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remi
Nov 4, 2005, 8:38 PM
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Do they make plastics out of oil or natural gas? Don't forget to not fly for your vacation and eat only locally sourced produce :wink:
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blonde_loves_bolts
Nov 4, 2005, 8:57 PM
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thorne and tgreene must be seriously MIA today, or else this thread would be at about seven pages by now...
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pharmboy
Nov 4, 2005, 8:59 PM
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So both of my senators voted "nay"... which is not good? I can't understand these damn bills... a no vote is bad while a yes vote is good... ahhhh!!!!
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phatcat
Nov 4, 2005, 10:04 PM
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In reply to: I hope that everyone who has posted in this thread so far carpools, rides their bike, and drives a reasonably efficient vehicle (35mpg+). If you don't meet those requirements, it's your dollars that are supporting the oil industry and paying for their stranglehold on American politics. Buck up and make some personal sacrifices, or shut the f--- up.
well i just dont own a car..so i guess i cant post in this thread anymore... :wink:
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atg200
Nov 4, 2005, 10:07 PM
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i do try to buy as much local produce as i can, though that breaks down in the winter. i grow an awful lot of what i eat too. not flying for my vacation is not going to happen though - i'm trying to reduce my impact, not eliminate it.
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dxmetal
Nov 4, 2005, 11:07 PM
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The government should stop subsidizing gasoline oil and let the market determined its true value. Then tax it heavily and channel the money to better our infrastructure system (bike lanes, shower lockers, bike lockers, car pool incentive ...etc) and alternative clean fuel research.
Once price of gas is constant at $8.99 per gallon, people will be forced to start thinking about their transportation needs and travel methods.
The US is the most technological advanced nation on the earth today and yet Honda and Toyota are the two car makers that successfully pushed hybrid vehicles to the market a few years back, while Detroit was busy pimpin its v12 9 liter 12 passenger SUV to the consumer.
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remi
Nov 4, 2005, 11:20 PM
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The shitty thing in NA is that we've designed our entire society around cheap oil..huge spraling subdivisions, shops that are miles away from where everyone lives. The euros all live in crappy apartments downtown so trains are a good idea..don't know what we're going to do.
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boondock_saint
Nov 4, 2005, 11:54 PM
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And we also need to stop wasting oil on disposable products
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dxmetal
Nov 7, 2005, 8:49 PM
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Do something about it !
http://ucsaction.org/campaign/extreme_auto_makeover?
http://www.ucsusa.org/
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thorne
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Nov 7, 2005, 9:03 PM
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In reply to: What amazes me most about this issue is that even the most hardened right wing American capitalis should realised that buy opening up drilling in northern Alaska, they are effectively opening the nation LAST domestic oil reserve. After this the USA’s got nothing. Nadda’. Zip. Zilch. Zero oil left.
Were do you people come up with this stuff?
The sky is falling, the sky is falling! Yeeeeaaaaaarrrrrggggh. :lol:
We have over a 100 year supply. Hahaha
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thorne
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Nov 7, 2005, 9:11 PM
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If you people want something to be pissed off about, look at the consistent non-enforcement of MPG standards that should have been applied to the automakers. Here's a hint - SUVs are technically trucks, which are considered "commercial" vehicles and therefore are exempt from passenger vehicle MPG criteria.
Another huge stinker (pun intended) is the bullshit changes in the Clean Air Act as they apply to power company smokestack emissions.
Yeah, I know I'm talking about pollution, not resource depletion. One has to do with fucking over all Americans and the other has to do with a free market economy.
Something to think about.
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boadman
Nov 7, 2005, 10:03 PM
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Is that statistic from the land of those who make things up to please right wingers?
Proven Reserves: 21.9 BB barrels.
Annual Consumption: 20 mm Barrels/day * 365 = 7.3 BB Barrels
That looks more like around three years. Hmmm. Where are you getting your data? Is it based on predictions of how much we'll find in the future? Rates of new finds have been dropping on average 13% every year for the last 50. Hmmm. Ever heard of peak oil? Hubbard has been proven right with every prediction so far. Could you be basing your numbers on Oil Shale? Regardless, you're wrong.
In reply to: In reply to: What amazes me most about this issue is that even the most hardened right wing American capitalis should realised that buy opening up drilling in northern Alaska, they are effectively opening the nation LAST domestic oil reserve. After this the USA’s got nothing. Nadda’. Zip. Zilch. Zero oil left. Were do you people come up with this stuff? The sky is falling, the sky is falling! Yeeeeaaaaaarrrrrggggh. :lol: We have over a 100 year supply. Hahaha |
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thorne
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Nov 8, 2005, 1:06 PM
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In reply to: Ever heard of peak oil? Hubbard has been proven right with every prediction so far.
In reply to: Could you be basing your numbers on Oil Shale? Regardless, you're wrong.
Yep, shale. Nasty stuff with horrendous waste byproducts. I'd rather we never have to use it. However, it does poke a big ole hole in slavetogravity's assertion that "after this the USA’s got nothing. Nadda’. Zip. Zilch. Zero oil left."
Then again, you could be correct in saying I'm wrong. How so?
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remi
Nov 9, 2005, 4:13 AM
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Ah but to use the oil shale you'd also need huge new fields of natural gas, or coal or nuclear power I guess...plus a whole ocean of water, which is also liable to be in short supply by the time the oil's getting low.
One thing I've wondered about when we say we need to conserve oil is what timespan are we looking at? So say the US has a 100 years left, well maybe they can stretch it to 200, what then? It's like being at a big party and being drunk, you could save that last beer and have it tomorrow, but really you'd rather drink it now and get plastered. So I think we're not going to conserve any oil at all, we'll have one last big blowout and do what drunks always do, deal with it in the morning. :)
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12volt_man
Nov 9, 2005, 4:27 AM
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Sounds like a good time for some serious monkeywrenching.
Long live Ned Ludd. Long live George Hayduke.
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deltav
Nov 9, 2005, 4:46 AM
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We have studied this extensively in grad school. I am an environmental engineer. Even the liberal professors at the unni say that there is plenty of oil there. We have done extensive cost analysis, and impact studies.
Point is , there is never going to be an answer that everyone can agree on. How about nuclear power? Its cheap, clean, abundant and safe.
Can't wait to hear the arguments against that.
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remi
Nov 9, 2005, 8:41 PM
Post #43 of 68
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In reply to: We have studied this extensively in grad school. I am an environmental engineer. Even the liberal professors at the unni say that there is plenty of oil there. We have done extensive cost analysis, and impact studies. Point is , there is never going to be an answer that everyone can agree on. How about nuclear power? Its cheap, clean, abundant and safe. Can't wait to hear the arguments against that.
I'll take a wack at it...they're not particularly cheap to build, maybe to run. Clean? Uhhh....except for the whole radioactive waste thingy, abundant yup, that's true. As for safety, yeah, unless they break. I'd say the biggest knock against them is it won't fit in a Honda civic.
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justafurnaceman
Nov 10, 2005, 12:34 AM
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Higher gasoline prices are a problem for us here in New England. For all of you that want prices to rise up to 6,7,8 dollars a gallon, it would be hurting a lot of people.
Oil is the number one source of heat for people here. Jacking up gas prices means that oil prices are going to rise also. Being the number one state for people that are on a fixed income, people are having to make serious choices of how they are going to spend their money. Some are deciding between oil or food, clothes, or other needed items.
We could burn wood as an alternative heat source but because of the higher gas prices, diesel is also more expensive. Thus in order to harvest the wood, loggers have to pass the expense on to the consumers. Wood prices went from $60-80 a cord (tree length) to $100-120 a cord. Cut and split is now up to $150 a cord. Plus most homes aren't set up to burn wood so one would have to buy a new boiler/ furnace, pipe up the system, and put in a new chimney (one fuel per flue). A cost of roughly $6000.
Increased gas prices mean increased cost of living. Even Wal Marts low, low prices would have to go up if diesel prices rose and stayed constantly at $7 a gallon. The low incomed/ fixed income people wouldn't shop there anymore.
I agree that something has to be done.
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memory_hole
Nov 10, 2005, 1:00 AM
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In reply to: How about nuclear power? Its cheap, clean, abundant and safe. |
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thorne
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Nov 10, 2005, 1:22 PM
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In reply to: My understanding is that, absent government subsidies, nuclear power isn't particularly cheap.
In reply to: Given the number of former reactor/current superfund sites out there, it's hard to swallow "clean".
In reply to: 3 Mile Island and Chernobyl come to mind on the "safe" front. |
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dxmetal
Nov 11, 2005, 6:55 AM
Post #47 of 68
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In reply to: Higher gasoline prices are a problem for us here in New England. For all of you that want prices to rise up to 6,7,8 dollars a gallon, it would be hurting a lot of people.
I do agree that initially this will burden quite a number of the population. However, if we look at it in a long term, it is certainly more viable than trying to implement a short term damaging, non effective hasty solution such as drilling the puny oil reserves in ANWR.
The govt might be able to channel the aid away from the fuel pump (if you are #$$#@ enough to drive a Hummer and pollute the envirnoment, you ought to pay a high price for it (ozone, smog, exhaust pollutions ..etc)) and direct the money and subsidize the people's home heating and energy consumption.
I also heard last year about the insentive and subsidizing from the state for the implementation of solar panels in new houses in one of the southern states (maybe it was New Mexico or Arizona).
In my mind, the greatest single cause of inflated energy(oil) consumption today lies in the hand of the motorist. There is no doubt in my mind that, everywhere you look today maybe it be in the suburb, urban, suburban, country ...etc, there are a lot of single passenger motorist that parades around in their V12, 10 mpg, 4 wheel drive 12 passenger SUV.
You also heard in the news that with this late summer's peaked oil prices, Detroit is experiencing the drop of their truck and SUV sales. People are also begining to take interest of the envirnoment by car pooling and car sharing to work. The interest of hybrid or eletric car in the US is also very encouraging dued to the high prices at the pump.
I also know that consumer now knows how to time and manage their "local chores". For example, instead of going to town for the supermarket alone 3x a week, a lot of families now "time" their outing schedule. Example, they might just go to town once or twice a week with the whole family and get everybody's chores done in that single run. Example, paying the bills, going to post office, buying grocery, going to petstore, bookstore ....etc).
Finally, we also now see the sense of urgency with the politicians in order to tackle the problem of rising oil and energy prices. That is a good sign, unfortunately they choose the wrong solution for the problem.
As long as Washington continues to support and subsidize petroleum oil, there will be no motivation for the average motorist to be more thrifty on their consumption of the finite non renewable "black gold". Nonetheless, everybody else in the rest of the world today, is already paying the true "market price" for oil.
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justafurnaceman
Nov 11, 2005, 11:03 PM
Post #48 of 68
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In reply to: In my mind, the greatest single cause of inflated energy(oil) consumption today lies in the hand of the motorist. There is no doubt in my mind that, everywhere you look today maybe it be in the suburb, urban, suburban, country ...etc, there are a lot of single passenger motorist that parades around in their V12, 10 mpg, 4 wheel drive 12 passenger SUV.
It's amazing what you see in the grocery store. A lady was leaving the store driving Ford 350 King cab with a full size bed and she was all alone.
How can these people afford it?
It's different seeing the construction guys picking something up on the way home.
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reno
Nov 12, 2005, 6:27 PM
Post #49 of 68
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In reply to: The govt might be able to channel the aid away from the fuel pump (if you are #$$#@ enough to drive a Hummer and pollute the envirnoment, you ought to pay a high price for it.
Just food for thought: A brand new Hummer, while flashy and expensive and lousy on the gas mileage, will not pollute nearly as much as an old, 1970's Buick. Emission standards are much tougher now then before.
1970 Buick: 12 miles/gallon, excessive exhaust, grandfathered in to avoid having to pass an emissions test.
2005 Hummer: 10 miles/gallon, far less exhaust, must pass an emissions test yearly.
Something to think about.
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rufusandcompany
Nov 12, 2005, 6:30 PM
Post #50 of 68
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In reply to: In reply to: The govt might be able to channel the aid away from the fuel pump (if you are #$$#@ enough to drive a Hummer and pollute the envirnoment, you ought to pay a high price for it. Just food for thought: A brand new Hummer, while flashy and expensive and lousy on the gas mileage, will not pollute nearly as much as an old, 1970's Buick. Emission standards are much tougher now then before. 1970 Buick: 12 miles/gallon, excessive exhaust, grandfathered in to avoid having to pass an emissions test. 2005 Hummer: 10 miles/gallon, far less exhaust, must pass an emissions test yearly. Something to think about.
The comparison will become more relevant when and if we calcuate which will hurt us the most - pollution or a depletion of resources.
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