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rockfax
Nov 12, 2003, 9:16 PM
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Bolts are a necessary evil. They have made climbing safer and more open to the masses. (I've personally placed hundreds of them)
But often their use is abused (and often causes access problems).
In my home area of the Eastern Sierra, cracks are now routinely bolted. It is quite sad.
In southern California and in other areas some cliffs are grid-bolted to death in acts of environmental vandalism that would even make the anti-environmentalist George Bush blush.
It is the dumbing down to the lowest common denominator of the challanges that nature has presented us.
Has climbing adopted the crassness of consumerism and over-consumption of mainstream American society?
Whatever you think of the significance of Jason Kehl's headpoint solo of The Fly.....and his ropeless ascent (after roped practice) of Evilution and After Midnight, he is leading the way to a mindset that hopefully will see bolts used as a last resort (as it used to be).
I think Kehl's adoption of Gritstone headpoint techniques is to be applauded and hopefully will trickle down to the rest of the climbing community.
Mick
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dingus
Nov 12, 2003, 9:24 PM
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In reply to: Has climbing adopted the crassness of consumerism and over-consumption of mainstream American society?
I find that the most amazing question! Do you think that?
DMT
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stuck
Nov 12, 2003, 9:26 PM
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I hope you're right.
John Sherman wrote an article a while back on the (im)possibility of "retro-trad", becoming the cool thing. It would become fashionable to place brassies on sportclimbs. The climbing economy would also prosper. Who want to sell a 10 dollar quickdraw when you can market a 50 dollar micro-cam?
I think the article ended with something like "yeah right".
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holmeslovesguinness
Nov 12, 2003, 9:49 PM
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People constantly lament the 'dumbing down' of the sport. But really it seems to be going in two opposite directions. The masses want a safe activity that they can have fun participating in, and there is nothing wrong with that. On the other end you have the bad asses (like Kehl) doing crazy (read - 'pure' or 'ethical') stuff to try and push the envelope.
Use of bolts is (and should be) a controversial issue. But it seems to me that people focus way to much on the 'environmental' impact of bolts. I would say that the use of bouldering pads (which I understand Kehl used in abundance) has a much greater environmental impact than bolts ever will - look at the areas near the base of popular bouldering problems - they are completely devoid of vegetation and suffer from erosion. Erosion due to foot traffic is a big problem at all popular climbing areas, but it seems to be magnified in high traffic bouldering areas (people jumping off and landing on the ground or crash pads, etc).
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rockfax
Nov 12, 2003, 10:22 PM
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In reply to: I hope you're right. John Sherman wrote an article a while back on the (im)possibility of "retro-trad", becoming the cool thing. It would become fashionable to place brassies on sportclimbs. The climbing economy would also prosper. Who want to sell a 10 dollar quickdraw when you can market a 50 dollar micro-cam? I think the article ended with something like "yeah right".
The problem with Sherman is that he has no faith and little patience.
Trad is the the cool thing in the UK. It has reached the collective consciousness. Sport climbing isn't dead but it is more a tool that is used to face the real challanges. Headpointing, High Ball Bouldering and Deep Water Soloing are on the ascendant
In the US because there is little collective consciousness (because of the geography), less concensus (little serious debate), and more masochistic individuals (cowboy culture) fighting their own corners it may take a little time.
I do see it happening, individuals like Kehl amd Matt Samet, and many others who go against the grain will have an influence.
Mick
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robmcc
Nov 12, 2003, 10:30 PM
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In reply to: People constantly lament the 'dumbing down' of the sport. But really it seems to be going in two opposite directions. The masses want a safe activity that they can have fun participating in, and there is nothing wrong with that.
Gyms. If you're looking for a safe actifity, climbing outside is a poor choice. There is a possibility of injury or death. If someone finds that small risk excessive, they should try golf.
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holmeslovesguinness
Nov 12, 2003, 10:54 PM
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In reply to: Gyms. If you're looking for a safe actifity, climbing outside is a poor choice. There is a possibility of injury or death. If someone finds that small risk excessive, they should try golf.
My comparison was between the average outdoor sport climb (fairly safe unless you are a dumb ass) and soloing a 5.14 with a bad landing (even after reheasing it).
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longalong
Nov 12, 2003, 10:56 PM
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In reply to: I would say that the use of bouldering pads (which I understand Kehl used in abundance) has a much greater environmental impact than bolts ever will - look at the areas near the base of popular bouldering problems - they are completely devoid of vegetation and suffer from erosion. Erosion due to foot traffic is a big problem at all popular climbing areas, but it seems to be magnified in high traffic bouldering areas (people jumping off and landing on the ground or crash pads, etc).
Off the topis, but I don't care. I just stated this in another post. Bouldering pads don't make a difference environmentally. Regardless of pads, or not, wear and tear around popular bouldering area is going to happen. A pad is not going to change anything when you get a crew of climbers hanging around a boulder(ie walking, spotting, pooping) all day. If all these climbers didn't have pads, they'd still be doing the damage that occurs. If you don't think so you are living in a dream.
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stizrizzo
Nov 12, 2003, 11:25 PM
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In reply to: In my home area of the Eastern Sierra, cracks are now routinely bolted. It is quite sad. In southern California and in other areas some cliffs are grid-bolted to death in acts of environmental vandalism that would even make the anti-environmentalist George Bush blush. It is the dumbing down to the lowest common denominator of the challanges that nature has presented us. Mick
I believe that the "mainstreaming" of climbing, is responsible for the overbolting of so many places.
Having started climbing in Colorado (not the sporty meccas of Boulder, Rifle, etc.), and J-tree, primarily, I had never realized how out of control the bolting craze was until I started frequenting crags of the eastern Sierra, this summer.
Indeed, Mick, scores of beautiful cracks in ORG, Rock Creek, etc., have been needlessly bolted -- cracks that beg for perfect clean placements. It is sad, IMHO.
Back to the point...
Now that Rock Climbing is mainstream, people expect it to be safe. Likewise, many bolters use that as a justification for overbolting - "We have to provide safe routes for new leaders", etc.
"Back in the day," boldness as well as skill were critical, and common attributes of climbers - this kept climbing as a relatively exclusive sport - the risk of injury and death ensured that people learned and paid dues and gained skills and had respect for the rock and the mountains. Now, as mentioned, more people become involved in sport and gym climbing (safe climbing), and go on to become tomorrow's bolters of no-risk grid-bolted atrocities. As long as the general climbing population continues to be OK with this, it will just continue and increase.
I've heard that the new J-Tree guidebook will include scores of new sport climbs -- And while I often enjoy sport climbing, Much of J-Tree's character has to do with the boldness of many of its climbs (esp. slabs).
Anyway, risk is a big appeal of cliimbing, and it is a disservice to climbers and the rock and the mountains to so agressively try to eliminate that risk.
Hopefully boldness will come back into style here in the states.
(Don't know about the consumption/materialism thing)
Cheers
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strider
Nov 12, 2003, 11:47 PM
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In reply to: ...It is the dumbing down to the lowest common denominator of the challanges that nature has presented us. ...Whatever you think of the significance of Jason Kehl's headpoint solo of The Fly.....and his ropeless ascent (after roped practice) of Evilution and After Midnight, he is leading the way to a mindset that hopefully will see bolts used as a last resort (as it used to be)... Mick
I agreed that bolts have been used inappropriately in some areas and, as you say, in some areas it is tantamount to vandalism. However I must disagree with you on the point above. You say that Kehl is "leading the way" to a mindset where bolts are used as a last resort. So I guess when he top-roped these problems he didn't use the bolts on top to set up the top-rope? I can in no way see how top-roping the route and then doing a ropeless ascent is a bolder or more ethical style of climbing (esp. in regards to bolting). He has done absolutely nothing to demonstrate that he is leading the way. Had he not used the bolts AND had committed himself to ONLY ropeless attempts on the route, only THEN could he be used as a poster boy for your ethics battle on bolting. When he used the bolts to top-rope the problem, was he not "dumbing down to the lowest common denominator of the challanges that nature has presented us" ??? If he was up to the challenge and leading the way, as you say, then he would have disdained the bolts on top and made only ropeless attempts on the route.
I am not saying his ascent is less that spectacular, I am not advocating the use or dis-use of bolts. I am merely pointing out that you picked the wrong guy and the wrong routes and the wrong situations to try and bolster your opinion. Find another poster boy.
-n
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arostecrux
Nov 12, 2003, 11:59 PM
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This is a great topic. Bolts allow countless miles of rock to be climbed FREE that would otherwise only be top roped or dreamt about. And yet at the same time bolts that are placed on natural pro routes tends to subvert the great mysterious qualities of the rock that erupted there just by chance. Maybe bolts are placed on traditionally PURE routes because there are those amoung us in the climbing community who do not want to work hard at discovering a new technique for free climbing. They would rather place protection at their convenience. So it is the lowest common denominator, those who are bolting great cracks are trying to bring the climb DOWN to their level. The whole point of struggleing on a route is to raise oneself up to the requirements that the rock presents. That is what is beautiful about climbing.
So the availability of drills and bolts and the influx of new generations of climbers who are not versed in the ethics that have preserved the sport -- all are adding up to a problem concerning what should and should not be bolted. BOlt the faces, but please keep away from the cracks with your machines.
I am a face climber mostly. But I can't ignore the reality that bolting a crack is like trying to one up nature. I climb to learn from nature, not to dominate or change what is good to begin with. We all climb for different reasons, and hearinga bout people bolting the hell out of naturally pure lines is one reason I don't understand.
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wlderdude
Nov 13, 2003, 12:03 AM
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Less bolts, huh?
It would add some credibility to your argument if you posted a topic in proper English.
If you have something in discrete units (such as bolts), you say FEWER.
For example,
-Fewer carabiners
-Fewer harnesses
-Fewer people who make fun of you
When you have something that does not have discrete units, you say LESS.
-Less rope
-Less water
-Less intelligence
I disagree with what you are promoting and would love to bring up some flaws in your logic, but that would probably prove futile in making anything better for anyone. Perhaps I can just teach you some grammar and better equip you for more advanced thinking.
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noodlearms
Nov 13, 2003, 12:25 AM
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In reply to: It would add some credibility to your argument if you posted a topic in proper English bla bla bla
Don't be an ass. Everyone understands the post.
Besides, I've read your profile. While it contains no spelling mistakes, its punctuation is dubious, and its style is incredibly dull. You're no Shakespeare.
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stizrizzo
Nov 13, 2003, 12:33 AM
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In reply to: Less bolts, huh? It would add some credibility to your argument if you posted a topic in proper English.
I may be off here, but that sounds distinctly similar to a personal attack on the author's intelligence, not the argument itself. Perhaps in the realm of the "ad hominem?" Of itself, an invalid argument, Wlderdude.
It is rarely beneficial to cast the first stone in such a fashion.
Obviously, you seek to demonstrate your exceptional intelligence, and command of the english language. Therefore, I would recommend posting a reply which articulately states your views on the topic, rather than merely insulting someone whose views differ from your own.
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rokklym
Nov 13, 2003, 12:38 AM
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I enjoy getting on a good sport climb, but I'm not a fan of over bolting and unneccesary bolting. I'm sure the gym climbing thing has alot to do with some of this, but even without gyms there would be people with that mindset to bolt madly. I personally think that too many route / crag developers are the same people that are making the guidebooks in many instances. So, more routes = more people = more $$ in sales. Then, this leads alot to people trying to get more quanity routes in, regardless of quality. I'd much rather see a couple decent routes at a crag than a dozen mediocre ones.
Bolting routes comes down to a safety issue. there needs to be enough well placed bolts on a route to keep you from decking near the bottom and close enough further up to keep you from taking too big of a fall. I really see no need to have bolts 2 moves apart 50 feet up a route.
So basically, just put some thought into a route before you bolt it.
o.k., i'm done rambling..
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wlderdude
Nov 13, 2003, 12:42 AM
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Yeah, my typing skills are sub-par. I will gladly admit that.
I was also rather harsh, but meant no offense.
I just don't like sloppily thought out posts going up.
If you missed the logical fallacies of the post, you might want to read it again.
I feel like he is treating the topic of bolting harshly and just wanted to give him a hard time.
No offense was intended.
For what it is worth, I don't feel like grid bolting is much of a problem. Where I see the problem is with people who cut bolts. I think it is unfortunate that we have people who are cutting bolts off routes that really need them.
I don't like highly opinionated people spouting out lousy rhetoric, especially when such will likely lead to more cut bolts.
I apologize to anyone I may have offended.
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redpoint73
Nov 13, 2003, 1:08 AM
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In reply to: Rockfax, since you say that you co-authored a Rumney guidebook (and keeping on topic), have you heard the rumour about "That 5.8 Crack by the Road" being bolted?
Pretty sure that was a troll.
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bones
Nov 13, 2003, 1:31 AM
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I'm still waiting for some idiot to make the inevitable "you don't have to clip the bolts" argument.
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chossmonkey
Nov 13, 2003, 2:16 AM
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Bolts don't cause access problems, people do. Yes, there are routes that are way over bolted. And there are cracks that should not be bolted that are. 100 climbers will cause far more visual and environmental impact than 100 over bolted routes in the same area. In an all sport area why shouldn't the cracks also be bolted? Many sport crags are choss piles the trad climbers passed over years ago for the cleaner cliffs. Place a good cam in crappy rock and it will probably pull out.
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chossmonkey
Nov 13, 2003, 2:34 AM
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In reply to: I'm still waiting for some idiot to make the inevitable "you don't have to clip the bolts" argument.
You don't have to clip the bolts!!!! To people who don't like the way other people put up routes I say get off your ass and get doing some F.A.'s so somebody can complain that you put in to many or not enough bolts. I'm not saying go bolt the crap out of everything, but if a piece of rock has been climbed then most people will refrain from bolting it any more. I find it funny that many people who complain never contribute. I think if anyone would influence fewer bolts it would be Dean Potter. While Kehl's ascent was impressive the most influential ascents are the first.
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sixter
Nov 13, 2003, 2:46 AM
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In reply to: This is a great topic. Bolts allow countless miles of rock to be climbed FREE that would otherwise only be top roped or dreamt about.
I don't intend to start a flame war, or knock arostecrux, but when did the use of a top rope cease from being classified as free climbing? I thought free climbing encompassed trad, sport, AND top rope.
As to Strider's comments on Kehl using bolts for a top rope, I don't know about the ones he did, but there are plenty of top rope boulders around here that require gear, and have no bolts on top.
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strider
Nov 13, 2003, 3:54 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: This is a great topic. Bolts allow countless miles of rock to be climbed FREE that would otherwise only be top roped or dreamt about. I don't intend to start a flame war, or knock arostecrux, but when did the use of a top rope cease from being classified as free climbing? I thought free climbing encompassed trad, sport, AND top rope. As to Strider's comments on Kehl using bolts for a top rope, I don't know about the ones he did, but there are plenty of top rope boulders around here that require gear, and have no bolts on top.
Anyone know if the top of the routes are bolted? We are talking about The Fly, After Midnight, and Evilution. If they are not bolted then my previous comment is frivilous and irrelavant. =)
-n
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tim
Nov 13, 2003, 4:07 AM
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In reply to: Bolting routes comes down to a safety issue. there needs to be enough well placed bolts on a route to keep you from decking near the bottom and close enough further up to keep you from taking too big of a fall. I really see no need to have bolts 2 moves apart 50 feet up a route.
This is why everyone should climb at Stone Mountain at least once in their life, to see a really well thought out rebolting job done right. You won't deck as long as you clip the bolts, but even then you may be looking at a 100' whipper if you slip. Still, it's just enough to keep the heads from popping off. A great job by the Carolina Climbers Coalition and others who retained the traditions of a historic area, while balancing them against the need for confidence in the bolts that *were* placed. I spoke with some of the FA'ists when I've been down that way, and they were happy with the rebolting effort (in contrast to their dismay about other retrobolting debacles in North Carolina, long since chopped).
I don't doubt that bolts have their place, it's just a bit depressing to see a protectable crack at a traditional area bolted by some moron, or a crappy anchor put in by some yahoo's squeeze job. There are routes that would not exist without bolts, and that's fine -- but it's atrocious form to bolt beautiful, natural lines that protect quite well without them, FA or no.
What Jason Kehl does will have little impact on the above, I think. Dean Potter is my personal hero (in the climbing arena); I suspect that I'm not alone in feeling that Kehl's exploits are far removed from my interests.
JMHO.
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raindog
Nov 13, 2003, 4:29 AM
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In reply to: Where I see the problem is with people who cut bolts.
He is the kettle. You are the pot. You are both black.
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wlderdude
Nov 13, 2003, 5:37 AM
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Well said, raindog.
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kalcario
Nov 13, 2003, 5:46 AM
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I think people will follow his example and start toproping more now. Instead of the "Hot Flashes" column in Climbing, we'll have "Hot Anchors", you know, because the anchors get hot from all the rope friction...also you know it's only a matter of time before circus nets replace crash pads as the next way to generate attention for otherwise insignificant ascents...
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sharpender
Nov 14, 2003, 2:33 AM
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Fug the rhetoric. Chop the bolts. Climb clean. 8)
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rockfax
Nov 14, 2003, 3:00 AM
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In reply to: I think people will follow his example and start toproping more now. Instead of the "Hot Flashes" column in Climbing, we'll have "Hot Anchors", you know, because the anchors get hot from all the rope friction...also you know it's only a matter of time before circus nets replace crash pads as the next way to generate attention for otherwise insignificant ascents...
Sharp Kalcario, but as usual just a tad too cynical.
It's not just Kehls but Dave Sharrat and Tim Kemple in New England, and Matt Samet in Boulder who are pushing the boat out in the USA.....and others. ...Potter.....Croft....
I suppose the best example is what is happening in the UK with young climbers like Pete Hurley, Ben Heason, Jordan Buys, Adam Lincoln and others.
I'm guessing but a lot of these climbers are gym-trained, are also keen sport climbers but are looking for exciting challanges that headpointing, trad climbing, soloing, deep water soloing and highball bouldering give.
Like Ken Wilson (a loud spokesperson in the UK) says, quite loudly, sport climbing is crag excercising and the NEW YOUTH get bored with it quickly.
This might have a trickle down effect if these young pioneers get the limelight they deserve....the media have some responsibility and I mean above just reporting what goes on but making some effort to analysis and discuss it....some chance I know, but I am a pathetic optimist.
The end result may be that climbers resort not to hiding down a bolt hole at the first sign of danger but as a first line of defence they grab a nut or a cam, or as you say they use the safety net of a pad or a top rope, surely better than getting the drill out of the holster.
In essence it may lead to FEWER bolts.
best regards,
Mick
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dirko
Nov 14, 2003, 3:43 AM
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Kehl, Potter, Kemple... right now all I see most of the neo-trad movement being implemented from the top down. Prominent climbers may find that their ethical stance coincides with acts that grab their sponsors attention. A grassroots trad movement has yet to appear in the US. Of course, new climbers aren't going to be climbings R-rated routes, but considering their gym-climbing background there exists no reason for them to aspire to such goals. I guess I am saying is that I am skeptical of the motives of those pushing the envelope in the trad climbing arena....
The questions in my mind are:
Does increased bolting = increased safety at the crags? Perhaps less-bolted lines inspire more caution and a slower learning curve...perhaps they do not.
Does increased bolting threaten access?
Does increased bolting affect the climbing experience?
I think that creating dangerous bolted routes is folly. I guess we all have a different definition of dangerous though.
-The first generation of climbers were the pioneers and the stonemasters. They created our sport.
-The next generation of climbers are the gym climbers/boulderers. They are defining climbing today.
-The next generation of climbers will be the one that faces the reality that bolts don't last forever. That will be interesting.
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rockfax
Nov 14, 2003, 5:15 AM
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In reply to: Kehl, Potter, Kemple... right now all I see most of the neo-trad movement being implemented from the top down. Prominent climbers may find that their ethical stance coincides with acts that grab their sponsors attention. A grassroots trad movement has yet to appear in the US.
It has always started from the top. These climbers's lead, in more ways than one.
Celebrity climbers do, for good reason, attract the attention of mainstream climbing, witness print adverts that feature them, or even the # of views a climbing thead gets with a well-knowen name in the thread.
In reply to: Of course, new climbers aren't going to be climbings R-rated routes, but considering their gym-climbing background there exists no reason for them to aspire to such goals. I guess I am saying is that I am skeptical of the motives of those pushing the envelope in the trad climbing arena....
Some of the boldest climbers in the world today (see my post above) are often gym-introduced to climbing and gym-trained and many evolve from the gym to do many on-sight and bold and "traditional" ascents. I have witnessed this.
In reply to: The questions in my mind are: Does increased bolting = increased safety at the crags?.
Yes it does, less chance of a ground fall or gear failure. That is a basic understanding
In reply to: Perhaps less-bolted lines inspire more caution and a slower learning curve...perhaps they do not..
Less bolts means a higher the skill level you have to attain to "save" yourself (placing gear). This takes time to learn.
In reply to: Does increased bolting threaten access?
Yes. A bolted cliff attracts lots of climbers who cause impacts.
In reply to: Does increased bolting affect the climbing experience?
Without a doubt. Whether that is positive or begative depends on the individual.
In reply to: I think that creating dangerous bolted routes is folly.
No it isn't. It is the decision of the first ascensionists. A route that may require bolting may not require bolts at equal intervals, some may be minimal bolted due to alternative gear or because of moderate climbing. Climbing is not an egalitarian sport it is elitist, long may it be so or we have no goals to chase.
In reply to: I guess we all have a different definition of dangerous though.
You guess correctly.
In reply to: -The first generation of climbers were the pioneers and the stonemasters. They created our sport. -The next generation of climbers are the gym climbers/boulderers. They are defining climbing today. -The next generation of climbers will be the one that faces the reality that bolts don't last forever. That will be interesting.
Combine all three, the past and the present and the hope for the future and you have what we are experiencing today.
Mick
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neeshman
Nov 14, 2003, 5:57 AM
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I am probably the least qualified person to be voicing my opinion on this topic. But here we go.
From my point of view the climbing scene has gone through a complete evolution. Take a look at the Traditional guys out there. The Old School guys with 1,000's (literally) of exciting stories to tell. They were all making their own gear, using it knowing that it probably wouldn't hold but hey! what the hell, lets do it anyways! Their whole lives were centered around climbing. These people lived @ Camp 4 for huge portions of their lives. They took year long road trips to go climbing. The list goes on and on and on. They are truly awesome people.
But now climbing has gone mainstream because of how easy and safe it has become. No more questioning your last point of pro, cause it's a bolt. No more equalizing ALL your anchors, cause you can throw 2 draws in @ top and be fine. Instead of spending $1000's and $1000's of dollars on gear, you only have to spend $500 for EVERYTHING you need to sport climb, and $200 for bouldering. No more hauling 75 lbs of gear around and taking a full day approach cause you can load your tiny Camelbak with 15 lbs or gear and head 30 min down the street to the local sport crag.
Climbing has gone from being a "lifestyle" to more of a "sport". It is now something you can do in 30 min rather than 30 days. It no longer has to be an uber expensive thing. It's something to do after work or school, not something you do instead of work or school. We are smack dab in the middle of this huge change. And we have those who are trying to keep the old ways here, and the new-comers who are obviously keeping the innovation train moving. Every sport has it's evolution. Skiing ---> Snowboarding, Water Skiing ---> Wakeboarding, Basketball ---> Slamball, Sprinting ---> Hurtles. Someone will always find a different way to get the same thing done.
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boltdude
Nov 14, 2003, 6:48 PM
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Good thread, rockfax. Definitely too much bolting going on, and retrobolting on classic trad routes at places like Red Rocks is getting really annoying (Tunnel Vision, Olive Oil, etc).
However, when the mags say it's sexy to free solo and have lots of detailed stuff on Potter and various unroped ascents, Ben Heason on the cover on 5.12X, then don't you think it's headed back away from dumbing everything down with too many bolts?
Too many bolts are being used, yes. However, to be fair, there are places where bolts should be added to preserve trees, or to replace permanent piton anchors (rather than scarring the crack further by placing new pitons). Bolt holes can be patched very effectively, but a piton scarred crack can not. It really depends on the situation.
Also, to be fair, just because some cracks are bolted at Owens doesn't mean that they are retrobolting existing crack routes. Even at Owens, we're talking on the order of 100-150 crack routes with less than 10 bolted, right? And it's not like those are all bolted hand cracks, that route next to Gorgeous requires a monster rack of 3.5"-7" pro. And everyone's favorite example at Rock Creek, the 10b with the bolted finger crack off the deck - that left wall is hollow, pro could easily pop (or break the rock), and that's probably why they bolted. They didn't bolt that overhung 5.11a crack right next to it, and it's really hard to place pro.
Besides, the way most sport crags are being developed these days (first bolt way too low), there'll be plenty of serious accidents as people clip right off the deck, then fall near the second bolt and deck out or smash their belayer...not to mention the usual cause of fatal accidents, namely belay chain errors. Climbing will remain a "deadly" sport no matter what happens.
Again, to be fair, what do you think of all the bolts in your book on Nevada limestone? Do you think clipping 20 plus bolts in a single pitch is justified by a 5.14 rating? If 5.14 climbers get good pro, why shouldn't 5.8 climbers have well bolted climbs? Hypocrisy on the part of elitist climbers can only hurt efforts to educate climbers about traditions and how to climb safely without clipping a ton of bolts.
The real issue is whether people can keep their drills away, or whether the US will end up like places in Europe, with every crack bolted...
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gravitytheory
Nov 14, 2003, 7:16 PM
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Title should be changed to "fewer bolts". :lol:
But in all seriousness, I like to have a bolt every five feet or so on all of my climbs. It makes me feel safe, like I'm in the gym.
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bvb
Nov 14, 2003, 8:17 PM
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In reply to: In the US because there is little collective consciousness (because of the geography
not entirely true. whilst this may be true of youngsters today, anyone who began climbing around the time the first g.p.i.w. catalogue was issued most definitely shares a common experience, or common bond, with their peers. the collective consciousness of the 70's crowd -- and i'm talking the whole decade here, not someone who top-roped their first 5.3 on new years eve 1979 -- remains strong and alive and, perhaps, for some of us, a little bitter.
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climbracer
Nov 15, 2003, 1:02 AM
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No bolts ...PLEASE!!!
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rockfax
Nov 15, 2003, 4:05 AM
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In reply to: Also, to be fair, just because some cracks are bolted at Owens doesn't mean that they are retrobolting existing crack routes. Even at Owens, we're talking on the order of 100-150 crack routes with less than 10 bolted, right?
You could be right.
M
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kalcario
Nov 15, 2003, 4:39 AM
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* The end result may be that climbers resort not to hiding down a bolt hole at the first sign of danger but as a first line of defence they grab a nut or a cam, or as you say they use the safety net of a pad or a top rope, surely better than getting the drill out of the holster.*
This is just meaningless drivel-how is grabbing a nut or a cam going to be a first line of defence on something where nuts and cams don't work?
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tweek
Nov 15, 2003, 4:52 AM
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In reply to: Whatever you think of the significance of Jason Kehl's headpoint solo of The Fly.....and his ropeless ascent (after roped practice) of Evilution and After Midnight, he is leading the way to a mindset that hopefully will see bolts used as a last resort (as it used to be).
Sports climbing and soloing are on opposite ends of the spectrum. It can be likened to swimming in a pool and swimming over Niagra falls. One is too extreme to be a driving factor in the other.
Soloing is either a pure act or a pure act of madeness. I do not see such an impressive feat applicable to my view about bolts in the slightest and if anything it discredits his views. Someone soloing those climbs should not dictate to mortals.
So as to the significance of changing mindsets..... it might be limited to yours but one is better than none :D .
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rockfax
Nov 15, 2003, 4:53 AM
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In reply to: * The end result may be that climbers resort not to hiding down a bolt hole at the first sign of danger but as a first line of defence they grab a nut or a cam, or as you say they use the safety net of a pad or a top rope, surely better than getting the drill out of the holster.* This is just meaningless drivel-how is grabbing a nut or a cam going to be a first line of defence on something where nuts and cams don't work?
It may be meaningless to you whatsyourface but it is what is drives "DIVERSITY" in UK climbing.
Where there is no natural protection, you have three choices: bolt it, headpoint it, or leave it for someone else. The choice is the first ascensionists.
Mick
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boltdude
Nov 15, 2003, 5:13 AM
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Jeez Mick, I thought you remembered that "boltdude" is me (Greg) and "socalbolter" is Louie...and I do report to Marty whenever I replace bolts or put up new routes around here (but you get the same emails).
On another topic...
What effect do you think doing routes from the ground up has on overbolting?
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boltdude
Nov 15, 2003, 5:16 AM
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In reply to: Where there is no natural protection, you have three choices: bolt it, headpoint it, or leave it for someone else. The choice is the first ascensionists.
Oh yeah, Mick - what about running it out on lead on the first ascent? Seems like you missed a choice...
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rockfax
Nov 15, 2003, 5:22 AM
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In reply to: The choice is the first ascensionists.
...and what influences the first ascensionist is their ego and their past experience....
Someone who respects the diversity of the climbing community puts a great deal of thought in to their choice.
Someone who is wrapped up in themselves and loves to beat their chest and cry "look at me" will follow the path of least resistance - that being bolting the crap out of everything. They often use excuses such as...I've opened this route for everyone, or I'm protecting the cliff top vegetation.....we need more lower grade well-protected routes.....or all the routes here are bolted why not this one?
It can be a difficult decision....and making the right decision is not for simple minds......but it is often simple minds who make the decision hence, the dumbing down of climbing.
Mick
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rockfax
Nov 15, 2003, 5:25 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: Where there is no natural protection, you have three choices: bolt it, headpoint it, or leave it for someone else. The choice is the first ascensionists. Oh yeah, Mick - what about running it out on lead on the first ascent? Seems like you missed a choice...
Shizzen Greg....this is what happens when you have kids running around, posting on the internet, and tidying the house. Apologies.
You are right...ground-up....and of course the wimp alternative: the top rope.
M
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rockfax
Nov 15, 2003, 5:26 AM
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In reply to: What effect do you think doing routes from the ground up has on overbolting?
Depends who is on the sharp end.
Mick
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bvb
Nov 15, 2003, 5:48 AM
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In reply to: Oh yeah, Mick - what about running it out on lead on the first ascent? Seems like you missed a choice...
don't blame him...he never had the opportunity to see tobin sorenson in action, and so may be unaware of the possibilities embodied in this choice.
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bvb
Nov 15, 2003, 5:53 AM
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In reply to: A grassroots trad movement has yet to appear in the US.
wtf??? up until about 16 years ago, "grassroots trad" was the only kind of climbing there was.
and in many places you are apparently unaware of, it never went away.
of course, dave kennedy and fuckwads like him are trying to kill off the last remaining hiding places of the trad set....
you people should learn your history before you blow smoke.
unless the problem is -- as i suspect -- you simply don't know what it is you don't know.
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riceplate
Nov 15, 2003, 7:01 PM
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In reply to: You are right...ground-up....and of course the wimp alternative: the top rope. M
mind you that it was TR rehersal/cleaning that resulted in all of the "headpoints" of the Grandpa peabody, save perhaps, the Advanced chockcraft route, which was probably bolted ground up.
Does TR rehersal = wimpy?
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riceplate
Nov 15, 2003, 10:21 PM
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In reply to: off topic... has kehl bouldered transporter room? i've always wondered how many ascents that thing's seen.
I doubt that it has seen a second ascent as a boulder problem. It awaits a ground up ascent sans rope.
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sammatt
Nov 15, 2003, 10:58 PM
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Transporter Room -- shudder -- a ghost is walking over my grave. I always wondered, too, if it had had a second ropeless ascent. That problem is completely visionary and was done way before its time--hats off to Dale Bard, big time.
I got partway up one day and just about shat myself. It gets harder the higher you climb, and is a bit crumbly to boot.
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rockfax
Nov 16, 2003, 1:47 AM
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In reply to: Transporter Room -- shudder -- a ghost is walking over my grave. I always wondered, too, if it had had a second ropeless ascent. That problem is completely visionary and was done way before its time--hats off to Dale Bard, big time. I got partway up one day and just about shat myself. It gets harder the higher you climb, and is a bit crumbly to boot.
The story behind that problem as passed down by Eastern Sierra climbers goes someting like...(and as all myths and legends go...take this with a grain of quartz monzonite)......
Dale Bard rap bolted and cleaned the line for his then girlfriend Bobbi Bensman who didn't manage to climb it.
Tommy Herbert...in his pre-embracing sport climbing phase.....ripped the bolts out...probably with his barenaked hands...
Dale then top roped the thing, then solo'ed it....a headpoint ascent....just like Evilution and Rasta Man Vibrations on the same face.
However this was pre-internet era and so some punter couldn't come on to a popular climbing website and spray: BARD'S INFLUENCE: FEWER BOLTS IN AMERICA.
Mick
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roughster
Nov 16, 2003, 1:51 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: The choice is the first ascensionists. ...and what influences the first ascensionist is their ego and their past experience.... Someone who respects the diversity of the climbing community puts a great deal of thought in to their choice. Someone who is wrapped up in themselves and loves to beat their chest and cry "look at me" will follow the path of least resistance - that being bolting the crap out of everything. They often use excuses such as...I've opened this route for everyone, or I'm protecting the cliff top vegetation.....we need more lower grade well-protected routes.....or all the routes here are bolted why not this one? It can be a difficult decision....and making the right decision is not for simple minds......but it is often simple minds who make the decision hence, the dumbing down of climbing. Mick
Mick if that sums up your argument it is not worth even trying to address. It is so simplified and laced with complete nonsense and stereotypes as to be ridiculous. Try this stereotype: Meanwhile, guidebook authors wait in the bushes with a pad of paper and pen to make topos of everyone else's "Statements of Ego" and makes a buck off it. I mean all guidebook authors don't do crap but to create access issues, those greedy bastards! Its all about the money and screwing local climbers. See how stupid stereotypes can be?
Ego and experience are the only 2 factors? And if you chose to sport bolt its all about ego? Man you just put a lot of awesome people who have done more for the sport than someone who releases guidebooks and then starts coming across with a holier than thou attitude. So lets see: Croft, Kauk, Bridwell, and many other "heroes" of the past all eventually jumped on the sport bolting bandwagon so I guess all thier routes are statement of ego aren't they? In reality, it has been the old guard "dumbing" down climbing according to Mick. Man thats an unique stance!
How about this theory: 1st Ascentionists are people willing to go through the learning curve of putting up routes, and have the balls and fortitude to stick it out in spite of critics. The people out on a limb are always the ones on the receiving end of the pot shots, and it has been so since the dawn of time. You have your reasons reasons to climb, I have mine.
If YOU think its all about ego, I guess that says why YOU put up routes in the manner you do. Ego is not my motive nor anyone else that I have been associated with motive for new routes. Its been about having fun, pushing our boundries, and touching new rock for the 1st time. Its about comradre and friendship and about getting away from the 9to5 and out into nature.
So critique away, most of the FAers could give a shit less about what you personally THINK and ASSUME our reasons are.
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crazyclimbingadventures
Nov 16, 2003, 2:51 AM
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I don't see what the big deal is about people not liking bolts. They make climbing safer for everyone, if you don't use them because you think drilling a hole and putting a screw and bolt in the rock is bad, what makes you right? Who's to say that were not supposed to bolt rock so that more people can safely climb it. Just because some people swear trad climbing is the only way to climb, doesn't make it so. We should have diversity in our climbing, and if you don't sport climb then don't use the bolts.
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tim
Nov 16, 2003, 3:05 AM
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In reply to: I don't see what the big deal is about people not liking bolts.
As long as it's your land, you're entitled to your opinion. On public lands (where most of the best climbing is), this attitude leads to climbers getting shafted by other users who dislike semi-permanent, visible impacts on the rock, whether hikers or old trads.
Bolts are expensive (plan on $4-$10 per placement, plus drill bits).
Bolts are highly visible (unless painted to match the rock).
Bolts are often unethical (often unjustified, and sometimes illegal).
In reply to: Who's to say that were not supposed to bolt rock so that more people can safely climb it.
It's plenty easy to say that bolts are just swell, if it's not a route that you led the first ascent of on gear, and the bolts weren't paid for out of your pocket. But then your opinion doesn't mean an awful lot in that case, now does it?
T0, or thereabouts. But worth responding to anyways, if only preemptively.
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kalcario
Nov 16, 2003, 3:15 AM
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Biggest ego-statement route OF ALL TIME? Easy: the Bachar-Yerian. He even named it after himself.
Run-out death routes are all about CONTRIVED difficulty, sport routes UNcontrived difficulty.
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rockfax
Nov 16, 2003, 4:18 AM
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I like bolts and sport climbing has done much for climbing.
Still....I'd like to see fewer of them.....I bet I'm not the only one.
It's about subtlety (very hard to get) and diversity.
Mick
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karl_hungus
Nov 16, 2003, 4:54 AM
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In reply to: the collective consciousness of the 70's crowd .... remains strong and alive and, perhaps, for some of us, a little bitter.
Get over it.
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rockfax
Nov 16, 2003, 4:06 PM
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In reply to: How about this theory: 1st Ascentionists are people willing to go through the learning curve of putting up routes, and have the balls and fortitude to stick it out in spite of critics. The people out on a limb are always the ones on the receiving end of the pot shots, and it has been so since the dawn of time.
Aaron you are forever elevating the first ascensionist, and that's fine. In the first guidebook I ever wrote 15 years ago I dedicated to the first ascensionist.
The climbing community has a lot to thank them for.
However, they also have great responsibility, and just because they are out there "doing it" doesn't absolve them from that responsibility, or criticism for that matter (the "chest-beaters" don't oftem take that well).
Some accept this responsibility....e.g., Ward Smith and team at Rumney..look at the great thought that someone like Greg Barnes puts in to his first ascents..many others don't and are continually making a mess of the sacred rock.
Mick
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climbdoof
Nov 16, 2003, 5:28 PM
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i think it should be up to the individual who first ascends a climb should choose wether it should be bolted or not and if some body after the fact decides to bolt i think the the original climber has the right to chop those bolts
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boltdude
Nov 16, 2003, 5:32 PM
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Everyone can do better, I've messed up more than a few routes and bolted where I shouldn't have. I've removed some of my own bolts. The best lesson I've learned is to think long and hard before taking out the hammer & drill.
But we should keep things in perspective. Some places are better for sport development than others - a few places will even be greatly improved for having sport climbing come in, just look at the trashed out, shot up places like New Jack City that have been massively cleaned up by climbers. And even in the most pristine mountains, as long as the sport routes aren't right next to trails or meadows or sensitive wildlife & plants, we're talking a few little pieces of metal that could rapidly be eliminated by climbers if needed.
More to the issue is climbing ethics. Climbing challenges are equally physical and psychological. Too many bolts, or adding bolts to exisiting climbs (retrobolting), and that's unfairly cheating other climbers out of the psychological challenges. Saying that others can "skip the bolts" is BS, if you can get pro, it completely changes the dynamics of running it out on lead. I have no problem with sport climbing, and I have no problem with psychological test pieces. Don't chop a sport climb, and don't go retrobolt a runout.
Think before you drill. Land managers could ban new bolts, and may well do so in the near future. We're on the radar screen now, take it seriously.
Greg
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bvb
Nov 17, 2003, 6:47 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: the collective consciousness of the 70's crowd .... remains strong and alive and, perhaps, for some of us, a little bitter. Get over it.
get over what? i'm kickin' it at a five star crag you'll never see with friends i've been climbing with for three decades, doing what we do best -- having fun.
carve out your own little home in the continuum and stay there, junior. don't give me a thought. just color me gone.
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dingus
Nov 17, 2003, 7:55 PM
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In reply to: I like bolts and sport climbing has done much for climbing. Still....I'd like to see fewer of them.....I bet I'm not the only one. It's about subtlety (very hard to get) and diversity. Mick
What are your thoughts as to the impact of extensive guide book publishing of heretofore undocumented areas (yours and others).
I'm told that skiing used to be like climbing in that it was a very loose sport with practioners often doing their own thing unaware of the goings on in other parts of the world. The start of Mammoth serves as a great example.
Then came resort skiing. Then came the professionals. The case has been made that the arise of the professional class in skiing 'turned the corner' on commercialism and gave us what we have in skiing today.
Now of course there is nothing in even the same universe of climbing in terms of money, but the underlying principle remains the same.
Climbing professionals = people who make their livings off of the climbing world.
These folks, in order to make a living, have to cater to specific groups, such as noobs, guide clients, retail consumers, etc. As much as I owe my own career to professional climbers, I also see the direct connection between these professionals and the changes our sport has undergone.
For example, if Euro climbing comps and magazines had not promoted the sport climbing ethic, our climbing world would look far different now. I feel that professional climbers encouraged the new direction, not as some massive right wing conspiracy, but simply to make money incrementally, as they went along (pics, stories, guide books, new routes to get noticed, sponsorship, etc.)
Blaming our current situation on the bolts themselves totally misses the point. You started to mention it in your orginal post with consumerism.
Didn't your company do a guide to Rumney? How does that guide, specifically, fit in with your philosophy? Do you feel the guide has encouraged or discouraged future bolting at Rumney and elsewhere?
Cheers
DMT
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hello_heino
Nov 17, 2003, 8:18 PM
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In reply to: Has climbing adopted the crassness of consumerism and over-consumption of mainstream American society? Mick
Yes. And it was a planned strategy.
It's not the money.
It's the money.
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rockfax
Nov 17, 2003, 8:47 PM
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I agree with you DMT.....the reporting of the activities of climbers does propogate those activities.
There's a long list of people, organisations, and companies that have either directly or indirectly promoted climbing and promoted certain types of climbing.
Must admit, I'm one of them.
Kehl's ascent does stimulate a dialogue on bolts but "The Bachar-Yerian" in my opinion, is more influential.....what I fantastic climb, although I'll never do it.....irespective of how it was established, who climbed it, their motivation and its name (although all these are interesting)....just amazing. A testpiece for generations of climbers to come, to test their metal on.
Mick
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karlbaba
Nov 18, 2003, 1:51 AM
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In my mind, it's all about moderation and putting up routes that are somehow "appropriate" to their location, it's traditions and issues.
The general public doesn't know or notice if a bolted pitch has 6 bolts or 14. The impacts on trails, visitation and vegetation are much more significant.
For those who want to glorify headpointing and soloing (and I solo quite a bit) beware! A death or serious injury or two can negatively impact access faster than dozens of bolts.
Peace
karl
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bvb
Nov 18, 2003, 2:57 AM
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In reply to: Biggest ego-statement route OF ALL TIME? Easy: the Bachar-Yerian. He even named it after himself. Run-out death routes are all about CONTRIVED difficulty, sport routes UNcontrived difficulty.
jesus fucking christ. even the people with a jillion posts and presumably some knowledge of climbing devolve into full-blown fucking n00b status when they log onto this site.
so, you actually think bachar and dave got together and said, "hey, let's name this route the bachar-yerian"?
and i supppose you also belive that walter bonatti, after spending umpteen days soloing a most incredible route in chamonix, got off it and said "gee, i think i'll name this route the bonatti pillar"?
hint: know your history before you spray. problem is, this site is so full of air headed jackoffs that nobody has any idea when someone is talking out their ass. i've watched in amazed silence as threads go on for page after page after page on a topic which none of the participants know anything about, but they certainly do write with great authority.
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pywiak
Nov 18, 2003, 3:57 AM
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In reply to: so, you actually think bachar and dave got together and said, "hey, let's name this route the bachar-yerian"?
The B-Y was definitely a JB spray "statement", an exemplar of what drug abuse can do to the judgement of a talented individual with an over-developed sense of self. John plastered his name on it because of pride in his "accomplishment" at deliberately running it out between aid bolt stances (except on the first pitch where the second clip was placed while standing on the first, followed by a death runout to the belay). The location of some of the placements puts the belayer at risk of serious injury in the event of a failure by the leader. In retrospect, the "statement" seems conflicted: establish the line from the ground up (cheers!), but use aid for the pro (boo-hiss!), then run it out needlessly and recklessly (boo-hiss!) to minimize the hole count (cheers!).
Dave got suckered into belay duty, which, given the anchor hardware used, was likely more dangerous than front-line combat. I'm pretty sure it wasn't his idea to put his name on the route.
The end result was an incredible passage of free-climbing (courtesy of God, who made the stone) with a poorly designed and implemented protection system (courtesy of an imperfect man). It is a shame it turned out the way it did - it could've been so much better.
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jgardnerphoto
Nov 18, 2003, 4:11 AM
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I'm going to have to agree with Sherman's point of view, If you want to chase pure difficulty just toprope the damn thing (if you don't have to stop and clip, then you can climb at least a grade harder right?) or better yet go bouldering. Climbing is losing it's most important aspect, challenge and adventure. I'm not saying that deathroutes are a must, but if someone wants to climb it, sweet. Doesn't mean it ever needs a repeat, also doesn't mean that it ever should get bolts so that it can get a repeat. A friend of mine recently told me after a night pulling plastic at a friends home wall, "I miss long and painful approaches to do a route that is equally long and painful." And it made me realize, climbing may be popular and people may want a safe sport...but does that give anyone the right to permantly destroy an unrenewable resource to make it safe? Furthermore, I have met more people that have been injured in gyms and on sport climbings than anyone else, makes you wonder who knows what they're doing? Climbing is a beautiful thing, a crag that is swarmed with people hanging on bolts every 4 feet compounded with spraylords on the ground screaming beta and trying to keep all of their dogs from destroying everything in sight is not. All other outdoor sports preach leave no trace, why are we the only group to get away with breaking this ethic?
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bvb
Nov 18, 2003, 4:24 AM
Post #68 of 75
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[quote="pywiak]The B-Y was definitely a JB spray "statement", an exemplar of what drug abuse can do to the judgement of a talented individual with an over-developed sense of self.
alan, please. i'm recalling a certain climbing magazine article you penned entitled "in the path of the master" or words to that effect. in this article you speak of the B-Y as one of the penultimate achievements in american climbing, and bachar as a pivotal figure in american climbing history. i still beleive what you wrote was essentailly true.
of course, that was before sport climbing, and now you've flipped you position on the whole B-Y thing. you have always taken extreme positions on climbing issues, ever since day one, going on 30-odd years ago. your latest set of climbing ethics is merely the latest in an evolving progression of viewpoints. what'll it be 10 years from now? i guess we'll both have to wait and see.....
in any case, your recollection on how the B-Y got it name may be better than mine, but my memory is that people just started calling it that, and the name stuck.
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dingus
Nov 18, 2003, 4:39 AM
Post #69 of 75
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In reply to: Must admit, I'm one of them.
And of course I don't begrudge you a living. Was mighty glad to plunk down for a couple of your products mate.
DMT
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dingus
Nov 18, 2003, 4:45 AM
Post #70 of 75
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In reply to: The B-Y was definitely a JB spray "statement", an exemplar of what drug abuse can do to the judgement of a talented individual with an over-developed sense of self.
Whoa. Remind me never to piss you off.
This prompts an idea for a potentially interesting thread. Ta ta. See you at the races.
DMT
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soccer_fan
Nov 18, 2003, 4:52 AM
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Hmm to bolt or not to bolt... everybody in this discussion needs to read "By Fair Means" in Alpinist #3.
I'm not to the ability that I'm going to be going around FA'ing routes and putting the bolts in, but there are certainly lines that need to be bolted, and there are lines that should stay gear only. As far as I know properly set gear (bomber hexes, cams in splitter cracks, etc) are nearly as safe as bolts and routes that take the gear should stay that way IMO.
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alpnclmbr1
Nov 18, 2003, 5:05 AM
Post #72 of 75
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In reply to: The B-Y was definitely a JB spray "statement", an exemplar of what drug abuse can do to the judgement of a talented individual with an over-developed sense of self. (snip) It is a shame it turned out the way it did - it could've been so much better.
I have to say that I find it interesting that someone who took it upon himself to "fix" what he perceived to be the shortcomings of one of the greatest routes of all time would make statements like these.
Who has the greater "overdeveloped sense of self", the person who puts a route up or the person who tries to redesign someone else's route in a manner that suits himself?
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dirko
Nov 18, 2003, 5:33 AM
Post #73 of 75
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Re: Bachar-Yerian
I think that it is generally accepted to bolt sparsely to improve the aethetics of a route. I think it is pretty juvenile bolt sparsely because of your ego. The issue is not black-or-white, and with B-Y there are more factors here than those two, but what turns me off most about R-rated routes (which I occaisionally climb) is when they are put up as a response to the small-dick syndrome.
Some of my favorite routes are clean. Some of my favorite routes are over-bolted. Am I a hypocrite?
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bvb
Nov 18, 2003, 6:22 AM
Post #74 of 75
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In reply to: Who has the greater "overdeveloped sense of self", the person who puts a route up or the person who tries to redesign someone else's route in a manner that suits himself?
touche and amen.
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dingus
Nov 18, 2003, 5:16 PM
Post #75 of 75
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In reply to: The B-Y was definitely a JB spray "statement", an exemplar of what drug abuse can do to the judgement of a talented individual with an over-developed sense of self
Hey pywiak,
So did you ever go retrobolt your death routes on the side of Fairview?
DMT
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