|
flamingfeet17
May 20, 2003, 12:34 AM
Post #1 of 72
(5825 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 7, 2002
Posts: 39
|
I was just wondering what the hardest route in Utah is and where it's found
|
|
|
|
|
alpinerocket
May 20, 2003, 1:03 AM
Post #2 of 72
(5825 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 13, 2001
Posts: 496
|
Bolt Route BCC 5.4!!!!!! :lol:
|
|
|
|
|
kennoyce
May 20, 2003, 1:10 AM
Post #3 of 72
(5825 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 6, 2001
Posts: 1338
|
i am pretty sure that the hardest route in utah is i scream in hell cave, american fork canyon. it is rated 5.14c, and has only had three ascents that i know of. boone speed, a hard ass from salt lake, i donīt remember his name, and dave grahm, i am not sure if sharma has done it. also there is a project that some say sill go at 5.15 in pipe dream cave, maple canyon, its called dreamtime extension, but i think that it will go at like 14c or easier. hope this helps.
|
|
|
|
|
billburning
May 20, 2003, 1:29 AM
Post #4 of 72
(5825 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 28, 2002
Posts: 239
|
How about Epitaph, 5.13+ crack climb on tiny gear or Infitada A6 on cottontail tower, or any number of Jim Beyers routes all over the state are probably a little harder than some 5.14 clip up.
|
|
|
|
|
tradmanclimbs
May 20, 2003, 2:24 AM
Post #5 of 72
(5825 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 24, 2003
Posts: 2599
|
:twisted: Just about any 5.10+R gearless sandy chimny that you need goggles, a snorkle, serious life insurance and a prayer to get up is going to be harder than a clip up, regardless of the grade. Just ask the One armed dude with the pocket knife, I'm sure he will be able to steer you twords somthing exciteing :twisted:
|
|
|
|
|
fieldmouse
May 20, 2003, 4:40 AM
Post #6 of 72
(5825 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 25, 2002
Posts: 404
|
In reply to: How about Epitaph, 5.13+ crack climb on tiny gear or Infitada A6 on cottontail tower, or any number of Jim Beyers routes all over the state are probably a little harder than some 5.14 clip up.
finally someone with some sense.
|
|
|
|
|
cory
May 20, 2003, 4:58 AM
Post #7 of 72
(5825 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Feb 9, 2002
Posts: 40
|
As far as the hardest free climb goes, Psychadellic, 14d, at the Gorilla cliffs is my guess.
|
|
|
|
|
rockprodigy
May 20, 2003, 4:59 AM
Post #8 of 72
(5825 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 10, 2002
Posts: 1540
|
There's a 14d at the Gorilla Cliff in Santa Clara. Dave Graham did it a year and a half (?) ago, and to my knowledge it hasn't been repeated. Boone Speed worked it for awhile and couldn't do it. It's very bouldery, not very long...50' or so.
|
|
|
|
|
rockprodigy
May 20, 2003, 5:03 AM
Post #9 of 72
(5825 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 10, 2002
Posts: 1540
|
In reply to: Psychadellic, 14d, at the Gorilla cliffs is my guess
...that's what I was talking about.
|
|
|
|
|
photon
May 20, 2003, 2:41 PM
Post #10 of 72
(5825 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 31, 2002
Posts: 543
|
Since none of you "bad ass" armchair mountaineers has even the faintest idea of what it takes to climb 5.11, let alone 5.14, your basesless comparisons are humorous and revealing. You may as well give your opinion on brain surgery compared to piloting an F-15 or something it's just as valid and less prone to come under scrutiny on this site at least.
I'm assuming the person who started this thread was wandering what the hardest free climbing rock route in Utah was, not who the biggest idiot on this site was? I agree with the lazy boyz/girlz though, generally an impossible question to answer.
Hardest crack climb- maybe it is Dean's "new" climb (which I believe was "worked" in a sport climbing fashion over many tries over several years to be able to finally do it.) Obviously there are a ton of hard crack's in S. Utah. I can guarantee you though that Dean will never be able to (or want to) send the hardest sport routes in Utah. So that nullifies his climb, right? (armchair mountaineers logic sucks, no?)
Hardest sport route- Take your pick Psychedelic, Ice Scream or Nec Evil, (no AZ climbers had really anything to do with the VRG, so it's a Utah crag imo) Teach Dave how to use a cam he could probably send most any crack in Utah within a month or so, like Sharma and every other good sport climber who cared to dabble.
That's a hard pill to swallow isn't it "trad" dudes! Probably the greatest day of trad climbing ever, The Nose free, was done by a woman sport climber! Ha ha ha ha that is rich! oh yeah right behind her, Yuji, Huber bros, Tommy Caldwell, (all card carrying die-hard "sport climbers"),
Well, actually, they are just pure climbers who don't let training and close mindedness get in their way.
so the answer is, climb it all or you won't be able to have as much fun
|
|
|
|
|
w6jxm
May 20, 2003, 3:12 PM
Post #11 of 72
(5825 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 14, 2002
Posts: 792
|
You did not answer the question either photon. Why don't you take tham imaginary cam of yours and stick it up your butt where it belongs before you start bashing others for the very thing you did not do either.
|
|
|
|
|
brianinslc
May 20, 2003, 3:31 PM
Post #12 of 72
(5825 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 13, 2002
Posts: 1500
|
In reply to: Since none of you "bad ass" armchair mountaineers has even the faintest idea of what it takes to climb 5.11, let alone 5.14, your basesless comparisons are humorous and revealing. You may as well give your opinion on brain surgery compared to piloting an F-15 or something it's just as valid and less prone to come under scrutiny on this site at least.
Does fixin' F-16's count? (...har har...sorry, couldnt' resist)
From my armchair, my non bad ass wonders:
Has anyone repeated Dog Eat Dog at the S-Curves in Big Cottonwood?
How 'bout a ground up on site ascent of Sheer Lunacy (straight up, not jog right) in Zion? Free climb of Space Shot or Touchstone in Zion?
Enquiring mountaineers want to know...(stirrups and jumars for me)...
Brian in SLC
|
|
|
|
|
photon
May 20, 2003, 3:56 PM
Post #13 of 72
(5825 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 31, 2002
Posts: 543
|
w6... I did list some of the hardest climbs in Utah and tried to make a point which obviously was lost on you. Please do what you want with your climbing pro and your imagination, I'll use my gear for climbing rocks.
"Does fixin' F-16's count? (...har har...sorry, couldnt' resist)"
only if you try to relate it to something you have no idea about.
|
|
|
|
|
hasbeen
May 20, 2003, 5:17 PM
Post #14 of 72
(5825 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 17, 2003
Posts: 543
|
I guess the word "hard" is just too subjective but, really, it must mean the most physically challenging route. I know this isn't fashionable with the "mountaineers" but the best climbers sport climb really friggin' hard. I mean, name anyone that does hard stuff in the mountains, Potter, Thaw, Hill, Destiveville, Yuji, Hubers, Holding, Vickers, Dunne, Glowacz, Gerhson... on and on and on. All of those people sport climb like mad. They may not redpoint the hardest routes (though some of 'em have), but they're right there. They certainly never use any lame rational like, "I'd never clip a bolt", which is just someone's excuse to be lazy and not train or ever really push themselves. Good climbers like to test their limits, no matter what the terrain. Since only a lunatic would push safety limits on a daily basis, every world class climber I've ever met or climbed with will pretty much climb anything, anytime, and don't care whether they lead, toprope, clip bolts, or dicker with crap gear, as long as they are going up.
Think Lynn Hill's pretty tough? She once said to me (when I was trying to use rational to be lazy, like saving something to lead), "never turn down an open toprope."
As for Beyers' routes, have any of you people ever done any hard aid climbing? I mean, it's friggin' easy physically. Christ, anyone can hook a little edge and walk up some ets. I've copperhead "bouldered" and stood on some insane placements. Is it hard? No. It hardly feels like climbing at all. When something blows you don't even feel like you'll fall. You're just standing like and Ping, you're off. What this is, for certain, is scary. Like Mr. Way once said in the Mountain Room, "I've never been so bored and so scared in all my life. Every second I though I was gonna die but I was so bored I didn't care." Hard aid takes some engineering skill and a cool head. Is this "hard"? I guess. Though I'll bet the hardest aid pitches ever will be put up by someone on the verge on sanity, not the "best" climber. After all, Eric Cohl, who's done some of the hardest, did em all with two fat boy Old English cans duct taped to his harness, with the cry of "hard aid is too scary to do sober!" Personally, I don't think this is what the posed question was looking for as an answer.
|
|
|
|
|
billburning
May 20, 2003, 6:09 PM
Post #15 of 72
(5825 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 28, 2002
Posts: 239
|
In reply to: As for Beyers' routes, have any of you people ever done any hard aid climbing? I mean, it's friggin' easy physically. Christ, anyone can hook a little edge and walk up some ets. I've copperhead "bouldered" and stood on some insane placements. Is it hard? No. It hardly feels like climbing at all.
Wow. And you know Lynn Hill? You are SOOOOOOO fucking cool.
|
|
|
|
|
hasbeen
May 20, 2003, 6:53 PM
Post #16 of 72
(5825 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 17, 2003
Posts: 543
|
It's not exactly the NFL we're talking about. The climbing community is a tiny little world. Climb long enough and you're likely to meet just about everyone you've ever read about.
A surfing friend of mine was perusing a climbing mag and read something in an interview where someone was complaining about young climbers that climbed only for fame and glory. He said something like,
"Is this a joke? Someone who would take up climbing as a means of becoming famous would have to be the most misguided person on the planet."
This was a while ago but last I heard, Chris Sharma wasn't building a mansion in Bel Air. What we do is the ultimate sport of passion (except maybe freediving).
But, hey, you live in Durango. You must know Bob Roll. Now THAT would be COOL.
|
|
|
|
|
on_sight_man
May 20, 2003, 7:20 PM
Post #17 of 72
(5825 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 11, 2002
Posts: 628
|
So far? Battle of the Bulge (didn't send).
Oh, you meant for ANYONE! I wouldn't know.
|
|
|
|
|
moonshine
May 21, 2003, 12:06 AM
Post #18 of 72
(5825 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 23, 2002
Posts: 71
|
the one you take a lead fall on and snap your spine or crush your skull or that rips your testicles off.
or if your a petite woman with extra small hands, free solo supercrack.
or belaying at maple canyon when someone pulls a large cobble free and drops in on your un helmeted head.
or the one you take your newbie girlfriend on and never see her again.
all of these rate high in difficulty.
|
|
|
|
|
fieldmouse
May 21, 2003, 12:12 AM
Post #19 of 72
(5825 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 25, 2002
Posts: 404
|
the hardest route i ever did in utah was the long walk to my car from the brewpub in moab, realizing I just spent my last 30 bucks and was even more sober than when I started drinking there.
|
|
|
|
|
dlintz
May 21, 2003, 2:00 AM
Post #20 of 72
(5825 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 9, 2002
Posts: 1982
|
fieldmouse wrote:
In reply to: the hardest route i ever did in utah was the long walk to my car from the brewpub in moab, realizing I just spent my last 30 bucks and was even more sober than when I started drinking there.
Amen brotha!
|
|
|
|
|
billburning
May 21, 2003, 3:09 AM
Post #21 of 72
(5825 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 28, 2002
Posts: 239
|
In reply to: Since none of you "bad ass" armchair mountaineers has even the faintest idea of what it takes to climb 5.11, let alone 5.14, your basesless comparisons are humorous and revealing. You may as well give your opinion on brain surgery compared to piloting an F-15 or something it's just as valid and less prone to come under scrutiny on this site at least.
That's hilarious because I do climb 5.11 cracks and I have aided plenty of hard desert mank. Your assumptions are both humorous and revealing. Dick. Oh and photon, you live in Kansas and climb at Wild Iowa, the grid bolted home of the z-clip and the most inflated grades anywhere. When I road trip out east this summer I'm stopping by so I can onsite my first "5.12d". Now that's funny.
|
|
|
|
|
socalbolter
May 21, 2003, 4:00 AM
Post #22 of 72
(5825 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 27, 2002
Posts: 796
|
although i've enjoyed reading this thread as it progressively become less and less recognizable as a response to the original query, and became more of the all too familiar bashing contest, i still think that it might have taken an interesting turn without directly meaning to.
therefore, i propose a new question:
in each of the different disciplines (sport, trad, aid, bouldering, ice, mixed, etc.) what would be the most difficult ascent?
although i'm mainly a sport climber these days, i can't help but appreciate the top efforts of the other styles. i'm hoping that i am not in the minority on this.
|
|
|
|
|
k9rocko
May 21, 2003, 4:23 AM
Post #23 of 72
(5825 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 12, 2002
Posts: 195
|
The hardest route in Utah is the trip to the liquor store. I give that one 5.13R. Yeah... laugh it up you 5.14 climbers with 12 QD's. Lets see if you can make it in, and out with 12 of something I would be interested in drinking. No Miller for me, try something with an EtOH content suited for adults.....
Seriously, I hope you find your hardest route. Meanwhile I will focus on stuff I can actually climb. Somthing in the 5.2, 5.3 class....
peace...
|
|
|
|
|
rockprodigy
May 21, 2003, 4:27 AM
Post #24 of 72
(5825 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 10, 2002
Posts: 1540
|
Wow, now this thread's gettin' good.
I think the best way to determine "what style is the hardest", is to estimate the chances of something being repeated.
If Steve House does some sick alpine route, there's probably another climber in the world who could repeat it, given good conditions and the desire. However, there just aren't that many alpinists pushing those limits, and those that are would rather do their own new routes, than repeat others.
That goes for all the sick aid routes, or obscure trad routes. Heck, I've done 5.11 trad routes in Ogden that haven't been repeated, that doesn't mean they're the hardest routes in the state, it's just that nobody wants to climb them, and I don't blame them. The only reason I did 'em was to get the FA.
When it comes to hard sport routes, they get tried more, and it's easier to say, that if you took all the best sport climbers and had them try psychedelic, or I Scream, etc....few of them would be able to send it. Dog Eat Dog, on the other hand, could probably be sent, same with Epitaph, if Huber, or Caldwell, or Hirayama tried it.
If you look at it like that, I think the hardest sport routes are usually "the hardest route".
Don't get me wrong, I climb trad, alpine, ice, etc. more than anyone I know, but I sport climb too (as hasbeen said, it's good training) and I respect the hardest sport routes and climbers.
|
|
|
|
|
stickclipper
May 21, 2003, 4:36 AM
Post #25 of 72
(5825 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 3, 2003
Posts: 95
|
the hardest route is Beyer's. A6. Any idea what that means? Takes a helluva more than walkin up ets.
|
|
|
|
|
rockprodigy
May 21, 2003, 5:02 AM
Post #26 of 72
(4609 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 10, 2002
Posts: 1540
|
How can you rate something A6 if you walked away from it!? How do you know a placement is "bodyweight only" unless you fall on it? Then if you do, and you don't die, it's not "bodyweight only".
He's free to rate stuff as hard as he wants, but aid climbing is impossible to verify...the route changes with each ascent, so why not rate something A6? A little humility would be more impressive....
|
|
|
|
|
socalbolter
May 21, 2003, 5:02 AM
Post #27 of 72
(4609 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 27, 2002
Posts: 796
|
as for beyer's A6, i'm curious as to the public opinion on this one.
the last published reporting that i remember about this route ("intifada") was that it was something of an eliminate, with the route following thin features that were often times within feet of A3 cracks and seams. i seem to remember richard jensen repeating it (?) by following the easier options on the line and rating it significantly easier.
i've done my fair share of aid and wall climbing and respect beyer's ascent. if he chose to test his mettle by selecting and limiting himself to the hardest string of features possible on the route, then his ascent may very well be A6.
the fact that someone else then climbed the same section of rock by a string of features offering the line of weakness up the tower does not negate that. i am curious however as to how this route is currently referred (A6 or easier)?
calling all wall and aid climbers (whether of the armchair or reality variety), please chime in.
|
|
|
|
|
addiroids
May 21, 2003, 5:53 AM
Post #28 of 72
(4609 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 11, 2001
Posts: 1046
|
Well this just goes to show that given any argument, limp wristed sport climbers from the midwest (or anywhere for that matter) cannot win an argument with a 40 year old, hairy, 200 pound neanderthal who has beaten his brain, body and soul to within an inch of death, fried his mind on every kind of drug imaginable, and still has the intellectual fortitude to win this argument.
Or is it because when we are comparing some loud chosspile dynamited freeway wall to beautiful mud towers that the climbing just speaks for itself??
I think Latitudes could go up there too. Put up in 1996 (probably have some history wrong here), 8 or so pitches of A4+, took like 8 days for the FA and repeated by Ammon and Brian in 18 hours. Okay so Beyer's routes are probably harder, just trying to give some props to my buddy Ammon.
TRADitionally yours,
Cali Dirtbag - who believes any beer that is 3.2 EtOH can not call itself beer. Especially beer not worth drinking after epic-ing in the Fishers.
|
|
|
|
|
tradmanclimbs
May 21, 2003, 2:44 PM
Post #29 of 72
(4609 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 24, 2003
Posts: 2599
|
Photon obviously has some insecurity issues. I re read the post and it was totaly civil and had a touch of humor going and then photon came on the scene and tried to prove what an insecure antagonnistic moron he is. By the way Lyn Hill was a trad climber longbefore spurt climbing hit the scene here in the states. As for the hardest climb goes, it would be interesting to talk to some of the guys that are world class sport and trad climbers and see their take on the subject. Does Alex huber feel that a 100 ft 15a is harder than his 1500 ft 13d trad climb? as far as utah goes I honestly feel that those sandy chimneys are way harder and scarier than any sport climbs I have done but I am from the east and get totaly spanked every time i go out there. Granted it is diferent styles of climbing. I solo aid bolted a 5.12 sport climb and I can't free climb it past the 3rd bolt so free climbing is definatly harder yet no one would be climbing it period if I didn't go up there and put the jewlrey in place. I watched a kid work the rt the other day and was impressed by the moves he was makeing that I doubt I could ever do. I took him on his first multi pitch yesterday and he had to grab gear on a 5.8 move 300 ft of the deck so I guess it's all relitive.
|
|
|
|
|
photonic
May 21, 2003, 3:22 PM
Post #30 of 72
(4609 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 21, 2003
Posts: 1
|
In reply to: Photon obviously has some insecurity issues. I re read the post and it was totaly civil and had a touch of humor going and then photon came on the scene and tried to prove what an insecure antagonnistic moron he is.
In reply to: Since none of you "bad ass" armchair mountaineers has even the faintest idea of what it takes to climb 5.11, let alone 5.14, your basesless comparisons are humorous and revealing. You may as well give your opinion on brain surgery compared to piloting an F-15 or something it's just as valid and less prone to come under scrutiny on this site at least. I'm assuming the person who started this thread was wandering what the hardest free climbing rock route in Utah was, not who the biggest idiot on this site was? I agree with the lazy boyz/girlz though, generally an impossible question to answer. Hardest crack climb- maybe it is Dean's "new" climb (which I believe was "worked" in a sport climbing fashion over many tries over several years to be able to finally do it.) Obviously there are a ton of hard crack's in S. Utah. I can guarantee you though that Dean will never be able to (or want to) send the hardest sport routes in Utah. So that nullifies his climb, right? (armchair mountaineers logic sucks, no?) Hardest sport route- Take your pick Psychedelic, Ice Scream or Nec Evil, (no AZ climbers had really anything to do with the VRG, so it's a Utah crag imo) Teach Dave how to use a cam he could probably send most any crack in Utah within a month or so, like Sharma and every other good sport climber who cared to dabble. That's a hard pill to swallow isn't it "trad" dudes! Probably the greatest day of trad climbing ever, The Nose free, was done by a woman sport climber! Ha ha ha ha that is rich! oh yeah right behind her, Yuji, Huber bros, Tommy Caldwell, (all card carrying die-hard "sport climbers"), Well, actually, they are just pure climbers who don't let training and close mindedness get in their way. so the answer is, climb it all or you won't be able to have as much fun
In reply to: w6... I did list some of the hardest climbs in Utah and tried to make a point which obviously was lost on you. Please do what you want with your climbing pro and your imagination, I'll use my gear for climbing rocks. "Does fixin' F-16's count? (...har har...sorry, couldnt' resist)" only if you try to relate it to something you have no idea about.
just for prosperity
photon likes to open the mouth then edit
i am here to keep things straight
yours truly
|
|
|
|
|
photon
May 21, 2003, 4:11 PM
Post #31 of 72
(4609 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 31, 2002
Posts: 543
|
"just for prosperity
photon likes to open the mouth then edit
i am here to keep things straight "
like anyone really gives a crap gumby.
Shouldn't you be inviting some
high school kids over to your house to get drunk with you
or something?
|
|
|
|
|
wc
May 21, 2003, 4:35 PM
Post #32 of 72
(4609 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 20, 2003
Posts: 176
|
In reply to: i am pretty sure that the hardest route in utah is i scream in hell cave, american fork canyon. it is rated 5.14c, and has only had three ascents that i know of. boone speed, a hard ass from salt lake, i donīt remember his name, and dave grahm, i am not sure if sharma has done it. also there is a project that some say sill go at 5.15 in pipe dream cave, maple canyon, its called dreamtime extension, but i think that it will go at like 14c or easier. hope this helps.
Let's define "hard". If by hard you mean finger wrecking crimps on an overhanging face that favors 100 lb, rail thin mutants with sick finger strength then I suppose iscream would be the hardest.
I will bet money Speed, Grahm, and Roth couldn't touch certain 14's in the state (even some 13's) because the routes just wouldn't fit them. I remember seeing Roth bouldering in the gym when he was pretty young. He was pulling on stuff others couldn't touch (including Speed, Jeffery, etc) and it wasn't hard for him. He warmed up on panel features, for HAND HOLDS. At that time he was far from being a good climber, he could just pull really hard on really small holds. Of course he couldn't touch Steven's sloper problems, but neither could Sharma.
As the labs turn out more and more mutants we will see a shift in what people think is hard. I will bet those guys would have a harder time sending the 5.13 cracks of yesteryear than they would "the hardest" routes of today. But why would they subject themselves to such pain you ask? The same is being said for the grim crimping routes of today. Soon all "the hardest" routes (and hardest climbers) will be defined by simple pulling on perfectly textured slopers with no tweak potential, all set to techno music in a simulated climbing environment.
My suggestion, if you are a sport climber and you want "the hardest" routes go try some desert cracks. If you are Steve Petro and have spent your life doing cracks because that is the only kind of climbing you can do, try some overhanging crimper routes. (Sorry Steve, I just find if funny when people send 5.14 crack and flail all over 5.11 sport and vice versa. Especially when they are an egotistical dickhead at the crags).
Does anyone know if "No Way Jose" has seen a second? I bet that would rank pretty high on the list of hardest routes for most people. I believe the ever humble Jose gave it 5.13 because he claimed he couldn't climb 5.14. Time will tell I guess. :mrgreen:
|
|
|
|
|
hasbeen
May 21, 2003, 5:18 PM
Post #33 of 72
(4609 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 17, 2003
Posts: 543
|
Since A5, by modern definition (notice lack of A5 in the Valley in new ratings), means that if you fall you'll die, what could A6 possibly mean, eternal damnation? Life in purgatory? Perhaps you don't get to die if you fail but are forced to walk the earth with the undead. Man, I don't know what kind of deal Beyer struck up with El Mephisto for this one but it sounds pretty hard to me.
And, by the way, if anyone does manage to second it I suggest we burn em at a stake, pronto. We certainly don't want those people loose in society. I mean, you've all seen The Omen, right?
|
|
|
|
|
stickclipper
May 21, 2003, 6:50 PM
Post #34 of 72
(4609 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 3, 2003
Posts: 95
|
In reply to: How can you rate something A6 if you walked away from it!? How do you know a placement is "bodyweight only" unless you fall on it? Then if you do, and you don't die, it's not "bodyweight only". He's free to rate stuff as hard as he wants, but aid climbing is impossible to verify...the route changes with each ascent, so why not rate something A6? A little humility would be more impressive....
beyer has climbed multiple A5's. Rating something A6 is certainly not about ego. His 5.10 A6 route was listed in the recent Seven Summits issue of Climbing as one of the seven "hardest" in the lower 48. Tim Wegner repeated it (solo, like Beyer, since having a belayer is pointless since there are no belays!) and confirmed it. There are only a couple A6's in the world. From the little I know on Beyer, he is unbelievable.
And as for knowing whether or not a piece is body weight only... well... you can be pretty damn sure when a something will or won't hold a fall.
|
|
|
|
|
stickclipper
May 21, 2003, 6:54 PM
Post #35 of 72
(4609 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 3, 2003
Posts: 95
|
In reply to: Since A5, by modern definition (notice lack of A5 in the Valley in new ratings), means that if you fall you'll die, what could A6 possibly mean, eternal damnation? Life in purgatory? Perhaps you don't get to die if you fail but are forced to walk the earth with the undead. Man, I don't know what kind of deal Beyer struck up with El Mephisto for this one but it sounds pretty hard to me. And, by the way, if anyone does manage to second it I suggest we burn em at a stake, pronto. We certainly don't want those people loose in society. I mean, you've all seen The Omen, right?
As stated, Tim did second it. Secondly, A5 is body weight placement for an entire pitch, but with a good belay (meaning a leader fall at the top of an A5 pitch is looking at 300+ feet). Above A5 was theoretical until recently (not sure when first one was done), but it is defined as A5 (bodyweight) placements all the way up, but with bad anchors - if you fall, you fall to the ground.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
stickclipper
May 21, 2003, 7:25 PM
Post #37 of 72
(4609 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 3, 2003
Posts: 95
|
Thanks - interesting page here. And I just saw another that said Wagner found "Dead Man's Party" (a grade 6, 5.9, A5 beyer route on Echo Tower) to be more difficult than Intifada. And Wagner actually believes that in the current era, there is no A6. So it's a very debatable topic. Especially considering the "1/4 holes" put in on Intifada, something I wasn't aware of. So who knows.
|
|
|
|
|
stickclipper
May 21, 2003, 7:36 PM
Post #38 of 72
(4609 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 3, 2003
Posts: 95
|
http://www.planetfear.com/climbing/highmountainmag/mountaininfo/1996-1998/Infoct98.html
|
|
|
|
|
rockprodigy
May 21, 2003, 8:23 PM
Post #39 of 72
(4609 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 10, 2002
Posts: 1540
|
You said:
In reply to: Tim Wegner(sic) repeated it...
But I already said:
In reply to: I think the best way to determine "what style is the hardest", is to estimate the chances of something being repeated
So Intifada's already been repeated?! Why are we even discussing it as possibly the hardest route?
Psychedelic hasn't been repeated, and it HAS been tried by good climbers.
In reply to: And Wagner actually believes that in the current era, there is no A6.
OK, admit you were wrong, and I was right...
haha, just kidding, I already know I'm right.
|
|
|
|
|
hasbeen
May 21, 2003, 8:23 PM
Post #40 of 72
(4609 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 17, 2003
Posts: 543
|
Tim Wegner repeated it (solo, like Beyer, since having a belayer is pointless since there are no belays!) and confirmed it. There are only a couple A6's in the world. From the little I know on Beyer, he is unbelievable.
And as for knowing whether or not a piece is body weight only... well... you can be pretty damn sure when a something will or won't hold a fall.
Ummm, maybe you're not exactly clear on how this works. They both set up belays and could fall off (well, maybe, but at least they assumed they could). When you solo, you rap the pitch and clean your gear.
They way you test whether or not a piece will hold is to bounce test it like mad. You really never know exactly when something will or will not hold. Hooks you don't bounce test but it's common to drill placements (but no A5 if you do). Anyway, I've had hooks actually hold leader falls from the placement above. They aren't supposed to, but they have. So you just never know.
A6 not egotistical, gimme a friggin' break!? It's ridiculously presumptuous to make that claim, especially if you haven't repeated most of the hardest pitches in the world (he hasn't). Plus, he drilled the crap out of the route, so he must REALLY assume a superior drilling techniques (1/4"). C'mon, it's insane. Let me repeat something, this isn't really HARD. Scary? Hell yeah. I've climbed in the Fisher's and it's crazy bad rock (or dirt), and I even kinda like bad rock. But it's really bad. Still, to drill up something and then say it's some sort of world standard shows and inferiority complex that's beyond compare. I guarantee you that someone could ascend one of these routes without drilling anything. Sure, they might die--probably would even. But if you can do one non-drilled placement you can do a hundred (which scares me even to write). But it is possible. Once the drill is out, you're cheating--or showing good sense given the area--but you're not creating a world standard route in this day and age, I assure you.
|
|
|
|
|
wc
May 21, 2003, 8:28 PM
Post #41 of 72
(4609 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 20, 2003
Posts: 176
|
In reply to: As stated, Tim did second it. Secondly, A5 is body weight placement for an entire pitch, but with a good belay (meaning a leader fall at the top of an A5 pitch is looking at 300+ feet). Above A5 was theoretical until recently (not sure when first one was done), but it is defined as A5 (bodyweight) placements all the way up, but with bad anchors - if you fall, you fall to the ground.
This goes beyond my comprehension.
1) All the placements I ever make could hold bodyweight so are they bodyweight placements? Do I climb A5? Are you trying to tell me that aid climbers don't test the placements to some degree? If so they are by definition slightly more than bodyweight placements, dropping the rating.
2) The concept of one hand clapping is also theoretical, as is the sound of a tree falling in the forest with nobody around to hear it, as is your assumption that all the placements, including the anchors, will fail given a fall. I for one say that a fall at the end of every A5 and A6 pitch is mandatory to justify the rating.
"Aid climbing is neither."
|
|
|
|
|
atg200
May 21, 2003, 8:55 PM
Post #42 of 72
(4609 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 27, 2001
Posts: 4317
|
uhh, what hasbeen?
beyer has repeated plenty of hard routes. soloing reticent wall on el cap comes to mind. his routes are plenty hard if somewhat ethically tainted by manufactured head placements or whatever. and plenty of yosemite climbers trench heads or drill long stretches of bathook holes - it happens everywhere.
aid climbing ratings are totally goofy. beyer has a very carefully thought out system for rating aid climbs, but he is the only one who uses it so those ratings aren't too relevant to the rest of us. still, they are more useful than the guys calling everything they do A2 no matter how hard it is.
and the rock in the fishers really isn't that bad. some of the pitches i've done there are really quite solid, and phantom sprint on echo tower is beautiful, solid, sustained, and completely natural. the rock is bullet with a coating of mud over the top, and it doesn't compare with the pegmatite in the black canyon, the truly bad rock on the mystery towers, or even entrada sandstone in my opinion.
many of these fisher tower routes are not going up without drilling, period. there just aren't very many really natural lines there since continuous crack systems are so rare. is it better to have endless ladders of bolt mank like colorado ridge on the kingfisher or the north chimney on echo tower, or trench heads and other wierdness like on intifada or world's end? i've not done any beyer routes in the fishers aside from phantom sprint which is unusual, so i'm not really qualified to say one way or the other just yet.
|
|
|
|
|
stickclipper
May 21, 2003, 8:56 PM
Post #43 of 72
(4609 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 3, 2003
Posts: 95
|
[quote="hasbeen"][
Ummm, maybe you're not exactly clear on how this works. They both set up belays and could fall off (well, maybe, but at least they assumed they could). When you solo, you rap the pitch and clean your gear.
apologies. i wasn't clear - by saying there weren't belays, i simply meant there weren't "bomber" belays in the traditional multi pitch sense and that risking a belayers life in such a situation would be rather pointless. however, based on the article that someone sent out, it seems that there were good belays on Beyer's stuff, so it's a moot point.
and as for breaking out the drill bit, I am in total agreement - it is crossing the line. That doesn't take away, however, from the fact that many of Beyer's routes are Extremely serious.
|
|
|
|
|
stickclipper
May 21, 2003, 9:00 PM
Post #44 of 72
(4609 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 3, 2003
Posts: 95
|
Clarified - crossing the line in the sense that, with a drill bit, I don't think you can claim the routes to be of the highest level of danger (the characteristic with which hard aid often garners its fame).
|
|
|
|
|
bvb
May 28, 2003, 8:55 PM
Post #45 of 72
(4609 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 3, 2003
Posts: 954
|
i didn't read all the way through this thread, but I assume at some point it was mentioned that Tim's last name is Wagner, not "Wegner"?
|
|
|
|
|
brianinslc
May 28, 2003, 9:08 PM
Post #46 of 72
(4609 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 13, 2002
Posts: 1500
|
In reply to: i didn't read all the way through this thread, but I assume at some point it was mentioned that Tim's last name is Wagner, not "Wegner"?
I think its actually, "Schwagner" and he's a skateboarder, not a climber.
Har har.
35 footer onto a tied off knifeblade...? Eeek...
Brian in SLC
|
|
|
|
|
joens
May 28, 2003, 10:16 PM
Post #47 of 72
(4609 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 21, 2003
Posts: 43
|
by far the hardest route in utah is I-15 from Provo to SLC worst drivers I ever saw .Especially when all the construction was going on before the olympics. :lol: :lol:
Joens
|
|
|
|
|
pbjosh
May 28, 2003, 11:41 PM
Post #48 of 72
(4609 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 22, 2002
Posts: 1518
|
In reply to: Tim Wegner repeated it (solo, like Beyer, since having a belayer is pointless since there are no belays!) and confirmed it.
Indeed, Tim Wagner did repeat Intifada and confirmed that it was a very difficult line and the Jim Beyer had picked a beautiful line. He also said that A5 was even perhaps just a theoretical grade and called it A4 or A4+, and said that if you belayed in different spots (which he did), the belays were solid.
josh
|
|
|
|
|
alpinestylist
Jun 1, 2003, 6:36 PM
Post #49 of 72
(4609 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Feb 22, 2002
Posts: 193
|
So most of you seem very uneducated about these things. Not that I am, but I have some experience with some of these things.
I will never climb 5.14.
I have chased Jim Beyer for years and climbed a lot of his routes.
He uses his own rating system, not the "modern" numbers. Once you get used to it I find it way more accurate in telling you what you are going to encounter than other peoples systems. Oh yeah, he uses ABCD too.
Numbers are nothing...
Climbing the steepest ladder with the smallest holds may be physically taxing, but does not call upon any other skills a well rounded climber needs.
The kid from Kansas flipping cracks me up. Have fun at the Kansas cliff club, and leave the deliberation of A6 death falls to people that live it.
|
|
|
|
|
photon
Jun 2, 2003, 6:49 PM
Post #50 of 72
(4609 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 31, 2002
Posts: 543
|
This is the classic I think and it even resurrects a stupid dead thread
kudos
"So most of you seem very uneducated about these things. Not that I am, but I have some experience with some of these things.
I will never climb 5.14. "
Exactly since you have no idea what is involved to free climb rocks at this level, comparing it something else is moot
"Climbing the steepest ladder with the smallest holds may be physically taxing, but does not call upon any other skills a well rounded climber needs. "
no one climbs ladders with small holds for starters and again how the f%^& do you know what is required?
"The kid from Kansas flipping cracks me up. Have fun at the Kansas cliff club, and leave the deliberation of A6 death falls to people that live it."
Does anyone live in Kansas that has posted to this thread? Anyway , I'll leave you to your couch and your A6 death fall "deliberation"-- you got a tall couch!
|
|
|
|
|
atg200
Jun 2, 2003, 6:55 PM
Post #51 of 72
(4619 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 27, 2001
Posts: 4317
|
change your profile if you don't want people to assume you are from kansas photon. alpinestylist knows what he is talking about when talking about hard climbing - go repeat his climbs in the black canyon and see what you think. it is so easy to slag people when you never say anything positive or useful, and hide behind a wall of bitterness.
|
|
|
|
|
tradmanclimbs
Jun 2, 2003, 7:21 PM
Post #52 of 72
(4619 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 24, 2003
Posts: 2599
|
This post has gotten so far off track it is basicly pointless. I was under the impression that the original question was refering to free climbs. I personaly belive that some of the long involved tower routs that are free or mostly free are probably harder that a short extremly hard sport rt. A long climb with say 5.13 crack 10+ scary chimny maby even a short section of A4 with a final pitch of hard free climbing would be far harder than a 60 ft 5.14 spurt climb. I do spurt climb as well as trad and aid . not great at any of them but do it a lot and love it all. I have only climbed in utah about 5 or 6 times, maby about 20 days over the years but am very impressed with the dificulty of the cracks and chimneys.
|
|
|
|
|
photon
Jun 2, 2003, 7:24 PM
Post #53 of 72
(4619 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 31, 2002
Posts: 543
|
change your profile if you don't want people to assume you are from kansas photon.
its broken
"alpinestylist knows what he is talking about when talking about hard climbing - go repeat his climbs in the black canyon and see what you think."
i don't think I'll ever climb in that choss pit but thanks for offering.
NO amount of scary 5.10- 5.11 ( or 5.12 but I doubt alpinestylist climbs that hard) climbing will prepair you for hard sport climbing. And I've got plenty of climbs for your hardman too--
"it is so easy to slag people when you never say anything positive or useful, and hide behind a wall of bitterness."
even easier when people like yourself et al, start said slag, and can't take
their own medicine--
|
|
|
|
|
bvb
Jun 2, 2003, 7:41 PM
Post #54 of 72
(4619 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 3, 2003
Posts: 954
|
Way Back When, Photon wrote:
"That's a hard pill to swallow isn't it "trad" dudes! Probably the greatest day of trad climbing ever, The Nose free, was done by a woman sport climber! Ha ha ha ha that is rich!"
No offense photon, but Lynn Hill does not consider herself a sport climber -- her roots are in "traditional" climbing (what a maeaningless phrase), and her heart and soul remain rooted in traditional, gear protected climbing -- read her book, or ask her yourself.
The guy she freed the nose with is one of my best and oldest freinds. Like Lynn, he has a strong background in steep bolt-protected face climbing (er, excuse me, "sport" climbing) and he considers himself an all-rounder -- sport climber, crack master, alpine climber, surfer, skateboarder, father, husband, etc.
If you've got a point to make, then by all means do so. But if you're going to drag Lynn Hill into your arguement, at least do your homework.
|
|
|
|
|
photon
Jun 2, 2003, 8:06 PM
Post #55 of 72
(4619 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 31, 2002
Posts: 543
|
"No offense photon, but Lynn Hill does not consider herself a sport climber -- her roots are in "traditional" climbing (what a maeaningless phrase), and her heart and soul remain rooted in traditional, gear protected climbing -- read her book, or ask her yourself. "
I talked to her, she told me and hundreds other that she trained almost exlusively in Ceuse France to free climb the Nose. I realize I said she was a sport climber, and she is, I guess since she free climbed the Nose that implies she is a trad climber too? Most of her most well known achievements are "sport climbing" related. Comps, first woman to climb 5.14, etc...
he considers himself an all-rounder
"thank god"
You are just re-iterating what I've already said, I don't think you'll hear Lynn saying a scary 5.11 she did was harder than a 5.14 she did though,
she's too wise I think and since she is good at both "trad" and "sport" (unlike many of the people that frequent this site) doesn't feel the need to bad mouth one or the other.
|
|
|
|
|
alpinestylist
Jun 2, 2003, 8:19 PM
Post #56 of 72
(4619 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Feb 22, 2002
Posts: 193
|
Photon...
you swarthy little punter. What a fool you are my friend. While I don't feel the need to print my tick list on the internet ,I am physically injured and left with nothing else to do but type...
I guess without being too much of a jerk I can't just outright diss you for spending so much of your vitality on the blue taped TR gym route.
Dissing the Black Canyon displays a healthy lack of knowledge of American rock climbing history...old and current.
R. Leavitt left his mark there many moons yonder. The boyz there onsight 5.13 these days.
I only chimed in to hopefully engage a discussion about nasty old fat lazy aid climbing.
you seem so locked in your head about many things. There is no way you can climb (sanely) 10,11, or 12!! XXX without being able to climb harder than that with gear.
The steepest ladder with smallest rungs was an analogy. If you read much they'll teach you that in 9th grade.
I don't just aid climb, sport climb, alpine climb, M climb, trad climb or climb out of bed...I just climb. LIke most of all of our heroes.
Maybe we'll meet someday and I can put a TR up for you.
|
|
|
|
|
photon
Jun 2, 2003, 9:00 PM
Post #57 of 72
(4619 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 31, 2002
Posts: 543
|
"you swarthy little punter. What a fool you are my friend. While I don't feel the need to print my tick list on the internet ,I am physically injured and left with nothing else to do but type... "
oh good thanks , i would have taken the time to read your ticklist though, really
"I guess without being too much of a jerk I can't just outright diss you for spending so much of your vitality on the blue taped TR gym route. "
Oh don't wory about not being a jerk it's too late for that anyway.
Next time I'm plugging gear or placing a screw I'll try to remember
your attempt to be cute and clever! Comedy is priceless when one is wigging.
"Dissing the Black Canyon displays a healthy lack of knowledge of American rock climbing history...old and current.
R. Leavitt left his mark there many moons yonder. The boyz there onsight 5.13 these days. "
sweet, yeah, go team choss, I spoke w/ Randy for a couple of hours one night about 5 years ago -Great Guy, the Black Canyon never came up--Colorado never came up for that matter. It was all about steep tall limestone in Cali and Arizona. But I don't need history or badasses to tell me what choss is, if you like climbing there have at it, it's just one less person for you to wait for.
"I only chimed in to hopefully engage a discussion about nasty old fat lazy aid climbing. you seem so locked in your head about many things. There is no way you can climb (sanely) 10,11, or 12!! XXX without being able to climb harder than that with gear. "
I agree, so then you have climbed 5.13-14 then? Sorry, most people on this site haven't climbed 5.8 any style.
"The steepest ladder with smallest rungs was an analogy. If you read much they'll teach you that in 9th grade. "
no kidding a poor one yet revealing at the same time, the 9th grade thing is quite good though, don't hurt your mellon too much thinking up those doozies you're already injured dude--- way fresh more kudos to you
"I don't just aid climb, sport climb, alpine climb, M climb, trad climb or climb out of bed...I just climb. LIke most of all of our heroes. "
so do i sans aid climb (i'm a FREE climber until I can't pull down anymore until then- just more stone for you)
"Maybe we'll meet someday and I can put a TR up for you"
thanks that's nice , everyone needs a rope gun like you
|
|
|
|
|
tradmanclimbs
Jun 2, 2003, 10:30 PM
Post #58 of 72
(4619 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 24, 2003
Posts: 2599
|
here is a question for you photon. what would be harder? free climb the nose in a single push? By that i mean do the pitches in sequence in a day. It would not count to free individual pitches on different attempts. you would have to string them all together like Lyn did. this is a trad rt that has not been repeted ? Free Realization. This is a sport rt that I am not sure if has been repeted? realization is 130 ft long? I am sketchy on some of the details here but am sure that you will fill me in.
|
|
|
|
|
photon
Jun 3, 2003, 1:39 PM
Post #59 of 72
(4619 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 31, 2002
Posts: 543
|
Comparing sport to trad is a waste of time.
Both climbs are monumental achievements.
Regressing further, (but not low enough to compare aid to free climbing)
I would have to say that Sharma has a lot better chance sending the Nose in day than Lynn would ever have of doing even the "easy" 14c part of Realization. Therefore, because Realization is in France and no Mormons are allowed to live there it fails to qualify as Utah's hardest route and because Warren Harding first climbed the Nose with the help of many bottles of wine and profanity (and the Nose ain't in Utah) it also can not ever be referred to as Utah's hardest route.
Hope that clears it up for you
|
|
|
|
|
bvb
Jun 3, 2003, 2:32 PM
Post #60 of 72
(4619 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 3, 2003
Posts: 954
|
In reply to: Way Back When, Photon wrote: "That's a hard pill to swallow isn't it "trad" dudes! Probably the greatest day of trad climbing ever, The Nose free, was done by a woman sport climber! Ha ha ha ha that is rich!" No offense photon, but Lynn Hill does not consider herself a sport climber -- her roots are in "traditional" climbing (what a maeaningless phrase), and her heart and soul remain rooted in traditional, gear protected climbing -- read her book, or ask her yourself. The guy she freed the nose with is one of my best and oldest freinds. Like Lynn, he has a strong background in steep bolt-protected face climbing (er, excuse me, "sport" climbing) and he considers himself an all-rounder -- sport climber, crack master, alpine climber, surfer, skateboarder, father, husband, etc. If you've got a point to make, then by all means do so. But if you're going to drag Lynn Hill into your arguement, at least do your homework.
Agreed, Lynn Hill climbs at Ceuse.
I think you missed the point of my post.
|
|
|
|
|
sidepull
Jun 3, 2003, 3:20 PM
Post #61 of 72
(4619 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 11, 2001
Posts: 2335
|
maybe a little back on topic, . . .
I read in Climbing that Jason Campbell repeated Graham's Psychedelic shortly after the FA and felt that it was more like 13d/14a. However, the route looks sick hard on video.
Are there any other potential 14d's in Utah?
I know there has been a lot of development in less-known areas that has produced some potential 14's.
|
|
|
|
|
tradmanclimbs
Jun 3, 2003, 3:27 PM
Post #62 of 72
(4619 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 24, 2003
Posts: 2599
|
If the nose is so damn easy for sharma why dosen't he just run up there and free it. This post decended into the trad vs sport thing about 4 pages ago so it is a revelant question. I don't know how the aid thing even got in here though, as it is obvious to anyone who has both free climbed and aid climbed that aid clinbing is scary but not hard. The whole reason we resort to aid climbing is because the terrain is too hard for us to free climb. Maby those guys are to old to have discovered adjustable daisies? :roll:
|
|
|
|
|
winkwinklambonini
Jun 7, 2003, 9:33 PM
Post #63 of 72
(4619 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 17, 2002
Posts: 1579
|
In reply to: I would have to say that Sharma has a lot better chance sending the Nose in day than Lynn would ever have of doing even the "easy" 14c part of Realization.
^false^ sharma has NO chance of freeing the nose in a day.....Zero
|
|
|
|
|
photon
Jun 9, 2003, 4:33 PM
Post #64 of 72
(4619 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 31, 2002
Posts: 543
|
"^false^ sharma has NO chance of freeing the nose in a day.....Zero "
Sharma climbed some 5.13 cracks in the valley 2 weeks after learning how to plug gear and jam. That gives him a better chance than most.
don't confuse your ability (lame wad) with Sharma's (rock god)
|
|
|
|
|
alpinestylist
Jun 9, 2003, 7:16 PM
Post #65 of 72
(4619 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Feb 22, 2002
Posts: 193
|
I think someone wants the rock god's wad.
|
|
|
|
|
billburning
Jun 9, 2003, 8:12 PM
Post #66 of 72
(4619 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 28, 2002
Posts: 239
|
It's good to see photon still representing the midwest spraylords, straight outta Kansas...word! The Black Canyon is a choss pile and she climbs at WILD IOWA? HAHAHAHAHA, that's rich! What a douche bag! Seriously, if you are such a badass photon, like I said before I'm driving through Iowa on my way to Chicago around July 5th. I'd love to get slayed on some of your two bolt "5.12's". Anyway, I'm off to Yosemite tomorrow to climb the choss pile that is El Cap. TATA!
|
|
|
|
|
rockprodigy
Jun 9, 2003, 8:13 PM
Post #67 of 72
(4619 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 10, 2002
Posts: 1540
|
In reply to: I read in Climbing that Jason Campbell repeated Graham's Psychedelic shortly after the FA and felt that it was more like 13d/14a. However, the route looks sick hard on video
Do you know which issue it was? I was working on the route right next to it when Boone was trying it, and it looked a helluva lot harder than 13d.
In reply to: ^false^ sharma has NO chance of freeing the nose in a day.....Zero
Let's not confuse not WANTING to climb something with being UNABLE to climb something. I hate Sharma as much as then next guy, but I think if he really cared about climbing (which he doesn't) and he trained for the route like Lynn did, he could probably free the Nose, along with a handful of other people like Rodden, Caldwell, Beziartu, the Hubers, Graham etc..
The cool thing about climbing is that there are so many different styles that appeal to different people. If we were all the same, there would be 1 million climbers lining up to get on Astrodog this Saturday, but fortunately we're different. The handful of people that care about absolute difficulty are sport climbers, because the hardest climbable routes are sport.
Alan Watts was one of the best crack climbers in the world in the early 80's, he put up a 13c/d crack at Smith Rock that was the hardest route in the US for 14 months. He said "there are no hard cracks" right after he single-handedly invented sport climbing in the US. If the crack is big enough to get your fingers in, then it's almost automatically too easy to be considered as a "hardest route".
If trad climbing is so hard, why is it that countless top sport climbers are able to pick it up so quickly? Why don't we see all the top trad climbers (are there any?) jumping on 14d's with ease? ...oh, that's because the top trad climbers are all sport climbers.
Climbers who have freed El Cap (not counting Free Rider or West Face):
Paul Piana (Salathe)
Todd Skinner (Salathe)
Lynn Hill (Nose)
Alex Huber (Salathe, Golden Gate, El Corazon)
Thomas Huber (Salathe, Golden Gate)
Tommy Caldwell (Salathe, Lurking Fear, The Shaft/Muir)
Beth Rodden (Lurking Fear)
Yuji Hirayama (Salathe)
Nick Sagar* (The Shaft/Muir)
*had never trad climbed before El Cap!
Could any of those climbers write "sport climbing is neither" in their profile without being a hypocrit?
|
|
|
|
|
neadamthal
Jun 9, 2003, 8:54 PM
Post #68 of 72
(4619 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 2, 2002
Posts: 245
|
photon - chill out man!
8)
|
|
|
|
|
alpinestylist
Jun 9, 2003, 8:58 PM
Post #69 of 72
(4619 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Feb 22, 2002
Posts: 193
|
I climbed Astroman today, but I jugged the pitches that my partner lead cuz the pack was too heavy to climb free with.\
Did I free Astroman?
Did Skinner or Piana free El Cap?
I have only met Nick Sagar once, nice enough guy. I would be curious to know if they swapped leads on the Muir or Tommy lead most of it? I think Tommy was the gun.
Before I start another flame war I would just like to say that I think every type of climbing helps every other type of climbing. The bouldering helps me hang on longer to place gear. The aid climbing help me know exactly what kind of gear to place. The runout trad stuff helps with high ball topouts, and teh alpine stuff just helps your overall awareness. Everything helps alpinism.
I have friends that climb V11 and I would retire from M climbing if they ever picked up tools cuz it would just be too easy.
Let the slag and schmack fly
If Sharma wanted too, like a plane full of pot smashed into the glowering spot, he would be the first guy up there FREE.
If any rock star chicky really wanted to obsess about Biographie they could clip teh chains.
all about what you psyched on
|
|
|
|
|
rockprodigy
Jun 9, 2003, 9:29 PM
Post #70 of 72
(4619 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 10, 2002
Posts: 1540
|
In reply to: I climbed Astroman today, but I jugged the pitches that my partner lead cuz the pack was too heavy to climb free with.\ Did I free Astroman? Did Skinner or Piana free El Cap? I have only met Nick Sagar once, nice enough guy. I would be curious to know if they swapped leads on the Muir or Tommy lead most of it? I think Tommy was the gun.
What's your point here? Are we now debating the historically evolving definition of free big walls, because, if so, let's not forget that the first "free" ascent of Astroman was also done in "team free" style.
End of Sidebar
My point is that these people are still sport climbers. Remove Skinner, Piana, and Sagar if you want, but it's still a list of sport climbers. They do other stuff as well, but they also sport climb!!
I do all the things you describe, but I still think sport climbing is F--ing hard, and I think the above-named climbers would probably agree. They may disagree on what is hardest, but for me, sport climbing is hardest. I think I have a lot more realistic chance of someday freeing the Salathe Wall, than I have of climbing 14d, but maybe I'm built differently.
|
|
|
|
|
photon
Jun 10, 2003, 2:44 PM
Post #71 of 72
(4619 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 31, 2002
Posts: 543
|
light
|
|
|
|
|
cory
Jun 10, 2003, 2:49 PM
Post #72 of 72
(4619 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Feb 9, 2002
Posts: 40
|
Not to split hairs, but that was a different route, called Breaking the Law. It's not even at the same cliff as Psychadellic, and was originally rated 14b.
|
|
|
|
|
|
