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kalcario
Jul 19, 2005, 4:22 AM
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http://www.latimes.com/features/outdoors/la-os-climb19jul19,0,7329911.story?coll=la-home-outdoors
One thing I thought the article failed to mention is how a few high-profile bums might have ruined it for everyone else...
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vivalargo
Jul 19, 2005, 4:39 AM
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But that was a pretty good piece, wouldn't you say Joe?
JL
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climbinginchico
Jul 19, 2005, 4:50 AM
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Damn good article...
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slobmonster
Jul 19, 2005, 4:52 AM
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I'm not Joe, but I'll say it was a good piece. We should all thank the editor for having the balls to publish it; maybe (without the bong reference) it could be sold to AP and printed all over the country.
Interestingly,
In reply to: A few high-profile climbing bums... |
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gunksgoer
Jul 19, 2005, 5:01 AM
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very well written and researched imo. Im sure some sympathetic non climbing tourists could be enlisted to adress some of the issues mentioned.
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kalcario
Jul 19, 2005, 5:11 AM
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Yeah DDuane's always good but I thought the counter-culture vs. authority theme was overplayed, and failed to mention that the behavior of a few high-profile bums left the NPS no choice but to enforce rules that had previously been loosely and selectively applied.
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nonick
Jul 19, 2005, 5:13 AM
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Climbers across the world probably face the same problem. I've been hauled up by the cops...and forest rangers. But its our duty to handle the situation with tact....
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overlord
Jul 19, 2005, 5:19 AM
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In reply to: One of the paranoias of the climbers," Lober says, "is that the rangers hate the climber. It couldn't be further from the truth. The law enforcement ranger can't tell a climber from the average citizen.
yes, right :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:
if a yosemite park ranger cant tell a climber from a "normal" tourist, then my mother is a duck.
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epoch
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Jul 19, 2005, 5:21 AM
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Astoundingly well written article. We need to have more positive voices in the valley for us. It is hard to defend our sport from those who misunderstand it.
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curt
Jul 19, 2005, 5:29 AM
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In reply to: http://www.latimes.com/features/outdoors/la-os-climb19jul19,0,7329911.story?coll=la-home-outdoors One thing I thought the article failed to mention is how a few high-profile bums might have ruined it for everyone else...
Shut up.
Curt
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g
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Jul 19, 2005, 5:40 AM
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In reply to: http://www.latimes.com/features/outdoors/la-os-climb19jul19,0,7329911.story?coll=la-home-outdoors One thing I thought the article failed to mention is how a few high-profile bums might have ruined it for everyone else... |
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kalcario
Jul 19, 2005, 5:53 AM
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*Then there are those high-profile climbers like Potter, Kauk, etc., that don't ruin it and have legal residence in the area.*
Exactly. Over-use of the Valley is a problem that everyone recognizes. If it's that important to you to climb there, then set up your life so you can go there, do what you gotta do, and get the hell out. Or figure out a way to stay there long-term legally. Either you're part of the over-use problem, or part of the solution.
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thefirstascentionizer
Jul 19, 2005, 5:56 AM
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In reply to: *Then there are those high-profile climbers like Potter, Kauk, etc., that don't ruin it and have legal residence in the area.* Exactly. Over-use of the Valley is a problem that everyone recognizes. If it's that important to you to climb there ... blahblahblahblahblah |
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theishofoz
Jul 19, 2005, 8:38 AM
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what a well written piece. i liked it a lot. i would definately sign a petetion to get the use of private vehicles out of the valley (if my signature was worth anything because im under 18)
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josephgdawson
Jul 19, 2005, 10:28 AM
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In reply to: what a well written piece. i liked it a lot. i would definately sign a petetion to get the use of private vehicles out of the valley (if my signature was worth anything because im under 18)
This is just silly. Who in the fuck wants to sit on a god damned shuttle bus with a bunch of other people to get driven through a PUBLIC park? P U B L I C. PUBLIC. Can you imagine standing in line with a bunch of fat tourists and other climber assholes waiting for a government shuttle that is running late, driven by some stooge in a uniform, to take you to within two miles of your destination? That is totally insane. "We regret to inform you that we will no longer offer stops near Cookie Cliff because rock climbers are destroying the eco system there." This is a classic example of deciding to burn down your house because the sink is dirty.
I have a better solution. Why dont we just ban people from the Valley and solve the problem. Then, only rangers and environmentalists will be permitted in the park since these self appointed stewards of public parks seem to be the only people who find themselves wise enough to use it. Oh yes, and they will be allowed to drive their cars in the park, because they NEED to.
Hell, last time I was on I-80 on a Saturday and Sunday, there was a lot of traffic on it - huge problem, very bad. Maybe we can start a petition to ban the use of private cars on I-80. Then, we could all ride busses and sing camp songs on a traffic free interstate. Let's ban travel on 120 and 108 while we are at it. Free government rides on eco-friendly bird shit burning shuttles for all.
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tradmanclimbs
Jul 19, 2005, 1:13 PM
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Zion has the shuttle system in place and they were really good about dropping us right where we neede to go. have not been there enough to know a locals opinion on how it is working though.
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booyuhka
Jul 19, 2005, 1:22 PM
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Haha... Very true and pretty funny... Nice post
In reply to: This is just silly. Who in the f--- wants to sit on a god damned shuttle bus with a bunch of other people to get driven through a PUBLIC park? P U B L I C. PUBLIC. Can you imagine standing in line with a bunch of fat tourists and other climber assholes waiting for a government shuttle that is running late, driven by some stooge in a uniform, to take you to within two miles of your destination? That is totally insane. "We regret to inform you that we will no longer offer stops near Cookie Cliff because rock climbers are destroying the eco system there." This is a classic example of deciding to burn down your house because the sink is dirty. I have a better solution. Why dont we just ban people from the Valley and solve the problem. Then, only rangers and environmentalists will be permitted in the park since these self appointed stewards of public parks seem to be the only people who find themselves wise enough to use it. Oh yes, and they will be allowed to drive their cars in the park, because they NEED to. Hell, last time I was on I-80 on a Saturday and Sunday, there was a lot of traffic on it - huge problem, very bad. Maybe we can start a petition to ban the use of private cars on I-80. Then, we could all ride busses and sing camp songs on a traffic free interstate. Let's ban travel on 120 and 108 while we are at it. Free government rides on eco-friendly bird s--- burning shuttles for all. |
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artaxerxes
Jul 19, 2005, 2:12 PM
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It is precisely because the park is public (or “P U B L I C”) that cars ought to be banned. In its current state, the park is a common good and is easily overexploited because each person’s use of a car is in their individual interest. As a result, everyone ends up acting in their personal interest, and then everyone ends up suffering, unless someone (generally, and in this case, the government) intervenes to promote a cooperative strategy. A better explanation of this phenomenon can be found in Garrett Hardin’s “The Tragedy of the Commons” (found in Science here).
Standing in line with “fat tourists and other climber assholes” is the price that we pay for the popularity of the park. Popularity is the double-edged sword that makes the park both possible (in the existential sense) and impossible (in the exasperating sense).
Your comparison with highway traffic represents the same problem on a grander scale, though the analogy does not hold, since the individual destinations of the traveling public far exceed those of tourists and climbers visiting a narrow geographic area.
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noshoesnoshirt
Jul 19, 2005, 2:25 PM
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Indeed.
Start a car-free, shuttle-only system and I'm certain the number of fat ass tourists would plummet.
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tradmanclimbs
Jul 19, 2005, 2:39 PM
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Yea! they hate haveing to actualy walk from their suv to the shuttle buss :shock:
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cedk
Jul 19, 2005, 2:49 PM
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1) Just because something is a public resource doesn't mean it's in the public's best interest for everyone to drive a car through it.
2) If you can't deal with a 2 mile approach down a sidewalk you're not going to make it.
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mrtristan
Jul 19, 2005, 3:01 PM
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Anyone else here read "Desert Solitaire" by Edward Abbey? His idea in crowded parks (and he actually mentions Yosemite) is to make everyone park outside the park and make them walk in, bike in, or take a mule or something. There would be shuttle for old and handicapped people, etc. This is my personal favorite way of solving the overcrowding problem. Won't happen, but yeah. Except... Can you imagine hauling your haul bag along? But hey, that's what the mules are for, I guess...
But in the end, more tourists = more money. Correct me if I'm wrong, but to me the park service seems less concerned about reducing the number of tourists and more concerned with just making sure they don't touch anything pretty.
-Tristan
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scuclimber
Jul 19, 2005, 3:07 PM
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In reply to: Anyone else here read "Desert Solitaire" by Edward Abbey? His idea in crowded parks (and he actually mentions Yosemite) is to make everyone park outside the park and make them walk in, bike in, or take a mule or something. There would be shuttle for old and handicapped people, etc. This is my personal favorite way of solving the overcrowding problem. Won't happen, but yeah. Except... Can you imagine hauling your haul bag along? But hey, that's what the mules are for, I guess... But in the end, more tourists = more money. Correct me if I'm wrong, but to me the park service seems less concerned about reducing the number of tourists and more concerned with just making sure they don't touch anything pretty. -Tristan
Yeah, the chapter on industrial tourism is good. Chapter 4 if I remember right.
Colin
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yetanotherdave
Jul 19, 2005, 3:10 PM
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if having a shuttle bus will reduce the flow of tourons, I'm all for it.
I totally agree that the number of cars in crowded parks like yosemite is a huge part of the problem, and that a well run shuttle service would do a ton to reduce the problem.
Also cheap bike rentals and bike-storage lockers in what are now parking lots would help a lot.
Maybe we should start one of those online petition pages...
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dingus
Jul 19, 2005, 3:30 PM
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In reply to: This is just silly. Who in the f--- wants to sit on a god damned shuttle bus with a bunch of other people to get driven through a PUBLIC park? P U B L I C. PUBLIC. Can you imagine standing in line with a bunch of fat tourists and other climber assholes waiting for a government shuttle that is running late, driven by some stooge in a uniform, to take you to within two miles of your destination?
Never been to Zion in season I take it?
I'm in favor of a bus, truck and then car ban in the Valley, in that order. But out-of-Valley parking would be stupid. What we need is to build a capacity-bearing parking garage, somewhere in the forest below the Leaning Tower, with the El Cap loop back as the primary turnaround. Then we COULD use electric busses and bicycles to motor around the Valley proper.
DMT
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