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thrillseeker05
Aug 13, 2003, 4:34 PM
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Question:
How can Linn Hill be the first woman to do 5.14 when Katie Brown did an onsite 5.14a called Hydrophobia, in Monte Saite, Spain?
Or was Linn Hills send first?
Anyone know?
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dsafanda
Aug 13, 2003, 4:37 PM
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I could be totally wrong but my guess is that Katy Brown was still wearing diapers when Lynn Hill sent her first 5.14.
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troutboy
Aug 13, 2003, 4:53 PM
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Not quite in diapers, but not too far removed either...
1991 Masse Critique, France (first 5.14 climbed by a woman)
TS
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thrillseeker05
Aug 13, 2003, 4:54 PM
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that's what I'm trying to find out. the front page of RC.com says August 1st L.Hill becomes first woman to send 5.14.
kind of missleading.
anyone have the dates on these. plus I dont know if anyone is paying attention or not but Katie Brown did an ONSITE 5.14a
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thrillseeker05
Aug 13, 2003, 4:55 PM
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sweet. thanks for the info. my above post was before I saw your answer. cool enough.
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ikefromla
Aug 13, 2003, 5:05 PM
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mmmmyes.. but katie brown is muuuuuuch more hot.
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thrasher
Aug 13, 2003, 5:45 PM
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I met Lynn Hill and visited with her for a while last year...Granted I ahve only seen Katie in videos but after meeting Lynn in person, I have to say she is an absolute hottie and Katie doesn't hold a candle to her.
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thrillseeker05
Aug 13, 2003, 6:12 PM
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Katie is definitely hot! And to onsite a 5.14a is just the icing on the cake.
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traddad
Aug 13, 2003, 6:40 PM
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I'm with Thrasher. Maybe I'm getting old, but....Experience and wisdom are becoming more and more sexy to me.
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ergophobe
Aug 13, 2003, 7:31 PM
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In reply to: I'm with Thrasher. Maybe I'm getting old, but....Experience and wisdom are becoming more and more sexy to me.
Funny how with women it always seems to get back to their looks or sexuality. One thing I never noticed until a non-climber friend came over and picked up a magazine. His informal impression was that women are much more often depicted from below in a wide stem. Otherwise, often looking straight down at the cleavage.
Maybe every time there's a discussion on whether Dean Potter or Alex Lowe was really the greatest climber in history (the preferred choices of RC.com, dominated as it is by Americans and youth), the women out there can divert the discussion into a close examination of which one is/was hotter and exactly which physical features are best. Is Dean Potter faster than Hans Florine? Who cares, cause one of them just has the cutest little buns. I'm not sayin' which one, though.
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wigglestick
Aug 13, 2003, 7:36 PM
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Dude, Dean is way hotter than Hans.
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the_pirate
Aug 13, 2003, 8:06 PM
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Does Katie Brown still climb? I had heard that she almost died from anorexia brought on by dieting obsessions for competitions.
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traddad
Aug 13, 2003, 8:07 PM
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[quote="ergophobe"]In reply to: I'm with Thrasher. Maybe I'm getting old, but.... Experience and wisdom are becoming more and more sexy to me.
Funny how with women it always seems to get back to their looks or sexuality.
Hmmmm...
Methinks this person missed the point entirely.....
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death
Aug 13, 2003, 8:21 PM
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Pirate, she had Crohn's disease and yes she still climbs, but with a much lower profile.
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epic_ed
Aug 13, 2003, 8:57 PM
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The latest Rock & Ice has a feature about her climbing trip to Hampi with Sharma and ??? can't remember who, but it was a good read.
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on_sight_man
Aug 13, 2003, 8:59 PM
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She's at Western State I believe and boulders a LOT there.
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climber1
Aug 13, 2003, 9:00 PM
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[quote="ergophobe]
Maybe every time there's a discussion on whether Dean Potter or Alex Lowe was really the greatest climber in history (the preferred choices of RC.com, dominated as it is by Americans and youth)
I'll take Peter Croft over Dean Potter regarding one of the greatest American male climbers. I agree that Alex was the other one.
Remember, Peter freesoloed Astroman in 1987. that's fiteen years before Dean.
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jcinco
Aug 13, 2003, 9:37 PM
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In reply to: [ I'll take Peter Croft over Dean Potter regarding one of the greatest American male climbers. I agree that Alex was the other one. Remember, Peter freesoloed Astroman in 1987. that's fiteen years before Dean.
Peter Croft is Canadian.
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climbingbum
Aug 13, 2003, 9:59 PM
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Jcinco, Sh!t you beat me to it.... Gotta love the old school squamish climbers....
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mr.shortround
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Aug 13, 2003, 11:10 PM
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In reply to: She's at Western State I believe and boulders a LOT there
yup. she can be found in the school gym every now and then.
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dontfall
Aug 13, 2003, 11:58 PM
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In reply to: Katie is definitely hot!
Anyone have a pic?
Chris
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xanx
Aug 14, 2003, 12:27 AM
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out of curiosity.... have any women done 5.14c or 5.14d? i know some have done V13.
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michell_e
Aug 14, 2003, 1:12 AM
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can't believe i'm bothering to post this, but its a slow day at work... Lynn Hill definitely is both more amazing and much hotter than Katie Brown. AND, she was climbing when there really weren't any female climber role models around, which makes her a groundbreaking, super strong, amazing, and hot woman - yes, Katie is also an amazing climber, but Lynn gets more points for being first, and being much more diverse. And they both get points for being amazingly nice, super friendly, humble people, and great role models.
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iamthewallress
Aug 14, 2003, 1:26 AM
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Hey, Tom. I'll oblige to keep things even... Tomas Huber is a looker. Although the other front-page news boys all have nice back muscles, most of them don't have very good faces....you have to sort of go second tier for that. Except for Tomas. Yuji isn't really "hot" in my book, but definately a cutey.
Alex Lowe was very hansome too. I don't know if there is a female analogue for this one, but it seems like it might be too disrespectful since he is no longer with us to discuss his relative hotness when people bring up his climbing accomplishments. I never see anyone talking about how hot Bev Johnson was, but that is probably more due to a lack of data rather than out of respect for her.
In a way I think it's cool that people always talk about Lynn Hill as being hot, because IMO she's does not fit the typical stereotype of the "hot" woman that makes men drool...It tells me that guys actually are more turned on by her accomplishments than her cleavage or lack thereof.
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moabbeth
Aug 14, 2003, 1:36 AM
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In reply to: Hey, Tom. I'll oblige to keep things even... Tomas Huber is a looker. Although the other front-page news boys all have nice back muscles, most of them don't have very good faces....you have to sort of go second tier for that. Except for Tomas.
Never had the pleasure of meeting him but from the pics I've seen, you're right on Melissa!!! :lol: :lol:
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muncher
Aug 14, 2003, 1:41 AM
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In reply to: out of curiosity.... have any women done 5.14c or 5.14d? i know some have done V13.
A little while back Josune Bereciatu sent Bain de Sang 9A (14D) a route Fred Nicole put up at Saint Loup Switzerland. She has also send a number of routes graded 8C+ (14C) and is miles ahead of any other women sport climbers.
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akd
Aug 14, 2003, 2:15 AM
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I thought Hidrofobia was a flash ascent, not onsight (nevertheless, incredible achievement). Actually, there were never any discussion about its grade, but after Brown's ascent people start arguing about it... I think some people are fixed with the "tribout" thinking... (anyway, my respects to Jean Baptiste).
And yes, Josune is the only woman so far (with the exception of Liv Sansoz and Hasta la Vista) to have climbed 14c and 14d (Honky Mix, Noia, Bain de Sang, etc).
Lastly the Hill vs. Brown thing...it is just me or it seems like a lame troll?
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yosemite
Aug 14, 2003, 3:49 AM
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In our discussion of outstanding climbers, Nancy Feagin needs to be mentioned as one of the best in any number of climbing disciplines. She has done the El Cap & Half Dome link-up in a day, as well as many ascents all over the world, including the Eiger and a rather high peak along the Nepal/Tibet border. I wonder why we don't hear more about her.
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ergophobe
Aug 15, 2003, 3:56 AM
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[quote="traddad"]In reply to: In reply to: I'm with Thrasher. Maybe I'm getting old, but.... Experience and wisdom are becoming more and more sexy to me. Funny how with women it always seems to get back to their looks or sexuality. Hmmmm... Methinks this person missed the point entirely.....
I don't think so. Whether you find experience and wisdom sexy or tight buns, it doesn't matter, you are still evaluating two female climbers based on which is sexier, not based on which has the more impressive climbing accomplishments. I just don't see that done with men. In my example, instead of buns, I could have said that experience and wisdom made Hans (or Dean) sexier. The point is, which one is sexier has nothing to do with which one climbed 5.14 first (or went fastest up the Nose or whatever).
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ergophobe
Aug 15, 2003, 4:00 AM
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In reply to: [quote="ergophobe] Maybe every time there's a discussion on whether Dean Potter or Alex Lowe was really the greatest climber in history (the preferred choices of RC.com, dominated as it is by Americans and youth)
I'll take Peter Croft over Dean Potter regarding one of the greatest American male climbers. I agree that Alex was the other one.
Remember, Peter freesoloed Astroman in 1987. that's fiteen years before Dean.
Uh, that wasn't the point. The point is, who is sexier, Croft, Lowe or Potter?
And for the record, I would only consider Alex Lowe an "all-around" climber, and not the best in history.
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ergophobe
Aug 15, 2003, 4:04 AM
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In reply to: In a way I think it's cool that people always talk about Lynn Hill as being hot, because IMO she's does not fit the typical stereotype of the "hot" woman that makes men drool...It tells me that guys actually are more turned on by her accomplishments than her cleavage or lack thereof.
But she's also far from ugly, and if she were, I would suggest that she would have had a lot more trouble getting sponsorships, whereas that's rarely an obstacle for men (this came up in track a few years back when one of the super runners couldn't get money, whereas it just flowed in for Jackie Joyner and Marion Jones). Doesn't it bother you at least a little that virtually every discussion about female athletic accomplishments end up getting back to how the woman looks?
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whistleblower
Aug 15, 2003, 6:56 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: [ I'll take Peter Croft over Dean Potter regarding one of the greatest American male climbers. I agree that Alex was the other one. Remember, Peter freesoloed Astroman in 1987. that's fiteen years before Dean. Peter Croft is Canadian.
Canada IS America.
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iamthewallress
Aug 15, 2003, 7:42 PM
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In reply to: Doesn't it bother you at least a little that virtually every discussion about female athletic accomplishments end up getting back to how the woman looks?
Honestly...yes, it does. And what bothers me even more is that I'm so conditioned to the whole thing that I know that I am more likely in real life to consider a woman's looks when describing her than I am a man. Seeing's how I'm a straight woman, I think that says something.
I was making light though...saying if I can't change that half of the equation, at least I can point out which guys I think are hot. I do think that to some degree it is a matter of biology to have a little oggle when someone with a rock hard body is photographed half-naked in an aesthetic flexing pose. I look at the climbing mags for pictures, and I can not lie. I look at the boys; I look at the girls. I turn the page on the hairy, snow crusted, down-filled alpine climber pics, and pause on the tanned muscles.
Still, I think that absolutley no one questions that Lynn Hill is not simply a climber of the subset "female". She's done stuff that no guy could do, and everyone realizes that. I'd rather see people have there head go to the sexual place over real accomplishment than simple T&A.
Also, I think that Lynn Hill was such a rad climber that she'd have gotten plenty of sponsors even if she was butt ugly. There are women who I find rather physically unattractive who get sponsored and put on the cover of mags.
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jut
Aug 15, 2003, 9:39 PM
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In reply to: [quote="ergophobe] I'll take Peter Croft over Dean Potter regarding one of the greatest American male climbers. I agree that Alex was the other one. Remember, Peter freesoloed Astroman in 1987. that's fiteen years before Dean.
Now that we've all agreed PC is Canadian....
Your argument that he is "greater" than Dean is weak. Just because someone is older than someone else and was able to do something before another person, doesn't make them greater. Is TM Herbert a greater climber than Tommy Caldwell? Maybe/maybe not, but the deciding factor isn't time.
If you come back with a "but he had the vision" answer, then I still counter with the fact Dean Potter had the vision to free climb 1/2 Dome and El Cap in a day and to do 3 Grade VIs free in a day and .......
My belief: Dean Potter is the greatest traditional free climber the world has ever seen. The guy is the sickness.
Oh yeah, Isabelle Pattisier was soooooo much hotter than any of the other women listed. A very nice looker and strong climber.
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iamthewallress
Aug 15, 2003, 9:45 PM
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In reply to: If you come back with a "but he had the vision" answer, then I still counter with the fact Dean Potter had the vision to free climb 1/2 Dome and El Cap in a day and to do 3 Grade VIs free in a day and ....... .
It's not vision...it's ability and motivation. It was about being talented enough and having enough "free" time to work on such a large project for sure, but it was no big secret that both free IAD would be one of the next big "IAD" feathers for someone's cap. Other people were working on the exact same thing at the exact same time. They talked about their progress with each other. No secret.
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jut
Aug 15, 2003, 10:36 PM
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Bacher soloed New Dimensions in 1976. Barber soloed Stech/Salathe in 73. It was a natural progression for someone to solo Astroman after the Rostrum after the Moratorium and Butterballs, etc. They were all trying to one up the other. Your comment strengthens my point. How old you are dictates where you will be in the logical sequence. The question is, could Croft have soloed and accomplished what Potter did. I, personally, think not. Granted, there is a strong argument for Croft being "greater" than Potter, but not strong enough for me.
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rrrADAM
Aug 15, 2003, 11:13 PM
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Moved to Climbing History & Trivia. ~Adam
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cracksniffer
Aug 15, 2003, 11:22 PM
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blah blah blah is better because blah blah blah hardest repoint blah blah blah blah nobody else does s@#$ like that but blah blah blah all around climber is definitely blah blah blah blah climbs ice but blah blah climbs ice AND snow AND A5+ and blah blah blah dynoed to the top of El Cap with no pro and blah blah blah just because he boulders V17 blah blah blah did it WAY before she did blah blah blah blah doesn't count because he's 30% Lithuanian blah blah blah blah blah 5.15C blah blah blah is way HARDER than any trad climb even if you free solo it blah blah blah blah blah in 1976 but blah blah in 1854 and there were no bolts blah blah blah is way more rad than blah blah blah even though she only sport climbs up to 5.13 blah blah blah El Cap and Half Dome Watkins blah blah Fitz Roy blah blah blah same day blah blah with a heinous storm remember blah blah blah Snake Dike
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akd
Aug 15, 2003, 11:23 PM
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In reply to: Oh yeah, Isabelle Pattisier was soooooo much hotter than any of the other women listed. A very nice looker and strong climber.
And she wasn't only a rock climber, since I believe she was also a plane pilot and a car driver, i.e. If my memory doesn't trick me, I'd say she took place in the rally raid Paris-Dakar more than once...
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camhead
Sep 3, 2003, 12:28 AM
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okay, chuffers!!!!
two points of clarification from this little thread. I'm not going to excessively quote anything, just add some tidbits.
1. In regards to Katie Brown's onsight of the 5.14a, nobody has mentioned that the route was subsequently downgraded to 5.13d. I'm not sure if the downgrading was due to its being flashed by a female or not.
2. As for the whole Croft versus Potter on Astroman debate, nobody has mentioned that Potter's solo involved an .11a variation which avoided the route's .11c crux boulder sequence. I'm not sure if this takes anything away from his accomplishment, but Croft soloed the route in its entirity.
word.
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kalcario
Sep 3, 2003, 1:00 AM
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P.Edlinger and P.Berhault were free soloing multi pitch 11's (and 12's!) in the Verdon, in EB's...IN THE LATE 1970's. Alain Robert has free soloed a multi pitch 12d, and a 13b 1000' off the deck, also in the Verdon. The American Direct on the Dru, a 2000'+ alpine 5.11 in the Mont Blanc range, has been free soloed by people you've never heard of (including one named Catherine) in the early 80's...winter free solo enchainments of the great North Faces in the Alps are standard fare nowadays, but were big news...10 to 15 years ago. Let's try to keep some perspective here, kids, it is'nt all about America and Americans...
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akd
Sep 3, 2003, 2:10 AM
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In reply to: okay, chuffers!!!! two points of clarification from this little thread. I'm not going to excessively quote anything, just add some tidbits. 1. In regards to Katie Brown's onsight of the 5.14a, nobody has mentioned that the route was subsequently downgraded to 5.13d. I'm not sure if the downgrading was due to its being flashed by a female or not.
I think you missed what I wrote before: In reply to: Actually, there were never any discussion about its grade, but after Brown's ascent people start (ed) arguing about it... I think some people are fixed with the "tribout" thinking...
But it's ok... and kalkario, I agree with your concept of not being so self centered. (anyway, I think the same happens/has happened in other places: just remember how "famous" was Wolfgang Güllich for the french press in the late 80's....)
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shortfatoldguy
Sep 3, 2003, 2:14 AM
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In reply to: In a way I think it's cool that people always talk about Lynn Hill as being hot, because IMO she's does not fit the typical stereotype of the "hot" woman that makes men drool...It tells me that guys actually are more turned on by her accomplishments than her cleavage or lack thereof.
Her astounding accomplishments plus her natural no-bullschit beauty (including both her genetic inheritance, on the one hand, and the body and face her *life experiences* and her *choices* have produced, on the other) make for quite a combination.
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da5id
Sep 7, 2003, 2:27 PM
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In reply to: Katie is definitely hot! And to onsite a 5.14a is just the icing on the cake.
since when is onsiting 5.14a considered icing on the cake?!?!?!?
i think you may have this reversed...
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drkodos
Sep 7, 2003, 4:11 PM
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Neither!
Christian Griffith !!!
Swoon, Sproing!
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riceplate
Oct 19, 2003, 5:20 AM
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In reply to: Oh yeah, Isabelle Pattisier was soooooo much hotter than any of the other women listed. A very nice looker and strong climber.
le pâtisserie. yummy!
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reno
Oct 19, 2003, 6:01 AM
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In reply to: She's done stuff that no guy could do, and everyone realizes that.
A minor point, but one that needs to be made...
Lynn Hill has done a climb that no man has yet been able to do. Not a climb that no man could do. Time will tell if there is a male who can do the climb. As of today, it hasn't happened. That's far different than "stuff that no guy could do..." (My emphasis added...)
Beyond all this, Cracksniffer has the idea. Good post, sir.
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iamthewallress
Oct 19, 2003, 6:24 PM
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Talk about missing the point of the argument to nit pick. Could: past tense for infinative "to be able". No guy has been able to free the Nose on lead. Get over it.
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on_sight_man
Oct 20, 2003, 10:47 PM
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Lynn Hills accomplishments far outweigh Katie Browns IMO. But Katie has a long time to catch up. Seems like the question was pretty simple. Is it a bigger deal for someone to send a 5.14 in the 80's in their (what late 20s?) when 5.14 was the pinnacle of what everyone was doing, or to onsight a 5.14a in the 90's in their teens when people were pushing 5.14c/d? Sort of a silly question, but I think the former pushes more limits than the latter.
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riceplate
Oct 25, 2003, 7:03 AM
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In reply to: Is it a bigger deal for someone to send a 5.14 in the 80's in their (what late 20s?) when 5.14 was the pinnacle of what everyone was doing, or to onsight a 5.14a in the 90's in their teens when people were pushing 5.14c/d? Sort of a silly question, but I think the former pushes more limits than the latter.
explain to me again how redpointing a .14a pushes limits more than onsighting a .14a... Onsighting a 5.14 is leagues harder than redpointing one. Like a universe apart.
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stickclipper
Oct 25, 2003, 3:31 PM
Post #52 of 57
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Registered: May 3, 2003
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To set the record straight:
Lynn Hill was the first woman to redpoint 14a, Mass Critique...and there has been no woman to onsight or flash a 14a, because that route that Brown climbed in Spain, Hydrophobia, was subsequently downrated to 13d, since something like three or four Euros flashed or onsighted it as well...Consensus now NOT 14a.
Still, that's a hell of an effort for ANYONE!
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lou_dale
Oct 25, 2003, 4:14 PM
Post #53 of 57
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Registered: May 27, 2003
Posts: 53
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i think anybody who climbs is hot - young/old/male/female - as long as they do it safely and are respectful towards all life.
the best climber in the world? in a previous article - a quote alex lowe comes to mind, and i agree - the best climber in the world is the one having the most fun.
life is good
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redpoint73
Oct 25, 2003, 4:17 PM
Post #54 of 57
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Registered: Aug 20, 2002
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In reply to: In a way I think it's cool that people always talk about Lynn Hill as being hot, because IMO she's does not fit the typical stereotype of the "hot" woman that makes men drool...
Thats the thing about stereotypes -- they aren't always true.
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climboard
Oct 31, 2003, 3:36 PM
Post #55 of 57
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Registered: Apr 10, 2001
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In reply to: To set the record straight: Lynn Hill was the first woman to redpoint 14a, Mass Critique...and there has been no woman to onsight or flash a 14a, because that route that Brown climbed in Spain, Hydrophobia, was subsequently downrated to 13d, since something like three or four Euros flashed or onsighted it as well...Consensus now NOT 14a. Still, that's a hell of an effort for ANYONE!
It was considered 14a when she onsighted it, therefore she has onsighted a 14a in my book.
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chossmonkey
Oct 31, 2003, 3:55 PM
Post #56 of 57
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Registered: Feb 1, 2003
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In reply to: In reply to: To set the record straight: Lynn Hill was the first woman to redpoint 14a, Mass Critique...and there has been no woman to onsight or flash a 14a, because that route that Brown climbed in Spain, Hydrophobia, was subsequently downrated to 13d, since something like three or four Euros flashed or onsighted it as well...Consensus now NOT 14a. Still, that's a hell of an effort for ANYONE! It was considered 14a when she onsighted it, therefore she has onsighted a 14a in my book.
Just because a route is rated 5.x doesn't mean a damn thing. Anyone can rate any route what ever they want. Following ascents confirm or deny the grading. Maybe it was 14b for Katie when she onsighted it. More likely it was a route that suited her perfectly and probably felt like 13c. None the less it is a very impressive accomplishment to onsight 13d. I think Lynn Hill has contributed far more to the sport so far. Katie still has plenty of time to keep raising the bar.
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climboard
Oct 31, 2003, 4:35 PM
Post #57 of 57
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Registered: Apr 10, 2001
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In this case I believe the number does count from a historical perspective.
I believe Katie should be credited as the first woman to onsight 14a. If Mass Critique is downgraded at some future time are we going to say Lynn Hill WASN'T the first woman to climb 14a?
I don't think we should rewrite history like that.
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