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boondock_saint
Jun 5, 2006, 6:22 PM
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Since I was way off in my initial assumption (and boy was I wrong) that a map with photos and route names/ratings is the same a guide book, I have decided to change the title and the OP.
You can continue the dicussion but I think I know what I need to know now.
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happiegrrrl
Jun 5, 2006, 8:05 PM
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Your profile states that you have been climbing since early 2005 - just over 1 year. Do you really feel qualified to do all the research that goes into developing a guidebook?
You do realize, I hope, that you are expected to write a guidebook from scratch, with your own research, collecting data and insight(route variations/grade discepencies/info on obscure routes/ FA info, etc.) from the local climbing community?
For example: Although not all guide authors do so, Dick Williams has made it a point to climb/reclimb every route in the Trapps when he updated his own previous guide. he is doing the same for the Nears, as he works on the update of that guide(again, his own work being updated)?
Either you do the work yourself(pictures/topos/route descriptions, etc.), or you rely on the locals to provide you with the information.
That is a hefty undertaking, to say the least.
To simply copy what you think is "useful" from another guidebook, and publish it as your own is......ummmmm.......wrong.
If you didn't intend to create your book of your own work, perhaps a better suggestion might be to contact the author, and see what their take is on things. Perhaps they are working on an abridged guide already; no doubt they'd be happy to have your help as a volunteer.
If you're intending to plagiarize....be prepared, if the area has any sense of community at all, to be ostracized.
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chikinv10
Jun 5, 2006, 8:18 PM
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you havent been climbing long enough to know what it takes to make a guide book.....i'd wait and listen to the guy above me.
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tradmanclimbs
Jun 5, 2006, 8:19 PM
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ditching the history is lame. No one who has only been climbing a year should attempt to author a guide book. Period!
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boondock_saint
Jun 5, 2006, 9:09 PM
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Yup those were pretty much my concerns. I don't want to piss off anyone and I do not intend to copy his book. I was planning to take all the pictures myself and a friend has also suggested that using his GPS device we could get a very accurate outline by saving waypoints on our way through the crag.
But what about route names/ratings? Would that be considered plagiarism? I mean that's factual information. He does use a 1-5 star rating system which I like and I've been trying to think of a good way to do something similar but without copying his stuff.
the history: I've read the history section several times ... at home. Never at the crag. I see no reason to lug around 100 pages of So Ill history everywhere I go. I also don't like how "bloated" it is otherwise. There are many pages where you have 3 pictures and 3 route-names per page.
Last, what does the amount of time I've been climbing have to do with my ability to make a decent book? (Or how long should I wait before I do it??) I don't think my climbing ability has anything to do with my ability to solve visual problems. I may be way wrong but the process of looking at a map and processing the information is pretty much the same for a 5.8 climber as well as 5.13 climber, no?
I am aware of how huge the undertaking is and I'm just trying to see if there is a point in doing it. I also figure this won't be finished for a while ... by then I'll be a 2-years-of-climbing-n00b and maybe people will get over it?
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chikinv10
Jun 5, 2006, 9:25 PM
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its not nessacarily your climbing abilities people are concerned with. it's the fact that there is NO way you could learn everything, history, routes, beta, FA's even in one area in one year. i'm not putting down that you might appreciate the climbing around you and climbing as a whole, but there is no way you can fully appreciate it after only one year. i've been climbing for half of my life and still cant fully appreciate what this sport is.
and i could also say why a 5.8 climber shouldnt make a guide book. a 5.13 climber can tell you what a 5.8 is like but it would be impossible for a 5.8 climber to tell what a 5.13 even looks like. again it's experience, i wouldnt try to make a book personally with your experience.
i dont want to get you down but no one will want a book telling about the history of a climbing area from someone who hasnt even been part of that history. whether routes are factual info or not, climbing guide books are WAY more then just routes and topos. theyre a text book of events of that area, the people, the places, the experience. i'd suggest listening for a few years before trying to write something down.
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caughtinside
Jun 5, 2006, 9:40 PM
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You've gotten some good comments here. If you really want some sort of 'select' guide or something, you should think about telling the guidebook author of your concerns.
Personally, I don't think carrying around one guidebook for a day of single pitch cragging is that onerous. If the size of the book is really a problem, consider tearing out the pages you need, or photocopying the stuff you will need for the day.
If the trail beta is all wrong, make notes on your copy of the guide. Consider sharing these notes with the author. Whether you like it or not, getting lost occassionally is part of climbing. There will never be a guide with perfect directions so long as trails continue to overgrow. However, that time spent thrashing around looking for climbs usually pays dividends down the road. But a guidebook won't make you an instant local, no matter how good it is.
Lastly, you have discovered the dilemma of the guidebook author. People are VERY critical of guidebooks, and look for problems with them. You can be assured that any decision to include or omit any information will result in a shitload of criticism.
Oh, as you may have noticed, if you try to write a guide as a newer climber to an area where there are lots of crusty dudes who have been climbing there for a long time, you will indeed be hated.
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boondock_saint
Jun 5, 2006, 10:01 PM
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Again, all good comments and I think you.
The idea behind the guide book is not to become an instant local. Or to become a part of history. It started as a personal thing. I would really like to remake the book into something great for myself. After hearing damn near everyone who ows a copy talk about how they want to tear out all the history pages (I think out of 330 or so pages only about 75 are needed). It's also stupid to pay 35 bucks for a book that you instantly want to shred down to about 1/3 of its size.
(The book weights almos 2 pounds btw.)
Then the idea went beyond: If I do end up making one for myself why not share it? Thus I posted here, to see how people would feel about that.
I can honestly say I have not looked at very many guide books but my ideas are to be simple, efficient and to the point (regardless of how everyone else before me did it). I guess most climbers I know don't feel the same about the guidebook history as some do here.
I'm kinda hesitant about contacting the author because from what I've been told indirectly, "he would not like hearing what I have to say." Sadly what I say is what most people say. I'll toss the idea around for a while though and I'll think about what to write him.
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brianinslc
Jun 5, 2006, 10:03 PM
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In reply to: I was planning to take all the pictures myself and a friend has also suggested that using his GPS device we could get a very accurate outline by saving waypoints on our way through the crag.
From the NPS website:
*************
Three Hikers Rescued from Heaps Canyon in Zion National Park
Date
June 02, 2006
Three overdue hikers, canyoneering in the backcountry of Zion National Park, were located and rescued by park search and rescue teams. The three hikers were successfully rescued from Heaps Canyon on Friday, June 2, 2006. The hikers apparently entered the wrong canyon when they relied upon Global Positioning Units to find their location instead of maps.
************************
Make mine functional without a GPS.
To address the other comments:
In reply to: 1. It's very big and about 1/2 of the book contains areas that rarely get traffic as well as a through history of So Ill climbing. I have read the history part and find it fascinating but I do not feel like lugging it around every time I hit the crag. I've heard almost everyone who owns a copy talk about tearing out pages or re-binding it. In fact it is not uncommon to hear this bit of conversation: "Hey, I'm carrying all the water so you should carry the book."
Goodness. I mean really. It fits in the top pocket of a pack. Its not the L.A. phonebook. Weighs as much as what, a liter of water? And its not like you have to hike that far anyhoo. And...take your copy of the guidebook to Kinkos and photocopy the section you'll need (for your own personal use, of course). Geez, this ain't rocket science.
In reply to: 2. It's very confusing. I can find routes by looking for nearby routes that I know well but trying to follow a direction on the map is nearly impossible.
Disagree. I'm not a local. Bought the book whilst on a business trip in Carbondale. Had no trouble locating Jackson Falls and the routes there. Ditto Cedar Bluff, etc. I thought it was pretty user friendly.
In reply to: 3. The topo's are not very good. I heard that the 2nd edition had the hand drawn topos that were much much better.
I thought they worked just fine.
In reply to: 4. Too many action shots that would be worthy of the rc.com front page and not enough shots of the actual routes and walls.
I really enjoyed the photo's. Maybe too few of them.
In reply to: 5. The price of the book is $35 which is pretty steep.
Standard. Count the number of routes and get a price per route. Compare to other areas. Its a bargan with that criteria.
In reply to: 1. Do you think it would be a bad idea to have two guide books out?
Depends. If you're less than a local and you're just going to copy the current guide, then yeah. If you're local, and, have contributed to the routes there, the trails, the history, the route maintanence, then, maybe.
In reply to: 2. Would I be wrong for making one with the improvements in mind.
Your reasons are pretty weak sauce. Wouldn't really be improvements, IMHO.
In reply to: 3. How much do you think is fair to charge for a guide book.
Depends on what you get. For a small area, with few routes and no history, then, not much. For a labor of love, with extensive history, multiple areas, many many many routes, then, 35 bucks is pretty reasonable. Also, looks to be a local job, which, even if it costs a tad more, I'd support the local little guy, versus a huge book company that comes in, rips off other folks' efforts, and uses their formulaic guidebook machine to mass produce a souless book that looks the same as every other book they produce (not that I don't own a ton of their books, and appreciate the infomation).
In reply to: 4. What would you like to see in a guide book?
Ever see the Vertical Heartland guidebook? Has it all.
My only complaint about the guidebook is, that it was hot when I was there, and my sweat smeared the front cover a tad bit.
A minor complaint, is, that I own a ton of guidebooks, and ones that don't have a spine with the name of the area on it, are very hard to find at a glance in my bookmess. But, that spiral spine is very functional, however.
If you are a local, then, you probably don't even need a guidebook. Those guys make the best guidebook authors, methinks. Ones that want to share their extensive experience in an area and provide other folks with that infomation. A give back to the greater climbing community.
Another point, is that prior to going to climb there, I solicited for beta on the area. A guy who lives in the vertical heartland emailed me with info and gave me some very good and specific beta on making my trip pretty darn pleasant. I appreciate that. That's a guy that should write the guidebook to the area...and...well I'll be darned...he was. As a result, I made a point to pick up the guidebook (even though I had a couple of other beta sources and could have gone without, given how short my trip was).
Support the local guidebook author. Don't support a johnny-come-lately rip off artist. Bad karma. Ain't got no soul.
Anyhoo, a few random thoughts....
-Brian in SLC
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pdx_climber
Jun 5, 2006, 10:06 PM
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You could always put all the info up at MountainProject.com. That site is a hell of a good resource in addition to printed guides and is the perfect way to fill in the gaps and get community feedback on routes.
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mdude
Jun 5, 2006, 11:04 PM
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Go for it dude.
Make a guide with 20 pages that is straight to the point. No extra crap. Right to the climbs with a number and if it is good bad or ugly.
These other people are just too sour. Highly critical too.
Not stealing but somehting that is better.
U dont have to be a climber to write a book and the best climbers cant write about climbing.
10 bucks update it every 18 months is there is active route establishment.
Everyplace has more than one guide. My area has like 5. Some all enclusive and some just for one area.
Even a falcon guide for the whole state.
Take six months and do it. Labor of your love.
MDUDE
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alpinismo_flujo
Jun 5, 2006, 11:08 PM
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Everyone has offered great advice! I only wish to emphasize the need for you to keep climbing; climb other areas and use different guidebooks. After you have gained years of climbing experience, then revisit your idea and see if you still have the same perspective...
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boondock_saint
Jun 5, 2006, 11:58 PM
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pdx, I was thinking bout that as well. Making the pdf's available online (or putting it online in some form). I feel that would be worse than making a book and selling it because then you would give people the decision of (free vs. 35 bucks). I know very few people that would spend the 35 bucks just because.
thanks for the support mdude. I don't want to call people names because I came here with a question and they answered. I wanted honest answers and I feel like I got them. I do feel sad that there's a sort of elitism going on. That only 5.14 climbers can write books because they have climbed all the routes. I expected that and now it's pretty much confirmed. I think that is silly. Do you think designers try on all the products they put into magazines? Do I need to know as much about Radar test equipment as the engineers at my work to make a good looking brochure/ad about it? The answer is no.
And there is actually a guide online in pdf form on Dr. Topo, very incomplete though, but I've seen people use it.
The guy who wrote about the hikers getting lost. You must have not really read my post. The gps would be used to get a basic outline of the crag (the path you take to get around). There would be no coordinates in the topo. It would be line drawing with different sections pointed out. Put in an order that makes sense (and if you're saying the So Ill 3rd edition topo guide makes sense you're just trolling, honestly) and lots of images of the actual rock with routes outlined on them, so you don't have to go hunting for a an obvious route and then back track (20 feet left of route A, which is 15 left of route B, and that is 20 feet left of route C, which is next to route D) and if a new line has been bolted since the book came out, happy hunting!
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boondock_saint
Jun 6, 2006, 12:03 AM
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And since climbing experience and level of climbing seem to be so important, please tell me how long do I need to climb (and how often per week/month should I climb) in order to achieve status. And how hard do I need to climb? Since I'm not sure I'll ever climb 5.13 can I get by with just 5.12c/d or something like that? Also do I need to be able to onsight at that level to be able to write/design or will redpoints count?
And pleaes don't just ball park it, this is serious stuff and I need accurate figures.
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feanor007
Jun 6, 2006, 12:10 AM
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i don't know what the so ill book is like, but if you want to see an AMAZING guide book, well worth every penny i payed for it, check out Ray Ellington's ne Red River Gorge guide book. Brilliant. so nice, that i might by a copy to keep at home and keep nice, and a copy to keep in my pack (nasty).
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guangzhou
Jun 6, 2006, 12:14 AM
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I have climbed in Southern Il quite a bit. The new guidebook just came out and seem prettyy complete.
I agree, writers do a better job at guidebook writing than climbers, but what new information can you add?
I just wonder is you wouldn't be condensing the guide that is already written without doing more research.
Also, keep in mind, Draper's Bluff is owned by the current guidebook author. You may want to contact him as a landowner before you advertise climbing on his property.
I like the odea of a selects routes overall, but I am not sure you are the most qualified to do. S.I. climbing comunity is prety tight nit, ask climbers at the crag what they think of you endevor.
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epoch
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Jun 6, 2006, 12:17 AM
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Soooooooooooooooooooooo,
What is wrong with tearing out the pages that YOU feel are useless and stapling/rebinding those that you want to keep. Also, no one has ever stated that it is unethical to write in your book.
Seeing as you state that it is difficult to find the start of some climbs by the descriptions, what makes you think that you can find these climbs, with the bad descriptions and rewrite them to make them better understood.
Just be lazy like the rest of the smart people and take what you need...
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caughtinside
Jun 6, 2006, 12:18 AM
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Hmm, sounds like you're making a little too much of the whole 'elitism' thing. It's not about 'climbing hard' but if you've only been climbing for a year, chances are you've pretty much learned to climb at this area. So you've been climbing there on weekend days for a year? There are likely people who are much more local to the area, have climbed there a ton more days than you, know the other locals, etc. Can you say the same?
And I guess climbing ability does has something to do with it. Let's say you climb .11a reasonably well, and can flail a bit on harder stuff. What percentage of the routes there would you say you can climb? If you can only climb 50% or so (made this number up) of the routes at the crag, are you really a qualified source of information?
And for stuff harder than you can climb, what is your source of information? Where do you get the info you know about that .12+? If you can't climb them, do you know the climbers who can, and get information from them? Or are you going to be copying it out of the current guide? So where the guide author tracked down climbers, and got the lowdown on the climb, the name, the grade, the number of bolts, and may have even climbed it himself, you just copy down the name and the rating?
If you wanted to do your own thing and post it for free on the web, I think that would be a lot cooler than charging. But what are you adding? Topos you drew, and some photos? And getting the rest of your info from the current guide?
Finally, if Draper's is on private property, and the owner is the guide author, I would strongly consider just letting it go and not pissing him off. Ya dig?
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pdx_climber
Jun 6, 2006, 12:41 AM
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In reply to: pdx, I was thinking bout that as well. Making the pdf's available online (or putting it online in some form). I feel that would be worse than making a book and selling it because then you would give people the decision of (free vs. 35 bucks). I know very few people that would spend the 35 bucks just because. |
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tradrenn
Jun 6, 2006, 3:01 AM
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In reply to: you havent been climbing long enough to know what it takes to make a guide book.....i'd wait and listen to the guy above me.
Just so you know "the guy above you" is a girl.
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chikinv10
Jun 6, 2006, 3:18 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: you havent been climbing long enough to know what it takes to make a guide book.....i'd wait and listen to the guy above me. Just so you know "the guy above you" is a girl.
sorry about that, i hope i didnt offend you. i was just using a general that "guy" term. i didnt see who it was that wrote it, just what they wrote. In the future ill look at the person before giving him or her a gender classification.
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guangzhou
Jun 6, 2006, 3:38 AM
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Posted: Mon Jun 05, 2006 7:18 pm
In reply to: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- tradrenn wrote: chikinv10 wrote: you havent been climbing long enough to know what it takes to make a guide book.....i'd wait and listen to the guy above me. Just so you know "the guy above you" is a girl. sorry about that, i hope i didnt offend you. i was just using a general that "guy" term. i didnt see who it was that wrote it, just what they wrote. In the future ill look at the person before giving him or her a gender classification.
To PC for me. If you're offended move on. I am offended that someone who climbs in SOuthern IL, that none of the local can identify would be willing to write a guide after one year of climbing experience.
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boondock_saint
Jun 6, 2006, 4:32 AM
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I would love to scan in some pages and post them and then post what I think would be a better version but since it says that you are not allowed to photocopy anything in the book I will do no such thing.
What I'm really having a big problem with is this mantra that someone has to climb hard and be a local to even qualify for writing a guide. Let the 5.13 climbers do what they do best, climb 5.13 and let the people who understand visual concepts deal with making maps that work.
Just because you worked on the empire state building doesn't mean you're leat bit qualified to be an architect, does it ??
Why don't I rip the pages out ? Why have them there in the first place if I don't want them???
I like what I do and I like climbing so I figured I'd combine both. It started as:
I could tear out pages I don't need -> I could make a better guide for myself -> I could make it available to others.
Now obviously if I went through with this I would talk to the locals to gather information. New routes have been put up and some old ones have been bolted so, of course, I would include this information and I would do my own research on this.
My concern was stepping on the original writer's toes, but you guys are way worse. You practically have to be dead and a legend to even be allowed in this elite circle.
If someone has been climbing for a year or two, and they are actually willing to put the effort into such a venture, what is so wrong with that?
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t-dog
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Jun 6, 2006, 5:47 AM
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In reply to: What I'm really having a big problem with is this mantra that someone has to climb hard and be a local to even qualify for writing a guide.
In reply to: Why don't I rip the pages out ? Why have them there in the first place if I don't want them???
Did you stop to think for a second that some people actually want that info? That not everybody thinks exactly the same way you do?
FYI, the Joshua Tree guidebook is a freakin' brick. Very few people complain about size/heft, even though 1+ hour hikes into to remote areas are common.
In reply to: My concern was stepping on the original writer's toes, but you guys are way worse. You practically have to be dead and a legend to even be allowed in this elite circle. If someone has been climbing for a year or two, and they are actually willing to put the effort into such a venture, what is so wrong with that?
If you're really out to "do the community a service", why not take the guidbook author out to dinner, offer him your graphic services to make a "select" version of the guide with his blessing and name on it? I doubt he would reject genuine help, if that's indeed what you're looking to offer.
Just cause you're a 2nd year architechture student and are willing to put the effort into designing a sky-scraper, doesn't make it a good idea. Chances are your lack of experience will condemn the project before it goes anywhere.
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guangzhou
Jun 6, 2006, 7:24 AM
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I know for a fact that Eric would welcome some help on the guidebook and would be open to selects climb if he was approached. Chances are he would give you some notes too, unless you’re a complete jerk.
I have never stated that you need to climb hard tow rite a guidebook. What I said was you need to have climbing experience. You've been climbing one year. Assuming you climb every weekend, you have a total of 52 days on the rock, since I am sure you climb on non-weekend days, so let's assume you have 52 climbing day in Southern Il.
How much can you really know about the three major areas?
How can tell me where to go?
Can I have the direction to “Conan” now?
I know I didn’t get up a lot of routes my first year and guidebooks were confusing, especially on my first trip to JT.
I have written three guidebooks and I am currently writing a fourth. The first one I wrote was to King's Bluff in TN. I had climbed there for three years. The crag was 20 minutes from home so I could average 3 days a week there. With the notes of the original guidebook author, the notes of climbers who established routes and my knowledge it still took me a year to get the info together and self-publish. That's about how long you've been climbing.
The thing I have discovered about writing guides is that everyone who picks up the book can "do it better."
If you're so sure you can do it better, why are you asking us?
Just write it.
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