, 4:23 AM
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Lately I have been pondering a question that has no doubt vexed many-a-climber since the dawn of civilization: Are monkeys better climbers than humans?
Well, what do you think?
This is a serious question not asked in jest, and I offer the following in its defense. While a cursory examination of the topic might lead one to believe that monkeys can outclimb the best human climber, deeper examination will reveal cracks in this assumption. For instance, it is a known fact that monkeys rely overly on upper body strength, choosing to campus any boulder problem they encounter, making little use of their legs. (Furthermore, their incessant hooting and hollering, an obvious attempt to draw attention to themselves, surely takes away some of their focus and energy from the boulder problem at hand.) So, while their upper body strength is no doubt superior to humans, an over-reliance on this may very well prove to be their undoing on more difficult and technical routes, especially those with exceptionally small holds. So while a monkey might flash a 5.10 overhanging route, how would a monkey fare on a 5.14d?
Not too well, I think.
My contention is that the best human climber can climb practically anything a monkey can (except perhaps those climbs that require massive dynos--not even Chris Sharma could jump 20 feet from tree to tree), monkeys cannot climb everything a human can. So, humans might in fact be superior climbers.
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jumpingrock
Apr 19, 2003, 5:21 AM
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First off I am gonna make it known that I think this topic is pretty stupid. This said I am going to come up with a response.
The problem with considering who is a better climber humans or monkeys is that the shear number of different monkey species with different climbing abilities completly nulls any possible comparison. This aside assuming you are simply picking an average monkey, there is no way in hell that a human can climb as well as a monkey. Monkeys can climb trees correct? And not neccesarily those trees that have branches low on them or even trees you can wrap your arms around. The only holds they use are the bark. If Chris Sharma could send one of those trees (free solo) I myself would be amazed. Of course monkey hands are smaller and therefore can utalize smaller holds. If the monkey was human size they might not be able to send the tree themselves. I am no monkey expert nor do I claim to be.
However, I will agree that average monkey would never be able to send a 14d but would have no trouble with a 10d. On the other hand an average human can't send a 10d and would have trouble with a 6. I am sure that if you trained a monkey long enough (as much as Chris Sharma trains) then she would have no trouble at all sending a 14d or a 15a. Think about the hand strength, the flexability and the mental determination to reach the bananas at the top. So basically monkeys are better climbers than humans and this topic should be moved to community.
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tori
Apr 19, 2003, 5:33 AM
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In reply to: , it is a known fact that monkeys rely overly on upper body strength, choosing to campus any boulder problem they encounter, making little use of their legs. (Furthermore, their incessant hooting and hollering, an obvious attempt to draw attention to themselves, .
stop telling everyone what i do at the crags!
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mowz
Apr 19, 2003, 2:51 PM
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yes
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rockram
Apr 19, 2003, 4:16 PM
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hmmmm...
well, ask yourself this: why does a monkey climb? Survival. a monkey climbs to stay alive...to get away from hungry tigers, get bananas, you know, that sorta thing. Why does a human climber climb? this can be a very philosophical question, but when it comes right down to it, because it's FUN! these are two very different motivations for climbing, and for this reason, the two species specialize in different types of climbing. Monkeys, for survival purposes, have evolved into being tree climbing experts, as this is the most useful for them. That's why their arms are much longer, and they have those funny short little legs that can grip nicely and stuff. Those traits help them to climb trees, better than any human surely could. however, i have never seen a monkey climbing the face of a cliff, any level. i seriously have my doubts that a monkey could do it with those funny little legs, and i'm not sure a monkey could crimp either, with those funny little thumbs. a monkey is very evolved and strong, but i would tend to think he's more geared towards gripping branches and wrapping around them and the sort.
another factor, monkeys possibly could learn to climb rocks, because they are very strong and all, and they aren't really all that dumb. it is highly probable that they could work through their problems with short legs and funny fingers: they aren't too bad at being problem solvers. but, as they are not as advanced mentally as humans, they cannot make their own climbing gear. or maybe they could, but i don't know...i get this picture in my head of a monkey using a homemade vine rope and bamboo caribiners, and then, when he falls...snap! :( poor monkey. so, in nature, a monkey would probably not climb a cliff face, as it would not at this moment be in the best interest for his survival. but this is a curious question. a scientific research climbing team should get right on this; training a monkey to rock climb.
hypothesis: maybe, with human counterpart assistance, and the assistance of man made gear, a monkey could learn to at least top rope. and who knows, they are pretty smart. maybe someday, you'll also find them leading and belaying at the local crag! :D
do scientific climbing research teams even exist? well, maybe they should, solely for the purpose of teaching a monkey to climb. i would really like to see that :shock: !
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vertical_planar
Apr 19, 2003, 4:47 PM
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Humans climb better
Take G. Bush for example...
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moeman
Apr 19, 2003, 5:47 PM
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Yeah, as VP said, look at George Bush. He is a monkey and he probably can't climb to well. :wink:
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sid_rock
Apr 19, 2003, 5:49 PM
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In reply to: Humans climb better Take G. Bush for example...
This is a serious forum discussing a serious topic of genuine interest to the scientific community. Attempts to politicize it are not appreciated. Please keep your responses limited to monkeys and their climbing abilities.
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kevlar
Apr 19, 2003, 6:02 PM
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You know what they say ? "When you give a monkey a (( Peanut ))??
YoUr GiVeNiNg ThEm Sids......brain......take off the pile of rocks from your head....sid....get a life....
It is said we are "evolved from monkeys........heck i have been known to be dumb as a monkey at times :D :D
but sid...you take the can of peanuts
a better ??? question....why don/t many none whites climb...are the color challenged people better???
wait i felt something in my head...move....phew....thought it was my brain working....but guess not.....
Jesus loves you an made some great places to enjoy....so lets Rock ON
sorry if i affended someone with this post..... :oops: :cry: :? :(
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sid_rock
Apr 19, 2003, 6:10 PM
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In reply to: You know what they say ? "When you give a monkey a (( Peanut ))?? YoUr GiVeNiNg ThEm Sids...... brain......take off the pile of rocks from your head....sid....get a life.... It is said we are "evolved from monkeys........heck i have been known to be dumb as a monkey at times :D :D but sid...you take the can of peanuts a better ??? question....why don/t many none whites climb...are the color challenged people better??? wait i felt something in my head...move....phew....thought it was my brain working....but guess not..... Jesus loves you an made some great places to enjoy....so lets Rock ON sorry if i affended someone with this post..... :oops: :cry: :? :(
While I am still undecided on whether monkeys are better climbers than humans, I am quite certain that a monkey could compose a more coherent response than this one.
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straightedgeteen
Apr 19, 2003, 6:19 PM
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In reply to: hmmmm... well, ask yourself this: why does a monkey climb? Survival. a monkey climbs to stay alive...to get away from hungry tigers, get bananas, you know, that sorta thing.
HAHA u cracked me up lol
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bmoscon
Apr 19, 2003, 7:10 PM
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:roll: no
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vegandago
Apr 19, 2003, 8:48 PM
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there has gotta be some scientist or primate lover out there that has got one of them to try climbing in a gym or on real rock. I'd like to see the results of such activities. i bet there is even a scientist that has conducted a study on it. lets find the results! i'm really curious
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beercanclimber
Apr 19, 2003, 9:03 PM
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In reply to: Lately I have been pondering a question that has no doubt vexed many-a-climber since the dawn of civilization: Are monkeys better climbers than humans?
pretty sad if these are the things you think about... :roll:
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redpiton
Apr 19, 2003, 11:13 PM
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The monkey would look at the bananas at the top, and he would walk around until he could get to them. :idea: :idea: :idea: Why take the hardest path?
Just because oversized gorillas can climb to the top of the Empire State Building doesn't mean that they can pull down on hard rock.
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moeman
Apr 20, 2003, 1:21 AM
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Sorry about that- i couldn't help the Bush joke.
Now, back to the monkeys.
I personally think that a monkey would needmore motivation to climb rock. They are use to acrobatically swining around on vines, not climbing from unmovable hold to unmovable hold. To them, rock would be simple boring in campaaison to thier vines. Maybe if you put bananas at the top of every boulder....
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raingod
Apr 20, 2003, 3:04 AM
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When I was in Thailand I saw monkeys freesoloing walls that I couldn't climb with rope shoes and chalk. So they were better than this human.
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tungsten_carbide
Apr 20, 2003, 6:31 AM
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I think so.
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mike
Apr 20, 2003, 2:02 PM
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If you level the playing field and give the monkey some climbing instruction like the human gets, I think the monkey would completely kick ass. It may need some training through positive reenforcement for things like hand jams in a crack. If you've ever tangled with a monkey you know that they are monsterously strong, even a little Spider Monkey, but that's another story.
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brutusofwyde
Apr 20, 2003, 10:45 PM
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Interestingly, this issue has had some serious scientific research from prominent psychologists, sociologists, and primatologists.
Monkeys are definitely better climbers than humans. Both in the average "generic" primate and in those at the top levels of primate athletic performance, monkeys consistently outperform their human counterparts.
Even then, most monkeys do not live up to the full potential of their athletic abilities.
In one controlled study, cohorts of monkeys were raised in two very different environments: although the climbing problems were identical, the consequences of failure were engineered to be quite different. Failure for one cohort would generally result in painful falls, sometimes injury, and potentially, death. The other cohort was raised in a nearly identical environment with the exception that landings were padded sufficiently that failure usually resulted in a soft stop, and another try to send the problem.
The end result was that the first group of monkeys (those that survived) ended up at a significantly lower level of climbing skill than the second group.
These principles have been applied for decades in human athletic training ranging from gymnastics and climbing to track and field. And yet those monkeys, learning to climb in the unforgiving natural world, still outperform us.
Brutus
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sid_rock
Apr 21, 2003, 12:25 AM
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In reply to: In one controlled study, cohorts of monkeys were raised in two very...
Is there a URL where we can reference this study? I am curious about the kind of climbing that these monkeys were performing.
On another note, I keep hearing the argument that monkeys don't have proper training, and therefore they can't climb as well as humans. Well, folks, news flash: Monkeys don't have proper training because they are monkeys! There is only so much you could train a primate to do by dangling a banana at the end of a stick.
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mike
Apr 21, 2003, 12:41 AM
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If Washoe can learn enough American Sign Language to at least mimic communication, a monkey can learn a hand jam. Hell, you can teach a white rat to raise a flag with B. F. Skinner's name on it in a few days.
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jgill
Apr 21, 2003, 1:30 AM
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If you ever get a chance, watch the old 1920s movie "The Lost World". At one point a monkey saves the day by climbing a vertical cliff to deliver a thin rope to a character trapped in a cave. The monkey zips up the rock with far more facility than one can imagine even an elite climber showing. My vote is with the monkeys. 8)
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iclimb512s
Apr 21, 2003, 2:25 AM
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can monkeys climb 100ft 5.14d sport routes....or can they boulder v15?
hell no
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raingod
Apr 21, 2003, 3:41 AM
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In reply to: can monkeys climb 100ft 5.14d sport routes....or can they boulder v15? hell no |
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jumpingrock
Apr 21, 2003, 4:23 AM
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With proper training a monkey could climb a V15. They are built to climb. Not like us humans. Another thing: Take off our shoes, throw away the chalk and then compare. Humans are the primary species because of our brains (most of our brains). Not because of any physical attributes. Take away that and then you have a more level playing field. And truthfully I think that nobody should talk unless they get some serious research.
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sandbag
Apr 21, 2003, 4:45 AM
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This is the best troll Yet!
Take a 20lb monkey and a 200lb human, and see what happens. Humans have become weaker mentally in the aspects of our domestication. Primates are sooo much more in touch with their "primal Instincts" so have a definate edge over humans in a lot of things: Fighting, fleeing, and climbing to name a few. So now as i was saying, " In this corner, straight from Madagascar, wieghing in at 20 lb........"
:shock:
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sycamore
Apr 21, 2003, 5:43 AM
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On a strictly physiological level, the monkey, hands down. If a climber's brain were some transplanted in, say, a chimp's head, and you let it train fingers for a few years. . . Their massive strength/weight advantage would blow any human climber away.
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sid_rock
Apr 21, 2003, 5:55 AM
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In reply to: If a climber's brain were some transplanted in, say, a chimp's head, and you let it train fingers for a few years. . .
That's just about the stupidest thing I've heard since... this thread.
An intrinsic part of the equation is the monkey's intelligence, which affects its ability to train for the problem at hand over a period of time. If you change that by putting a human mind in a chimp's body, the original question is no longer relevant.
Not to mention, if such a transplant were in fact carried out, it would send our legal system into a tailspin since we would have to determine whether this new monkey-man hybrid you speak of is man or ape.
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on_sight_man
Apr 21, 2003, 2:20 PM
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I saw an article in Climbing about a group of Baboons running from a photagrapher. He then goes into a description of how they climbed a cliff to escape him and that they were doing huge dynos to very small holds. Talking about 5.15 climbing easy. Though he also described the hesitation that some of them had to do some of the moves.
I've also heard of troops of baboons that forage at the edge of cliffs and then escape predators by hurling themselves over the edge catching grass and edges as they fall to stop themselves. This was seen by a friend of mine in Bali.
So I think the argument about trees versus rocks is a no go. Monkeys are WAY better bth because of physiology AND because they do it ALL the time (even more than some of you)
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craggy
Apr 21, 2003, 3:06 PM
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I would have to say monkeys are FAR superior climbers to humans. First off monkey's (chimps) have exceptional strength to weight ratio! They have THE BEST ape index around, their arms are practivally dragging on the ground! They don't NEED legs for this reason! As for a crimpy 5.14d? That's not fair, considering ANY dyno problem a chimp can make up is EASILY a v20. Also, monkeys are fearless mofos, jumping 100s of feat in the air from one tree branch to another!! unreal! I bow down to the monkey's are supreme climbers....
Now, the real question is THIS: Mountain Goats or HUMANS!??!?!?!
Craggy
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jumpingrock
Apr 22, 2003, 5:12 AM
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Mountain goats don't climb technical routes. But they could run circles around any alpine climber alive. So basically your question is not really valid. And of course if you say that there are some alpine routes that require technical climbing then you should know that the goat would find another way up. pretty simple. Humans are terrible climbers. We are not built to climb. Anything that is biologically built to climb will be able to outclimb us.
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craggy
Apr 22, 2003, 5:28 AM
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Jumpin... heh I was trying to be funny about the goats... o well....
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wongwong
Apr 22, 2003, 5:29 AM
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This is a sweet topic. 'Course the answer is that that monkey's are better. I saw a monkey wearing a pair of Anasazi Velcro's boulder V12 once. Full onsite, and the monkey had never climbed before (looked like his shoes were WAY too big too). Of course, the monkey used his tail for balance... so it was kind of cheating.
Arf
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philbox
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Apr 22, 2003, 5:39 AM
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The monkeys in Thailand are definitely far superior than any climber who has ever been there. As a matter of fact I can relate an anecdote told to me by a climber who was pumping himself silly on some outrageously overhung nightmare. Whilst in the middle of this crux a couple of monkeys were having an argument on the wall and one of them is running up one handed with a bunch of bananas in the other chased by the other monkey grabbing the first ones tail to slow him down.
Needless to say the climber was totally deflated by all these goings on. He felt so inadequate. This is a fairly regular occurence over there so my vote is that monkeys are definitely much better than humans. Ceppin maybe for those punk kids I saw sport climbing the other day.
...Phil...
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wonderwoman
Apr 22, 2003, 3:26 PM
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When I was a little girl, my mother made me wear correctional shoes because my left big toe stuck out like a thumb. So basically I had one monkey foot. Imagine how much of a better climber I would have been if my mom had let nature take its course. I think my climbing desire is primal.
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overlord
Apr 22, 2003, 4:40 PM
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on rock not, because they lack crimping strenght and technique :twisted:
on trees definitly yes
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neadamthal
Apr 22, 2003, 4:50 PM
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i was actually talking about this same topic with a friend over the weekend. we decided the exact same thing, that the best human can climb harder than the best monkey/primate, but given practice and the cognitive ability to 'figure out' a route, monkeys would DEFINATELY have the edge.
don't listen to them - i think its a great topic!
In reply to: In reply to: Humans climb better Take G. Bush for example... This is a serious forum discussing a serious topic of genuine interest to the scientific community. Attempts to politicize it are not appreciated. Please keep your responses limited to monkeys and their climbing abilities.
chill out sid... of all the people on this site, you should be mor than ready to sh*t on GW! we canadians love dumping on him (and, argueably of course, rightfully so!)...
personally i think GW would be a great climber. he seems to be able to climb out of all the holes he keeps digging for himself! so far, anyway.
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sid_rock
Apr 22, 2003, 5:23 PM
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In reply to: chill out sid... of all the people on this site, you should be mor than ready to sh*t on GW! we canadians love dumping on him (and, argueably of course, rightfully so!)...
I stand by my objection. This is a topic of extraordinary scientific merit, and political tangents vitiate its sanctity. All discussions must be limited to monkeys, their climbing abilities, and perhaps other miscellaneous monkey-related issues.
On an unrelated note, I emailed a guy called Mark Cosslett who worked on a TV show that studied the climbing ability of baboons, and here’s what he had to say:
In reply to: Hi Sid, I’ve talked to Todd Skinner on this topic and he seems to agree that Baboons (at least) are better climbers than humans, but you have a point on the overhanging stuff – I haven’t seen them climb that so I can’t comment. Mark |
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palo
Apr 22, 2003, 5:31 PM
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Monkeys aren't stupid enough to climb rocks.
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sid_rock
Apr 22, 2003, 5:31 PM
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In reply to: Whilst in the middle of this crux a couple of monkeys were having an argument on the wall...
I suppose the monkeys were arguing on how to divy up the bananas?
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wonderwoman
Apr 22, 2003, 6:19 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: Humans climb better Take G. Bush for example... This is a serious forum discussing a serious topic of genuine interest to the scientific community. Attempts to politicize it are not appreciated. Please keep your responses limited to monkeys and their climbing abilities.
Don't even tell me you haven't heard of GW referred to as 'Curious George'. The resemblance is remarkable!
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sid_rock
Apr 22, 2003, 6:40 PM
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In reply to: Don't even tell me you haven't heard of GW referred to as 'Curious George'. The resemblance is remarkable!
David Frum, a one-time speechwriter for George Bush and part of his inner clique, says the following about George Bush in his book, The Right Man: The Surprise Presidency of George W. Bush: "He is impatient and quick to anger; sometimes glib, even dogmatic; often uncurious and as a result ill informed; more conventional in his thinking than a leader should be."
So, if anything, I would call Dubya Uncurious George.
Now can we please go back to talking about real monkeys?
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reasontobehave
Jun 19, 2003, 8:35 PM
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Someone asked about scientific on apes.
Check anthropologists, too. J.R. Napier and his wife Prudence, also Jane Goodall, a lot on the apes and chimps, some on how we might compare.
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pinkamy
Jun 23, 2003, 1:35 AM
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Uhhh... monkeys are better.
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dirtineye
Jun 23, 2003, 2:45 AM
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I can't believe I replied to this idiotic post. I need anohter banana.
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ronamick
Jul 3, 2003, 1:24 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: Lately I have been pondering a question that has no doubt vexed many-a-climber since the dawn of civilization: Are monkeys better climbers than humans? pretty sad if these are the things you think about... :roll:
Rrrrrrrrrrrr.... thought police! lighten up, bunkie!
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micahmcguire
Jul 3, 2003, 3:19 AM
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no, humans are better than monkeys because humans are taller. humans can climb circles around goats, but goats can move pretty fast over steep terrain.
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craggy
Jul 3, 2003, 3:26 AM
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Registered: Oct 3, 2002
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I went to the Toronto zoo not too long ago and saw a monkey climb what looked like a featureless rock in a second. It was literally a fingernail crack to a nearly vertical sloper and then dynoed 10 feet to a thin ledge and mantled ... this ledge was no thicker then your thumb.
Monkeys are born to climb stop being silly people...
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iamthewallress
Jul 3, 2003, 3:43 AM
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Get the R&I anthology and read the monkey story. I guess the monkey climbed better than everyone, but was afraid of heights and would start batmaning the rope and loosing control of his bowels whenever he got scared. The monkey did not lead, and his poor social skills probably would have been a liability as a boulderer.
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bagwhan
Jul 3, 2003, 4:29 AM
Post #51 of 62
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Registered: Apr 19, 2003
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I believe that when the space program needed chimps as "pilots" for their spacecraft, the didn't use any of the pansy stuff like positive reinforcement. They locked the animals in steel boxes for several days until they were "broken" and then they went on to training. In training, the chimps' legs were wired with electrodes, and whenever the chimp did something wrong, he was shocked. This proved to be very effective when it came to getting the chimp what the researchers wanted it to do. I reccomend this training regimen for the animals you are talking about. With their natural advantages and the special training they recieve, they will truly become super-monkeys, our climbing gods. We shall bow before them. And if we don't, we will be locked in steel boxes and shocked until we do.
Maybe the whole super-monkey idea isn't a good one after all.
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ajkclay
Jul 3, 2003, 4:44 AM
Post #52 of 62
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In reply to: iamthewallress said: poor social skills probably would have been a liability as a boulderer.
hmm some would say that this would be a prerequisite to being a boulderer. :lol:
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PJA7
Mar 29, 2009, 5:38 PM
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Monkeys are definitely better climbers than humans. I don't remember which film it was, but I remember in one of the climbing films I saw with Chris Sharma and some other big names deep water soloing on some island, there were monkeys just running around on every route they climbed, while they struggled to climb the routes.
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subantz
Mar 29, 2009, 8:16 PM
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Do worms eat dirt?
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anonymi
Mar 30, 2009, 6:03 PM
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Properly motivated (which is the problem), they will kick our asses every time.
Strength to weight - vastly better - their biceps attach lower down the ulna, providing loads more leverage than a humans.
Opposable big toes and over-extendable ankles- imagine having four immensely strong hands. The reason they can climb trees (and slabs) so well is their ability to stand on wide pinch grips from their feet.
Tails - no need to flag if yer a monkey, and if you're from S.America, its prehensile like a fifth hand, and verging on cheating....
And I speak from some experience as an (amost) doctor of primatology, having recently had to follow the little f***ers for a year in the field.
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odyssey11
Mar 30, 2009, 6:23 PM
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PJA7 wrote: Monkeys are definitely better climbers than humans. I don't remember which film it was, but I remember in one of the climbing films I saw with Chris Sharma and some other big names deep water soloing on some island, there were monkeys just running around on every route they climbed, while they struggled to climb the routes.
This is the video your talking about. Dosage 3.
Around 50 seconds in.
http://www.bigupproductions.com/...osage_III_Trailer_s/
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coolcat83
Mar 30, 2009, 6:27 PM
Post #58 of 62
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PJA7 wrote: Monkeys are definitely better climbers than humans. I don't remember which film it was, but I remember in one of the climbing films I saw with Chris Sharma and some other big names deep water soloing on some island, there were monkeys just running around on every route they climbed, while they struggled to climb the routes.
i'd like to see that
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graniteboy
Mar 30, 2009, 6:35 PM
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Likewise, Piana and Skinner were in Thailand putting up what they considered "super hard" routes.....for entertainment, they were putting bananas halfway up the route and watching the monkeys onsight soloing, zipping up to grab the food, on routes that the humans were "working"....falling off, trying the moves again, etc.
Think about it, people....thousands of generations of monkeys have been living in vertical environments and have genetically selected for superior climbing skills. You can't climb, you get eaten. Homo sapiens has no such genetic selection history. 3 million years ago, we lived in trees. But that time has long passed, and our bipedal tendencies outweighed our evolutionary climbing selection pressure long ago.
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fresh
Mar 30, 2009, 8:08 PM
Post #60 of 62
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graniteboy wrote: Think about it, people....thousands of generations of monkeys have been living in vertical environments and have genetically selected for superior climbing skills. You can't climb, you get eaten. Homo sapiens has no such genetic selection history. 3 million years ago, we lived in trees. But that time has long passed, and our bipedal tendencies outweighed our evolutionary climbing selection pressure long ago.
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graniteboy
Mar 30, 2009, 10:28 PM
Post #61 of 62
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Nah....I do it for the bananananananas.
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zeke_sf
Mar 30, 2009, 11:01 PM
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Monkeys are really bad at belaying.
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