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caughtinside
Jan 11, 2006, 9:58 PM
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Geez Jay, couldn't you at least pretend to get swept up in the hysteria? Maybe even a condemnation of CCH biz practices, or some sort of I-told-you-so to this 'cult of alien lovers?'
Thanks.
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skinner
Jan 11, 2006, 10:04 PM
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In reply to: If a little guy like Tom Frost can test every single one of his nuts, then surely CCH can too. Chouinard even went so far to stamp "tested" onto every one of his carabiners so that you knew it had been done. Regards, Kim
For me, and I am sure with many others it was CCH's handling of this gear failure and other recent deficiencies that we found more alarming then the incident's themselves. We even gave CCH another chance and begged Dave to re-think, re-word his response and give us something we could live with and carry on being die-hard alien users.
The unfortunate individual with the decapitated orange Alien handled the whole thing admirably despite being accused of everything from using the wrong cam in the wrong rock to staging an elaborate hoax. :roll:
Yet STILL most of us remain hopeful that in the end CCH will come around, step up to the plate and do the right thing.
I think Exxon would have been hard pressed to find this level of dedication and support. Support that dwindles with each day of inaction on CCH's part.
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j_ung
Jan 11, 2006, 10:05 PM
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Sigh... oh, OK.
Aliens! Run!
:D
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skinner
Jan 11, 2006, 10:11 PM
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Should rename the thread to:
"AREA 51 - ALIENS and CONSPIRACY THEORIES"
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billl7
Jan 11, 2006, 10:20 PM
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In reply to: This may seem like I'm arguing semantics, but there is a valid difference between a "recall" and a "return," ....
Certainly there has been some discussion between REI and CCH as to why the return or whatever. I hope REI didn't make up that the return concerned a smaller than expected expansion range.
Good point about the difference between "return" and "recall". Odd that "Jeremy" of REI did not dispute the title of the thread "REI Recall Orange Alien."
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throb
Jan 11, 2006, 11:15 PM
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I never buy gas at Exxon or Mobile, but I had forgotten why. It just seemed wrong. I now rememer it was because of the Exxon Valdez disaster. I stopped buying gas there and then forgot why, but the relationship between Exxon and bad was formed. Most of my Aliens are nearly 20 years old so hopefully there ok.
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angry
Jan 12, 2006, 12:40 AM
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I have taken numerous and big falls on every alien I own. I'm going to trust them.
I don't want to believe that there is a problem with alien. Us users of aliens have time and time again seen their magical ability to catch falls other cams couldn't have. And an even more magical ability to place solidly where nothing else on the market could have. Assuming they won't break and have been drilled right, they have no rival, no-one else is even close.
I worked there 6 years ago, my jobs included cleaning out the machines, deburring cam lobes, and sandblasting steel heads. I was there less than 2 months, I hated that job. The dogs incessantly barked and shit on the floor. I was the only employee that climbed. And the workers simply didn't get it "If man was meant to climb, god would have given him 8 arms" was something I heard on numerous occasions.
I didn't work there long enough to learn much of the processes, here is something I recall vividly. Dave sitting at a table downstairs, visually inspecting and reinspecting aliens before he'd send them out. I remember him bringing 10 and 15 aliens upstairs at a time to be rebuilt because something (inperceptable to me) was wrong. I remember deburring a cam lobe too close, and he'd notice. Or chamfering a brass sleeve too far, and he'd notice.
Dave was the most caring a concerned owner of a patent you could imagine, he put all of himself into every unit that went out. I can't hardly imagine what has changed. I sincerely hope that they recover from this. Without aliens, we are simply without aliens, there is nothing to replace them. The climbing community will suffer a great loss if aliens dissappear.
CCH has my business for life, though I may not buy any new ones this year.
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dingus
Jan 12, 2006, 12:47 AM
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In reply to: Dave was the most caring a concerned owner of a patent you could imagine, he put all of himself into every unit that went out. I can't hardly imagine what has changed. I sincerely hope that they recover from this. Without aliens, we are simply without aliens, there is nothing to replace them. The climbing community will suffer a great loss if aliens dissappear. CCH has my business for life, though I may not buy any new ones this year.
I thought it bore repeating angry. Thanks.
DMT
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avitripp
Jan 12, 2006, 1:06 AM
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anyone wanting to rid themselves of those aliens pm me. cash on the barrel head. i'm serious.
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porcelainsunset
Jan 12, 2006, 1:33 AM
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So I just emailed REI today to try and get ahold of their buyer. I did this after I called and talked to the manager of my local store who knew nothing of the events. I wanted to post this so that you all can see what REI is doing about this, it is on all three forums relating to the issue. I was also wondering what any of you thought about what I am asking of REI. I typically am not their greatest fan, but figured that they would have the best bet of whipping CCH into shape. I hate to see their product go downhill. Anyway, this is what the email said.
Hello,
I am trying to get a hold of the buyer in charge of dealing with CCH and their product Aliens. They make a rock climbing cam that you sell.
Recently on Rockclimbing.com there has been an issue of strong concern regarding aliens. A person posted that he had one of his Aliens (Orange) fail on him at a very low impact. The cam cables separated at the point of the braze. This caused the cam to pretty much break. The customer posted this alarming incident online at the following thread.
http://www.rockclimbing.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=104150&postdays=0&postorder=asc&topic_view=&start=0
This is how CCH responded to the claim.
The Silver brazed connections on Aliens are made by experienced ,skilled people who take great care in the quality of the braze. The accusations being made on this site are quite serious .
An examination by a certified metallurgical lab on the device in question is necessary in order to prove or disprove the claims made regarding alleged failure of the brazed connection. Without an actual report by a lab we will assume this is a staged hoax.
The cable on a 1.5 orange alien will hold over 3500 pounds, far more force than a falling climber could ever generate. When tested on a machine the cable will break ,not pull out of the cable eye.
David Waggoner at CCH
The thread where that post is made is http://www.rockclimbing.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=104279&postdays=0&postorder=asc&topic_view=&start=0
Following the post made by Dave, there is 16 pages of outrage and concern made largely by CCH supporters who where offended at the response to the troubling situation.
In response to the post, Mountain Gear, who was following the thread, said that they decided to do a test of their own. After their test they found that 33% of the cams from random batches and sizes failed at a rate below the standard given to them by CCH.
The link to that thread is below
http://www.rockclimbing.com/topic/104768
The reason why I am writing is to try and get a hold of the buyer from REI to see if these issues have been brought to your attention.
I recently bought over $300 worth of CCH Aliens from your Portland Oregon, and Tualatin Oregon stores. I was wondering if you had the batch numbers that both of these stores have received so I could figure out what batch number my cams belonged to. Please check my account to see when I bought them if you need to, I don’t have the receipts, but it was about a week ago. I bought all of them except the blue and the yellow at Portland, and the blue and yellow I bought at Tualatin because Portland was out.
I was also wondering about your return policy on these items. REI dose have a 100% guarantee, but I am not positive that the guarantee applies to rock Protection, or climbing ropes and harnesses. This would be good to know.
I was wondering if you could look into the fiasco and see if a re-call is needed. Although I am a loyal member of the CCH cult (I love their cams) I do not feel safe with my purchase because of the recent failures. CCH has a history of not issuing recalls of defective gear even when the problems where brought to their attention. For an example, a few months ago there was an issue with the drilling of the Orange cam lobes. This resulted in the cams strength being compromised at best, and rendered useless at worse. There still has been no recall of these cams.
CCH currently dose not individually test their cams, and I hold the burden to pressure CCH into a policy of doing so in the hands of REI. It is not your responsibility to test their product, nor is it mine. (I do understand that my life is in my own hands while climbing and I will test my own gear before I use it, however, one should feel safe and assured that they are being sold quality product from a store as professional as yours. Asking CCH to test their product through the use of NDT (Non Destructive Testing) to make sure that it holds under reasonable situations would fulfill this requirement.)
I ask that the situation be looked into fully, and that REI plays a part in assuring its customers that the cams purchased from their stores are safe to climb with. If there is any compromise to safety through cam strength I ask that a recall be put into action.
I would also recommend that REI monitor the threads that I listed above. I would find it wise of you to make a post on each of these forms letting your customers know that you are doing everything in your power to assure your customers of their safety and the quality of the products that you are selling. Much like Mountain Gear has, and unlike CCH. I understand that these forms are not the arena for these proceeding to take place, however they are a great resource for communicating to the climbing community. Many are concerned, and there is talk of a massive boycott of CCH, possibly resulting in its termination.
I urge you to play a part in the forthcomings of these events, for the interest of yourself, climbers, and the community as a whole.
Sincerely,
Taylor Anderson
REI should respond by the end of tomorrow, and I will let you know what they have to say about it. They are still selling possibly defective cams, and their store managers are not aware of these issues.
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crimpstrength
Jan 12, 2006, 1:39 AM
Post #239 of 522
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sunset,
I called my local rei earlier today. The gentleman I spoke with told me there is an internal safety warning and all CCH products have been removed from rei shelves. He told me that while there may not be an official recall notice, the company (rei) has acknowledged that there is an issue and has chosen to remove the product from their shelves. He told me along with the safety notice there is the effort, as always with rei, to return/exchange/refund for any reason.
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climboard
Jan 12, 2006, 2:44 AM
Post #240 of 522
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In reply to: I didn't work there long enough to learn much of the processes, here is something I recall vividly. Dave sitting at a table downstairs, visually inspecting and reinspecting aliens before he'd send them out. I remember him bringing 10 and 15 aliens upstairs at a time to be rebuilt because something (inperceptable to me) was wrong. I remember deburring a cam lobe too close, and he'd notice. Or chamfering a brass sleeve too far, and he'd notice. Dave was the most caring a concerned owner of a patent you could imagine, he put all of himself into every unit that went out. I can't hardly imagine what has changed. I sincerely hope that they recover from this. Without aliens, we are simply without aliens, there is nothing to replace them. The climbing community will suffer a great loss if aliens dissappear. CCH has my business for life, though I may not buy any new ones this year.
Perhaps this system worked up until this year, but obviously QA slipped somewhere along the way, perhaps due to increased volume? For all we know it could have been one less than skilled employee.
I am glad to hear Dave cares deeply about his product, I just hope he cares enough to re-evaluate his QA process and fix what is broken.
I too believe Aliens are a great product deserving of the reputation they've had up until this point but I don't see myself buying any in the future unless I know they've introduced more stringent quality controls.
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shazinky
Jan 12, 2006, 2:46 AM
Post #241 of 522
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In reply to: 1. No Aliens have ever been recalled by anybody for any reason. CCH never initiated a recall and neither did REI. REI did pull their entire stock of orange Aliens from the sales floor and send them all back to CCH. This may seem like I'm arguing semantics, but there is a valid difference between a "recall" and a "return," most notably the party that initiated the action and the extent to which either party goes to retreive the units in question. In this case, REI initiated a VOLUNTARY RETURN of units still in stock, not a RECALL. Jay
I spoke with the store manager at my local REI Santa Rosa,Ca and asked them if they had recalled the orange alien and she said yes. Can't be anymore clear than that. she did not say "oh no this is a voluntary return" I also spoke with CCH got a hold of them first try and they answered my questions adequately. And they are paying for the testing of the shattered cam.
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curt
Jan 12, 2006, 4:30 AM
Post #242 of 522
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In reply to: In reply to: Dave was the most caring a concerned owner of a patent you could imagine, he put all of himself into every unit that went out. I can't hardly imagine what has changed. I sincerely hope that they recover from this. Without aliens, we are simply without aliens, there is nothing to replace them. The climbing community will suffer a great loss if aliens dissappear. CCH has my business for life, though I may not buy any new ones this year. I thought it bore repeating angry. Thanks. DMT
When things like this come up, I believe it is important to maintain a proper perspective. I personally think CCH has a serious QC related manufacturing issue to address--that may have existed for some time. Does that mean that Dave doesn't care about what goes out the door at CCH? No. Does that mean that Aliens are crap? No. This merely means that CCH must step up to the plate, admit there is a problem and then fix the problem. Trying to make more out of the current Alien problem and turn it into some sort of RC.com soap-opera really serves no good purpose.
Curt
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barc
Jan 12, 2006, 4:57 AM
Post #243 of 522
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I don't mean to be a dick, but the Exxon analogy is stupid. It doesn't apply here at all. I'm not saying you're just letting us all know how dedicated you are to your cause, but ... j/k
Plus, now we all have to read everyone else's uneducated opinion about Exxon. There are plenty of blogs out there for that.
I'm still going to climb on my aliens. See, I never eat chicken...
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kimgraves
Jan 12, 2006, 12:56 PM
Post #244 of 522
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In reply to: I don't mean to be a dick...
:lol: :lol: :lol: Okay, dude, how old are you really?
In reply to: I never eat chicken...
Perfect for your tombstone! But you'll rest easy. I'll be honored to nominate you for a Darwin award.
In reply to: I don't mean to be a dick...
:lol: :lol: :lol:
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healyje
Jan 12, 2006, 1:48 PM
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I too want to reiterate that I think most of us following these threads probably believe Dave is passionate about and deeply committed to Aliens and CCH. But that isn't an issue here as much as the need and willingness to grow CCH's culture and processes in tandem with the demands of large contracts like the one with REI. At some point it just can't stay a one-man show. Neither Dave nor anyone else can "do it all" and still expect to scale the business. Somewhere along the way it takes more than one person to insure everything gets done and done right. My sense is CCH needs a someone to own sales and customer service, another for [manufacturing] operations, and a third to run the business. Maybe he can manage one or two of those roles, but I think what we are seeing is an inability to be "everything to everyone". No matter how passionately he would like to hold on to all those reins, all this probably means it's time to risk letting go of some of them and allow other's to help out. Now that can be an understandably scary prospect for a lot of growing businesses, but it's one they all have to make somewhere along the way if they want to play and grow in the real world.
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oldrnotboldr
Jan 12, 2006, 5:02 PM
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I, like others, have been reading these posts with interest. A couple points I noticed is that although the CCH management replied to the issue(s) in a not very customer oriented manner, they are paying for the testing on the cam and have responded to others calls.
Also, Scottquig noted that a cam could pass inspection and visual checks yet fail when equal or greater force is applied. The indication is that a material flaw may or may not be visually noticable and may or may not fail the first time.
There have been two(?) documented braze failures,, out of how many manufactured? Looking at these points, maybe the issue is not so much the QA but in the material procurement or supplier QA. Yet either way it is CCH's responsibility to correct and monitor their suppliers. And from other posts, it sounds like they are putting some effort into actions.
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healyje
Jan 12, 2006, 5:17 PM
Post #247 of 522
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In reply to: There have been two(?) documented braze failures.
I believe MGear's testing brings it up to five brazing failures, two climbing and three testing...
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oldrnotboldr
Jan 12, 2006, 5:22 PM
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Healyje wrote:
In reply to: I believe MGear's testing brings it up to five brazing failures, two climbing and three testing...
Yes, I just noted my error there. Thanks much.
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bspisak
Jan 12, 2006, 6:14 PM
Post #249 of 522
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I'm sure REI found out about this from local stores after the first orange alien post on this site. I recieved an orange alien for my birthday in early November from REI and it had the off-center axel problem. I returned it and talked to the store manager who asked that I send the info off the thread. I'm sure I'm not the only one out there who did so. Eventually corporate pulled the cams.
Fyi, here's the thread from Feb 2005 when quitemonk had a failure.
http://www.rockclimbing.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=80507
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qtm
Jan 12, 2006, 8:43 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: Hey everyone, I wanted to let you in on another interesting little factoid that I learned today. The e-mail address listed on cch's website is old and no longer in use. Their new e-mail address is: cchaliens@aol.com Thought you might want to know. Kevin From a marketing perspective, I find it to be BEYOND BIZARRE that any company would choose to switch to a third party email account, rather than using an email account based upon their own domain...
Probably just the volume. Maybe on a regular day they get 1000 messages, but that's jumped to 10,000 a day. Their local ISP might not be able to handle all that mail, but for the AOL mail servers it's just a drop in a bucket. Maybe it's bandwidth, all the mail coming in their small pipe is affecting their website, so they reroute it to the AOL servers. It's not unheard of.
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