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tattooed_climber
Jan 5, 2006, 1:21 AM
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david better make another response cus everyone is assuming he/cch are ignorant #&*(#%(@*%^(*%@%@'s....
fuck, cus of all the shit lately (and due to the latest, cam fucked up ness) i'm holding back on buying two sets of aliens for my aid rack...thats some serious cash for me....i'm lookin at zeros and offset friends now
as a steel fab/welder/fitter, i know where david is sort of coming from...Brazing is FUCKING STRONG, ....look at the surface area involved, though brazing isn't a weld...still is very unlikely for a braze to break before the cable....and he's too proud/confident to say there is/was any unknown bosched brazings....after all, look at it from HIS point of view, THIS IS THE FUCKING INTERNET!!!!!!!!!!!!!! BULLSHIT DOES EXIST ON THE INTERNET...and a photo isn't 100% proof....taking the fucked up cam to a metallologist is....AS WELL, david didn't say if he's talked/mailed the dude(or dudes) with the fuckedup cams yet AND he didn't specify that the DUDE should take it to a lab himself or if CCH will, he was speaking in general terms...
NOW EVERYONE, smoke some ganja and calm down abit....
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codhands
Jan 5, 2006, 1:21 AM
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David, you're a ding-dong.
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dingus
Jan 5, 2006, 1:41 AM
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My how things would be different if he said,
'never happened before. Please send us the cam ASAP, we'll investigate and report our findings.'
If it was a hoax, cam never shows up.
If its for real, CCH gets a chance to deal with it.
When I seel guys like Malcom engage, share info, and by gawd stick up for CCH too while he's at it, and used to see Chris Harmston do the same for BD, I realize how much opportunity other manufacturers are missing out on; community service, customer support, fostering good will.
I don't think it is wise at all for a vendor to be taking the 'dismissive' approach.
DMT
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davidji
Jan 5, 2006, 1:45 AM
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In reply to: When I seel guys like Malcom engage, share info, and by gawd stick up for CCH too while he's at it, and used to see Chris Harmston do the same for BD, I realize how much opportunity other manufacturers are missing out on; community service, customer support, fostering good will. |
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iamcolinslack
Jan 5, 2006, 1:55 AM
Post #30 of 246
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love my tcus! 8^)
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kpalsson
Jan 5, 2006, 1:57 AM
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What's chris doing these days? I miss him. When chris was around, if you had questions, chris answered them. And if it was novel, he ran tests, and then answered them. BD these days seems a lot more handsoff.
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davidji
Jan 5, 2006, 2:06 AM
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In reply to: What's chris doing these days? I miss him. When chris was around, if you had questions, chris answered them. And if it was novel, he ran tests, and then answered them. BD these days seems a lot more handsoff. |
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woutdoor
Jan 5, 2006, 2:17 AM
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FLAMER Wrote In reply to: ( had an ulterior(sp?) motive. In my personal dealings with CCH they have been extremely easy to deal with and respectful/appreciative of their customer base. I, for one ,will continue to use the quality product that CCH provides. ) |
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dynosore
Jan 5, 2006, 2:49 AM
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I bought my first couple aliens from tradrack just a few weeks ago and was looking forward to using them. I have some serious questions now, and won't be buying anymore until this is resolved and the resolution is made known. Hit em in the pocketbook.
joe climber
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clippedclimbing
Jan 5, 2006, 3:44 AM
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I gotta say, you folks are a bunch of whining sniveling gerbals. CCH does have the utmost intention to manufacture very safe gear. It is not that Dave does not care, he is just not big city/corporately polished. His head is in making you your beloved aliens, not fighting hypotheticals on the internet.
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cortezmachine
Jan 5, 2006, 3:47 AM
Post #36 of 246
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just a quick observation...
if the cable should break before it pops out of the eye then how did he get it out, and why didnt his cable break when (if its a hoax) he was pulling it out?
edit:
another thing, the axle and eye look to be unscathed, how would he have pulled the cable out without damaging anything ? only way i can think of is if he heated it with a torch. but even then there would be scorch marks
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dingus
Jan 5, 2006, 3:53 AM
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In reply to: I gotta say, you folks are a bunch of whining sniveling gerbals. CCH does have the utmost intention to manufacture very safe gear. It is not that Dave does not care, he is just not big city/corporately polished. His head is in making you your beloved aliens, not fighting hypotheticals on the internet.
Good thing he's got you to carry his water for him.
But I'm afraid I'll have to write you off as a hoax.
DMT
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dudemanbu
Jan 5, 2006, 5:05 AM
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I rate CCH's reply a T-6.
:wtf:
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skinner
Jan 5, 2006, 5:59 AM
Post #39 of 246
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In reply to: My how things would be different if he said, 'never happened before. Please send us the cam ASAP, we'll investigate and report our findings.' If it was a hoax, cam never shows up. If its for real, CCH gets a chance to deal with it. When I seel guys like Malcom engage, share info, and by gawd stick up for CCH too while he's at it, and used to see Chris Harmston do the same for BD, I realize how much opportunity other manufacturers are missing out on; community service, customer support, fostering good will. I don't think it is wise at all for a vendor to be taking the 'dismissive' approach. DMT
dingus said it best, he screwed up an opportunity here.
If you have actually READ the thread(s), you will see that the majority of posters are (were) die hard alien fans and not a lynch mob. We own and trust our lives to aliens, so yes.. we are looking for answers.
(I.. like ed, have 36)
Even a *pinch* of concern.. would have gone a long way with all of us I am sure.
He could of at least said that he is glad everyone was OK ? :shock:
:roll: *shaking head*
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csgambill
Jan 5, 2006, 7:01 AM
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Alright, from the perspective of a business owner CCH's response was not adequate relative to the severity of the issue. Many of us climbers, myself included, trust our lives with CCH's product. As we all know our gear is what physically separates us from life and death in a sport that is inherently dangerous. We want to know that we are purchasing a product that will eliminate as much of that inherent risk as possible. Basically, we want a product that will function as it is intended. Dave, you stated that the claims on this site leveled against your company are serious. You talk the talk, now walk the walk and show your customers that their lives matter to you. This situation has either the potential to be disastrous for your company, or if handled properly could result in an even greater windfall for you have already seen. CCH has many loyal customers who would stand fast through a manufacturing defect, so long as CCH displays the proper attitude and action. Your customers' concerns should be your concerns, and right now your customers have some serious concerns which you need to address to their satisfaction. I know that it is impossible to satisfy all the people all the time, but from the perspective of a fellow business owner I'll make a few suggestions in quelling the concerns of your customers with minimal financial hindrance to CCH.
Don't state that you believe this to be a hoax . It sounds far too much like you're trying to sweep the issue under the proverbial rug. I'm sure that if you have not already done so you are trying to identify if there is a problem to begin with, but you must let your customers know you're doing some internal auditing of your brazing procedures. I'm extremely good at my job, but even I make mistakes, your brazers are human and will also make an occasional mistake. If there is a problem figure out a solution that will improve the situation. The solution could be a very simple procedural change that barely effects anyone but results in massive improvements to your quality control. Finally, inform your consumers that you have investigated the problem and communicate the results of your findings with them.
I suggest that CCH offer to reimburse the owner of the cam in question for the cost of examination by a certified metallurgical lab. The lab should then post the results of their findings on the web in .pdf format on their letterhead. I can guarantee the cost of this examination will be far less than the revenue you stand to loose from mishandling the situation. If handled properly this situation could be a great marketing device, regardless of the results of the lab exam, in that it's a superb opportunity to let your customers know CCH is dedicated to making a quality product that will perform as intended.
Dave, you have a product that has, over the years, gained a very loyal base of supporters, but due to the speed at which information travels, via this site, word of mouth etc., you're running the risk of losing that base of support. You do have some strong competition. I hope for my own sake and the sake of other Alien users out there that CCH is producing a quality product. Regardless of whether or not this is a "hoax" you cannot treat it as such since the majority of people who know about this alleged defect do not believe it to be a hoax. If you mishandle this situation, this New Year may not be very happy for you.
-Chris
- I don't intend this post as a sales pitch, but if you're interested in my consulting services, PM me and we can discuss further.
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horseonwheels
Jan 5, 2006, 8:55 AM
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csgambill, you must be in marketing, and in a marketing perspective, what Dave said is about as ill-advised as it comes.
After thinking about buying another set of small cams, and originally deciding on them being Aliens based on previoius use of others', I've all but completely rejected Aliens at this point. We're not buying toilet paper here!!! If I make a poor decision there I might end up with an itchy asshole, which as bad as that is, I'm not going to die.
When a company (CCH) that makes life-saving equipment shows a complete lack of concern and interest in all customer complaints, not only would I look to CCH's competition, but I would take pleasure in seeing them lose business.
I like to buy products from companies that I respect and respect me as a customer. Not from morons that blame their customers for complaints, when they have had a recent history of product issues.
That said, I would still like to buy a set of Aliens, but that isn't going to happen unless the company takes a different attitude, fully stands behind their product, is humble enough to admit that they can potentially make mistakes, and address all concerns legitimately.
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healyje
Jan 5, 2006, 10:17 AM
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I'd like to reiterate that we are a small sport and need all the brave innovative souls we can get making cool gear. We particularly don't need another company going the down tube the way Chouinard did. Dave and CCH add to the diversity of gear that's available to us and at this point no one is talking about legal action - I think we as community just want to see a more consistent, rational, reasoned, and empathetic response to quality and service issues from CCH then we've seen of late. This CCH response from Dave is not that and again I hope he sees fit to reconsider his approach to both this customer and incident, but also to what are obvious and manifest issues with quality and service at CCH.
Dave,you have a lot of very loyal folks out here rooting for you and folks that want to buy more of your product (and hell, I personally paid a high premium for both sets of my hybrids). We're your customers, it might just be worth stepping back and considering treating us as well as most of us would like to continue treating you...
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reg
Jan 5, 2006, 2:11 PM
Post #43 of 246
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W0W! what an inconsiderate response from cch! even if this is a hoax - which i don't believe it is - cch has stuck their foot in it. i 've read elsewhere on this site that some folks believe that companies making climbing gear are more concerned about ethics than money. i never believed that and cch's response proves it to me. also this statement by clippedclimber:
"It is not that Dave does not care, he is just not big city/corporately polished. His head is in making you your beloved aliens, not fighting hypotheticals on the internet"
does not ring true in that davids response is that of a slick corporate dude not that of a caring manufacturer/climbers friend.
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reg
Jan 5, 2006, 2:14 PM
Post #44 of 246
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W0W! what an inconsiderate response from cch! even if this is a hoax - which i don't believe it is - cch has stuck their foot in it. i 've read elsewhere on this site that some folks believe that companies making climbing gear are more concerned about ethics than money. i never believed that and cch's response proves it to me. also this statement by clippedclimber:
"It is not that Dave does not care, he is just not big city/corporately polished. His head is in making you your beloved aliens, not fighting hypotheticals on the internet"
does not ring true in that davids response is that of a slick corporate dude not that of a caring manufacturer/climbers friend.
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reg
Jan 5, 2006, 2:15 PM
Post #45 of 246
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00PS! sorry bout posting twice! :oops:
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happiegrrrl
Jan 5, 2006, 2:20 PM
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I would like to ask the person with the cam problem - has he yet made telephone contact with CCH? Not has CCH called him - hs HE made contact?
It doesn't seem to me that CCH has an "RC.com representative who is monitoring this and the other thread and reporting back to HQ..... Whether any of us think they should, whether "we would if it were our business," is not relative.
I think that it is possible that the OP might have had a *better experience* if he had gotten on the phone and spoke directly. And there is still that opportunity. Again - it doesn't MATTER if any of us thinks the onus for customer service has now shifted to CCH. Unless, of course, what we really are interested in in the blather of an internet forum.....
What matters, I think anyway, is to come to a conclusion on the mechanical/design/manufacturing questions that have ben introduced, and that isn't going to happen over the internet.
I think the OP has to take some initiative on this one. Call Dave and speak to him.
I know that from my own business crap that email, though handy, can casue communciation problems. You'd think that not to be the case, but my experience tells me otherwise.
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dingus
Jan 5, 2006, 2:59 PM
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In reply to: It doesn't seem to me that CCH has an "RC.com representative who is monitoring this and the other thread and reporting back to HQ..... Whether any of us think they should, whether "we would if it were our business," is not relative.
Its entirely relevant when we walk into REI to make a cam purchase. This is a customer base. If a vendor wants to make a dismissive statement and then walk away, that is their right (and at least they're being consistent).
But to say that dismissal is not relevant? Relevancy will be reflected in the 2006 year end report I suspect.
DMT
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dingus
Jan 5, 2006, 3:03 PM
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In reply to: It doesn't seem to me that CCH has an "RC.com representative who is monitoring this and the other thread and reporting back to HQ..... Whether any of us think they should, whether "we would if it were our business," is not relative.
Its entirely relevant when we walk into REI to make a cam purchase. This is a customer base. If a vendor wants to make a dismissive statement and then walk away, that is their right (and at least they're being consistent).
But to say that dismissal is not relevant? Relevancy will be reflected in the 2006 year end report I suspect.
DMT
post edit - I reread your comment and noted where you said 'relative' not relevant. I'm not sure what you mean by relative so if I misunderstood I apologize (I tried to delete it but the U/I won't let me) Cheers
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shakylegs
Jan 5, 2006, 3:03 PM
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^^He did contact CCH.
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csgambill
Jan 5, 2006, 3:23 PM
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I've noticed that several people have contacted CCH. I'm curious to hear the results of your conversations. Please post! Thanks!
Also, since we're on the topic of hoaxes, can we validate that cchaliens actually represents CCH?
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