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killclimbz
Jun 30, 2003, 4:18 PM
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The BLM has acquired some new land above the Bank camping area. They are currently having community discussions on what the uses for the land are going to be. This includes singletrack, hiking, and horseback trails. Unfortunately the most vocal group has been the ATV'ers. They want it to become open for off roading exclusively.
There already is a designated off road area down the road from Shelf. If they do succeed in getting the area above the Bank (and by all indications they might) ATV traffic and the such will increase dramatically in the area as the Bank access road is the only way up there.
For those of you who may be wondering exactly where this area is, if you are headed for the Bank or the Darkside from the camping area, as soon as you cross the cow grate it would be the road that veers to the left that leads to this area in question.
Cora Whisenhut is the BLM ranger who picks up fees in the area and gave us the heads up on this. There have been a couple meetings already and climbers have been woefully under represented. Off roaders have been there in force. The next meeting is July 2nd. Please e-mail your opinions of what would be a good use of the area (I'm for the Singletrack & Hiking personally) would be and how the noise would affect your climbing experience there. Or maybe you would like to have the area for off road use. Either way we need to weigh in. Cora's e-mail is cora_whisenhunt@co.blm.gov. Please send her your responses and she will present them at the meeting on Wednesday. If you can show up please do. I'm sure she will be happy to present you with the info on where it is and how to get there.
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alpnclmbr1
Jun 30, 2003, 4:48 PM
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Thanks for the heads up.
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rrrADAM
Jun 30, 2003, 5:04 PM
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Sent an email... Karen and I have climbed there before, and it is unique. There are very few climbing Areas like this, where it is truely a climber friendly area. Only people we saw there were climbers, while camping and on the trails. Very natural, quiet, and clean... It should stay that way.
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tradkelly
Jun 30, 2003, 5:09 PM
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Okay, there is nothing on this on the Colorado BLM website at all, including searching the FirstGov site with "shelf road" or "bank" as terms. I'm going to ask the Co BLM office about this, but if we haven't heard about it maybe it's 'cause it either doesn't exist or we've been specifially excluded by the ORV groups.
Where would one go to find a reference about a public commentary meeting on something like this, other than the website??? Any ideas or thoughts, anyone else heard anything about this?
If anyone comes up with a link or the options package that they typically put out for public discussion, please tell us about it.
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tradkelly
Jun 30, 2003, 5:20 PM
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I've emailed the BLM and the contact given above asking for information on the reported public comment period and meetings, and when I get any information back I'll report on it for everyone to see.
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lemon_boy
Jun 30, 2003, 5:29 PM
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it definitely exists. my ex works for the FS and she was telling me about it the other day. Cora would be a good person to contact and express your opinion to. i think her number or email was listed in the original post. another person who is working pretty hard to try to prevent this is donna murphy. her phone # is 719-275-4633. i've climbed with her sons at shelf for about 15 years, and she works really hard on environmental issues.
the area in question is a great place to hike and has some fun mountain biking also (although the trails get really faint some times). pretty much the entire area around canon city is already over run with motocross cowboys and drunk hicks with guns. it would be pretty nice to have at least a small area where it is fairly quiet and safe from stray bullets.
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killclimbz
Jun 30, 2003, 5:42 PM
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I assure you it does exist. I spent about an hour chatting with Cora Whisenhunt at the Bank campground. I know that this area in question is located above the Bank campground and is not part of the climbing area. The BLM is looking into what they should do with this land. I am sending her an e-mail to get what info I can on the land in question.
What I do know is that off road vehicles are rather noisy and that the access to this area would go right by the campground. I also know that this issue has been flying under the climbers interest radar so to speak and we need to get on top of what is going on with this area.
More info to follow....
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texasclimber
Jun 30, 2003, 5:44 PM
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Email sent. ATVs are fun, but not everywhere. Keep them out!
BTW, when copying the link, be sure not to include that last period; if you do, the email won't send.
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bolder
Jun 30, 2003, 7:27 PM
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Email sent.
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killclimbz
Jun 30, 2003, 7:42 PM
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For anyone who may want to write a letter via snail mail or need an address to pass along to friends here is the address to send it to.
US Department of the Interior
Bureau of Land Management
Royal Gorge Field Office
3170 E. Main Street
Canon City CO 81212
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lachendro
Jun 30, 2003, 7:57 PM
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This issue has me going. I climb shelf all the time and just Sat me and my partners were admiring the silence in the canyon. I'm at work and can't email out but I will when I get home in regards to this issue. I'm totally willing to put forth a strong effort to ensure that the newly acquired area is used for hiking, biking, just something quiet and natural. That's all we need is a bunch of moter heads reving their quads and trucks throughout the canyon. BS! PM me if there's any way I can help besides emailing the address listed.
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watchme
Jun 30, 2003, 9:37 PM
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Email sent. Thanks for the heads up.
Darren
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bakedjake
Jun 30, 2003, 9:42 PM
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email sent
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anykineclimb
Jun 30, 2003, 10:00 PM
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email sent.
Anyone interested in attending of odf the meetings? If theres lots of ATVers, climbers need to get out and be heard also.
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tradkelly
Jun 30, 2003, 10:19 PM
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The next meeting will be Wednesday at the VFW (map to meeting) in Canon City, 933 Sells Avenue, just off of 9th, from 7-9PM. I called down to the BLM office after not receiving any replies via email today, and am (hopefully) waiting for a call back from Dave Walker. The office told me he was the correct person to talk to when asking questions about it... Whoever was at the front desk had the paper in front of him, but it's not anywhere online that I can find yet; he mentioned that they were discussing putting in a shooting range. More info as it becomes available.
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killclimbz
Jun 30, 2003, 10:37 PM
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TK, thanks for getting the info. Unfortunately I will not be able to get down there for the meeting. Hopefully some climbers will get down there to represent. A FREAK'IN SHOOTING RANGE!!! We really need to get organized on this one...
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disgruntledseacucumber
Jun 30, 2003, 10:38 PM
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Thats what makes shelf road so special, just going out to enjoy the peace and quiet. I get really ticked off when I see people litter the trail with there food and trash. ATV'ers would only make it worse. There is enough colorado to go around for everyone, they can go somewhere else. Out of town now, but i'll try to send an email
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tradkelly
Jun 30, 2003, 10:58 PM
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Here's what I got on the phone with Mr. Walker:
This is part of the travel management plan for the Gold Belt Tour development plan. Currently, they have four alternatives, which are not firmly laid out: current use, low, moderate, and high alternatives. After this meeting, the Field Office Manager is hoping to have a consensus on the 'moderate' use plan (about 80% agreement), and will then proceed on an Environmental Assessment, completing on the target date of 15 October 2003; following that, there will be a public review period, although historically these are after-the-fact kind of things where the decisions have already been made.
The moderate alternative sounds as though it recognizes that the area, because of its nature and current uses, requires special needs including the maintenance of quiet and not much motorized traffic, including not introducing a lot of ATV or jeep trails (but some, and not regulated as to level of use except by location). They will discuss the addition somewhere of a shooting range - details next.
There are two other shooting ranges currently located on county lands in the 'Garden Park' area closer to Canon City that are sort-of designated (de-facto designation) already, but they conflict somewhat with other uses, like hiking trails nearby. Safety is a concern for the location of these and a possible future shooting area. The Field Office Manager would apparently like to see an alternative advanced with shooting on adjacent county lands farther down the road from the Bank campground that is in question, for safety and multi-use compatibility. BLM is not supposed to manage 'shooting ranges' on their land, although it is not illegal to fire firearms on most all BLM land, therefore an 'adjacent' site on county lands would be preferable to the land managers.
There are no current documents online about this modification to the management plan, and none immediately forthcoming. There eventually will be, but there are no deadlines. Whomever can go to the meeting, please bring back information and post everything you can objectively for us???
I hope that this helps people to formulate their letters for reading at the meeting - and we need to ensure that someone makes certain that the emails get read, not just received and not heard at the meeting. Canon City is sorta yahoo-central (like most of the southern Front Range, where I am included), and not having our voices heard would be potentially disastrous. No information will follow until after the meeting from me... Good luck. Send your emails, and be detailed!!
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tradkelly
Jun 30, 2003, 11:04 PM
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A user asked me for these contact details for the office in charge of this action. Everything you need should be available on the directories at http://www.blm.gov and http://www.co.blm.gov as well.
Royal Gorge Field Office/Front Range Center BLM/USFS
3170 East Main Street
Cañon City, Colorado 81212
719-269-8500
FAX 719-269-8599
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tradkelly
Jul 1, 2003, 3:05 AM
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Bump. Please, express your opinions to the BLM in email or fax tomorrow to this topic. We'll try to get someone to sponsor/read the letters that come in.
Who plans on attending? Mr. Gill, Bob D'.? I'm not sure of the West Pueblo community or people closer. Anykineclimb? I've reposted to the CoSpgs and Boulder/Front Range community groups, and hope we get some more input and letters.
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tradkelly
Jul 1, 2003, 4:17 PM
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Bump. Is anyone in the community planning on attending the meeting? Please if you have a minute write and email or fax your comments to Cora or the office so that we have some input for the meeting tomorrow! Thanks, and let us know if you've sent something so we'll know whether we have 5 comments or a hundred!
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uncle_big_green
Jul 1, 2003, 4:17 PM
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I sometimes climb there and shot an email to the lady. However, before you all get too exited, I'd like to say that I didn't adopt the "only my use is good" attitude. Climbers should try to work with other user groups.
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lemon_boy
Jul 1, 2003, 5:06 PM
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i'll be going to the meeting. historically, climbers generally get a pretty big beat down at these things because the atv'ers, etc show up in numbers and the climbers are generally too busy cappucino-ing or working their latest sick proj (brah).
i generally agree with uncle_big_green's statement about my use not necessarily being the best use, but in the case of shelf road there are a lot of shooting and moto areas nearby. these are usually easily recognized by the excessive amount of trash laying around. between shelf road and the south platte, over 15 years of climbing i have had bullets whizzing over my head on numerous occasions and i am pretty tired of it. i don't plan on being militant or argumentative, but i plan on voicing my opinion that shelf road should be limited to quiet activities. that being said, leave the boom boxes at home the next time you climb here.
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reno
Jul 1, 2003, 11:26 PM
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I e-mailed Cora, and offered my input. I agree with the comment that we should not adopt an "Only my use is acceptable" attitude. My suggestions to Cora were that we... climbers, ATV'ers, hunters/shooters, etc.... have more group discussion on the issue, and find some way to reach a compromise on the use of the land.
I would like to make it there for the meeting, but since I work tonight from 9pm until 7am, I do not think I can attend.
Will keep an eye on this issue, though.
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rhu
Jul 2, 2003, 12:01 AM
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Message sent. I agree that "my use only" is selfish and said as much, but I would like the usage to be for "my use only." :lol:
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tahquitztwo
Jul 2, 2003, 6:16 AM
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email sent. keep us posted.
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killclimbz
Jul 2, 2003, 2:38 PM
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Don't miss the fact that other user groups such as Mountain bikers and hikers would like to use the land. If ORV's and shooters are up there this is not going to happen. I would rather the land be used for the former uses than the latter.
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killclimbz
Jul 2, 2003, 10:04 PM
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I just received a reply back from Diana Kossnar from the BLM, here is what she had to say about the issue.
"I am Diana Kossnar, the BLM recreation planner for this area (Shelf Road).
First of all, thank you for your interest and comments regarding the Shelf
Road. There does seem to be a little bit of confusion regarding the BLM
planning effort.
We (BLM) are currently in the process of developing a Travel Management
Plan for the entire Gold Belt Tour region (BLM lands between Canon City and
Cripple Creek and highway 115 and highway 9) and yes the Shelf Road is
included in this planning effort. As a result of this plan, we will be
determining and formally designating roads and trails on BLM. This
includes motorized and non-motorized routes.
Most of the E-Mail messages that have gone to Cora (about 30) she is
forwarding on to the Travel Management Planner in charge of this planning
effort. His name is Dave Walker and his E-Mail station is:
Dave_Walker@co.blm.gov .
The comments that we've received will be considered as formal public
comments regarding the Shelf Road area. Some of the comments seem to be
directed toward the newly acquired lands north of the Bank. That's OK,
too. But we are planning and designating roads and trails for the entire
area surrounding the Shelf Road Recreation Area.
The second public meeting for this planning effort is being held tonight,
July 2nd, 2003 in Canon City at 7:00p.m. The location is the VFW hall
located at 933 Sells Avenue. Highway 50 to 9th street, turn south, cross
the Arkansas River and it is the first building on the left or east side of
the road. I am very sorry we couldn't have gotten this information to you
sooner, but Cora's days off are Monday and Tuesday and so she opened her
E-Mail station today and began to read through the messages. I hope you
have contacts in the area who can attend tonight, but if not the public
comment period is open until July 18th. Also all of the maps showing a
range of alternative (which we are showing tonight at the meeting) will be
available at our office for public viewing.
I hope this is helpful. Give me a call if you have any questions. Diana
719-269-8538"
So from now on please send your e-mails to Dave Walker at Dave_Walker@co.blm.gov.
Keep on sending your opinions it is definitely having an effect.
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anykineclimb
Jul 3, 2003, 12:04 AM
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I recieved the same Email.
Looks like our letters are doing some good. keep em coming.
I hope the leatter from BLM helps clear up some issues with individuals here on RC.com
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roninthorne
Jul 5, 2003, 12:58 PM
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In reply to: I hope the leatter from BLM helps clear up some issues with individuals here on RC.com
You mean issues like how the BLM can let everyone know who rides or owns an ATV (people who typically do not speak/respond via email) that there is gonna be a meeting and to show up, but then the same agency turns around and hands the email monitoring (method by which many if not most climbers will respond) to someone who is off work on Monday and Tuesday, thus creating a built-in delay of four crucial days between getting the info to non-ATV interests and registering their response...
Sorry, but this one sounds alot like the Bush administration's typical games to turn the backcountry into an ATV/snowmobile/NRA/oil-and-timber company paradise.
Since we won the war in Iraq, can we have the no-drilling restored in ANWR? Didn't think so....
The BLM...playing games to sell your land to the highest bidder... once they've ruined it with 4WDs, ATVs, strip mines, open range grazing, and powerplant projects...
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rrrADAM
Jul 6, 2003, 3:03 PM
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BUMP !!!
With over 12,000 registered users, we can do better than 30 emails. And with comments being accepted until July 18th, we have time.
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killclimbz
Jul 7, 2003, 10:48 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: I hope the leatter from BLM helps clear up some issues with individuals here on RC.com You mean issues like how the BLM can let everyone know who rides or owns an ATV (people who typically do not speak/respond via email) that there is gonna be a meeting and to show up, but then the same agency turns around and hands the email monitoring (method by which many if not most climbers will respond) to someone who is off work on Monday and Tuesday, thus creating a built-in delay of four crucial days between getting the info to non-ATV interests and registering their response... Sorry, but this one sounds alot like the Bush administration's typical games to turn the backcountry into an ATV/snowmobile/NRA/oil-and-timber company paradise. Since we won the war in Iraq, can we have the no-drilling restored in ANWR? Didn't think so.... The BLM...playing games to sell your land to the highest bidder... once they've ruined it with 4WDs, ATVs, strip mines, open range grazing, and powerplant projects...
I don't see how Cora having a few days off is a Bush adminstration scheme. She has the same days off every week. If it wasn't for her giving me the head's up we would have never known about this issue. In fact she was rather anti bush herself. We should thank her warning people about what was happening. At least we have time to act. The BLM is a government run agency and not everyone within the organization and they do have their mandates. At least at the Canon City office there are people who work there whose interests are not far from our own. Quite frankly I have been very pleased with the stewardship the BLM has given Shelf road and other climbing areas in Colorado. The policies may be different elsewhere, but in Colorado they have been our friends.
BTW, anyone attend the meeting last week? If so please give us an update. I am going to try like hell to show up if they have another one.
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tradkelly
Jul 8, 2003, 11:54 PM
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In reply to: Hello Cora, I would like to express my opinion over the proposed use of the newly acquired BLM land above the Bank camping area. I enjoy hiking and climbing near this area and the influx of ATV'ers would be very disruptive. I would propose that this land be set aside for a less intrusive uses such as hiking or singletrack. The problem with ATV's and other off-road vehicles is that they violate the concept of multiple-use. No one wants to be around these noisy smog machines. When off-road vehicles are allowed in an area it defaults to single use. This is not good usage of public lands. The off-road community already has some land in the Shelf Road area. They do not need any more. Please ensure that my letter is read at the next meeting. Regards, Dr. Greg Tumbush
Here's one more, sent by a climber who's not an RC.c member. July 18th, everyone. Send something simple, take 5 minutes. Dave Walker's email address is on page 2 of this thread. You don't have to take this approach; you don't have to disagree with multiple uses. But, if you don't tell them what you think, they won't know that you think it.
And if it gets you on an activist kick, send another letter to your congressmen and tell 'em you don't like the Fee Demo programs being made more permanent, too. You want somewhere that's not a gym to climb in five years? Take five minutes now and express yourself.
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tradkelly
Jul 16, 2003, 3:11 AM
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Bump. 2 more days to write an email, all.
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tradkelly
Jul 18, 2003, 3:28 AM
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Bump!
Tomorrow is the last day to register an input with the FS on this topic if you have any input. Even if you don't come or climb here - ask yourself, would you care if a bunch of ATVs were buzzing around under your climbs? I know (hope) that the people who read this don't litter or ride offroad, mess up fragile land ('cept maybe below a few key boulders, but that's a different story, not for this thread), but how much do you want to do potentially cleaning up after other users who might not be so concerned about the quiet and pristine as you? I filled a trash bag two weeks ago from the last ORV trail I hiked up towards a climb. Don't generalize this sorta thing, but if it counts towards your writing a quick letter, do it!!!
Later. We've had well over a thousand hits to this thread. It'll be disgraceful if we only get 50 quick emails to Mr. Walker. Please, ya got 5 minutes????
kelly
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epic_ed
Jul 18, 2003, 4:25 AM
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Just tried to send an email to Dave Walker's address and it got bounced back as undeliverable. I ensured there's no typos; no "." at the end of the address (also looks like the poor bastards are using Lotus Notes).
Anyone else have a problem? Alternative email addresses?
Ed
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paganmonkeyboy
Jul 18, 2003, 5:06 AM
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In reply to: Just tried to send an email to Dave Walker's address and it got bounced back as undeliverable. I ensured there's no typos; no "." at the end of the address (also looks like the poor bastards are using Lotus Notes). Anyone else have a problem? Alternative email addresses? Ed
yeah. mine bounced too, I forwarded it to cora with a request to pass it on to Dave.
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epic_ed
Jul 18, 2003, 5:58 AM
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Same here.
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tradkelly
Jul 18, 2003, 6:42 AM
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Notes have been posted that Dave's address is being rejected by email; I don't have an answer to that. Try to email to Cora (cora_whisenhunt@co.blm.gov), the original email address in the thread, and ask that the comments be forwarded until we get a resolution on this question. Cora works in the same (Canon City) office and should be able to forward appropriately.
Thank you for your assistance, all.
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killclimbz
Jul 18, 2003, 9:05 PM
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Please e-mail your comments to Cora. We are running out of time.
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