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chupa


Apr 27, 2004, 2:33 PM
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What is the big deal?
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Ok. I have a question for everbody out there that gives such a damn about fertility to impose your views upon someone else. First I'll give you my personal situation. About a month ago I had a vasectomy. I didn't feel like telling anybody because I didn't see the big deal in it. I just don't want any kids and especially no "accidents." So a friend of mine asks me if I ever went through with it thinking I would chicken out. I told him I did and he said I was stupid because I might want kids in the future. (If I don't want kids and end up with one that would be even worse in my eyes). So he proceeds to tell a couple other friends and eventually my family finds out. OK. So now I'm miffed. They're all pissed saying that I'm to young and I don't know what I'm doing. What about grandbabies..yadda yadda. So I figure it will all simmer down eventually. Well, some genius decides to leak this to my girlfriend of 3 years (who was finishing up a couple projects at ASU at the time, so she had no idea I was even planning this). Well, she gets back here and has a FIT! Saying that she might want kids some day and that I'm screwing with her life. She breaks up with me Saturday and is flying back to Arizona next week. Not that it's a huge deal, it's not like I haven't ended relationships before. It's just that this is a dumb reason.

OK. First of all I would like to state to all you girls out there, if your boyfriend/husband decides to have this done:
1:he does not need to consult you about it or get your "approval"
2:Who cares?
3:It has nothing to do with you

So my friend that told everybody is now out of my life. It wasn't a huge deal but he said he felt it is his duty to tell any of my future girlfriends that I had this done. I told him not to and he said it isn't fair to the girl not to know. I figure that if I don't tell her and she comes home pregnant one day I will know for sure it isn't mine and kick her to the curb. If she knows then she'll run out and get an abortion before I found out. Now which situation is fair?

Anybody have any opinion on this? I would like to know why someone would have this stance. In my friends case he is being an A-hole. In the (ex)girlfriends case, she's just being a shallow chick. That's my view.
2:It is none of your business
3:


dookie


Apr 27, 2004, 2:43 PM
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it's a personal decision.
bottom line.
However, if you are married and have discussed having children or know your wife wants to have children, while I don't think she should have to sign consent, I do feel that in a good relationship you should talk about things like this before doing them. Otherwise, I would count on your wife throwing in the towel after finding out you sterilized yourself without talking with her about it first. But your friends? It's not their life, they're just being stupid.
If you had spoken with your girl about kids, or knew that she wanted them - then you can count on her being upset about it. You just made the decision a lot easier for her though ;) It's not shallow for her to think about her life - maybe she hoped that things with you would be a lifelong committment or something.
how old are you btw? Generally that's not something I would think guys should do until they are older - there's always birth control and condoms, and it's not like you're protecting youself from getting std's just by getting a vasectomy...


coach


Apr 27, 2004, 2:59 PM
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Chupa,
It's your decision. I had it done after the birth of our second child. We simply didn't want any more kids and it was far easier for me than her. We never told any family and once in a while got those "Going to have any more kids?" questions which we handle by saying two was enough.
As a single guy it's your decision alone and your ex friend is an idiot. If you ever have a serious relationship it is something you should tell her, but in your own way and time, she shouldn't hear it from some "friend". It is something she deserves to know though.


Partner camhead


Apr 27, 2004, 3:10 PM
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dude, that sucks that yer friend blabbed to the world about it, but I would not stress the girlfriend thang too much. You and her obviously had different goals in the relationship, and it would have come up sooner or later. If I may make an uninformed generalization, if she dumped you over a vasectomy, I would see her as a prime example of someone who might have had an "accident" and forgotten her pills or something later on. Bad deal, and those types are not worth fucking with.

anyway, they do have reversal surgery for it as well. I see billboards all the time in rural texas for it. not that you want to be like a rural texan. hehe.


micronut


Apr 27, 2004, 3:14 PM
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I would have frozen some sperm before I had the surgery. Then, later, if my female started getting all nesty, I could just pull out the turkey baster and it's on.


Partner calamity_chk


Apr 27, 2004, 3:21 PM
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sounds to me as if you did the procedure to catch someone cheating. sad.

as for the gf, if you were aware of the fact that she wanted children someday, then telling her about your desire to not have kids and to have a surgical procedure preventing it probably would have made things easier. if my SO of three years did something like that without letting me know that it was going to happen, i'd be hurt. not because i feel the need to approve anything, but because it's a trust issue. how many other things is he hiding from me?

same thing goes for future gf's. if they want children, then you're being unfair and dishonest if you allow them to believe that you'd play along. a) you've had a medical procedure to prevent this, b) you obviously loathe the thought of being a parent. the least you can do is to be honest with her and yourself about your thoughts of parenthood. people dont have to approve, but honesty is one of those things that's usually a pretty key ingredient to have in a healthy relationship.

on the flipside, there are plenty of women who dont plan to have children. these women would likely be thrilled to know that they dont have to carry the burden of contraception control for a change.

just my .02


erica44


Apr 27, 2004, 3:29 PM
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In reply to:
sounds to me as if you did the procedure to catch someone cheating on. sad.

as for the gf, if you were aware of the fact that she wanted children someday, then telling her about your desire to not have kids and to have a surgical procedure preventing it probably would have made things easier. if my SO of three years did something like that without letting me know that it was going to happen, i'd be hurt. not because i feel the need to approve anything, but because it's a trust issue. how many other things is he hiding from me?

same thing goes for future gf's. if they want children, then you're being unfair and dishonest if you allow them to believe that you'd play along. a) you've had a medical procedure to prevent this, b) you obviously loathe the thought of being a parent. the least you can do is to be honest with her and yourself about your thoughts of parenthood. people dont have to approve, but honesty is one of those things that's usually a pretty key ingredient to have in a healthy relationship.

just my .02


100% agreed.

Erica


coach


Apr 27, 2004, 3:34 PM
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Paul,
I see those billboards too. Usually right next to a Rogaine and a Viagra one! WTF? :lol:


unabonger


Apr 27, 2004, 6:18 PM
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In reply to:
Ok. I have a question for everbody out there that gives such a damn about fertility to impose your views upon someone else. First I'll give you my personal situation.
Not a good idea.
In reply to:
They're all pissed saying that I'm to young
Clearly your friends are perceptive!
In reply to:
I'm screwing with her life
And your ex sounds like a smart woman!
In reply to:
. She breaks up with me Saturday
She's got excellent judgement too!

The JudgeBonger


Partner wideguy


Apr 27, 2004, 6:51 PM
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Dude,

1) Absolutely your decision. But being in a long term relationship, if you knew or suspected she DID want kids and was envisioning them with you, you owed her the respect of letting her know that wasn't gonna happen alot sooner than you did. NOT asking her permissio, but telling her your decision. And she is perfectly justified in being pissed at how she found out and deciding to dump you to not waste time in her life.

2) Your friend was out of line to tell people. Especially your family. But again, YOU should have had the stones to tell the GF yourself.

3) Not your friend's job, but YOU should tell any future GF's very early on that you are out of the kid business. Even if she's a perfect match otherwise, if she wants kids and you can't, she desreves to know that up front. Women and kids... not something to toy with.


robmcc


Apr 27, 2004, 7:07 PM
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My take:

No one has any right to push you to have children. If you don't want them, don't have them. Kids belong with parents who want to have them. There's nothing wrong with recognizing that you don't want them and choosing not to have them. Not everyone should be a parent.

As for your SO's reaction--that's totally valid, too. Just like no one can tell you _to_ have kids, no one should ever preclude her from having them if she wants to. Clearly, she wants to and you are no longer capable. With a snip and a tie you became a poor long term relationship prospect for her. IMO, the only thing that happened is that this event brought to the fore the fact that you are fundamentally wrong for each other. She wants kids. You don't. That's a pretty big issue. You feel strongly enough about it to get a vasectomy. She feels strongly enough about it to end the relationship. Game over.

Rob


robmcc


Apr 27, 2004, 7:14 PM
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In reply to:
In reply to:
They're all pissed saying that I'm to young
Clearly your friends are perceptive!

Just to throw in another data point, I have a relative who got a vasectomy early in his adulthood. Nearly 20 years later, he had it reversed and now has two children. It is entirely possible to be sure you don't want kids, then change your mind later. Vasectomies are not always reversable.

Rob


olive


Apr 27, 2004, 7:25 PM
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whether you want kids or not is your business. However, if i was in a relationship for three years, i would have expected that my SO discussed important decisions in his life with me, again as others have underlined, not because you need approval but because your SO is someone who ideally shares an important part of your life. I found it strange that you did not even tell her what you were planning to do. Maybe you were not that close, I dont know.


robmcc


Apr 27, 2004, 7:30 PM
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In reply to:
However, if i was in a relationship for three years, i would have expected that my SO discussed important decisions in his life with me.

Good point, but I can't even imagine being in a relationship for 3 years without discussing whether I wanted to have kids. I'd have to say you're making a mistake if something like having kids is important to you and you don't manage to bring the subject up in 3 years, or if you answer a question like that with anything other than unalloyed truth.

Rob


mountainchick82


Apr 27, 2004, 7:38 PM
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if it were my husband, yeah, i think then we would need to come to some sort of agreement. but a boyfriend, no way. we're not married and its his life.

also, if a girl ends up marrying you and wants kids its not like you can't adopt. there are more kids out there that need good homes that don't have parents and are in foster situations.


obviously the relationship wasn't all that solid if you couldn't work through something like this and you're better off not being together.

good luck, and cheers for standing up for yourself.


vivalargo


Apr 27, 2004, 9:48 PM
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As the saying goes, "Tastes differ." If I'm good with my own decisions, I don't engage others in defense of my tastes or in rallying allies, nor do I hammer others whose tastes differ from my own. Living with the results of our decisions -- such as people leaving -- is what makes so many folks avoid making any definitive descisions in the hopes of having it both ways. But of course we never can, which means any descision will always narrow our options. So it goes . . .

JL


timstich


Apr 27, 2004, 10:24 PM
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They can still stick a big needle into your nutsack (WOWZA HI YI YAAGA) to extract some sperm for artificial fertilization. I assume this is cheaper than vasectomy reversal, but have no idea. As for using a vasectomy to catch a cheating spouse/gf? Blood/DNA tests work fine for that.

But get this, if you are in a relationship, things like that are part of the deal. Don't spring surprises like this on anyone and act like this is kosher.


danooguy


Apr 27, 2004, 11:21 PM
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Very interesting topic as posted by the author. Very revealing also.

First off, I agree with unabonger 100%

But I would like to comment on the way in which the facts were revealed in the author’s post:

In reply to:
I didn't feel like telling anybody because I didn't see the big deal in it.

This might mean that the author did not want anyone to know, let alone comment on his decision, especially his sex partner. That tells me that he may not really want to commit to her or perhaps he does not want her to know that she is not important to him for a long term relationship…thus she is not a “significant other,” only someone to hang with and have unprotected sex with for the time being. Her feelings and desires for the future mean nothing to him.

In reply to:
I just don't want any kids and especially no "accidents."

Accidents can be almost always prevented by communication with your sexual counterpart (welcome to the 21st century); that is just good common sense if you’ve decided to have sex with someone. I read fear of commitment into this line, or some of other type of fear…maybe I’m wrong. Clearly abstinence is not an option because he wants to have unprotected sex; he just does not want to have any consequences to deal with, no matter what and no matter how others might be affected now or in the future.

In reply to:
Saying that she might want kids some day and that I'm screwing with her life. She breaks up with me Saturday and is flying back to Arizona next week. Not that it's a huge deal, it's not like I haven't ended relationships before. It's just that this is a dumb reason.

He is “screwing with her life.” She is dead nuts on the money (pardon the pun). He has eliminated a most important option from her life, if she considered him a serious candidate as a partner for life, and he did so without considering her at all. I admire her for her decision and the expeditious manner in which she executed that decision. It shows that she has pride in herself and her future. Procreation is one of life’s most powerful destinations for most people. That is not to say that it is for everybody and I respect the author’s decision, but I also respect his female counterpart’s decision to position him flat on his ass for the way he went about doing it.

In reply to:
OK. First of all I would like to state to all you girls out there, if your boyfriend/husband decides to have this done:
1:he does not need to consult you about it or get your "approval"
2:Who cares?
3:It has nothing to do with you

1.Arguable at best.
2.Your potential mate for life or your spouse, other than that no one, really.
3.Only true if the relationship is casual and flippant, which is usually abnormal and uncommon for healthy people in healthy relationships.

In reply to:
I figure that if I don't tell her and she comes home pregnant one day I will know for sure it isn't mine and kick her to the curb.

Here the author reveals his desire to engage in unprotected sex (with whomever) with zero consequences or responsibilities and his desire to maintain 100% control over both his destiny and the destiny of every woman that he will ever encounter. Amazing. Could he be more of a pig? And let me ask this question: Who is on the “curb” now? My answer: Precisely the person that should be on the curb.

In reply to:
If she knows then she'll run out and get an abortion before I found out.

Both a first year psych major and a seasoned team of shrinks would have a field day with this comment and the one previous. Someone, somewhere along the line has caused some serious trust issues for this poor unfortunate male of the species. It hurts to even read such a thing.

In reply to:
In the (ex)girlfriends case, she's just being a shallow chick. That's my view.
2:It is none of your business

He could not be more wrong.

Now he is alone. With his attitude and his approach to life and the female of the species, I would advise him to get very comfortable with the idea of being alone.


chupa


Apr 28, 2004, 12:03 AM
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To interupt your post, I do not have unprotected sex. I wrap it every time. The problem arises when the protection breaks. Then you have a problem. I'm not really scared of commitment, I just got out of a 3 year relationship. I think that proves the commitment is there. Plus, is there any difference between what I am doing and if I happened to be infertile anyway and just didn't know it? Not much of a difference in my opinion. I don't plan on having unprotected sex, I just did the surgery as a backup to getting trapped in with someone I'm not going to spend the rest of my life with. So many women think it is their decision to make whether or not to have a child, the guy is left out of the choice altogether. So to sum up your summary, I am not afraid of commitment, I don't get torn up over breaking up, I like having one partner because it's safer (I don't sleep around) but there is no way I'll commit my life to some chick that will end up trying to change me. It's pretty darn easy just to go out and get laid, I want a little more than that, I just don't want a kid.


danooguy


Apr 28, 2004, 12:18 AM
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In reply to:
I just did the surgery as a backup to getting trapped in with someone I'm not going to spend the rest of my life with.

In reply to:
...I like having one partner because it's safer (I don't sleep around) but there is no way I'll commit my life to some chick that will end up trying to change me.

Allow me to reiterate the last sentence of my post.


robmcc


Apr 28, 2004, 1:29 AM
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He has eliminated a most important option from her life

That really isn't true at all. He eliminated her ability to have children with him. He did not eliminate her ability to have children period. Just with him. Since he so clearly has no intention of having children ever, anyway, what exactly did he do?

He answered that particular question in a crystal clear manner. No kids with him. Period. Ever. What he did is not, in my mind, much different from sitting her down and saying, "Honey, I'm never going to have children. I can't stand 'em. Don't want 'em. Won't have 'em."

As I said, he (apparently) doesn't want kids. She just as apparently very much does. These people do not belong together.

In reply to:
if she considered him a serious candidate as a partner for life

Then hopefully they had the kids talk before now. If they didn't, they're equally at fault. I guess in my world, either potential parent has the right and responsibility to choose not to have children. Unless both choose yes, it shouldn't happen.

In reply to:
I admire her for her decision and the expeditious manner in which she executed that decision.

Yep, agreed. He's clearly not someone she should be with.

Rob


meataxe


Apr 28, 2004, 1:47 AM
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- vasectomy is not 100% effective, if I'm not mistaken

- you had surgery without telling your girlfriend? sounds like a relationship you don't particularly value.


scubasnyder


Apr 28, 2004, 2:21 AM
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read the post n like why


danooguy


Apr 28, 2004, 11:05 AM
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In reply to:
Then hopefully they had the kids talk before now. If they didn't, they're equally at fault. I guess in my world, either potential parent has the right and responsibility to choose not to have children. Unless both choose yes, it shouldn't happen.

A display of "logic" as obtuse as the author's.

Had the "kids talk?" When humans meet and size each other up, having children as part of marriage is normal; that one or the other is so adamantly against children that he or she has decided to render himself or herself sterile is something that should be discussed and revealed, not the other way around. In other words, it is presumed that you are a potential candidate for procreation from the start. Again, procreation is the norm and is expected to occur at some point in the future when the male and female of the species begin the dating/mating/marriage/live-happily-ever-after ritual.

Of course either can choose and has the right to NOT have children. However, in "your world" you presume that one or the other can make such a decision without so much as notice to the other, and further that one does not even owe notice to the other in any way. For a woman to presume that a young man, may not want children today, but may change his mind later, is also not at all uncommon. The female often presumes that as time and the relationship advance he will want to permanently mate and children will follow.

The age of the players has not been made clear in this post. However, when two younger people meet, if one or the other is not "interested" in having children, the presumption is that the lack of interest is due to the current status or inability to take responsibility for said offspring, not that one or the other will surgically and secretly eliminate any possibility of that option for the future. In other words, if one is 20 years old and in college, he or she may too immature to even think about having children. As he or she matures, he or she may re-examine that stance. Such lack of interest in procreation is commonplace during the period of relative immaturity that is adolescence and even ealrly post adolescence.

Simply put, when one chooses a mate for life, the concept of breeding with that mate is a consideration.

In reply to:
That really isn't true at all. He eliminated her ability to have children with him. He did not eliminate her ability to have children period. Just with him. Since he so clearly has no intention of having children ever, anyway, what exactly did he do?

Here's exactly what he did: He proceeded, for three YEARS, along the path of a relationship which can and OFTEN does lead to a permanent relationship and children, and during the procession decieved and betrayed his potential permanent mate. If his deception and betrayal seems normal to you, I would submit that you also need to re-examine your stance toward the opposite of sex.

Of course, he eliminated the chance of procreation with HIM. Obviously that is precisely what she considered as an of several important options and factors in the list of prerequisites. Normal humans consider that option as an important factor in choosing a mate during the dating/mating years of the life cycle. Now if you'd like you can launch a discussion of what is and is not "normal." But in his case, he will have to do it alone, won't he? She, like most others, obviously considers procreation as part of the lifecycle as normal.


cantbuymefriends


Apr 28, 2004, 11:26 AM
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In reply to:
He answered that particular question in a crystal clear manner. No kids with him. Period. Ever. What he did is not, in my mind, much different from sitting her down and saying, "Honey, I'm never going to have children. I can't stand 'em. Don't want 'em. Won't have 'em."

Except that it seems like he didn't want her to find out.


cerikpete


Apr 28, 2004, 12:15 PM
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In reply to:
In reply to:
He answered that particular question in a crystal clear manner. No kids with him. Period. Ever. What he did is not, in my mind, much different from sitting her down and saying, "Honey, I'm never going to have children. I can't stand 'em. Don't want 'em. Won't have 'em."

Except that it seems like he didn't want her to find out.

That's my take too. Things like this should have been communicated beforehand, not hidden because he "didn't feel like" bringing it up.

I understand his decision (except for the not telling her part), and I also understand hers.


dookie


Apr 28, 2004, 12:31 PM
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In reply to:
I'm not really scared of commitment, I just got out of a 3 year relationship.

contradicted with...
In reply to:
I just did the surgery as a backup to getting trapped in with someone I'm not going to spend the rest of my life with. So many women think it is their decision to make whether or not to have a child, the guy is left out of the choice altogether....
but there is no way I'll commit my life to some chick that will end up trying to change me. It's pretty darn easy just to go out and get laid.

There is a huge amount of paranoia in your statements about women, chupa - and danoo's right, a psychologist would have a field day with some of the statments and contradictions you are making here. Fear of getting trapped, fear of women trying to change you, thinking that women all think it's their decision only to have a child without taking into consideration the opinion of the man? I don't know who made you feel this way or what experiences you've had to make you think these things, but most women want to have children with men who want children. To think that the guy is out of the choice when women think about having children is pretty funny to me... as that most certainly is NOT the case for most women. There are plenty of women out there who also do not want children - you will find one and probably be very happy with her. However, until you get over your fear of women, chances are you'll continue to be unhappy in relationships. That's my take, at least.


bumblie


Apr 28, 2004, 12:41 PM
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T-6 :lol:


climbingbetty22


Apr 28, 2004, 1:12 PM
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I think danooguy is right on the money with his posts.

Just because she left doesn't mean she has her heart set on having kids. It merely means that it was an option for her and she was smart enough to know that anyone who would remove that option without so much as talking to her about it is no longer worth her time.

Furthermore, I find it ironic that the poster would have the audascity to call her shallow. Quite the opposite in my opinion, he was the one being shallow by only thinking of himself. While he is completely within his right to have the surgery, keeping it from her was an act of pure selfishness.

I also find it ironic that in follow up comments he claims to be capable of commitment. How can you expect to commit to someone you can't even talk to??? How do you expect to commit to someone you've kept secrets from? Think about it another way...children are a commitment. I'm not saying that anyone has to have a child to show that you can commit to something, but I am saying that his actions actually do illustrate that he is afraid of commitment. Personally, I can't understand how he can be surprised that his gf dropped his ass like a bad habit. Perhaps he went about his decision in such an underhanded manner because subconciously he didn't want to commit to her. Hell, maybe it isn't even so subconscious. He said himself that he didn't want to have any "accidents" happen that keep him "stuck" with anyone.

Mad props to the gf for being decisive and standing up for what she needed instead of staying with someone who obviously didn't care about what she may want out of life.


cantbuymefriends


Apr 28, 2004, 1:32 PM
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Re: What is the big deal? [In reply to]
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A few questions to Chupa, to help clarify the issue:

Did you, during your 3 years together, ever discuss having children, now or in a distant future?
Did she, in any way, act as if she could make an "accident" happen, if you didn't agree on the issue?


chupa


Apr 28, 2004, 2:05 PM
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Sorry I didn't clarify myself earlier. First of all we did discuss the children thing. I made it known to her that I was not willing to consider having children. It isn't an option for me. She knew that from day one (when we started "getting serious"). So this doesn't change anything except maybe the fact she wanted to either change me or trap me by getting herself pregnant. I can't verify if that is true but I can't think of any other reason.

Re: the afraid of commitment post, that is not true at all. I've heard that before whenever I dump someone. I'm not afraid of commitment, most guys aren't. If you are a girl and you get dumped don't call it that to the guy. He just doesn't want to be with you/ doesn't want to commit to you. It has nothing to do with fear, it has nothing to do with them, it has everything to do with how they feel about you and the fact they don't want to be with you.

With saying that I know many of you might post and say she doesn't want to be with ME. OK! I'll give you that. I've accepted that. She was a cool girl but it's no particular great loss (as any break up ever is). I'm a little bummed but I really have better things to do than feel miserable. I'm posting this as an inquirey to get other feedback. I'm very curious about others views on things like that.


Partner wideguy


Apr 28, 2004, 2:26 PM
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Re: What is the big deal? [In reply to]
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In reply to:
Sorry I didn't clarify myself earlier. First of all we did discuss the children thing. I made it known to her that I was not willing to consider having children. It isn't an option for me. She knew that from day one (when we started "getting serious").

Then I go back to my original point, you were absolutely within your rights to do what you did and you're probably right, she was likely hoping you would change your mind. As long as you were up front with here like that and are with any other future prospects, then it IS noone else's business but yours.


robmcc


Apr 28, 2004, 7:05 PM
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In reply to:
Had the "kids talk?" When humans meet and size each other up, having children as part of marriage is normal; that one or the other is so adamantly against children that he or she has decided to render himself or herself sterile is something that should be discussed and revealed, not the other way around. In other words, it is presumed that you are a potential candidate for procreation from the start. Again, procreation is the norm and is expected to occur at some point in the future when the male and female of the species begin the dating/mating/marriage/live-happily-ever-after ritual.

Dano,

The fact that you and I are on such opposite ends of the spectrum does a lot to argue for my side. You see procreation as the norm. You assume a desire not to have children is not "normal" and should be announced. You think a desire for kids is to be expected. Implicit, unannounced, and just silently there. I completely disagree. How do you deal with the fact that any two random people might silently have such different views on such an important issue? You talk about it. They should have. As has since been revealed, they _did_ talk about it.

In reply to:
Of course either can choose and has the right to NOT have children. However, in "your world" you presume that one or the other can make such a decision without so much as notice to the other, and further that one does not even owe notice to the other in any way.

Absolutely one can make such a decision. If I don't want to have children, it's game over, there shall be no children. Not with me, anyway. If my SO decides not to have children, it's also game over, there shall be no children, at least not with her. Sorry, I happen to think it's unfair to the child to give them a father or mother who doesn't want them. The woman in this story will find some man who does want to have children. She will almost certainly have them, and that child will have parentS. Not a mother and an absentee dad.

And for the record, I did not say notice wasn't owed. In my world, that means you have the "kids talk".

In reply to:
For a woman to presume that a young man, may not want children today, but may change his mind later, is also not at all uncommon.

It may not be uncommon, but it is rather naive. If she stays with a man who says he doesn't want children, she would be well advised to be sure she'll be happy childless.

In reply to:
Here's exactly what he did: He proceeded, for three YEARS, along the path of a relationship which can and OFTEN does lead to a permanent relationship and children, and during the procession decieved and betrayed his potential permanent mate.

As has since been revealed, that is essentially a fabrication on your part. You read all that into what was said. He was, in fact, clear that he didn't want to have kids. She naively proceeded on with him apparently believing that would change at some point. If kids were so important to her, she should have left when he made it clear verbally that he didn't want any.

In reply to:
If his deception and betrayal seems normal to you, I would submit that you also need to re-examine your stance toward the opposite of sex.

Deception and betrayal is no part of what I was defending. I'm defending any man's or woman's right to remain childless. He had every right to sterilize himself. Should he have told her? I don't know. Interesting question. In my case, I can't imagine not telling her in advance. But is he obligated? He already said "No kids ever." What changed? He took away an illusion she should never have permitted herself to believe in. No kids really did mean no kids after all.

In reply to:
Of course, he eliminated the chance of procreation with HIM. Obviously that is precisely what she considered as an of several important options and factors in the list of prerequisites.

Then, once more, she should have found a more suitable mate when he told her he had no interest in ever having children. That she stayed with him in spite of his refusal to have kids was ill advised.

Rob


Partner calamity_chk


Apr 28, 2004, 7:15 PM
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i can still see a sense a betrayal from not being included in a pre-op discussion - not for approval's sake, but for the sake of knowing what's going on in your SO's life. something as simple as, "hey babe. we've talked about not having kids and i think i'd like to get a vasectomy. . here's the info, blahblahblah. i think it will make our lives easier in a lot of ways."

example from my own life, i dont plan to have any more children, i hope to find someone who's willing to accept my son without wanting anymore children. however, if a friend of said SO told me that he went and had a surgery while i was out of town, it would make me feel like he was up to something. (cheating is the first thing that comes to my mind.)

personally, i'll plan to have my tubes tied when i have the money. this was discussed in my last serious relationship, not because i wanted his approval or whatever - but because he was an intimate part of my life and i didnt feel like it was appropriate or necessary to hide it. if i'd had the funds while we were still dating, we would have talked about it more.

back to chupa, i wasnt there and the actual discussions arent my business - but those are my thoughts based on limited info and my own experience. maybe he's an a-hole, maybe she's a nutbag, i dont know either of them so it's hard to say.


anfbymyrock


Apr 28, 2004, 9:03 PM
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To me it sounds like you didn't really want her around anyway. Mayhaps this was just a means to an end for you?

If my boyfriend of 3 (!) years said

"She was a cool girl but it's no particular great loss (as any break up ever is). "

I don't think I'd want to be with him anyway, little guys or no.


chupa


Apr 28, 2004, 10:22 PM
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I don't get that. A break up is a break up. It doesn't mean I didn't want her in my life, it just means that I'm not going to get all torn up because someone broke up with me. If they break up with me I say it's no great loss because it was going to end eventually anyway. Sure I'll miss her but it really doesn't affect my life in any big way. There's a million girls out there, some that don't want any kids ever. I always hold the person I'm dating in the highest regards until the break up. Either she breaks up with me and I move on or I no longer hold her in the highest regards and I break up with her. I still think she's a wonderful person for some other guy. It obviously isn't me so big deal. If some other guy ends up wih her he'll be a lucky guy. She's smart, sexy, hot, funny and she's going places (she climbs 5.11 also only climbing 1-2 days per week).

I think too many people put too much of an emphasis on breaking up. There really isn't much to it. You just move on. No fear of commitment is required and no reason to think b/c you aren't sad you didn't really like her. I see a couple people share my views but that's what's great about people. We all hold different views and we are all individuals in our own right. Even plastic people who want to fit in with the other plastic people are all unique and think differently in some way or another. Of course that makes me think that even racists are beautiful people but everybody is unique and we are all doomed until we find the person as unique a us. I just haven't done it yet. (that doesn't mean I'm the MOST unique, I just haven't found a COMPATIBLE unique yet).


calliope


Apr 28, 2004, 10:39 PM
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^^^

I'm a little frightened, because that made sense. I guess we, as people, get pretty hung up on what our expectations of other people were. And then there's the fear of never finding someone again who--fill in the blank.

Back to the original question, none of your friends business, not your girlfriend's to approve, but as Amber pointed out, I'd want to at least be informed of a decision like that. It does affect her life if she remains. You made the choice that was right for you. She made the choice that was right for her. Can't say I blame her. I'm wishy washy on the whole subject...haven't decided if I want any or not, but at the same time I don't want the choice to evaporate before I've made a decision.


Partner tattooed_climber


Apr 28, 2004, 11:29 PM
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in my opinion, you did what you though was rational..which it is from your prespective, but from others, its not rational....this is one of though 'grey areas" where some people find unethical...or whatever influenced bullsh*t it may be..

...as for your friend....i'd f*cking curb-stomp that motherfker


its your life, live it the way you want to..


spandexomo


Apr 28, 2004, 11:36 PM
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In reply to:
Ok. I have a question for everbody out there that gives such a damn about fertility to impose your views upon someone else. First I'll give you my personal situation. About a month ago I had a vasectomy. I didn't feel like telling anybody because I didn't see the big deal in it. I just don't want any kids and especially no "accidents." So a friend of mine asks me if I ever went through with it thinking I would chicken out. I told him I did and he said I was stupid because I might want kids in the future. (If I don't want kids and end up with one that would be even worse in my eyes). So he proceeds to tell a couple other friends and eventually my family finds out. OK. So now I'm miffed. They're all pissed saying that I'm to young and I don't know what I'm doing. What about grandbabies..yadda yadda. So I figure it will all simmer down eventually. Well, some genius decides to leak this to my girlfriend of 3 years (who was finishing up a couple projects at ASU at the time, so she had no idea I was even planning this). Well, she gets back here and has a FIT! Saying that she might want kids some day and that I'm screwing with her life. She breaks up with me Saturday and is flying back to Arizona next week. Not that it's a huge deal, it's not like I haven't ended relationships before. It's just that this is a dumb reason.

OK. First of all I would like to state to all you girls out there, if your boyfriend/husband decides to have this done:
1:he does not need to consult you about it or get your "approval"
2:Who cares?
3:It has nothing to do with you

So my friend that told everybody is now out of my life. It wasn't a huge deal but he said he felt it is his duty to tell any of my future girlfriends that I had this done. I told him not to and he said it isn't fair to the girl not to know. I figure that if I don't tell her and she comes home pregnant one day I will know for sure it isn't mine and kick her to the curb. If she knows then she'll run out and get an abortion before I found out. Now which situation is fair?

Anybody have any opinion on this? I would like to know why someone would have this stance. In my friends case he is being an A-hole. In the (ex)girlfriends case, she's just being a shallow chick. That's my view.
2:It is none of your business
3:

it must suck having no balls.


danooguy


Apr 29, 2004, 3:35 AM
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In reply to:
Sorry I didn't clarify myself earlier. First of all we did discuss the children thing. I made it known to her that I was not willing to consider having children. It isn't an option for me. She knew that from day one (when we started "getting serious"). So this doesn't change anything except maybe the fact she wanted to either change me or trap me by getting herself pregnant. I can't verify if that is true but I can't think of any other reason.

I am beginning to agree with bumblie that this entire post is a troll or the author is truly pathological in a variety of ways.

Robmcc:
In reply to:
The fact that you and I are on such opposite ends of the spectrum does a lot to argue for my side.
In reply to:


Oh really? Odd then, that a series of very articulate posts followed mine in near total agreement. The fact that you would shy from my statement that procreation is the norm is indicative of the weakness of your entire premise and serves to isolate you, not me.

In reply to:
You see procreation as the norm.


I don’t think that there is much to argue about here, robmcc. Apparently you do.

In reply to:
You assume a desire not to have children is not "normal" and should be announced.

Very clever choice of words, but sorry, no cigar. What I said was, in essence, that if a person is normal, mature, of child-bearing age, and is involved in a serious relationship, a discussion of getting sterilized with what may be your potential spouse would usually be in order.

However, the author has not revealed his age and that of the female involved. If I recall correctly, he failed to do so in response to a direct request. The age of the parties is relevant, in my opinion. For example, if you ask a 15 year-old male if he wants children, he may say yes or no. Ask the same male, the same question, 8 or 10 years later and his answer may be a resounding yes…perhaps as a result of having experienced the company of young children or babies by way of his friends or family, older cousins and so on. In other words, as he matures, his opinion often changes…this is a fact not lost on the female of the species, especially in her late teens or early twenties when she may be somewhat more mature than her male counterpart.

Therefore, the female in this story (which is beginning to sound more and more like BS), may have simply taken the “kids talk” with a grain of salt, figuring that he would perhaps change his mind with more life experience, specifically more experience with children and babies.

In reply to:
You think a desire for kids is to be expected. Implicit, unannounced, and just silently there. I completely disagree.

I will respect your right to an opinion on this matter, while quietly pointing to the fact that the majority of the human species eventually chooses a mate and desires children in their lives if possible. Are there exceptions? Yes, of course. Are the exceptions the rule? Sorry. Look around. Look at the world around you. Look at the people from any nation on the planet. It is implicit, one of life’s given factors. And that, my friend, is something that you and I do NOT have to explain to the female in this story that promptly put the author of this tale to the proverbial curb for that very reason.

In reply to:
As has since been revealed, that is essentially a fabrication on your part.

Again, no cigar. I stand by what I said in light of the facts revealed at the time. Nice try.

In reply to:
I'm defending any man's or woman's right to remain childless. He had every right to sterilize himself.

His “right to sterilize himself” is not the question and yours is a rather elementary comment. That is like saying he has the right to get a manicure. Of course he has the “right.” Anyone with the plumbing “has the right.” It is a question of how it affects a potential spouse and her desires and feelings about possibly getting married and having children in the future. Hell, even his family told him he was nuts (yeeehaw, puns o’ fun).

In reply to:
Should he have told her? I don't know.

I do. Her absence from this apparently hypothetical situation seems to indicate that she knew too. But then again, maybe its like getting a manicure as far as he's concerned.


Interesting topic, that we can agree on. Thanks for your comments, rob.


danooguy


Apr 29, 2004, 3:36 AM
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amber, great post.


Partner calamity_chk


Apr 29, 2004, 5:21 AM
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In reply to:
amber, great post.

holy crap, did hell just freeze over? my post just got the danooguy-approval. (Thanks!)


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