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usmc_2tothetop
Mar 18, 2004, 10:11 PM
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Ok stupid question. Maybe I have the wrong perception. I was reading some info on one of the pro athletes I believe it was John Gill who I'm in awe of. He was stating the levels of hiking or climbing from 1 to 6, 1= a modest hike, 2=challenging hike, 3=scramble, then rope comes into play it got to the 5 and explained how they branch off 5.6, 5.10b, etc, and 6= aid climbing. What exactly are the characteristics of aid climbing and what sets it apart from the rest? Thanks in advance
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skiclimb
Mar 18, 2004, 10:19 PM
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1 through 6 still applies and you have it basically correct. 5 is freeclimbing where the rope and gear is only used to protect from a fall...aid climbing encompasses using the gear as a hold or attachement point to support weight and upward progress ...it has become fairly sophisticated compared to early days...but that's the concept.
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coclimber26
Mar 18, 2004, 10:38 PM
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Aid climbing isn't classified 6.1 or 6.2. It is classified with a letter and number. Traditionally A0-A5. A meaning aid. A0 would be pulling on a piece of protection to pass a hard section of free climbing, also known as "French Freeing". A1 would be easy aiding with good placements using aiders and little risk of a large fall...the aid climbing gets progressively harder up to A5 where there are large fall potentials on body weight only pieces. You may also see a C rating C1-5 means clean aid where a hammer is not needed. Most A ratings now mean you must use a hammer to place pitons or heads. You may also see a C2F or similar. This means the aid climbing can be done clean because of fixed protection. If the fixed protection is missing then the route may be harder.
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usmc_2tothetop
Mar 18, 2004, 10:39 PM
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Ok so basically aside from climbing in one blow (multi-pitch or not you top out boom and your done.) Aid would be where you take your time, carry lots of gear, use of ascenders, set ups of portaledges, and can last for more then one day. So it's kind of like hiking and camping on the side of a wall. Am I close?
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iamthewallress
Mar 18, 2004, 10:42 PM
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In reply to: Ok so basically aside from climbing in one blow (multi-pitch or not you top out boom and your done.) Aid would be where you take your time, carry lots of gear, use of ascenders, set ups of portaledges, and can last for more then one day. So it's kind of like hiking and camping on the side of a wall. Am I close?
It can be that, but it can also be when you take tension at each of the hard moves on a top rope to reach the anchors.
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usmc_2tothetop
Mar 18, 2004, 10:43 PM
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Oh ok. Do alot of people apose aid because of defacing the rock?
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maculated
Mar 18, 2004, 10:43 PM
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Aid climbing is vertical backpacking, more or less.
Class 6 is sort of theoretical. If you look at older material before the
"A" and "C" system, you'll see occasional references to Class 6 climbs. It wouldn't really make sense, though, as Grade 5 is technical climbing, and covers overhanging. Aid just links up a bunch hard Grade 5s.
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usmc_2tothetop
Mar 18, 2004, 10:45 PM
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If it also means that why do they have aid rated at 6 as if it is harder or more skilled.
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vegastradguy
Mar 18, 2004, 10:48 PM
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no, i wouldnt say theres alot of opposition to aid climbing. probably more respect for those who undertake it than opposition. many walls these days go 'clean' so it doesnt deface the rock. there are those climbs that dont go clean, where pitons are needed, and there is some debate over the use of pitons because they scar the rock...and there's certainly issues of fixed pro, bolting aid lines, etc...
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coylec
Mar 18, 2004, 10:54 PM
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In reply to: Ok so basically aside from climbing in one blow (multi-pitch or not you top out boom and your done.) Aid would be where you take your time, carry lots of gear, use of ascenders, set ups of portaledges, and can last for more then one day. So it's kind of like hiking and camping on the side of a wall. Am I close?
No. Aid climbing is climbing that utilizes anything other than natural rock to make progress up the wall. There are one pitch aid climbs that can be done in a (relatively) short period of time.
You can take your time, carry lots of gear, setup portaledges and last for more than one day free-climbing. Big wall climbing is characterized (partially) by what you have said, but it not necessary aid (though for many it involves aid).
Aid is simply using stuff other than rock to move up. It gets really complicated when you looking at all the stuff (hundreds of piton types, heads, bashies, mashies, nuts, hexes, sliding nuts, hooks, cams, bros, et al)
You may be conflating the yosemite RATING system (1 - 6 grading system) with the GRADING system. While the rate of a climb indictates its difficulty, the grade of a climb indictates its time commitment: Grade I are single pitch climbs, Grade III is multiple pitchs (usu. most of a day), Grade IV is all day (if you're quick), Grade V is 2 - 3 nights, Grade VI means most parties will spend more than three days. Some people will spend weeks on a wall, while others will speed through the same ascent.
coylec
ps - its always considered to be in the "best style" as i've heard it described, to do a route as clean as possible.
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iamthewallress
Mar 18, 2004, 10:57 PM
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In reply to: Aid climbing is vertical backpacking, more or less. Class 6 is sort of theoretical. If you look at older material before the "A" and "C" system, you'll see occasional references to Class 6 climbs. It wouldn't really make sense, though, as Grade 5 is technical climbing, and covers overhanging. Aid just links up a bunch hard Grade 5s.
I don't follow you here.
Wall climbing (Grade V or VI's) and aid climbing (6th Class) are not synonymous.
Aid climbing means weighting your gear to make upward progress. That can be pulling on one piece of gear or doing a penji on an otherwise free route (i.e. 5.10 A0), it can be a single pitch (Grade I) A4+ seam, or it can be a Grade VI that might have gone at 5.4 if you hadn't chosen to aid it.
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drkodos
Mar 18, 2004, 11:00 PM
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In reply to: no, i wouldnt say theres alot of opposition to aid climbing. probably more respect for those who undertake it than opposition. many walls these days go 'clean' so it doesnt deface the rock. there are those climbs that dont go clean, where pitons are needed, and there is some debate over the use of pitons because they scar the rock...and there's certainly issues of fixed pro, bolting aid lines, etc...
The general publics knows no distinctions in climbing.
Aid climbing was bada$$ 20 years ago, but today, it is the realm of the wannbee greenhorns that don't have the nads to free climb hard stuff.
Sure, there are still some stout hard people putting up tough aid pieces, but slogging up trade routes can be learned by anyone these days.
No one has to go through paying their dues anyomore.
The secrets have all been revealed.
The gear is so technologically advanced, a monkey can be trained to place A1/C1 to A3/C3.
The learning curve has been so flattened as to be a barely noticeable molehill. It is easy to get started, and easy to do. All it takes is a little money for gear, and some time to give it a go.
Anyone with the inclination and or desires can get the feck up a wall on aid.
Doing so as a freeclimber is a completely different realm.
The chasm between the two is vast, and geting larger each day as aid becomes easier. However, aid climbers refuse to or cannot acknowledge it publically.
But, in the deepest bowels of the inner psyche, they know the truth.
We all do.
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timpanogos
Mar 18, 2004, 11:37 PM
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Golly Doctor!
Ya hurt my feelings, I’m gonna gather up my 50 pounds of $3k worth of toys and go play somewhere else!
Chad
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maculated
Mar 18, 2004, 11:41 PM
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In reply to: I don't follow you here. Wall climbing (Grade V or VI's) and aid climbing (6th Class) are not synonymous.
Ick, my terminology was bad.
Class = 1, 2, 3, 4, 5.x, 6, etc
Grade = I, II, III, IV, V, VI
I don't believe you can create a 6th Class climb. The theory behind the class system isn't method of ascent, but terrain, right?
1st class is sidewalk. 5th class is technical climbing. I have climbed 5.10 and it has been aid. It didn't become 6th class because I pulled on gear to get up it.
Since 1-5 class sort of shows how steep the terrain gets, it would have been more prudent to introduce 6 as overhang rather than aid, right?
That's why I consider class 6 to be an obsolete and incorrect term.
Better? :)
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usmc_2tothetop
Mar 18, 2004, 11:42 PM
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I hope to someday have the experience to do big wall. I'm sure the exposure is an unforgetable and an unexplainable feeling. I think the one thing I need to remember is, as I evolve in my love for this sport, not to take things for granted and keep respect for the sport. The last thing I wanna be is some loud greenhorn who thinks he can chip away what he wants and knowing all from the plastic at the gym. I would like to base my success not on my rated achievments but on the mental gratification that all I need is the solitude and independant confidence. climbing is my escape and self reward. When newbies at the gym comment on my talent I explain to them that I'm in the same catagory as them and I still have so much to learn.
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maculated
Mar 18, 2004, 11:44 PM
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Kodos,
That's quite a pathetic post up there. Tongue-in-cheek or not, this is not the kind of impression I'd like to give our newer members. I say this as a mod.
I say this as not a mod: Read "Looking for Mo." Tell me it doesn't take balls. It hurts, it's scary, and its committing. I love trad routes (and not hard ones because I am always so concerned that I might fall and hurt my uterus) but aid has its appeal too. Both allow me to foray where I might not otherwise go, and each has its mental duress.
I heart the climbing, and I heart the cams. A #4 came in the mail today! YAY!
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drkodos
Mar 19, 2004, 12:09 AM
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In reply to: Kodos, That's quite a pathetic post up there. Tongue-in-cheek or not, this is not the kind of impression I'd like to give our newer members. I say this as a mod. I say this as not a mod: Read "Looking for Mo." Tell me it doesn't take balls. It hurts, it's scary, and its committing. I love trad routes (and not hard ones because I am always so concerned that I might fall and hurt my uterus) but aid has its appeal too. Both allow me to foray where I might not otherwise go, and each has its mental duress. I heart the climbing, and I heart the cams. A #4 came in the mail today! YAY!
T'was not tongue in cheek, but my actual thought on the state of todays' aid climbing scene.
I doubt that anyone with more than 20 walls of experience under their belt would disagree. If so, I encourage them to engage me in discourse without resort to calling me pathetic. But I will take on that challenge as well. I stand by my statements, and allow others to disagree.
However, next time I would prefer to rhetoricaly enagage someone using something other than a set of hurt feelings with which to attack my position.
Allow people to have disagreements without personalizing things. Or is it the new direction of the site to only post with a psychophantic reply?
This is a great illustration of the potential problem when mods enter the fray. They get their feelings hurt and then respond with a personal attack (like any other user?!). Then if I defend or counter too strongly, I run the danger of having other mods defend their brethren just based on boundaries. It is most often a lose/lose situation.
Instead of fighting with you about my opinions and my priviledges of expressing them, I suggest you re-read my original post with the knowledge that it was not aimed you. However should you find that the shoe fits, I am always happy to recommend other quality footwear as well.
It should be clear that these are my opinions.
I am not an official member of the site. In the sense that I am not a mod or admin or anything that represents an official line of thought, editorial process, or general reflection of the sitie's attitudes.
I am just a regular and registered user (albeit it a highly prodigious and prolific one on both the hard climbing front and the insane-amount-of-time-spent-here-front).
In my original post I stated the majority. I use words such as most.
Majority means more than half. It does not mean all. I feel that the general amount of greenness and gumbism it is closer to 90 percent, but that is open to argument.
Statistics published on this site state that 50 percent of todays climbers have two years experience or less. Do you dispute that as well?
I did not get into YOUR intentions, for I do not know them.
As for the beginners on this site, why not let them see reality, instead of some sanitized version of it.
IS the site going to have a:
Sanitized For Your Protection Sticker attached now?
".....spare me your poisioness, personal barbs, Major West."
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doki
Mar 19, 2004, 12:19 AM
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kodos:
Aid climbing was bada$$ 20 years ago, but today, it is the realm of the wannbee greenhorns that don't have the nads to free climb hard stuff.
Do you think that the pin scar didnt help you guy's to get up in any (BIG WALL) trade routes by freeing it? Tell me now?
Attention free climber PIN SCAR is OFF dont jam your two,three finger on it!!! I'm in the wrong crowd!!!! :arrow:
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the_antoon
Mar 19, 2004, 12:34 AM
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In reply to: ...Since 1-5 class sort of shows how steep the terrain gets, it would have been more prudent to introduce 6 as overhang rather than aid, right?...
The Yosemite Decimal System was not created in regards to the steepness of the terrain It had to do with the difficulty of the terrain.
The Yosemite decimal system actually started out having only 5.1-5.9. 5.9 was the hardest, anything harder (impossible to climb without the use of gear) was rated a 6 (aid climbing). Well people kept climbing harder and more aggresive routes which lead to the expansion of grade 5. Now we have 5.10, 5.11, 5.12, etc. As people kept climbing more aggresive routes, the 6th grade began to fade because a lot of climbers could climb what most considered to be a grade 6 (impossible). For some reason they decided that because somebody potentially COULD climb the route, it was not a grade 6. So until someone does climb it, we will call it grade A.
I have spoken.
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doki
Mar 19, 2004, 12:36 AM
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I forgot! 20 yrs. ago aid climber are bada$$ and they free climb hard! Harder than anyone else here! Free climb hard stuff w/out sticky shoes! Thats Hard!
Anyone have nad's to free climb herd stuff with their army boots!!!
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drkodos
Mar 19, 2004, 12:36 AM
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In reply to: kodos: Aid climbing was bada$$ 20 years ago, but today, it is the realm of the wannbee greenhorns that don't have the nads to free climb hard stuff. Do you think that the pin scar didnt help you guy's to get up in any (BIG WALL) trade routes by freeing it? Tell me now? Attention free climber PIN SCAR is OFF dont jam your two,three finger on it!!! I'm in the wrong crowd!!!! :arrow:
Of course the pin scar helped.
But I don't think Hybrid Aliens existed.
My man: My Best time (out of 3 ascents) of the Nose (2 days) is wussified compared to Hardings original ascent. Agreed?
Doing that sheet first is more hard core....agreed?
Doing it for the 50th ascent in 1975 is more hardcore than the 10.000th ascent in 2000 whatever...agreed?
Not having one's hand held by the likes of a Passthespringloadedcammingdevices is more bada$$ than having it held...agree on that one as well?
How many people free climb Moonlight Buttress?
How many aid it?
Are you telling me that my aid ascent of it is as Bada$S as someones free ascent of it?
Deal with it people.....
Do not look into mirrors if you can't take the eyes looking back at you.
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doki
Mar 19, 2004, 12:39 AM
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I forgot! 20 yrs. ago aid climber are bada$$ and they free climb hard! Harder than anyone else here! Free climb hard stuff w/out sticky shoes! Thats Hard!
Anyone have nad's to free climb hard stuff with their army boots!!!
You better stop talking and climb!!! PEACE!!!!!!!!!!!
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maculated
Mar 19, 2004, 12:44 AM
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I've edited this because I do not want to get into a flame war.
In reply to: I doubt that anyone with more than 20 walls of experience under their belt would disagree. If so, I encourage them to engage me in discourse without resort to calling me pathetic. But I will take on that challenge as well. I stand by my statements, and allow others to disagree. . . This is a great illustration of the potential problem when mods enter the fray. They get their feelings hurt and then respond with a personal attack (like any other user?!). Then if I defend or counter too strongly, I run the danger of having other mods defend their brethren just based on boundaries. It is most often a lose/lose situation.
Don't pull the mod card. Anytime you disagree with me you going to worry about my mod friends running in to ban you? They might agree with YOU. I am so tired of the mods versus users thing. Keep pulling it and see where it gets you: nowhere. I won't play.
In fact, to use your own phrasing: "I encourage users to engage me in discourse without resort to playing the mod card."
My mod statement stands. I don't think that saying that it anyone can do it is something you should say to any newbie, be it sport, trad, bouldering, aid, or basket weaving. I'm an idealist in some respects and in the climbing world, I like to allow eager folk the chance to try stuff out without running up against negativity. This person is interested in aid. Yay for them! Welcome to the wonderful world of climbing! As long as you're getting up high, I salute you!
The rest of it is my own personal opinion. Are my feelings hurt? Do you honestly think that your opinion is going to stop me from doing an aid route tomorrow or the next day? Am I cowering in the corner? Nope.
In reply to: Instead of fighting with you about my opinions and my priviledges of expressing them, I suggest you re-read my original post with the knowledge that it was not aimed you. However should you find that the shoe fits, I am always happy to recommend other quality footwear as well.
Kodos, look at the ticklist I have on this site. I don't climb hard. I physically can't ever climb hard. But I don't aid climb because I have to do something other than twiddle my thumbs when I run out of 5.10s. I didn't take your comment personally even if you wish that I did.
In reply to: As for the beginners on this site, why not let them see reality, instead of some sanitized version of it.
How about letting them make up their own minds, Rogerian style? Or would you like to claim that YOU KNOW ALL AND SEE ALL?
I'm out.
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jello
Mar 19, 2004, 12:51 AM
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DRKODOS, Aliens are not just used by aid climbers...........Duh! I'm sure your not up on the rock holding a stance, steel protection dangeling off your gear sling, hammer in hand trying to place some pro. :shock: All climbers benefit equally from technology. Oh yeah, I don't think any REAL monkey would even need to place pro on most free climbs. :lol:
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usmc_2tothetop
Mar 19, 2004, 12:57 AM
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Wow I really sparked something here. I will say this.
drkodos wrote: "As for the beginners on this site, why not let them see reality, instead of some sanitized version of it."
I think peoples views are interesting as well.
yea there are some newbies giving climbing a bad name...hopefully I'm not one of them.
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drkodos
Mar 19, 2004, 1:01 AM
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In reply to: DRKODOS, Aliens are not just used by aid climbers...........Duh! I'm sure your not up on the rock holding a stance, steel protection dangeling off your gear sling, hammer in hand trying to place some pro. :shock: All climbers benefit equally from technology. Oh yeah, I don't think any REAL monkey would even need to place pro on most free climbs. :lol:
No crap.
Free climbing is easier today as well.
Did i sat it was not?
I climb much harder routes today because of the tech....duh. I use all kinds of gear to PROTECT free climbing moves.
BUT I CLIMB THEM!!!!
Pulling on gear is pulling in gear.
"Nice Hook Gaston!"
"AWESOME CAM LIEBACK!"
"Killer Etrier High Step-bro"
Excuse me but the cutting edge happens to be freeing Aid routes, not aiding them, folks.
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drkodos
Mar 19, 2004, 1:03 AM
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If I am wrong just ignore me. Saying it doen't make it so, you threatened little......
Until then, which one of you that is arguing me has 20 or more aid WALLSs under their belt?
Huh?
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bigwalling
Mar 19, 2004, 1:10 AM
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Dr, I agree mostly with you. Climbing up to A3 is easier than climbing 5.10 for sure. But bashing peoples dreams and goals is just lame, even if they are easier than they were before.
I know some pretty good free climbers who have done tons of FFA of aid routes. By what you are saying I hope you have done the same. Do you free run-out 13 trad? I doubt it, cause most climbers that good don't diss others goals and achivements at least not the guys I know.
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usmc_2tothetop
Mar 19, 2004, 1:10 AM
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drkodos- what do you like about aid? Have you done multi day (overnight[portaledge]) climbs. I have done solo camping trips which I know is nothing like it but the solitude is awesome and quite the lesson.
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usmc_2tothetop
Mar 19, 2004, 1:16 AM
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right now I'm an indoor 5.9+ so I'm nowhere near being ready for aid or bigwall but its a future goal.
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drkodos
Mar 19, 2004, 1:16 AM
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In reply to: drkodos- what do you like about aid? Have you done multi day (overnight[portaledge]) climbs. I have done solo camping trips which I know is nothing like it but the solitude is awesome and quite the lesson.
I have done as aid routes:
11 Trips up el Cap
3 Trips up Half Dome
5 Trips Up Washington Column
9 routes in Zion
6 Routes on Looking Glass
4 routes in New Hampshire
I have sleep on the wall over 100 days.
I have done over 30 other shorter aid climbs. Unfortunately, I was never a speed merchant so I have spent too much time up in the great lonesome.
It is a dysfucntionalist's dream world up there.
I have even slept on the ledges at the gunks, just to fecking do it.
Why do you ask?
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drkodos
Mar 19, 2004, 1:24 AM
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Here is my challenge.
Take me up on this one:
Come to Vegas. We will do both Rainbow Wall Original Route as an aide route, then we will hop on Cloud Tower.
Then I'll let you tell me which one is tougher. Which one takes the greater skills and abilties to do. Which one is closer to the essence of what climbing should be.
I will be here.
Anyone with gentalia enough is welcome to take me up on it and prove me wrong.
Until then, stay on the porches of life, little pups.
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usmc_2tothetop
Mar 19, 2004, 1:28 AM
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I think you answered as to why I asked. (gunks) "just to do it" People ask me why I would go camping by myself....just to do it. The solitude does something for me. It recenters me. Then I go back to my 9 to 5 and Iam reminded of all the unecessary bullshit.
When ever I picture a big wall project I picture el cap. The solitude I had, felt awesome but when your 1000's of feet up I'm sure it's a different kind of solitude. Think of how many people will never experience that. Granted there are many people who should not due to the fact of there lack of appreciation.
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jello
Mar 19, 2004, 1:40 AM
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:shock: look at those eyes :shock: :lol: No offense, but I don't rope up with people who have steroid rage. :lol:
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drkodos
Mar 19, 2004, 1:41 AM
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Well since that ain't me, pick your next available excuse.
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usmc_2tothetop
Mar 19, 2004, 1:43 AM
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See you all tomorrow.
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epic_ed
Mar 19, 2004, 4:03 AM
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All right, kodos -- I'll take you up on that lil challenge. But what does Cloud Tower go at? I suck too bad to follow anything over 5.10. :roll:
My problem with your statement is you're trying to define my climbing experience for me. It's not about what's harder or which type of climbing is most proud. I'm a guy of very limited physical talent and even less sack. Solo aiding presents it's own challenges and rewards for me and it has nothing to do with the goals you have for yourself for climbing. I set my own goals. I define my own experiences. I conquer my own demons. Let me have my victories how I would have them. You can have yours however you wish.
Ed
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drkodos
Mar 19, 2004, 4:23 AM
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In reply to: All right, kodos -- I'll take you up on that lil challenge. But what does Cloud Tower go at? I suck too bad to follow anything over 5.10. :roll: My problem with your statement is you're trying to define my climbing experience for me. It's not about what's harder or which type of climbing is most proud. I'm a guy of very limited physical talent and even less sack. Solo aiding presents it's own challenges and rewards for me and it has nothing to do with the goals you have for yourself for climbing. I set my own goals. I define my own experiences. I conquer my own demons. Let me have my victories how I would have them. You can have yours however you wish. Ed
Cloud Tower goes at 5.11+
I am not defining your experience for you. I am defining my experiences.
I have done both.
It is much easier to get off a couch a climb a Trade route such as Space Shot on aid than it is to send Astroman clean. C'mon. That does not define anything other than reality. The fact that 10x as many people aid trade routes than even attempt to free climb Astroman suggest that I may be onto something. I seem to recall magazine covers touting the freeing of aid climbs, not vice versa.
Feel free to say the same as free climbing. Many people do. I hear Kalcario and jt512 rip trad all the time and it never threatens me. It is their opinions. Their statements do not change the way I feel and if my statements make the way you or someone else feels than I suggest the ideas were built on shaky foundations.
I never said it wasn't fun or you should not do it.
But I will say this now: It is not fun for me. Nor is it very challenging. Nor is it intellectually stimulating. If you take offense to me feeling that way, I can cope with that.
If one knows their weakness and strengths and are confident in their beliefs, they are not threatened by another person's persectives.
Should I be equally as offended since you do npt share my perspective? Get the point? We are on different sides but only one takes offense at the others stance. I think your argument is 100 percent valid and may hold true for many others as well.
Should I be offended and threatened instead? :wink:
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skiclimb
Mar 19, 2004, 4:26 AM
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Hey DRKodos...I agree with you basically...however A3 does have it's pucker factor most definately.
I love aid and walls because I can do them out of shape..lol..It's a mental game more than a physical one...That and I can smoke cigarettes and drink beers in the middle of a pitche and my belayer won't care cause he's asleep...
Mostly I love walls because they impress me and the vast vertical environment makes me happy...I'm at home there..I don't climb as much for the challenge as for the "being there"...also why I love mountaineering and climbs like Mathis Crest.
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diesel___smoke
Mar 19, 2004, 4:28 AM
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Why, why, why would anyone be interested in a sport designed for oddballs? Doesn't everyone know wall climbers are wack, weird, and drink heavily? Wall climbing sucks, and should interest no one. Stay away, walls are dangerous, boring, and there is never any justified reason to ever desire or attempt to climb one. Leave it for those bizarre, crazy, twisted bastards.
(Damn, I can't wait to get back on a wall...)
_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
What???
Uunngggghhhh...
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holdplease2
Mar 19, 2004, 4:55 AM
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Based on my experience I agree with Kodos...climbing these aid routes now is not what it used to be, thanks to instruction and gear and stuff like Supertopos. Same with free routes. Sending 10s now is not like sending 10s prior to sticky rubber shoes and slcds for the same reason.
And of course, freeing a route will be tougher than aiding it because nothing...uh...aids you.
The way I look at it is: It took me four years to lead 5.9 trad and 4 weeks of practice to solo a wall. For me, thats all I need to know. I don't enjoy one more than the other, however...
* I worked harder to get to 5.9 free climbing as a learning process.
* But t I worked harder to get up moderata aid climbs.
But I have never paid any dues in either one because for every route I had a topo and all the best gear I could buy and sproingy ropes and great belayers.
The only thing that makes the difference of whether or not I get up a climb is the size of the sack I am carrying that day.
But isn't that the way its supposed to be?
Just today, thanks to gear, a smaller sack gets you higher grades than it did 20 years ago.
We need a year-of-ascent multiplier so that we can know when we are as hard as the hardmen. Hrm. 1000 pitches of A9 and I can stand (not beside but) slightly behind boys warren harding? Better start climbing...;)
-Kate.
(edited to remove route name because it isn't so relavent and to correct an incorrect year meant as a benchmark for cams and super-shoes...sorry!)
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epic_ed
Mar 19, 2004, 5:26 AM
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Doc, my point is simple. I'm not in the same league as FAist of years past. Nor am I a hard man. Nor do I have the physical talent or mental toughness to compete with the contemporaries of today. Hell, I barely keep up with my peers. I conceed your point that they were bolder and free climbing hard grades are more challenging than aiding the same climb. But that's completely irrelevant to me. My challenges are much more humble. While I'm more impressed with the Huber's ability to send Zodiac free than I am of all of PTPPs vactions on El Cap combined, none of that means a hill of beans when it comes to my personal reasons for climbing. You say climbing Space Shot is easy. I say, "to whom?" It's still a challenge to me, and one I haven't taken on yet. When I do stand on the top, will you congratulate me, or shrug it off as something anyone could have done and tell me I should have aspire to something greater?
Ed
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epic_ed
Mar 19, 2004, 5:30 AM
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In reply to: Cloud Tower goes at 5.11+
Sounds like a nice aid route to me. :mrgreen:
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drkodos
Mar 19, 2004, 5:42 AM
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Ed, unfortunately, with each ascent, Space Shot becomes closer and closer to being only a steeper version of Angels' Landing Trail, except on a different formation.
By definition, the more poeple that are enable to do something reduces the
uniqueness of it.
If a 5.6 leader is leading 5.6 onsight, my belief is that their experience is every bit as valid as a 5.11 leader onsighting 5.11. If one is at their limits, it matters not where the actual envelope edge is drawn.
It is all relative.
The issue though becomes the blurring of lines and the posturing that takes place.
At this point I do not even remember why I posted in this thread, but it was not to butt heads with you, my friend. You know I respect you.
Let me spin it this way then:
On many levels I think it more of a challenge and greater Kudos are afforded when people that do not do it often end up succeeding despite their limits.
We met some guys coming off Epinephrine the other day. One of them had not climbed in over 5 months and this was the first thing they had done in that period. The took repeated attempts, and finally made it a a one day push that took fourteen hours and almost left them stranded in the desert, without a ride, and benighted with bivy gear. They had sac. These guys were warriors in their own right. They knew what they were doing, they just weren't at the top of their game and they were pushing their limits.
We had the priviledge of giving them a lift and sharing their awesome experience. They were full of the energies that only come from a successful trip into the great "up there". They were humble and forthright and real human beings. Not full of pretense of anything sacrosanct. A real change of pace from the usual fare.
I do not wish to invalidate anyone's efforts, successess or failures, but only keep it all in the proper lenswork.
I too often see people with so little experience being granted mentor status, when they themselves should still be the student in a mentoring program.
As stated in my other threads, times have changed and I change with them, but I like having a true benchmark that does not waffle and grow soft the way many ratings have over the past 15 to 20 years.
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holdplease2
Mar 19, 2004, 5:50 AM
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Seems like "posturing" and "granted status" (mentor status) are important in the discussion here.
Perhaps the irritation is that now folks are respected for doing things that would have been impossible for that same individual in previous times? Perhaps, thereby deminishing the value of the accomplishments of...the past?
And that we gumbies place ourselves on the level of our old-school peers when we repeat their accomplishments but with less difficulty thanks to technology? I can see that.
Like it pisses my dad off that at 25 I made more $$ than he did when he was 50...but those dollars are not the same.
-Kate.
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drkodos
Mar 19, 2004, 6:04 AM
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In reply to: And that we gumbies place ourselves on the level of our old-school peers when we repeat their accomplishments but with less difficulty thanks to technology? I can see that. -Kate.
Articulated very well.
Perhaps, that is much of it for me.
I feel less anger now...... :wink:
But also deep is the general dillution of the whole process. The bringing of it to the masses. The belief that it is something more people need to or should be doing.
The amount of people with less than two years bringing in other newbies is growing exponentially. A major shift in demographics and a watering down of the experience is my major concern, for these two components will do more to lessen climbing opportunites than any other factors.
It has certainly become tragically hip to be a climber.
Now excuse me while I warm up the Navigator. I need to get to Starbucks and drop off the kids at Private School on the way to the crag.... :wink:
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maculated
Mar 19, 2004, 6:11 AM
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In reply to: Now excuse me while I warm up the Navigator. I need to get to Starbucks and drop off the kids at Private School on the way to the crag.... :wink:
:lol: SNORT!!!!
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holdplease2
Mar 19, 2004, 6:17 AM
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I agree, good doctor, with you. And as John (vegastradguy) and I discussed today, we are a bit ashamed that we likely would not have been climbers in the early days. We wouldn't have had the stuff for it and we might not have even thought of it. But we can see the few young climbers in our peer group now who just might have been. They are a different sort.
Ah, to go to sleep and dream of leading on hemp instead of smoking it.
-Kate.
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diesel___smoke
Mar 19, 2004, 6:17 AM
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It's a good thing sodomy laws were deemed unconstitutional for the sake of this thread...
What??????//////
Uunngggghhhhhhhh
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drkodos
Mar 19, 2004, 6:25 AM
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In reply to: Ah, to go to sleep and dream of leading on hemp instead of smoking it. -Kate.
:lol:
I save all my stems and one day I will make a rope out of them. My life's goals are no greater than those of Carl Spangler.....
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vegastradguy
Mar 19, 2004, 7:10 AM
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Would I have been a climber 70 years ago? 30 years ago? 15 years ago? I don't know. I went to Banff last week. The film that was most amazing, and probably the most insane in my mind, was the film on the ascent of the North Face of the Eiger using only clothing and gear available at the time of the first ascent...which was done in 1938. Hemp ropes. Ice pitons, cramp-ons that sort of worked, and boots that werent even in the vicinity of being stiff. They bivied once on the mountain and took no falls. They suffered frostbite on their fingers, but they made it. Those are true hardmen. I looked at my friends, laughed, and said, no thanks, I'll keep my Yates Astroman and nylon rope!
Is this telling about whether I would be a climber? I don't know. Perhaps. But, see, for me, all I know is what is in front of me today. All I know is Yates, BD, Metolius, Petzl, etc.....what if I had lived half a century ago? Would I have tied a bowline around my waist and gone for it? I like to think that I would have. I like to think that I have the spirit of a climber in me, because I'd like to think that's what drives me to climb.
As for the question of aid climbing...I still think it takes more knowledge to do a big wall. There are simply more systems and more variables. However, it is MUCH more accessible than ever before, and it is true that with money and time, anyone can take it up. It is certainly easier to get on C1 than 5.9, but I dont think that its a lesser experience, as long as you take everything into perspective. That said, it still is scary watching those cam lobes expand in the soft sandstone of Zion....course, it's also scary to watch your headlamp fall 1000' to the ground and not touch the rock once.
You know what amazes me about Moonlight Buttress? That people can free climb it. I love that! I LOVE that there are people out there that can walk up to the base of something that most people have to aid and go "I'm gonna climb this without aiding it"....and they do it! One of my dreams is to free the Grand Dihedral of Moonlight Buttress. Why? Because it's the most beautiful 200' of rock I've ever seen. Will I ever accomplish this dream? Don't know. I'm not worried about it right now....
I made a concious decision when I first started climbing that I would climb on my own terms. That I would make my own decisions about how I want to proceed in this sport. For me, it's paid off. I've been humbled, I've been awed, and most of all, I've learned the history and culture of this thing we call climbing. I know its deep roots, and I try to keep that in perspective whenever I am climbing. I try to remember that these routes that we're out climbing were done before I was born. Before any of this cool shiny stuff we have now. Because folks, yeah, that climb was easy for you, but think of those who pioneered it. Ever read the history of Black Orpheus in RR? Ever go to Desert Rock and see the original bolts from the climb? Now, ever really think about what it took to do that route in 1979? Now ask yourself...could you do that? Could you look at that wall and go, let's climb that thing and see if we can get to the top...well...what do you think?
I would never presume to place myself on the same level of any of those who came before me. I would like to think, though, that those who came before me respect that I have tried to not win a contest, but to enjoy my time spent on the rock and know that I admire their courage and perserverance for finding and climbing these rocks that we love.
Okay, forgive my musings, it's late and I just felt like typing for a bit. Back to your regularly scheduled programming....
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smithclimber
Mar 19, 2004, 10:35 AM
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In reply to: Same with free routes. Sending 10s now is not like sending 10s 15 years ago for the same reason. Just today, thanks to gear, a smaller sack gets you higher grades than it did 20 years ago.
I disagree. I don't climb any harder today, because of gear improvements, than I did 15 years ago. I do climb higher grades, but it's from time actually spent climbing, not from any gear improvements. You either have the ability to climb a route or you don't. Gear (in freeclimbing) doesn't do the climb for you (with the exception of sticky rubber helping), it merely keeps you off the deck. Ability is what gets you up a climb.
The technology/gear isn't substantially better today than it was 15 or even 20 years ago. Maybe if you compared today with about 25 years ago (before spring loaded cams were available) it would be slightly different.
You really have to look back to the 50s and 60s, to before there was sticky rubber, nuts, hexes, and quality ropes... THEN we are talking about a WHOLE different ball game!
Frost, Robbins, Chounard et. al...... now those guys were something.
Of course, THEY look back and say "Dick Leonard was something", and naturally, they are right.
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usmc_2tothetop
Mar 19, 2004, 2:28 PM
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Makes you wonder...what if the climbers back then who paved the road doing things that wern't even fathomed yet, what if they had the equiptment we have now. I don't even have the full understanding of the birth of this sport and the perseverence of the old greats.
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usmc_2tothetop
Mar 19, 2004, 2:29 PM
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I'll have to look some of these names up on google.
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tedc
Mar 19, 2004, 6:36 PM
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Everyone seems to be forgetting that Harding, Robbins, Frost weren't the only climbers back in the day, just the BEST climbers back in the day. There were plenty of gumbies back then just as there are now. We may forget that fact just because we never hear about the gumby ascents; just like no one will hear about our 2-day C1 ascents of Moonlight Buttress. (Unless they browse the rc.com archives :) ) My parents and many of thier friends fell into this category. I climbed with them when I was 6..7 years old (yeah, like 30 yease ago). Tie your own harness, carabiner brake rappel, leading meant you were the person who got to free solo and trail the rope. Following meant that you got a hip belay from the best stance available up there. The stuff we did was gumby stuff. I was 4th classing most of it by the time I was 10. (Guess who got to be the "leader" then. Thanks dad :shock: ). It is true that we can gumby our way up way cooler stuff these days but other than that I really don't think the "state of climbing" has changed much (except for the SUV factor). First Ascents WERE and ARE the cutting edge. Everything else is just a game to reintroduce a challenge to a route that has been climbed into submission. Nothing makes an ascent more challenging than not knowing if it will go. If you really want to get out of gumby land go do a first ascent at your trad/aid limit. And yes there are plenty out there. And no your Navigator won't get you to the base.
P.S. Gumby is not a derogatory term in this post. For most of us climbing is about FUN not FAME. (That is what rc.com is for :wink: )
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iamthewallress
Mar 19, 2004, 6:56 PM
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Kodos...regarding your Cloud Tower vs. Rainbow Wall challenge...
It's not a fair comparison. The Rainbow Wall is a beginner aid route, whereas the Cloud Tower is not a beginner trad climb (it's not exactly a testpiece either though). I could just as easily say, "Go send the Buffalo Wall and then climb Cat in the Hat and tell me which is harder."
The reason to climb a wall using aid or not, in my mind, is the satisfaction of putting in a bunch of hard work to hang out someplace spectacular, and ideally wake up in that place and go to sleep in that place. The feeling of reaching a summit after spending several days working for it is always greater for me than the feeling of cranking off a hard free pitch, no matter what the difficulty of the wall, although sending a hard pitch is always fun too. If you are distracted by dick measuring when doing either, you are probably not having as much fun as you could be having.
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holdplease2
Mar 19, 2004, 7:11 PM
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Smithclimber:
You are right...I am actually so ill informed that I thought cams came about 15 years ago...I will alter the post to reflect "slcds and stickyrubber climbing shoes."
Thank you for the correction,
-Kate.
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holdplease2
Mar 19, 2004, 7:19 PM
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Yeah, thanks for the reminder, john, when tradguy and I climbed moonlight we were constantly talking about...
"damn! Did you see the tickmarks on that?" "How do you think they get through that pod (top of pitch 4)??" and "man, I would love to come back someday and try to free this pitch!"
And the free moves integrated into the pitches were the scariest parts of the climb because instead of hanging onto our (fairly) bomber gear, we had to climb above it.
Still, I can't wait to gumbify another traderoute. I love it and can't help it, even if it dosn't mean jack to anyone else. I'll try to stay out of the way of more capable people, of course.
-Kate.
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iamthewallress
Mar 19, 2004, 7:22 PM
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In reply to: "damn! Did you see the tickmarks on that?"
Definately example of when the clean aid climbing gumby is behaving in more desireable way than the 5.12 crankin' studmuffin. Tick marks...Yuck!
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timpanogos
Mar 19, 2004, 8:12 PM
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This thread has drifted to a topic, which deserves splitting into “The essence of climbing”. . Drkodos has hit a nerve in some of us. Why do we do it? How do we compare to the hard men of years past? Are new comers actually weak and wrecking things for the old school? Is technology making us weak and less than our forefathers?
Here’s a though on the technology side of the issue:
Go here and see some super hard men of days gone past.
http://www.nps.gov/gosp/tour/trestle.html
These guys hand pick and shoveled the side of the mountain out and filled a huge gully with hand carts. Read the info above the picture, kind of interesting stuff.
Anyway, go here to see the true sissies that followed years after them – these nobodies used gas and steam powered cranes, bulldozers, power tools etc. – real babies compared to the first dudes – there accomplishment was nothing in comparison.
http://www.goldengatebridge.org/photos/history.html
But even these guys were hard men compared to the super technology geeks that put this one together with all the best of modern technology that makes us all such under achievers.
http://www.raileurope.com/...l_tunnel_diagram.htm
Maybe there is something to using past performance to gauge present achievements that continues to drive us to continuing the downward trend of becoming totally useless human beings?
As for me - my spirit looks towards the future - maybe the great achievement is not in me, maybe it's in my sons or daughter - or their children - and hence some part of the present time Gumby me?
The chorus of an old Jim Croce song comes to mind (Tomorro's Gonna Be a Brighter Day)
Chorus:
And tomorrow's gonna be a brighter day
There's gonna be some changes
Tomorrow's gonna be a brighter day
This time you can believe me
No more cryin' in your lonely room
And no more empty nights
'Cause tomorrow mornin' everything will turn out right
It's gonna, it's gonna, it's gonna be a brighter day
It's gonna, it's gonna, it's gonna be a brighter day
It's gonna, it's gonna, it's gonna be a brighter day
It's gonna be, it's gonna be, it's gonna be a brighter day
It's gonna be, it's gonna be, it's gonna be a brighter day
Come on tomorrow
Come on tomorrow
It's gonna be a brighter day
Chad
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drkodos
Mar 19, 2004, 8:24 PM
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In reply to: Drkodos has hit a nerve in some of us.
Thank you for recognizing.
That is what I do.
I am...
The Iconoclast.
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usmc_2tothetop
Mar 19, 2004, 8:40 PM
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Yes San Diego is a couple months away. Here I come J-Tree, and the La Jolla Coves
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smithclimber
Mar 19, 2004, 8:44 PM
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In reply to: Smithclimber: You are right...I am actually so ill informed that I thought cams came about 15 years ago...I will alter the post to reflect "slcds and stickyrubber climbing shoes." Thank you for the correction, -Kate.
I hope my comments sounded less like a "correction" and more importantly expressed that it is one's ability that gets you up a climb (freeclimbing as well as aid), rather than merely the equipement. I know plenty of climbers who own boat loads of gear, yet they can barely make their way up 5.7 (or even begin to know how to move effeciently on aid).
Years ago, when I played a lot of tennis, I was often humored when I would see Mrs. Country Club come out to the courts, in her Mercedez, wearing her brand new, matching, tennis outfit and her $350 racquet to play doubles... only to watch and realize that she could only just barely strike the ball.
I was content to show up in a beat car, wearing a t-shirt and shorts, and my lowly $150 racquet. It wasn't infrequent that I ended up later giving them lessons.
The point being... equipement is only a tool. One must still possess the ability to use those tools. Just because you can buy everything in the shop, doesn't mean you will be able to hit the ball correctly (or climb the route).
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usmc_2tothetop
Mar 19, 2004, 8:49 PM
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smithclimber worrrrd to that.
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holdplease2
Mar 19, 2004, 9:04 PM
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Wes, yup, I got it, but also wanted to correct my data backing up my point.
While I see your point and mostly agree, I still think my point is valid when the correct information/date is used.
For example: Say I can lead a particular 9, one with a little pump and a little footwork, just fine with a rack of cams and my climbing shoes. However, put me on that same climb in normal shoes with a rack of nuts and hexes...I am the same climber with the same ability, but I have made the climb harder for me by using gear from 25 years ago...thats what I mean.
However, to your point, give me more cams, 4 pairs of shoes, a range rover, and a prana beanie, and I still can't send the 10 next door. Gear matters to a point, but after that, its all the climber.
-Kate.
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lambone
Mar 19, 2004, 9:28 PM
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In reply to: (or even begin to know how to move effeciently on aid).
I get your point Wes and to an extent I agree...
However, with regards to aid climbing (since this is the aid forum after all) I think the term effeciency needs to be expanded upon. Does effeciency mean getting up the wall as quickly as possible, or getting up the wall using the least amount of energy as possible?
Regardless of the gear involved, I'd argue that many people worry so much about how to do the wall using the least amount of energy possible, yet it takes them twice as long to get the job done. I wouldn't necesarily call this being effecient.
They could have all the fancy gear in the world that makes everything more comfortable, and allows them to move up without expending much force, but typically at the expense of speed.
anyway, I'm rambleling. Your comment just made me think of ssome partners I've had who have all the fancy gear, but watching them climb is like watching paint dry....have fun!
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timpanogos
Mar 19, 2004, 9:35 PM
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DrKodos,
To take one of my wife’s favorite sayings - "Ok - damnit - get off my one last raw nerve!"
Kind of just makes you want to push those buttons - but carefully huh?
Yes it hits home with me - started technical climbing at 46 years old - I will never be a great climber - hell - I'll never even be a good climber - One of the main "essences” of the climbing challenge to me is the race against time that is whacking away at my mortal body. Another one is trying to balance the demands of the rat race of life with some weekends getting – mentally – way away. Oh yea, and the joy I felt, finally onsighting most TR 5.10a plastic in the gymn this winter. Or the 2.5 months of almost continual mental, physical, gear preparation that I torture myself with getting ready for a 2 week run-away for a stiff elcap route in may.
Why do I continue to do it? Not sure I can put my finger on it. Why did I start? Mid Life Crisis – plain and simple. It is something else to turn my compulsive addictive behaviors towards besides work, something that has filled a void within me.
So, I’m your perfect stereotype to that which you speak. A late comer. 2nd year already finding success on aiding those big walls, taking the “mentor” role upon myself here at rc.com, based on very little experience and time in the field.
Kind of depressing looking in the mirror at this angle. There are other angles that also reflect other aspects of "who am I"
Consider these words from a hymn:
Second verse of “Lord I would follow thee”
Who am I to judge another When I walk imperfectly?
In the quiet heart is hidden Sorrow that the eye can't see.
Who am I to judge another? Lord, I would follow thee.
The point here being, the worth, achievements and value of a man/woman is seldom accurately judged via outward and obvious observations (especially to a singular given activity), but by a hidden sum-total of their whole life’s experience.
And you know what – in the final balance – I’ll bet that mankind’s bell curve of “total weighted experience” – although those experiences are very diverse – would be very flat.
We are all equal, no matter how much we try and lift ourselves above others.
Hell that is what life is all about – have about 80% hardman experiences in something or the other – hard shit. And about 15% neutral, keeping your head about water experiences, and 5% on top of the world.
So I can live with the sucky aid climber, working on moderate trad climber, low level sport climber I see in the mirror. Some of my 5% comes from these activities. I can also live with the stuplification and general perceived lowering of the quality of climbing for the hardcore few as I work on a personal best – struggling up an aid route.
Chad
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holdplease2
Mar 19, 2004, 9:35 PM
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Watching aid climbing is like watching turtle-porn. Its all good if you're a turtle.
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timpanogos
Mar 19, 2004, 9:48 PM
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Kate,
I'll watch turtle-porn (ie. aid/learn with/from you) any day.
Chad
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smithclimber
Mar 19, 2004, 9:55 PM
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In reply to: Watching aid climbing is like watching turtle-porn. Its all good if you're a turtle.
:lol: :lol: :lol:
Too true... too true.
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epic_ed
Mar 19, 2004, 10:00 PM
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In reply to: Watching aid climbing is like watching turtle-porn. Its all good if you're a turtle.
Well, there's my new signature.
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timpanogos
Mar 19, 2004, 10:04 PM
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Ed and I are both like, um - SUPER NINJA Turtles
Waaaa Haaa
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diesel___smoke
Mar 19, 2004, 10:23 PM
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No - I won't have sex with you!
Uunnggggghhhhhhhhh
What??????
Yeaaahhhhh!!!111
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rockprodigy
Mar 22, 2004, 11:44 PM
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In reply to: Here is my challenge. Take me up on this one: Come to Vegas. We will do both Rainbow Wall Original Route as an aide route, then we will hop on Cloud Tower.
If you're such a badass, why don't you free the Rainbow Wall?
http://www.naclassics.com/climbs/rainbow/MI04.jpg
That's a pic I shot of my brother after I onsighted the pitch. If they want to aid, let them aid, what's it to you?
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tarsier
May 19, 2004, 1:07 AM
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"Big Walls" by Long and Middendorf is a good read if you're getting started in aid climbing.
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ricardol
May 19, 2004, 3:57 PM
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sheesh .. what a long thread ..
.. my $0.02 ..
.. unless you're breaking new barriers in the world of climbing... (like the hubers) .. who gives a rat's ass what is harder or what is more cutting edge ..
.. kodos has some valid points .. aid climbing is available to the masses .. all it takes is some courage, some good planning, some good advice, and some big cojones ..(or ovaries) ..
kodos: .. which do you think was the harder thing to do for me in my fist 12 months of climbing
1. swinging leads on east buttress of middle (5.9) <-- hardest + longest trad climb i was on in 2003 (i led the crux pitch)
2. aid-soloing zodiac on el capitan for my first ever big wall. 6 days on the wall. prior experience: 4 pitches of aid-soloing. (A1) -- no experience with hauling, no experience with nailing prior to blasting off. but i had damm good pitch by pitch beta.
.. so who cares what is the most cutting edge thing to do, (unless you're one of those people doing it) ... i really dont think that the fact that the huber's were in the process of freeing zodiac at the same time that i ascended takes anything away from my ascent... in fact i see them as very comparable achievements (of course this is in my little world!).. each of us took on as a project the hardest thing we could do at the present time ..
.. so really -- maybe climbing for you should be more about doing the hardest thing you can do at the time regardless of what climbing style you are doing (sport, trad, aid, etc).. and not keeping up with the whatever the cutting edge is .. (unless of course kodos, you are the cutting edge)...
.. at the same time -- i agree with your point .. anyone can climb A1, and A2 .. or C3 .. it just takes the right gear, and some balls.
-- ricardo
-- ricardo
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lambone
May 19, 2004, 4:17 PM
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In reply to: .. at the same time -- i agree with your point .. anyone can climb A1, and A2 .. or C3 .. it just takes the right gear, and some balls. -- ricardo
yeah, anyone can climb C3, especially with pitons :twisted:
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ricardol
May 19, 2004, 5:08 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: .. at the same time -- i agree with your point .. anyone can climb A1, and A2 .. or C3 .. it just takes the right gear, and some balls. -- ricardo yeah, anyone can climb C3, especially with pitons :twisted:
lamb ..
give me a f*cking break ..
some pitches went clean (C3) some went A2 ..
-- ricardo
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wyclimber
May 19, 2004, 5:26 PM
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Mac,
Aid doesn't necessarily have anything to do with steepness of the rock.
There are free climbs that are wildly overhanging yet your granma could probably get up them if she put her mind to it. Also, there are aid climbs that are slabby but require aid to climb.
Aid is more the method of ascent. Take El cap for example, what used to be hammer-in-aid type climbing now goes as clean aid because of the scars left by hammering. These climbs have sections that free climbers can tackle, but some folks will still aid them as a matter of style preference. It just depends on the experience you are looking for or the level of free climbing competence you have.
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lambone
May 19, 2004, 6:49 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: .. at the same time -- i agree with your point .. anyone can climb A1, and A2 .. or C3 .. it just takes the right gear, and some balls. -- ricardo yeah, anyone can climb C3, especially with pitons :twisted: lamb .. give me a f*cking break .. some pitches went clean (C3) some went A2 .. -- ricardo
jeez...relax bro, just pulling yer chain.
just agreeing with your point that anybody can climb easy aid with the right gear (i.e. pitons).
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ricardol
May 19, 2004, 6:52 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: .. at the same time -- i agree with your point .. anyone can climb A1, and A2 .. or C3 .. it just takes the right gear, and some balls. -- ricardo yeah, anyone can climb C3, especially with pitons :twisted: lamb .. give me a f*cking break .. some pitches went clean (C3) some went A2 .. -- ricardo jeez...relax bro, just pulling yer chain. just agreeing with your point that anybody can climb easy aid with the right gear (i.e. pitons).
:-) ..
.. it wasn't until i saw the fuming smiley face (what ever it is called) that i got bent out of shape ..
.. its true ..
.. btw .. i'm going to learn to climb A3 next month .. should be fun .. i think the possiblity for a 40 footer will be there ..
-- ricardo
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lambone
May 19, 2004, 9:08 PM
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In reply to: .. btw .. i'm going to learn to climb A3 next month .. should be fun .. i think the possiblity for a 40 footer will be there .. -- ricardo
right on! just make sure your first A3 has a nice clean fall.
my first was the roof pitch on the Shield. nice big fall potential here. my second was right above Chicken Head ledge, less exposed, but much scarier.
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ricardol
May 19, 2004, 9:39 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: .. btw .. i'm going to learn to climb A3 next month .. should be fun .. i think the possiblity for a 40 footer will be there .. -- ricardo right on! just make sure your first A3 has a nice clean fall. my first was the roof pitch on the Shield. nice big fall potential here. my second was right above Chicken Head ledge, less exposed, but much scarier.
for sure -- .. its going to be one of the A3 pitches on "Son Of Heart" .. which one is not yet decided (i'll make that decision when i see it and the fall potential) .. seems from looking at the topo that the pitches exiting the top of th heart would have plenty of exposure and clean falls.. (dont know what they go at though) ..
.. its gets steep after that anyways ..
-- ricardo
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