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danq99
Jan 28, 2005, 4:12 AM
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I am about to get into multi-pitch climbing and noticed that some routes require two ropes for a rappel, but only one for the lead climb. How does this work. For example, the north ridge of Montezuma's Tower at Garden of the Gods. Rc.com says 'Can lead the whole thing on one 60m rope, but must have two ropes for the rappel.'
Thanks,
Dan
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slobmonster
Jan 28, 2005, 4:15 AM
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Bring another rope, Einstein.
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danq99
Jan 28, 2005, 4:19 AM
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Maybe I should clarify, to prevent further idiotic replies. I don't quite understand the neccesity of the second rope. Why can't you rappel from top to belay station, and then belay station to the ground with the same rope?
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hibby11
Jan 28, 2005, 4:21 AM
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they may be considering the fact that the rope will be half the length on the rappel if you lead a climb you can use the full length of the rope but if its doubled for the rappel it'd be half the length thus requiring u to use a second rope
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ashmoo
Jan 28, 2005, 4:31 AM
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Often, the rappel is not directly above the climb itself, so rapping in 2 pitches isn't an option.
Other times, it is just easier to carry up a 2nd rope rather than having to do 2 raps to get down.
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tradguy
Jan 28, 2005, 4:38 AM
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Or if there is not a mid-way rap station, you'd be hosed. Or, if for instance it was a 2-pitch, 60m route, but the first pitch is 40m and the second is 20m you would again be hosed if you lacked a 2nd rope (60m rope doubled over only gets you a 30m rap).
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cgailey
Jan 28, 2005, 4:41 AM
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In reply to: Or if there is not a mid-way rap station, you'd be hosed. Or, if for instance it was a 2-pitch, 60m route, but the first pitch is 40m and the second is 20m you would again be hosed if you lacked a 2nd rope (60m rope doubled over only gets you a 30m rap).
Yes, do the math, einstein... :P
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fear
Jan 28, 2005, 6:00 AM
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In reply to: I am about to get into multi-pitch climbing and noticed that some routes require two ropes for a rappel, but only one for the lead climb. How does this work. For example, the north ridge of Montezuma's Tower at Garden of the Gods. Rc.com says 'Can lead the whole thing on one 60m rope, but must have two ropes for the rappel.'
Those route descriptions are bullsh!t. You don't need two ropes. At the end of your 60m pitch you just fix your lead line to the top anchors and rap the line. You wouldn't want to have to leave TWO ropes.... geeez... that would get expensive.
Where are you climbing this weekend?
-Fear
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fixednut
Jan 28, 2005, 7:14 AM
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Refer to my first post in the "What's the dumbest thing you've ever seen at the crag?" thread.
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akclimber
Jan 28, 2005, 7:20 AM
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Evidence. :lol:
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fixednut
Jan 28, 2005, 7:45 AM
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In reply to: It was a legit question. Will u guys PLEASE pull ur heads out of ur asses an remember that at one time u were asking the same questions.
I'm 2legit2quit. 8^)
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sava6e
Jan 28, 2005, 8:08 AM
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well as i have come across routes like this, i can relate so heres the deal you climb up 60 m to your first belay station so your entire rope is used, you belay your 2nd up now to get down without leaving your rope (im sure you know this) but you run your rope through the rap rings put yourself on belay take yourself off of the anchor and rap down then your partner raps down too and you pull the rope well problem with a route where the belay station is longer than half way of your rope wont touch the ground and there are no more rap/belay stations to anchor and repeat the process so you need two ropes to get your ropes to touch the ground, (just keep in mind when you rap your rope is only half as long as when you originally ascent) anywho, climb wiht one rope or two half ropes and if you climb wiht one rope have your partner follow up wiht another rope so you tie them together i prefer double fishermans some like the edk, and you remember which side has the knot at the rap sation so you can pull your rope, i would personally get some help from someone, otherwise you could get hurt or wind up leaving a rope or two, and have to do rope rescue which sux azz. hope this helps
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vegastradguy
Jan 28, 2005, 8:15 AM
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sava- no offense, but that made no sense at all.
the basic idea is that sometimes you have to rappel more than 30m at a time. this involves bringing a second line. the premise is the same, but you tie the two lines together with either an overhand knot or a double fishermans (read up on the pros and cons of each of these methods) rappel and then pull your ropes and repeat as necessary.
i often encounter this situation, which is one of the reason i climb with double ropes- both being 8.6mm thick. this saves quite a bit of weight, but involves more rope management. as you progress, you'll discover different options available to you as well and you can then begin to make decisions based on your individual needs in the areas you climb in.
good luck and have fun!
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kpalsson
Jan 28, 2005, 9:53 AM
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It's more often a case of natural anchors than it is of >30m raps.
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cantbuymefriends
Jan 28, 2005, 12:29 PM
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As it has been said above, unless you want to fix the rope at the top and abandon it afterwards, you can only rap half the distance that you can lead climb on a single rope.
One solution is to get half or twin ropes to climb with.
But if you already have a good lead rope and want to save some money, get a thin (7 mm?) static rope, that you can tie together with the lead rope for rapping.
You must however get some education on how to arrange the ropes at the top station (what knot to use, where to put it, etc...), to avoid see-sawing through the anchors etc. because your lead rope stretches and your static rope won't.
Also remember to get a proper rap device, as far as I know you can't rap on double ropes with a GriGri.
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j_ung
Jan 28, 2005, 2:37 PM
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In reply to: I am about to get into multi-pitch climbing and noticed that some routes require two ropes for a rappel, but only one for the lead climb. How does this work. For example, the north ridge of Montezuma's Tower at Garden of the Gods. Rc.com says 'Can lead the whole thing on one 60m rope, but must have two ropes for the rappel.' Thanks, Dan
Dang99,
It's been suggested that climbing on double or twin ropes might be a good I dea, but if you're just getting into multi-pitch, I think it'll be simpler not to do that.
A more standard method is to lead on a single and trail a second rope from the back of your harness. While you're climbing, you probably won't even know it's there. Then, when you get to the top, you'll have two ropes with which to get down.
You also have a couple of other options. Some people have the second climber trail the other rope -- I don't like this, because if the other rope gets snagged, you have to lower the second back down to free it. If the route traverses much, you could be hosed :( .
My preferred method for a sub-60m-2-ropes-required route is this: Lead on one rope and leave the second on the ground -- don't bring up with you. Once you're both up top and ready to rappel, fix the rope and send one person down on a single strand. That person can then tie the end of the second rope to the end of the first and the man who remained up top can pull it up and rap on the doubles. With this method, you never have to carry two ropes. :D (Warning: don't use this method if you think you may have to rappel more than one rope length!)
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eastvillage
Jan 28, 2005, 3:26 PM
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You sound like you are very inexperienced. If the guide book says you need 2 ropes for a rap, it was stated for a reason.
Climbing at places like the Gods, is very developed, so most technical needs are well known.
Don't re-invent the wheel.
You should learn MUCH more before you try anything like this.
Read accident reports. Most fatalities happen while rappeling, its no joke.
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nthusiastj
Jan 28, 2005, 3:31 PM
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Kudos to J_ung for actually answering the freaking question.
If you don't want to trail the second line you can always have a thin second rope that will fit into a camelback or something. I do this and make my second carry it when rope drag may be an issue.
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drrock
Jan 28, 2005, 3:35 PM
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edit
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wjca
Jan 28, 2005, 3:39 PM
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If you chose the thin, static rope option as your second rope in the rappel (your lead rope being the other), could you go with a 6mm instead of 7mm? What about the knot? Would an overhand or double fisherman's be better for joining two ropes of different diameters?
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nthusiastj
Jan 28, 2005, 4:16 PM
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In reply to: If you chose the thin, static rope option as your second rope in the rappel (your lead rope being the other), could you go with a 6mm instead of 7mm? What about the knot? Would an overhand or double fisherman's be better for joining two ropes of different diameters?
I use a 9.2 dynamic rope for my second. It pulls double duty as a thin sport rope too.
Join em with a EDK. The Euro death knot helps your ropes to keep from getting stuck.
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cantbuymefriends
Jan 28, 2005, 5:27 PM
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In reply to: If you chose the thin, static rope option as your second rope in the rappel (your lead rope being the other), could you go with a 6mm instead of 7mm? What about the knot? Would an overhand or double fisherman's be better for joining two ropes of different diameters?
In my last post I stated this for a reason:
In reply to: You must however get some education on how to arrange the ropes at the top station
And asking questions on an internet board does not count as education in this case! Because if you have to ask, you probably doesn't have enough experience to separate the good advice from the potentially lethal ones...
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usafcadet
Jan 28, 2005, 5:47 PM
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dang99,
I've been up Montezuma's before and the North Ridge is about two feet wide. You can climb that with one 60 meter rope, but the way down is by a double rope rappel from the top down the east side. Rappeling back down the north ridge didn't seem like a very good idea when I was up there and the double rope rappel is just plain fun anyway.
The guidebook says that a couple of medium cams are useful, but I don't think they are really needed. Just quickdraws and a runner to sling a pothole will get you up it.
usafcadet
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sava6e
Jan 28, 2005, 8:07 PM
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i may be wrong with this, but i was taught that if your tying two ropes together of significantly diff diameters you shouldnt use a EDK, and that you should use an dbl fishermans. sorry if my previous post didnt make sense to some.
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danq99
Jan 28, 2005, 9:01 PM
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Thanks for the advice. I won't be doing anything without proper instruction first, but I was just doing some reading, and was curious. Thanx
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wanderinfree
Jan 28, 2005, 9:51 PM
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In reply to: If you don't want to trail the second line you can always have a thin second rope that will fit into a camelback or something. I do this and make my second carry it when rope drag may be an issue.
Course this brings a second problem...having to listen to your second whine their way up a chimney with a pack on. :wink: VIVA LES SECONDES!!!
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barnes33
Jan 28, 2005, 10:05 PM
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if montezuma is the one im thinking of, you dont need two ropes if you rappel down the west side onto the boulder. but its difficult to rappel down the spine and go back to the belay station. you dont want to fall and swing out. if you plan to rappel down the east side, then bring a second rope. but its been a few years since i climbed there and i cant exactly remember if i know what im talking about.
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tradkelly
Jan 28, 2005, 11:25 PM
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For Zuma in particular, the standard rap is down the east face and is just over 30m. A 70m rope is ideal for climbing the route and rapping without futzing around at the mid-way belay station (use some runners and the drag isn't bad at all for 1 long lead pitch, although communication with your second gets interesting). Rapping the route is not preferred - if you slip you go off one side or the other for a long ride, and then you're screwed if you aren't on a 70m - not to mention your ropes will probably be hung up. Other parties frequently climb up right after your second, so know your plan in advance and clear the anchors as quickly as you can. The normal manner to do the rap, without a 70m, is to tie two ropes together with a double fishermans or EDK with the knot placed on one side or the other of the top achor bolts, and to do a double rope rap. Pull the rope from the side with the knot and enjoy untying it on the ground. Capiche?
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wjca
Jan 29, 2005, 4:31 PM
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cantbuymefriends,
I'm not asking you to educate me, you asshat. I'm asking for the opinions of people who have actually tied together two ropes of different diameters in order to see what has worked for them. I am discerning enough to differentiate crap from good experience.
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kman
Jan 29, 2005, 5:49 PM
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In reply to: i may be wrong with this, but i was taught that if your tying two ropes together of significantly diff diameters you shouldnt use a EDK, and that you should use an dbl fishermans. sorry if my previous post didnt make sense to some.
I had to read your last post twice. It does make sense but is hard to sort out because it's one looooong sentence. Trying using periods...it will make it easier to read and understand.
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sava6e
Jan 31, 2005, 4:03 AM
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eh!! yeah i have problems wiht that sometimes, the whole sentance thing. anywho, hope this whole thread provides good reading to those trying to do a little research ahead of time, so they may have more ?'s to ask their instructor.
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